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Nell2ThaIzzay
11-01-2006, 22:23
I don't play Bretonnians, but I played against a Bret opponent last night who used the Green Knight.

Because I don't play Brets myself, I don't know the exact wording on his teleport rule, but according to the player, it is something like "At any point during the game, the Green Knight can teleport during his movement phase", and I guess he can only teleport to an area within 6" of natural terrain.

Well here's the example of what happened last night.

I'm Vampire Counts. He uses some ability on around turn 2 or so that makes the Green Knight appear in the game from any table edge. His Knight comes right behind my lines. So I summon a regiment of skeletons behind my line to charge his Knight, to tie it up until my units can get away. I make the charge.

On his turn, he tries to teleport his Knight out of the combat, to put it in a new position to charge my guys. I say no, because the rules state that a character who is engaged in combat can never leave combat. And the Green Knight's rules didn't state anything about being able to leave combat. (In a similar, though slightly different example, characters in the back of a unit may never leave the unit if the unit is engaged in combat. However, the Skaven "Lead from the back" rule states specifically that a character leading from the back may leave the unit if it is engaged in close combat)

There were 2 other players besides myself and my opponent at the Games Workshop where I was playing the game who agreed with me, stating that the rules would have to specifically state that the Green Knight could leave combat.

The manager at GW, however, made the ruling that the Knight could. However, this person has been wrong on rulings in the past, on top of the fact that he himself said he didn't know the rule, and made the ruling based on the backstory of the Green Knight (which I think is ridiculous, because the backstory of the Black Coach says it can move w/o the nightmares pulling it, but there is still no way to kill off just the nightmares).

Though this opponent is someone I won't play often, I do have a friend who is building a Bret army who I will be playing regularly, so it will be good to know the actual ruling on this, in case it comes up again in the future.

Thanks in advance.

Griefbringer
11-01-2006, 22:42
Lesson number 1: Never trust a GW redshirt or store manager.

Lesson number 2: When brought to the table (Green Knight is not deployed normally), Green Knight has to be deployed on a piece of "natural" terrain - he cannot just be deployed on a table edge unless there is suitable terrain there.

Lesson number 3: As for the rules for the Green Knight disappearing, they are as follows:

"During the game, the Green Knight may disappear at will and reappear in another location completely. If the Green Knight is within (or moves into) a "natural" piece of scenery during the Remaining Moves phase, then he may instantly be removed from the table and replaced anywhere on the table within another "natural" piece of terrain, facing in any direction. He may not move any further that turn. Note that he still may not end his move within impassable terrain."

Major Defense
12-01-2006, 03:33
I don't play Bretonnians, but I played against a Bret opponent last night who used the Green Knight.

Because I don't play Brets myself, I don't know the exact wording on his teleport rule, but according to the player, it is something like "At any point during the game, the Green Knight can teleport during his movement phase", and I guess he can only teleport to an area within 6" of natural terrain.

Well here's the example of what happened last night.

I'm Vampire Counts. He uses some ability on around turn 2 or so that makes the Green Knight appear in the game from any table edge. His Knight comes right behind my lines. So I summon a regiment of skeletons behind my line to charge his Knight, to tie it up until my units can get away. I make the charge.

On his turn, he tries to teleport his Knight out of the combat, to put it in a new position to charge my guys. I say no, because the rules state that a character who is engaged in combat can never leave combat. And the Green Knight's rules didn't state anything about being able to leave combat. (In a similar, though slightly different example, characters in the back of a unit may never leave the unit if the unit is engaged in combat. However, the Skaven "Lead from the back" rule states specifically that a character leading from the back may leave the unit if it is engaged in close combat)

There were 2 other players besides myself and my opponent at the Games Workshop where I was playing the game who agreed with me, stating that the rules would have to specifically state that the Green Knight could leave combat.

The manager at GW, however, made the ruling that the Knight could. However, this person has been wrong on rulings in the past, on top of the fact that he himself said he didn't know the rule, and made the ruling based on the backstory of the Green Knight (which I think is ridiculous, because the backstory of the Black Coach says it can move w/o the nightmares pulling it, but there is still no way to kill off just the nightmares).

Though this opponent is someone I won't play often, I do have a friend who is building a Bret army who I will be playing regularly, so it will be good to know the actual ruling on this, in case it comes up again in the future.

Thanks in advance.


That is exactly why playing at a store sucks so much ass. That and the no beer and hookers thing.

