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View Full Version : Archaon vs. Greenskins... I think I'm gonna die



Stuffburger
26-08-2009, 02:53
So my friend is making rumblings about fielding archaon in a 2k game we've got coming up- which quite frankly scares me since, looking at his rules and statline I can't think of anything with even a chance of taking this guy down in the O&G list.

Any ideas? And am I allowed to bludgeon him if he puts archaon, banner of the gods, festus and the rapturous standard in the same unit?

Bauknefer
26-08-2009, 03:17
You are screwed. I ran that list against my friend who uses ork and gobbos and its destructive. If you gang up on him with heroes it may work. Tricksy trinket with amulet of protectyness works well. shooting him is almost a waste of time. kill him with CR by ganging up on him and using the heroes. force him to challenge the one with the amulet and have the tricksy trinket in base contact with him.

zeekill
26-08-2009, 03:20
Grimgor Ironhide stands a chance in a challenge (like he did in the fluff), especially if he gets to strike first. ASF, 7 attacks at WS8 S7 and rerollable hits and you have a 1+ Armor and 5+ Ward. Also take Goblin Shaman(s) that can cast Gork'll fix it on his unit and Orc shaman(s) that can cast Bash'em ladz on your unit. Then you get to strike first (and so does your entire unit) and he discards all 6's that he rolls for saves! If i remember i think Archaon has a 1+ armor, S7 brings that down to 5+, and since 6's count as 1's he only gets an armor save on the roll of an exact 5. This goes for your opponent's unit too. All 6's gone. Awesome. Not exactly my thing but it will most likely work.

In later games try filling up all of the points (minus maybe a shaman or two and a great shaman) with 5+ units of 20 Night goblins with spears and 5+ units of 20 Night goblins with bows and 3 fanatics in every unit. March up the spearmen untill you release all the fanatics. Your spearmen will die in combat but the sheer amount of Fanatics will be devastating, inflicting D6 S5 Armor piercing hits on the unit for every fanatic that passes through it. Once he breaks your ranks shoot like crazy (try to set up with 2 ranks of 10 bowmen in a line) at separate targets to wittle them down as much as possible (not so much with WoC but with other armies it works) then when he gets within 8" release all the fanatics from the bowmen. Sometimes things go amazingly right, other times horribly wrong, but it is the most fun game of warhammer you will ever play. When there are 20 balls of death randomly floating around the board you know youre having fun. And sooner or later you'll have the luck to decimate your opponent.

jax40kplyr1
26-08-2009, 03:57
Just remember that he's an expensive character all on his own - Grimgor would probably be the best to take him head on. Good luck on casting on his unit though as he has MR2 I believe, as well as being a Lvl2 sorcerer. Even if he has a basic knight unit with him, he's still looking at about 900 points in one unit. Goblin spear chukkas are great too - cheap and taken in large numbers. Fanatics work . . . with a 1+ and 3+ ward, he's pretty hard. But - not stubborn so whittle his knights down and beat him through combat res. Realistically the only way for him on his own to take on a ranked unit is to unleash his daemon sword, which theoretically should hit him once or twice.

ZigZagMan
26-08-2009, 04:09
Get him stuck in a challenge with a champion, and use grimgor to beat up on his unit. Try to win combat and run him down, easiest way.

Angelust
26-08-2009, 04:52
Archaon vs. Grimgor would depend on some lucky rolling by grimgor and some unlucky rolling by Archaon.

Grimgor hits on 4s, wounds on 3s, and Archaon would have a 6+ armor, 3+ ward save.

If you don't kill him, Archaon is coming back with 10 WS9, S5 hits, and all you'll get are 5+ ward saves. That, and Dorghar's 3 S5 attacks...



Also, if he's ever played O&G before, he'll just zip his warhounds at every goblin squad he sees, and he'll draw out your fanatics and cloud the field with them. Then Archaon and any knight unit around can zip between the gaps that the fanatics have created, can easily win combat on the charge, and will now be behind your lines, staring down spear-chuckas or whatever else you got in the back ranks, causing panic checks all over the place.


In my opinion, O&G have a tough fight against Chaos, because Chaos can basically bring a similar kind of list, but is tougher and hits harder.

