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Mabbz101
27-08-2009, 11:08
Are Deamon Princes worth it in 2k+ Warriors list?

Avian
27-08-2009, 11:37
Plenty of people use lvl 4s with the Mark and Tendrils of Tzeentch.

shredshredxx
27-08-2009, 18:57
daemon princes are nerver worth it.

ever.









seriously. ever.

Harwammer
27-08-2009, 19:28
daemon princes are nerver worth it.

ever.









seriously. ever.

Wrong. They're worth it against orcs.

Mullitron
27-08-2009, 19:39
daemon princes are nerver worth it.

ever.


seriously. ever.

lol a little harsh, their not that bad (well imop). As already said the most popular choice for the prince is mark of tzeentch as it gives access to a great lore and improves its ward save to 4+. Mark of nurgle is also sometimes taken as it is also a great lore. The problem is the chaos gifts are few in number and they dont really give anything to the prince to compare with the melee prowess of the mortal heroes. Theres little point in going for a prince for close combat (well iam not aware of any successfull attempts so far) their expensive compared with the mortal heroes and are worse in combat. However they can be level four casters who fly around causing terror and as already said have access to some great lores. The tendrils of tzeentch which is unique to the prince can be useful and allows them to throw 5 power dice at casting gateway with less fear of miscasting whilst helping with magic defense.The problem is alot of what they can do, a sorcorer can do for alot less points and have a 3+ ward save vs shooting. Its not as much that the prince is bad, its just that with no access to magic items and few great gifts of chaos to choose from for their points cost they find it hard to compete with the mortal lord choices. Tho they are cool and the belakor model is very pretty.

Kayosiv
27-08-2009, 19:43
Demon princes seem like an enormous flaw in the design system.

In the fluff, everybody starts off as a marauder.

If you please the gods, you become a Chaos warrior. If you continue to successfully enact the will of your masters, you will become a Chosen. Those who fail from there become a forsaken. If you prove resilient enough to contain the power of Choas, you become and aspiring Champion. If you fail here, you become a spawn, and if you succeed where so many fail, you become a Chaos Lord.

Now the next logical step is to become a Demon Prince, an immortal being of awesome power. However, Demon princes aren't even as good as Chaos Lords! Let's look at the pro's and cons.

Advantages over a Chaos Lord.
Flight: That's pretty awesome, flight with no steed, worth about 30 points.
Terror: Amazing! Terror usually runs about 50 points.
5+ Ward: A free 5+ ward save, sweet! That runs 30 points usually.
Stubborn: An impressive leadership 8 stubborn means combat resolution is never an issue for your lord, you fight with him where he is needed and don't worry about.
An Extra wound: Demon princes have 4 wounds, extra wounds usually run about 50 points.
He can become up to a level 4 Wizard for a mere 160 points. To put that into perspective, a Chaos Sorcerer Lord with that kind of magic potency is 270 points, and 2 Chaos Sorceress cost 240, what a bargain! Plus, he has the combat stats of Chaos Lord anyway, so it's like getting TWO LORDS in one, but at a reduced cost of over 100 points, that rocks.


Now all those things are pretty cool, and seem like they easily make him worth the 90-270 point upgrade over a Chaos Lord, but you have to consider his disadvantages as well, and they are numerous and crippling.

Leadership 8: Sure being Stubborn is awesome for him, but what about the rest of your army? Part of the generel's purpose is to confer superior leadership to nearby troops. Most Chaos units have leadership 8 already, so this doesn't help much, and obviously the ones that it does help, 9 would be better than 8.
Unit strength 3: This guy can't break ranks, get bonus' for flank or rear charges. On the plus side, he is immune to killing blow.
NO ARMOR: That's right, this guy has ZIP for armor, meaning his +1 extra wound will offer him likely far less survivability then an actual save.
CANT JOIN UNITS: Wow... this REALLY hurts his viability. As your army's general, he is going to be extremely vulnerable to shooting of all kinds.
No Magic items: His stats are good, but that's all he's got. He has no cool effects or defenses based on magical equipment, he's all numbers.
NO MUNDANE ITEMS: This one is bad. Sure his stats are good, but they don't seem very good when compared to a Lord with a simple Great Weapon.
Demonic Gifts suck: That's right, there are some nice ones, but for the most part, demonic gifts are bad, and even the ones that aren't bad pale in comparison to the magic items that the Demon prince isn't allowed to take.