Nell2ThaIzzay
12-01-2006, 08:52
"During the game, the Green Knight may disappear at will and reappear in another location completely. If the Green Knight is within (or moves into) a "natural" piece of scenery during the Remaining Moves phase, then he may instantly be removed from the table and replaced anywhere on the table within another "natural" piece of terrain, facing in any direction. He may not move any further that turn. Note that he still may not end his move within impassable terrain."

Okay, then that would mean that the teleport was illegal, but because he was not in natural terrain. The player told me he could do it within 6" of natural terrain (which he was, that is where he placed his Green Knight, saying he could put him into play 6" from natural terrain) but it states nothing about combat. Which is why I think he wouldn't be allowed to teleport out of combat, as the rules state (and I don't have the book on me to quote) that a unit may never leave combat (unless forced through fleeing or something)

Flame
12-01-2006, 09:40
I would say he could leave combat (due to the at will bit), but only if he were in difficult terrain, which he wasn't.

Borthcollective
12-01-2006, 13:50
I don't think that you can reappear at the same piece of terrain. You also must move into the terrain as mentioned and as HtH does not have any movement, I would say no.

Griefbringer
12-01-2006, 14:01
I found the relevant part in BRB at last (page 66, first paragraph):

"Once engaged in close combat, units cannot move or shoot missile weapons, they must stand toe-to-toe with their enemy until one side is destroyed or forced to flee."

To analyze the situation:

-Once in close combat, unit cannot move or shoot.
-Can they do other actions? From magic rules we know they can cast spells, and from close combat rules we know they can fight in close combat.
-I would presume that also all other activities that are not explicitly forbidden are allowed while in close combat.
-Which leads to the question, is being "removed and replaced" on movement (it takes part in the remaining moves phase, but follows none of the usual rules for movement) in which case it would not be allowed, or something completely different, in which case it would be allowed.

Festus
12-01-2006, 14:16
Hi

I'd say the GK may teleport out of combat, as this is not Movement per se.

I don' quite remember the other instance(s) of teleportation, but what does for example Skitterleap say on the matter?

I think "at will" is a prety decisive phrase here :)

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
12-01-2006, 14:41
I don' quite remember the other instance(s) of teleportation, but what does for example Skitterleap say on the matter?


I don't have the Skaven book at hand, but Steed of Shadows (Lore of Shadows) description says:

"If succesfully cast, the model can make a normal flight move of up to 20". The model can fly out of close combat if desired"

I would like to comment that whether allowed by rules, teleporting out of a combat is not really behaviour fitting the honour of a Bretonnian knight.

Festus
12-01-2006, 14:51
Hi

But SoS is not a teleportation spell like Skitterleap, but rather a move spell, much like the Ork's spell or the other Shadow's move spell (Unseen Lurker?)

IMO you are right on the *fluff approach*, though, but the GK may be a distraction to save the Knights in need?

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
12-01-2006, 15:26
Checked the Skaven book - Skitterleap description specifically says that it can be cast on targets in close combat.

mageith
13-01-2006, 05:26
Hi

I'd say the GK may teleport out of combat, as this is not Movement per se.
...
I think "at will" is a prety decisive phrase here :)

I agree with Festus. But the rules could be clearer, however.

Mad Makz
13-01-2006, 05:43
The answer as per the rules written would be:

Yes, he can teleport out of combat, if he is in a "natural" piece of terrain in the remaining moves phase.

This seems fair enough, as actually fighting in terrain itself is going to be a rare thing I would imagine.

Shagrat
13-01-2006, 06:16
A big grass field counts as "natural terrain"? If it does, he can teleport at will in my entire table...:eek:

mageith
13-01-2006, 06:24
A big grass field counts as "natural terrain"? If it does, he can teleport at will in my entire table...:eek:
Not a problem. "... any 'natural' terrain piece on the table that is difficult or very difficult ground...."

grk1grk
13-01-2006, 07:33
That teleport was illegal. No where in the green knights teleport rules does it say 6" anywhere about anything. Simply that if the green is in (or moves into) any natural piece of terrain during hte remaing moves phase he may teleport to any other natural terrain feature at will. So unless you were fighting in a forest or a river etc then he cheated and that store managers a *****. btw natural terrain pieces have to be designated before any game with the green knight and the only rule is that their must be at least one piece of it. So flock on your game board for grass doesnt really count. Its talking about the 4-5 pieces of terrain you roll for before the game, at least one of which must be designated as "natural". Other terrain that should be considered "natural" is listed in the green knights entry.