I would suggest using skirmishers, shooting, and fast cav to your advantage. Block him so that he'll have to either charge you or restrain movement, pull him out of position, and then try to get flank charges. If Archaon comes out of a unit, lob bolts at him and hope he fails his 3+.

Alternatively, take a DoW Darkness caster, cast pit of shades on Archaon's unit, and hope he fails his initiative check. (I'm not sure if pit of shades is a spell that targets or not, so he may or may not get his MR2)

kardar233
26-08-2009, 05:23
Yes, Pit of Shades is a targeted spell, so he does get his MR2. Anyways, he's I7, so it's a 1/6 chance.

Actually, Grimgor would be hitting on 5+, as Archaeon's special Mark of Nurgle is a flat -1 to hit.

Angelust
26-08-2009, 06:02
Oh yeah, almost forgot. Hitting on 5s then.


On a funny note, I was playing a special scenario w/ my Skaven today, and I got to control Archaon for a turn (Don't ask, stupid scenario). Archaon came in, used 3 dice to cast Gateway, got a 15, and ended up doing 4 wounds on Thorgrim. It was hilarious. Then he charged a large unit of brettonian knights, and killed about 6 of them straight up. He's truly a beast!

PeG
26-08-2009, 06:36
Killing Blow would take care of him as well if he fails his ward. Dont know enough about the OnG list to see what units that would be able to do this.

bork da basher
26-08-2009, 07:00
grimgor or blind luck. to be honest archaon in a 2k game is really OTT. it's a game that will revolve around killing 1 mini and you'll win or loose by it. boring. fine to bring out once maybe but i wouldn't want to be playing him over n over.

just take an all night goblin army, 20 strong units, no upgrades and a single charecter lol, 3 fanatics each unit and mangle him with ball n chain goodness.

Kitskin
26-08-2009, 07:10
No need for Grimgor, take a goblin!

Goblin Warboss (tricksy trinket, iron gnasha's, amulet of protectyness, lucky's dirk)

Archaon is fairly likely to wound himself with no ward save, and you still have (his) 3+ ward save yourself. I imagine he has a ridiculous amount of magic items? So your weapon is powered through the roof and to top it off you have killing blow.
He has to challenge, you accept!

Other than that, fanatics, rock lobbers, doom divers, spear chucka's to take out the knights.

leighr3029
26-08-2009, 07:43
my tip is not to fight him. IŽd go for a flank charge on his unit. that way you negate archaonŽs ability to crush you to a pulp.

Loq-Gor
26-08-2009, 07:51
No need for Grimgor, take a goblin!

Goblin Warboss (tricksy trinket, iron gnasha's, amulet of protectyness, lucky's dirk)


This is a cool build and while it would be awesome, both the iron gnasha's and the tricksy trinket are enchanted items so you can only have one. However Archaon has four magic items (armor, sword, helm, eye) so a gobbo warboss will be S8 so Killing Blow is not strictly necessary. I would put in the spiteful shield instead. If Archaon unleashes the sword he would suffer two S5 hits for every 1 to hit. Throw in Gork'll Fix It and its two S5 hits for every 1 or 6 Archaon rolls to hit, plus no armor or ward saves against the gobbo's attacks. His MR will usually keep it from going off but still, it'll rock if and when it does.

Kitskin
26-08-2009, 07:55
This is a cool build and while it would be awesome, both the iron gnasha's and the tricksy trinket are enchanted items so you can only have one. However Archaon has four magic items (armor, sword, helm, eye) so a gobbo warboss will be S8 so Killing Blow is not strictly necessary. I would put in the spiteful shield instead. If Archaon unleashes the sword he would suffer two S5 hits for every 1 to hit. Throw in Gork'll Fix It and its two S5 hits for every 1 or 6 Archaon rolls to hit, plus no armor or ward saves against the gobbo's attacks. His MR will usually keep it from going off but still, it'll rock if and when it does.

Ah so it is, i didn't have the book to hand. Never really thought about using the shield, i guess without the ward save it has potential but he would still have a 3+ armour save versus it. Mind you, every penny counts!

Mullitron
26-08-2009, 08:33
Killing Blow would take care of him as well if he fails his ward. Dont know enough about the OnG list to see what units that would be able to do this.