The biggest on this list are in all capitals, but all of them hurt Demon Princes. If there were some decent Demonic Gifts, or they were allowed to take magic items (perhaps have their own list of magic items similar to demons of chaos) they might be alright. But the fact is, they aren't as good in combat even compared to a simple exalted champion because of their inability to take equipment, and their lack of armor save and inability to join units makes them an enormous target and liability on the battlefield.

Harwammer
27-08-2009, 20:12
Leadership 8: Sure being Stubborn is awesome for him, but what about the rest of your army? Part of the generel's purpose is to confer superior leadership to nearby troops. Most Chaos units have leadership 8 already, so this doesn't help much, and obviously the ones that it does help, 9 would be better than 8.

CANT JOIN UNITS: Wow... this REALLY hurts his viability. As your army's general, he is going to be extremely vulnerable to shooting of all kinds.


I don't see why you complain about Ld 8 then go on about what a crud general it makes... never thought to make one of your heroes general?

Regarding the lord being better than the DP in game, despite fluff.... well I guess there are out of game benefits (immortality, being worshiped as a deity, generations of followers, blah, blah, blah)

Von Wibble
27-08-2009, 21:36
Imo, the Daemon prince would be a lot better with just two small rule changes.

1) Allow him to spend up to 100 points on daemonic gifts and/or magic weapons from the common items and chaos list.

2) Since the Daemon Prince has already elevated as far as he can go, he feels no need to challenge everyone going to earn the god's favour. The Daemon Prince doesn't have to issue challenges.

Kayosiv
27-08-2009, 22:15
I don't see why you complain about Ld 8 then go on about what a crud general it makes... never thought to make one of your heroes general?

I don't get what you're asking me here. Chaos Lords have leadership 9, Demon princes have leadership 8. 9 is greater than 8. 8 is fine, 9 is better. For the purpose of break tests, leadership 9 is always equal to or worse than leadership 9, but for the purposes of granting leadership to your army a stubborn 8 isn't as good.

Leadership 8 doesn't make a crud general, but it's not as good as 9, and I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with making any of my heroes a general.

pointyteeth
27-08-2009, 23:02
@ Kayosiv - also, they don't have the eye of the god rule which, while seldom worthwile, would give him a small benefit for being forced to challenge. Good rundown on the pro's & con's btw.

PARTYCHICORITA
27-08-2009, 23:45
Ld8 stuborn still has a more than decent chance of failing. I wouldn't rely on it.

Roark
28-08-2009, 03:50
Yeah, I have to say, the only worthwhile thing about taking a Daemon Prince is Tendrils, and that's just for the Gateway FTW "strategy".

Still, I got one purely because of the fluff and because the Be'lakor model rocks.

limkopi
28-08-2009, 04:07
@Kayosiv

WoC heroes are all Ld 8, meaning that you do not have to choose the Daemon Prince to be your general. This spreads out your points so that the loss of the prince would not cost as much.

Harwammer
28-08-2009, 06:31
@Kayosiv: What limkopi said.

Also, if DP was Ld9 it would be forced to be general. This means it would be flying around, outside of range from the hounds and marauders.

Since the DP is Ld 8 you can make one of your heroes general. This model can then use the general's radius to babysit the hounds and marauders, allowing them to do their job better and letting the DP get on with his own thing.

I often find myself using my sorcereor with puppet/eShield/steed as general because of this.

Enigmatik1
28-08-2009, 15:43
Did anyone ever get any justification/explanation as to why the DoC DP may take items while the WoC one may not?

I like the idea of the 100 points on gifts AND items. I think that would make DPs infinitely better at serving their purpose.

mr_vespa
28-08-2009, 15:54
Even in the last ed. of WoC (Hordes of Chaos), Daemon Princes were bound to Daemonic Gifts. In the DoC book, they are still referred as such, while they take the name of Gifts of Chaos in the WoC.