If you ever play that guy again just sit down and read the green knights info with him. There is no possible way anyone could read the ruels the way he used them.

Nell2ThaIzzay
13-01-2006, 10:33
If you ever play that guy again just sit down and read the green knights info with him. There is no possible way anyone could read the ruels the way he used them.

I'd like to not play that guy again, it wasn't a good experience.

Not only was he arguing everything I was trying to do (I.E. casting Invokation of Nehek while in close combat, and claiming it needs line of site), while telling me a bunch of incorrect info about his units (I.E. trying to tell me that his knights got the lance formation bonus even when they were charged), but he also had an attitude about him that I didn't enjoy playing against. "Oh, you should do this" or "My units are so powerful, I can do this and this and this"

Now I find out that he duped me on the Green Knights rules too. I guess I should have read it myself, but I just went ahead and trusted him on that one (the 6" thing)

I'd still like to believe that the Knight couldn't teleport out of combat though. Earlier in this thread, someone quoted the rules for models never being able to leave combat, and the Green Knight's rules don't specifically state that he can (whereas apparently, according to another reply to this thread, Skitterleap does specifically indicate it can be used on people in combat)

My response to the "at any time" wording is this:

Since I play Vampire Counts, I often use the Banshee. Her Ghostly Howl cannot be targeted against a unit in close combat, because it counts as a shooting attack, despite the fact that the wording says "any one unit within this range" (range being 8") because the shooting rules state that you cannot shoot into close combat, and there is no specifically stated exception to the rule here. (Word "any" in bold because that is how it is written in the Vampire Counts book)

I would say that would be the same case with the Green Knight. Though it says "at any time", there is no specific exception to an already established rule that would allow it to leave for combat, and the "at any time" merely specifies that you can do it on any turn, and more than once per game, instead of "once per battle", in legal circumstances, in the same way that the "any one unit within this range" wording for the Banshee refers to legal targets within that range.

Festus
13-01-2006, 14:09
Hi

Since I play Vampire Counts, I often use the Banshee. Her Ghostly Howl cannot be targeted against a unit in close combat, because it counts as a shooting attack, despite the fact that the wording says "any one unit within this range" (range being 8") because the shooting rules state that you cannot shoot into close combat, and there is no specifically stated exception to the rule here. (Word "any" in bold because that is how it is written in the Vampire Counts book).

This argument will quickly turn around, as the Banshee's Howl can indeed be directed against any unit, even units in close combat.

The Banshee's rules even makes certain provisions for this case. If the Banshee herself is in combat, she can only howl at the unit/units she is in combat with and this is the only restriction apart from range applying to the Banshee's Howl.

Note that the Banshee's Howl is not a shooting attack, even if it happens during the Shooting Phase.

Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
13-01-2006, 14:34
. Earlier in this thread, someone quoted the rules for models never being able to leave combat

No, I didn't.

I quoted rules saying that units cannot _move_ once engaged in close combat. So units can presumably leave close combat if they can do it with other means.

It can always be debated whether the disappearing rules of Green Knight count as moving or not.

I agree that the Green Knight rules explicitly allowing or disallowing the issue would have easily solved the problem. I guess we know whom to blame once again.

mageith
13-01-2006, 14:54
It can always be debated whether the disappearing rules of Green Knight count as moving or not.

Its done during the Remaining Moves phase.
The unit cannot move further that turn. It uses up any remaining move.
"Note that he still may not end his move within impassable terrain.

So its done during the Move phase, he can't do any further movement and and can't end his appearance (move) within impassable terrain. I'd say its pretty clearly a Move.

I stress the "disappear at will" phrase for my support of leaving combat.

The rules could certainly be clearer, however.

Mage Ith

Griefbringer
13-01-2006, 18:41
In any case, how likely is it that (played correctly) Green Knight would ever get engaged by enemy within a piece of natural terrain (unless fighting against beastmen or wood elves)?

A cunning player could also try to restrict the amount of pieces of natural terrain to a low amount (I think if generating terrain randomly, some rolls give choice of two options) to restrict the places where the knight can show up.

Nell2ThaIzzay
13-01-2006, 19:34
Hi

This argument will quickly turn around, as the Banshee's Howl can indeed be directed against any unit, even units in close combat.

The Banshee's rules even makes certain provisions for this case. If the Banshee herself is in combat, she can only howl at the unit/units she is in combat with and this is the only restriction apart from range applying to the Banshee's Howl.