Doesnt his armor prevent killing blow? Grimgor very powerful but i think even he will have to be quite lucky to beat archaon. I would suggest trying to ignore him and feed him units like night goblins with fanatics. You coud try and break him in combat but even if he is in a unit of knights it wont be a large one where you can kill lots to rack up kills against his score, not to mention hes pretty much a bsb so he will be able to reroll failed leadership tests.

He is the lord of the end of times so hes going to do alot of hurt to anything he touches, i would suggest just trying to control the situation so he touches things that hurt your army the least and if your lucky... hurt him.

Kayosiv
26-08-2009, 10:45
His armor grants him a 1+ armor save and makes it so 1's and 2's always fail to wound him no matter the strength of the attack, that's all.

He has no immunity to killing blow, although hitting him is pretty hard, and even if you roll a 6 he has a 2/3 chance to avoid it. Still, that doesn't really mean anything as he's almost impossible to hurt anyway, so it's still the best way to take him out.

The Red Scourge
26-08-2009, 11:07
Get him stuck in a challenge with a champion, and use grimgor to beat up on his unit. Try to win combat and run him down, easiest way.

Archie doesn't come with a unit, he's quite capable on his own, and any champion will be torn apart for +6CR. At most he has a BSB trudging around behind to make him stubborn just if he should lose.

Also Grimgor vs. Archie:

Grimgor strikes first:

A7 at WS8 vs. WS9 = 4+ to hit becoming 5+ = 2.31 hits.

S7 vs. T5 = 3+ to wound (Armor of Morkai) = 1.5246 wounds

S7 vs. AS1+ = 5+ save = 1.0062 wounds.

3+ Ward = 0,332 wounds

Wow! Grimgor is truly badass :evilgrin:

Archie strikes back:

A10 at WS9 vs. WS8 = 3+ to hit = 6.6666 hits

S5 vs. T5 = 3.3333 wounds.

Negate armor

5+ ward = 2.2222 wounds.

Horsie with the horrible name:

A3 at WS5 vs. WS8 = 4+ to hit = 1.5 hits.

S5 vs. T5 = 0.75 hits.

S5 vs. AS1+ = 0.25 wounds

5+ ward = 0.165 wounds.

Archie hits himself = 1.6667 times

S5 vs. T5 = 0.8888 wounds

Negate armor.

3+ ward = 0.2933 (so Grimgor is only marginally better than Archie at killing Archie) :cheese:

Result:

Archie: 2.3872 wounds
Grimgor: 0.332 wounds

Lets just say that Grimgor beat up Archie because Valten had softened him up a bit ;)

Gaargod
26-08-2009, 11:36
To be fair, Grimgor has hatred, so he gets a few more hits than that (4/9 chance of missing so 35/9 hits, or about 4).

The Goblin warboss on the other hand:
4 attacks
Hits on 5s = 4/3 hits
Wounds on 3s (he's S8 due to lucky dirk) = 8/9
6+ armour = 40/54 wounds
Which is still better than grimgor i admit

Archaon hitting back with daemon sword active, so 10 attacks
Hitting on 3s = 20/3 hits
Wounding on 3s = 40/9 wounds
3+ ward = 40/27 wounds

He'll also hit himself 10/6 times, each one doing 2 S5 hit = 20/6 S5 hits.
Wounding on 4s = 10/6 wounds
3+ armour = 10/18 wounds

Horsie:
Hitting on 4s = 1.5 hits
Wounding on 3s = 1 wound
3+ armour = 1/3 wound
3+ ward = 1/9 wounds

So in total:

Archaon takes 70/54 wounds = 1.30
Goblin takes 43/27 wounds = 1.59

Which is about as good as anyone (short of a bloodthirster with obsidian armour, stupid thing) is going to get against him. Especially considering the goblin costs 163pts with a wolf :D

Incidentally, Archaon does occasionally come with a unit. That is called a deathstar army, congratulations.