Personally, I don't think there's much of an issue here, considering the DoC Prince is simply outclassed by the WoC Prince. The WoC Prince does not suffer from the Daemonic Rule (hence will not blow up from CR), gets Terror, Fly and Stubborn off the bat (and without spending any points on Gifts, as opposed to the DoC Prince who only causes Fear) and has access to 25 more points of Gifts than his DoC alter-ego. Also consider the WoC Prince may be upgraded to a level 4 Wizard, whereas a DoC Prince caps out at level 2.

Allowing a WoC Prince to gear up on magic items would be borderline beardy. Crown of Everlasting Glory and Chaos Runesword alone would turn him into a nigh unstoppable terror.

I'll agree to the fact that the Gifts listed in the DoC book are immensely more powerful and varied than the ones listed in the WoC book, but they are better used by Heralds and Greater Daemons. DoC Princes, IMO, should be left on the shelves.

Mabbz101
28-08-2009, 16:11
For my needs i think the flying Level 4 terror causer works well. Ive used him with tendrils and MoT as a support unit for one of my Warriors unit. I think the fact that the DP cant take magc equipment means that there will be few of them on the tournament scene. Its a shame because having magic weapons would be accurate from a Fluff PoV.

Kayosiv
28-08-2009, 17:51
@Kayosiv: What limkopi said.

Also, if DP was Ld9 it would be forced to be general. This means it would be flying around, outside of range from the hounds and marauders.

Since the DP is Ld 8 you can make one of your heroes general. This model can then use the general's radius to babysit the hounds and marauders, allowing them to do their job better and letting the DP get on with his own thing.

I often find myself using my sorcereor with puppet/eShield/steed as general because of this.

GOTCHA. Thanks for the explanation I was just totally not following that.

and @ mr vespa: I'm not sure giving him the same magic items as a Chaos Lord would make him broken, after all, their stats are identical. If it would make Demon Princes broken, you are basically arguing they make any Choas Lord on a Manticore Broken.


However, herein lines the problem.

1. He cannot join units
2. This means he is going to be shot at.
3. He is woth a LOT of points, so if he dies, it is very bad.
4. He cannot wear armor
5. The Demonic Gift that protects him from shooting basically takes up all his demonic gift alotment, so while he's not vulnerable he gets no cool abilities.
6. He is offensivly (in combat at least, not magic) weaker then an even moderately decked out Choas Lord.

Enigmatik1
28-08-2009, 18:25
My apologies, I mistakenly thought that DoC DPs could take items (probably getting them confused with GDs).

At any rate, I have nearly enough WoC models (they were given to me) to make a 2K side army. I really want to run a Level 4 Slaaneshi DP w/ Diabolic Splendor but for the point investment (roughly 500 points iirc) it makes list creation very difficult (for me, at least). I'm having a hard time justifying spending that many points on a relatively soft model when I could get a Sorcerer Lord and BSB for roughly the same point cost and neither of them would be anywhere near as soft.

This makes me sad.

Edit: At least let the guy take mundane items and maybe an Ensorcelled Weapon as purchasable upgrades and I'd be all over him.

Angelust
28-08-2009, 18:50
I guess when you become a daemon prince, they make you strip naked and give you a 5+ ward.

What's sad is that a Chaos Lord can have 100 pts of items AND 50 pts of gifts, whereas the DP can only get 100 pts of gifts. It would have been a good balance, I think, to allow the DP 50 pts of items to create some symmetry and combat effectiveness. Take some cheap enchanted chaos armor and a sword of might, and problem solved!

Kayosiv
28-08-2009, 20:18
Not even that.

If the guy could take MUNDANE Chaos armor and a MUNDANE shield he would be infinitely more playable than he is now.

A 3+ Armor save is about as good as a 5+ ward save, specific situations will make this vary of course, but in general, they are equalish protection against most things.

I really think Demon princes needed either similar stats to a dragon, ie toughness 6 strength 6 with scaley skin, or just need to take Mundane Equipment. Even Shaggoth's are smart enough to wear armor (albeit light armor), so why isn't the Prince.

If they were packing some sort of crazy 3+ ward save it would be different, but a 5+ is only average and is only going to save 1-2 wounds if probability is acting normal.

Zilverug
28-08-2009, 22:41
2) Since the Daemon Prince has already elevated as far as he can go, he feels no need to challenge everyone going to earn the god's favour. The Daemon Prince doesn't have to issue challenges.