Note that the Banshee's Howl is not a shooting attack, even if it happens during the Shooting Phase.

Greetings
Festus

Festus, would I be able to get you to elaborate on this rule a bit more for me? In a new thread if neccesary, I don't mind.

But my friends and I came to an agreement that the Banshee could not howl against units in close combat, because it happens during the shooting phase, hence a shooting attack, and does not specifically state she can target units in close combat (unless she is in combat with them), only that she can target solo characters outside of units that normally could not be targetted (I.E. being too close to the unit, so normal shooting attacks couldn't target it)

Festus
14-01-2006, 17:59
Hi

The Banshee's howl is not a shooting attack, although it happens during the Shooting Phase. It doesn't suffer any targeting restrictions (apart from range and the close combat rule) and doesn't need LoS either.

Just because it happens in the Shooting Phase doesn't make it a shooting attack necessarily, it is just convenient to place it there, because it happens to resemble shooting - in that it deals damage over a distance.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
14-01-2006, 18:51
The Banshee's howl is not a shooting attack, although it happens during the Shooting Phase.

How did you determine the Howl is not a shooting attack? It would seem to be that something in the Shooting phase would need some special notation to indicate that its not shooting. It uses some of the shooting rules, such as randomize when shooting compound models and restricts the howl from picking out characters within units.

I agree that the intention of GW is to allow the Banshee to shoot into close combat and I think that's what the emboldened 'any' is trying to say. I don't think they quite pulled it off.


That fact that it can specifically shoot into its OWN combat might make one think that it therefore could certainly shoot into another's close combat, but the general rule still applies. "Players are not allowed to shoot at targets that are engaged in close combat." (60)

Of course, if you can show that the Banshee howl is not shooting, then that rule would not apply.

Mage Ith

Festus
14-01-2006, 18:56
Hi

She still doesn't shoot.

She howls and the caused casualties are distributed just like shooting ... even if it isn't shooting.
Shooting requires LoS, the Banshee's Howl doesn't. Shooting needs hits, the Howl just does damage, and Shooting is a missile of some sort, either Magic Missile, or Cannonball, or Bullet or Arrow.

Is the Casket's spell a shooting attack?

Greetings
Festus

mageith
14-01-2006, 19:12
She howls and the caused casualties are distributed just like shooting ... even if it isn't shooting.
Shooting requires LoS, the Banshee's Howl doesn't. Shooting needs hits, the Howl just does damage, and Shooting is a missile of some sort, either Magic Missile, or Cannonball, or Bullet or Arrow.

So you've worked backwards, listing some of the elements of shooting and since the Banshee doesn't use very many of them its not shooting. Even though it uses others such as being in the Shooting phase, declaring a target from among some restrictions and randomizing like shooting.

What shooting requires: "Nominate one of your units that you want to shoot and select the enemy target you wish to shoot at." ... (58) "Once you have declared your target, measure the range and resolve shooting using the rules described."

I'd assume the 'rules described' are the rules in the shooting section and any special rules for the particular unit shooting.

Most shooting requires LOS. Most shooting needs hits. Most shooting is from a Missile. But there are exceptions to all of these, are there not? Even if there weren't exceptions, they are derived rules.

Again, I think you and GW have clear intentions here, but I don't the rules as you paraphrase them, pull it off. Just an observation.



Is the Casket's spell a shooting attack?

Why is this relevant?

Nell2ThaIzzay
14-01-2006, 20:58
So, I have a friend who says that it would count as a shooting attack and therefore follow the shooting rules of targeting into close combat (i.e. not being able to do it)

How would you convince someone who doesn't think "my interpretation is this" is justification enough to allow me to target units engaged in close combat?

GranFarfar
14-01-2006, 22:30
Well if you would check here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/1/
and look under the VC questions I think you will find that the banshee infact can howl into combat.

On the Green Knight issue I have nothing to contribute.

megastar242
14-01-2006, 23:18
[QUOTE=Nell2ThaIzzay]while telling me a bunch of incorrect info about his units (I.E. trying to tell me that his knights got the lance formation bonus even when they were charged)

I play both Brets, and VC. On the lance formation, if Charged while in lance formation, the only thing you get is the rank bonus being 3 wide instead of the usual 4.

On the topic of the Green Knight, and any special character for that matter, your opponent should ask permission to use him. Thus you would be able to read the rules on that specific char. When the green knight is awoken, he may be placed within any designated "natural terrain", as decided b4 game (and at least 1). the rules state "if the green knight is within (or moves into) a 'natural' piece of scenery during the Remaining Moves phase" he may teleport.