The Red Scourge
26-08-2009, 13:33
Thank you for that little correction - I've only once met greenskins on the battlefield, so I'm not that brushed up on them ;)

Bauknefer
26-08-2009, 16:41
Archaon will be forced to declare challenges use that against him. Take the challenge on a champion. charge him with a goblin with tricksy trinket and beat him over the head with grimgor. that should work

xsamx
26-08-2009, 18:38
Another tactic that i would hate (i field archaon myself) , is if you get a MASSIVE amount of units of gobbo's and try to just bog him down. If you throw enough gobbo's at him, then eventually he will kill himself with his own sword! Use this in combination with the techniques listed above and i reckon you could down him. Alternatively, if he is going to field Archaon with Festus in the same unit, then just AVOID them, as they will be M4, and if he charges archaon out of the unit, then you should be able to beat him on CR or, as i say, force him to kill himself/challenge him with the tricksy trinket gobbo!

Tarian
26-08-2009, 20:43
If it's just Gobbos, I'm not sure why Archaon would bother unleashing the sword...

GenerationTerrorist
26-08-2009, 20:58
Incidentally, Archaon does occasionally come with a unit. That is called a deathstar army, congratulations.

To be accurate, if Archaon is included in the army, then he has to take a unit of Knights. Only he can can join that unit and no other characters. Doesn't mean that he will necessarily be in that unit the whole game, however.

Dexter099
27-08-2009, 00:55
The problem with Archaon is that he can't attack very well. Sure, 10 attacks that ignore armor, but still, only S5.

Witchblade
27-08-2009, 02:28
The problem with Archaon is that he can't attack very well. Sure, 10 attacks that ignore armor, but still, only S5.
Do you also think hydras can't attack very well? :confused:

He's a nigh unkillable L2 sorcerer that unleashes 13 S5 attacks per turn. Terror is also a real pain for greenskins.

Avoid him, feed him cheap stuff or challenge him and somehow win by CR. The tricksy goblin will definitely stall him for a while in a challenge.

jax40kplyr1
27-08-2009, 04:22
If Archaon wants to unleash his daemonic sword - let him! Any 1s that he rolls to hit will hit himself, wounding on 4s with no armor save. Plus once he does it, he has to continue to do so in every CC. Couple of fanatics, a couple large blocks of cheap infantry - think he'll take care of himself. Kind of like the Chaos Daemonsword for Warriors of Chaos.

kardar233
27-08-2009, 05:38
Except large blocks of cheap infantry will generally do a grand total of nothing, even when he's unleashed U'zuhl, as the 13 S5 attacks he'll be dealing out will overwhelm the rank+outnumber bonus and then you auto-break because of Terror.

Scythe
27-08-2009, 07:24
If it's just Gobbos, I'm not sure why Archaon would bother unleashing the sword...

To win combat reliably if on his own? Without the sword activated, he kills 4.44 gobbos on average (including steed). Against full ranks, outnumbering and full command he would need 6 kills to win combat, hence he needs the sword to be safe.

On the filp side, once he wins, the gobbos will probably break, unless supported by a Ld9 general and the battle standard (Archaon will be winning combat with 2-3 pts difference most likely, by scoring 7.22 wounds on average).


Except large blocks of cheap infantry will generally do a grand total of nothing, even when he's unleashed U'zuhl, as the 13 S5 attacks he'll be dealing out will overwhelm the rank+outnumber bonus and then you auto-break because of Terror.

You don't auto-break because of terror. Terror has no such rule. The auto-break through fear rule is in effect, but only if Archaon outnumbers (which he won't, except against lone characters on foot who somehow survive his attacks; a point to keep in mind if you are running a speculum wizard to take him down).

Memnos
27-08-2009, 09:20
If Archaon wants to unleash his daemonic sword - let him! Any 1s that he rolls to hit will hit himself, wounding on 4s with no armor save. Plus once he does it, he has to continue to do so in every CC. Couple of fanatics, a couple large blocks of cheap infantry - think he'll take care of himself. Kind of like the Chaos Daemonsword for Warriors of Chaos.

Archaon has a 3+ ward save.

That means 1/6 will hit himself.

1/2 of those will wound.

2/3rds of those will be ignored.

That means, on average, he needs to roll 36 dice to cause a single wound. If he's in combat every turn from turn 2-6, that's still only 100 dice of attack. He needs 108 dice on average to kill himself.

And if he isn't in combat for even a single one of those turns, the odds drop by 10 dice.