Your wish has been granted in my rule book.
They do not have the Eye of the Gods on them, for some reason.

Latro
29-08-2009, 06:01
So far I have no complaints about the performance of my Daemon Prince of Nurgle. My opponents are not so happy about him though ;)

Rough 2k line-up:


Daemon prince of Nurgle, lvl 2
- the -1 ld power and the roar

2 Nurgle Sorcerers, lvl 1
- the puppet

1 Nurgle BSB
- the -1 ld flag

2 large Warriors of Nurgle blocks
lots of Warhounds

2 Spawns
Hellcannon

At first the Prince simply helps with buboe-sniping and hunts down fast support units that try to interfere while the Hellcannon bombards enemy lines. Once there's an opening ... -2 ld terrorbomb.

You only need to look past the general-must-fight-in-front-rank idea and suddenly he's not so bad at all.


:cool:

Kayosiv
29-08-2009, 07:09
How does he fair against enemy artillery and shooting?

Latro
29-08-2009, 07:20
How does he fair against enemy artillery and shooting?

Just fine ... if you know what you're doing of course.

As long as the enemy lines are intact I keep him out of sight from artillery, heavy concentrated magic or shooting ... and his natural defences are enough to ignore the small stuff. Usually he'll be hunting small stuff (cavalry, fast cavalry, scouts etc etc) around the flanks and Buboe-snipe targets of opportunity.

As soon as the psychological bombardement has effect and there's a gap for him, he'll pounce into enemy lines and spread his terror at a lovely -2 ld ... and that hurts ... a lot.


:cool:

Von Wibble
29-08-2009, 10:36
Your wish has been granted in my rule book.
They do not have the Eye of the Gods on them, for some reason.

Yes, for some reason I though the must challenge rule was seperate to the gifts table, so the Prince got the drawback but not the benefit.

My other preference - allowing a Daemon prince their pick of any weapon available to a chaos lord, magic or mundane, however....not in the rulebook.

Latro, or indeed anyone else - how would you make a Daemon Prince of Khorne work?

Enigmatik1
29-08-2009, 16:44
You only need to look past the general-must-fight-in-front-rank idea and suddenly he's not so bad at all.


:cool:

I really don't think he's terrible, I just think he's too expensive. The Slaaneshi one I keep trying to build a list around is on the wrong side of 500 points. That's an awful lot in a 2K game, especially considering my normal opponents are ALWAYS shooting/magic heavy. The only Chaos God that interests me is Slaanesh (Nurgle to a lesser extent but nowhere near as much).

I keep trying to come up with a "Decadent Decay" list to run, but it's proving to be very difficult because I'm hell-bent (no pun intended) on using a DP as my main caster. Admittedly, this is primarily because I LOVE the Belakor model.

Mullitron
29-08-2009, 17:29
I really don't think he's terrible, I just think he's too expensive. The Slaaneshi one I keep trying to build a list around is on the wrong side of 500 points. That's an awful lot in a 2K game, especially considering my normal opponents are ALWAYS shooting/magic heavy. The only Chaos God that interests me is Slaanesh (Nurgle to a lesser extent but nowhere near as much).

I keep trying to come up with a "Decadent Decay" list to run, but it's proving to be very difficult because I'm hell-bent (no pun intended) on using a DP as my main caster. Admittedly, this is primarily because I LOVE the Belakor model.

Well i would just go for terror bomb if i was going mark of slaanesh, give the prince diabolic splendor and take a bsb with doom totem. Slaanesh is considered slightly weaker than the other two lores but still useful and works well with the totem and gift. Quite a few of the spells dont need a line of sight and you can keep your prince out of harms way whilst casting spells and then come out later when the threats have been dealt with.

PARTYCHICORITA
30-08-2009, 00:47
So far I have no complaints about the performance of my Daemon Prince of Nurgle.


Why nurgle? im guessing fluff reasons but still wanna ask to be sure.

Enigmatik1
30-08-2009, 02:25
Well i would just go for terror bomb if i was going mark of slaanesh, give the prince diabolic splendor and take a bsb with doom totem. Slaanesh is considered slightly weaker than the other two lores but still useful and works well with the totem and gift. Quite a few of the spells dont need a line of sight and you can keep your prince out of harms way whilst casting spells and then come out later when the threats have been dealt with.