On the topic of banshees, you can use it on whatever unit you wish, even those engaged in cc. Just because something happens in the shooting phase does not necessarily make it shooting. If it were to happen in the magic phase, ppl would say it could be dispelled. this is one of the reasons why the dwarven anvil is used in the movement phase now, as it always was dispelled and now it can not.

mageith
15-01-2006, 00:39
On the topic of the Green Knight, and any special character for that matter, your opponent should ask permission to use him.

This might be polite but unfortuneately its not required for special characters in the army books.

Festus
15-01-2006, 09:14
Hi

Well if you would check here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/1/
and look under the VC questions I think you will find that the banshee infact can howl into combat.
Thanks for the source. I guess that I and even MageIth were too lazy to consult the published material... :(

Greetings
Festus

mageith
15-01-2006, 16:56
Hi

Thanks for the source. I guess that I and even MageIth were too lazy to consult the published material... :(

Greetings
Festus
Lack of remembrance of the actual Q&A. If I had the slightest recollection of such a Q&A I would have looked for it in my computerized database. I would have taken three seconds. I just completely blanked on its very existence.

But I still don't think the Q&A supports your contention that what a Banshee does isn't shooting. All it does is support GW's intention that would allow the Banshee to shoot into any combat. The reason: This time the term 'any' actually means 'any'. It doesn't always, does it?

However, whether what the Banshee does is shooting or not is now moot. We have our answer.

Mage Ith

Nell2ThaIzzay
16-01-2006, 01:09
Well thank you for that source. I was under the impression that "any unit within 8" " meant any legal unit, as according to the shooting rules, within 8", as the text specifically makes exceptions to the normal shooting rules in stating that lone characters who normally couldn't be targeted (I.E. 5" to a unit) can be targeted. My friend and I agreed that since they stated that specific exception to the rule, that if the close combat rule were an exception as well that it would have been specifically stated.

I still would like to see an official answer on the Green Knight, as I will be playing against it eventually. It won't be for awhile, as my friends and I only play 1250 (I only got into a 2000+ point game at GW for the game in question because my opponent also plays Vampire Counts as well as Bretonnians, so he had extra models he allowed me to use for the game), but we do eventually plan on moving up to 2000+

I suppose since there is no specific example for the Banshee of being able to target into close combat, even though it can (and my interpretation on that was wrong), that there could be an exemption to the "cannot leave close combat" rule for the Green Knight, even if not specifically stated.

One way or another though, his original placement of the Knight, as well as his teleport move, were illegal, because he placed the Knight 6" out of the natural terrain (stating it could be within 6", not neccesarily inside the terrain itself), and the movement he wanted to do (which never ended up happening, due to other circumstances in the game, and me conceeding the victory to him) would have been outside of natural terrain.

Those limitations are good to know, so at least if I play this guy again (hopefully I won't) I can have that knowledge.

Nell2ThaIzzay
16-01-2006, 01:11
I play both Brets, and VC. On the lance formation, if Charged while in lance formation, the only thing you get is the rank bonus being 3 wide instead of the usual 4.

Yea, that I know. I was referring to the fact that he was trying to tell me that he could attack with all of those ranks, even though it was my unit that charged his Knights.

Griefbringer
16-01-2006, 11:19
I still would like to see an official answer on the Green Knight, as I will be playing against it eventually.

Well, lot of us would like to see published an official FAQ/errata on the Bretonnian book - so far there hasn't been one, though the book has been out for almost two years (official release date was around 1st of February 2004). Actually, the only official FAQ/errata I have seen for the last two years was the one for Storm of Chaos book.

GranFarfar
16-01-2006, 17:21
Well thank you for that source. I was under the impression that "any unit within 8" " meant any legal unit, as according to the shooting rules, within 8", as the text specifically makes exceptions to the normal shooting rules in stating that lone characters who normally couldn't be targeted (I.E. 5" to a unit) can be targeted. My friend and I agreed that since they stated that specific exception to the rule, that if the close combat rule were an exception as well that it would have been specifically stated.


I have also been under the impression that the banshee canīt shoot into CC during all my years of gaming. Since I faced VC and did not command them myself I havnīt really considering questioning it.

metro_gnome
16-01-2006, 20:31
hehe... don't ;)

GranFarfar
16-01-2006, 21:08
hehe... don't ;)

I didnīt, and then this thread started and ruined my day! :p