Pretty much.

I don't have to deal with ItP armies (unless I play my own TK army ;)). I enjoy meta-gaming and screwing with the normal rules in most of the games I play. So naturally, the Lore of Slaanesh is very appealing to me for that reason. Even rarely used weapons like the Whip of Subversion or Rapier of Ecstacy appeal to my inner meta-gaming instincts...as does the Glaive of Putrefication. I don't want a full blown Daemon terror bomb (because Daemons are just NO)...but just enough of the threat of screwing with the minds of my enemies that they'll be lulled into making mistakes that my other units can take advantage of.

Panzer MkIV
30-08-2009, 02:56
Latro, or indeed anyone else - how would you make a Daemon Prince of Khorne work?

Without acces to a way to enhance it combat potential due to an inability to take magic weaponry, a total lack of cc gifts and unable to become a wizard (for the Flaming sword of Ruin in the Fire Lore) I'd say you can't.

Just stay clear of Khorne Deamon Princes IMO

Ah, I long for the good old days with Khorne DP carrying the Axe of Khorne, The Armour of Khorne and the Might of Khorne

"Looks back misty eyed"

SilverWarlock
30-08-2009, 04:25
the thing I find stupid is from a fluff perspective the Ld 8 vs Ld 9 Lord.

I mean, the Lord attains daemonhood an and suddenly his followers go "You know, I'm less inclined to follow your orders now that you are an immortal servant of the gods I worship".

I used to use a demon prince (and they were weaker) because I needed a lvl 4 slaaneshi character who could destroy heavy cavalry units (which were usually frenzied by the aforementioned magic).

Also, flying terror causers are great. Just make sure you play him like a lvl 4 on a weak flying mount, not like a warrior lord on dragon (his combat abilities are wonderful for killing support units and artillery, not for hitting R&F). Having a relatively solid level 4 flying terror causer is great, the DP should however be compared to a sorceror lord and not to the normal lord.

orlanth1000
30-08-2009, 04:38
does anyone know why they are so under powered for their points cost, having no access to magic items seems really strange?

Latro
30-08-2009, 05:11
Why nurgle? im guessing fluff reasons but still wanna ask to be sure.

The main reason is indeed for fluff. Previous edition I played a Khornate cavalry army and now I want something different ... so it's going to be Nurgle infantry!

That said, Nurgle also has good synergy with the theme and strategy I'm going for. Solo-flying Daemon Princes and slow marching infantry really benefit from the -1 to hit v. shooting and Nurgle magic is very nasty ... even when going relatively magic-light.

With just a lvl 2 Prince en two lvl 1 sorcerers I still have enough dice to fire three 2d6 Buboes at the enemy each magic phase ... and they have proven to be damn hard to stop. Scrolls simply don't work to stop that many spells and unlike regular magic-phases, here there are no low-threat spells they can afford to let go. So even magic-heavy armies struggle against it.

... and then there's the Puppet. :skull:

So far I have won magical duels against a Tzeench Beast Horde and a High Elf heavy-magic army. Nurgle for the win!


:cool:

pfishy98
30-08-2009, 05:34
somehow the DoC daemon prince is Daemonic, but the WoC isnt. WTF? a big blooper on GW IMHO.

Latro
30-08-2009, 05:45
Latro, or indeed anyone else - how would you make a Daemon Prince of Khorne work?

Uhm ... not :( ... they kinda suck this edition.

If you do want to use one for fluff reasons (which still are the best reasons to field anything IMHO), I would try something like this:

Daemon Prince of Khorne
- Diabolic Splendour (offensive and defensive advantage)
- Fury of the Blood God (magic defense)

Make sure you have a fast and agressive army to support him. On his own he'll be a prime target, coming from behind a wave of charging cavalry he'll be one of many targets.

First wave: lots of Khornate Marauder Cavalry units with flails
Second wave: several Khornate Chaos Knight units + Daemon Prince

Make sure to deploy him in a spot where he can't be lured if you go second. First turn everything advances, second turn the surviving Marauders charge with possibly the Prince in a supporting charge, third turn the rest charges.

Blood for the Blood God!


:evilgrin:

Avian
30-08-2009, 11:48
Ah, I long for the good old days with Khorne DP carrying the Axe of Khorne, The Armour of Khorne and the Might of Khorne

"Looks back misty eyed"
In a tournament in 5th edition, two Khornate Daemon Princes (back when they had 10 attacks each) killed my entire greenskin army in just a few turns. :(

GenerationTerrorist
31-08-2009, 21:02
The only DP I have ever managed to make work remotely is....

MoT
Lvl4
Tendrils
Conjoined
Fury

But at 600pts, I'd rather run my Lvl4 on Disc. Atleast he has an armour save.

Latro
01-09-2009, 05:20
@latro:

rot glorious rot must be really nice combined with flying!

Oh it is ... it is :evilgrin:

I only keep that spell if I'm using a lvl 3 caster though, 12+ is a bit too much for a lvl 2. Nurgle is such a great lore, no spell is ever a waste.


:cool:

Bauknefer
01-09-2009, 13:56
I think if a player was brave enough to field a Khorne DP because of fluff I think I would let him win.... If a player wants to make that kind of sacrifice for the sake of fluff..*wipes eyes* It would just get me every time. But apart from that I think you can make a decent flank hitter but nothing spectacular Fury of the Blood God with Diabolic or no Diabolic and take the one that reduces the strength of the shooting against you then your t5 will be your armor because the shooting you need to look out for blows through armor anyway. then you are looking at a 395pt frenzied lord with I think 6 str 5 attacks and causes terror and flies. Eh it would be OK but I wouldnt do it

Izram
01-09-2009, 16:08
I miss the exalted daemon. He has disappeared from both demons and warriors. I liked having a flying demon character who was "OK" but not like a dragon or anything whilst still being allowed to have a normal lord. I hate having to forsake taking a chaos lord in order to have a demon, especially if the demon is a pariah of the army anyways.

serpentus
02-09-2009, 23:36
I have been using my DP quite a lot in 2250pt battles, granted I do prefer to play friendlier middle class lists and havn’t played all mounted ever. And im happy with how he performed in pretty much each battle.

And I think that the gifts he has available are quite good and fun to use.

My common setup:

Daemon prince
Mark of Tz
Lvl 1 (yes just Lvl1, flickering fire is good enough imo, I try to get him into combat fast anyway)
Diabolic splendour
Fury of the blood god
Acid ichor (fun and cheap little gift, + it’s a nice surprise)

For 425 pt so not “that” bad….

And earlier today I played him with word of agony instead of Diabolic splendor for more close combat surprises.

b.t.w I run bloodcurdling roar on a sorc.

Hes pretty though, just keep him away from mass shooting.
But I agree that stubborn Ld 8 isnt that great… when you lose a combat there’s a pretty high chance he’ll run or ummm fly away.

But on the plus side I like how flexible and fast a DP is and his combat profile is pretty good.

My 2 cents

jospoon
27-11-2009, 03:56
Can the Tendrils of Tzeentch used to re-roll opponent's power or dispell dice?

Harwammer
27-11-2009, 07:08
In warhammer reroll means you roll a dice a second time.

How can you reroll it if you never rolled it to begin with?

Mullitron
27-11-2009, 07:34
In warhammer reroll means you roll a dice a second time.

How can you reroll it if you never rolled it to begin with?

Well you didnt roll it to begin with, your opponent did. You are rerolling the enemies roll. There are other items and effects that can make an enemy reroll dice. This gift simply allows one dice per player turn to be rerolled from your own or opponents power or dispel dice rolls. This may cause you or your opponent to avoid or cause a miscst or irresistable force. Well thats how ive seen it played.

Avian
27-11-2009, 09:00
You can't re-roll what you don't roll in the first place. It's really not more complicated than that. If you have seen it played otherwise you have seen it played wrong.

jospoon
28-11-2009, 00:14
thanks guys! :D

Johnnyfrej
28-11-2009, 05:29
The reason you don't take a Khorne DP is because Valkia does the same job, for roughtly the same ammount of points, so much better. Her only downside is no ward save and no magic defense. But hey, GW didn't listen to my advice and prevent Phil from writting crappy books :(