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Gav2k
27-08-2009, 20:56
Hey y'all

Seeing as the only Beast Tactics thread is around 4 years old, I figured a fresh thread would suffice rather than threadomancy.
Beasts are largely considered one of the worst armies to play in Fantasy, however they're probably the army which specifies my needs for an army: Close-Combat Skirmish-types.
So, for those of you who still play Beasts, what're your General hints and tips for keeping alive on the field of war? And what about tips against particular armies?

Gav2k
27-08-2009, 21:11
:3

Jokes begin with the first post! I like it.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoths - this model is pure sex to me. Gimme it's pros and cons! :)

lcfr
27-08-2009, 21:38
Just a few short words of 'wisdom':

Never leave home w/out your pooches.

When Ambushing, always set multiple units on each target.

Don't be reliant on individual units or characters; filthy, fecal encrusted fur can only be reliable when in decent numbers.

Gav2k
27-08-2009, 21:45
Just a few short words of 'wisdom':

Never leave home w/out your pooches.

When Ambushing, always set multiple units on each target.

Don't be reliant on individual units or characters; filthy, fecal encrusted fur can only be reliable when in decent numbers.

So, to clarify, thats;

-Warhounds are handy
-Focus a lot of firepower, so to speak, on each target (dont spread out too much?)
-Less is not more, infact, more is more.

Shame about the non-relying on characters thing... I love having big macho characters that are always reliable... But I can get over it ;)

Death Korp
27-08-2009, 22:04
Are Minotaur armies any good? If they are doing plastic models for these, I must do an army of Minos! Crete FTW!

I have the BoC book, is it seriously uncompetative compared to some armies?

Cheers,

DK

Gav2k
27-08-2009, 22:12
I have the book sitting here and, flicking through it, I really cant see anytthing that jumps out and says "THIS ARMY WILL FAIL! FAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLL!!!".
Yet people are so adamant about their weakness.
They just seem so fun! I wanna try them out!

rogueTrader
27-08-2009, 22:41
So a couple of things. Herd's can only rank up 4 models wide against small frontages. Which means that solo characters, big creatures, chariots, etc. You will NOT get rank bonuses against. This is a carry over from the last edition and one of the main complaints about the book.

2nd the magic item selection is just pitiful. It really is. When the Hordes book got taken away about 75% of the magic items went away with it.

On to the things that are cool about beastmen.

Chariots as core. Field 4,5,6 chariots and almost anyone is going to start to sweat, and with the faq allowing them to buy marks it makes tzeentch and khorne lists very nasty.

Minotaurs are nice, the best thing about them is that they can have the mark of your general. Nurgle is good for lasting, and khorne is good for killing power, tzeentch ones are good in hth and give you power dice! Minotaurs == a good buy for any list.

I absolutely think the Shaggoth model is amazing looking. A friends wife painted mine up and the paint job is amazing. Now after looking at the pretty model compare your 306 point shaggoth to 3 dragon ogres for 237 points. They still have strength 7, lose large target status (both good and bad) only cause fear instead of terror, but you also have another 6 or so wounds (can't remember if shaggy is 5 or 6). Shaggy is not bad dragon ogre's usually are a bit better, but the Shaggy is definitely not going to cause your list to fail.

Herds run away, a lot. Always buy them a musician, and remember even if you stick a model with mark of chaos undivided in the unit, under the new rules, the re-roll doesn't benefit the unit.

Never take more than one unit of bestigors, and only do so if you want a unit with the mark, usually only if you are doing khorne, or you want a nice place to hide your doom bull.

Tzeentch lists can be absolutely brutal, generating 14 casting dice in a 2000pt army before "cheesing" it out.

Khorne lists can also be nasty with the ability to field as many dispell dice as the above list had casting dice.

The key to the above, of course, is more, more, chariots!

Fighting fear causing, leadership reducing armies, definitly hurt the beastmen but there are somethings you can do to mitigate this. Mark of nurgle makes you cause fear, putting characters with those marks in units makes them immune to fear. Khorne marks give you frenzy, which also makes you immune to fear.

I still like the army, but I definitly had to change a lot of stuff around to get it to work in the newer environment.

Korhil-WLC
28-08-2009, 03:32
Keep your beastlord cheap, he is only there for the St 7 and the Ld Bonus

iaguz
28-08-2009, 05:49
Alright, I've taken BoC to a fair few tournies and played a ton of matches with 'em, so I know BoC pretty darn well. Here's the low down:

First, there are two lord choices in the army:
Doombull w/ mark of whatever, heavy armour, shield, and the Slaughterer's blade
Great Bray Shaman w/ mark of whatever, chaos armour, Staff of Darkoth, maybe some scrolls.

Beastlords, forget 'em. Crappy in combat, LD 8, no good items. Leave them at home. Only reason you might want one is to tzeentch him up, take the Hatred + bears anger item and the Rune of the True beast, which is actually pretty scary, but not my kind of thing.

Wargors make for decent-ish BSB's. I ran one with Chaos armour and sword of might and he did pretty good. Don't bother with the banners you can get, they stink.

Chariots are awesome. Take Tzeentch ones for extra power dice is my recommendation, khorne ones just seem too easy to redirect. Take at least 3, these are your answers to ASF units (the rest of your army will get diced) and they are great at getting extra wounds in combats which you need because your SCR is balls.

Beast Herds are good but they need a few things. First, FC. Always. Second, at least one character in every herd for combat support. Third, AHW's on gors. Fourth, large numbers. 21 is a good start.

MOAR COMING LATER

Harwammer
28-08-2009, 06:43
I don't really like the shaggoth; it seems pretty expensive at what it does (knight hunting or flanking). He has better movement than the giant and his armour save helps him shrug of light fire, but war machines will still be an issue and he lacks stubborn so can't make frontal charges. Over all I find it hard to justify the extra 100 points over the giant.

I use my herds as small support units, often a good place to put magic missile mages due to 360 LoS and the protection being in a unit gives. I'm reluctant to take large herds with full command; the ranking rules makes these units too vulnerable (and I'm not just talking about 4 wide).

Undivided chariots are my favorite; unlike khorne they can't be lead around, but don't flee at the drop of a pin like tzeentch either. I'll still take K or Tz chariots if my pools need boosting. A Pair of K chariots make a good character assassin (10 str 5, 4 str 4 on charge).

Some people have doubt if BoC BSBs can be given magic weapons (the bsb rule in the BoC book forbids them to take 'extra weapons'), so be mindful of that.

Mark of nurgle is great for characters (precious fear protection!) and the nurgle doombull with slaughterer's blade (makes a regen attempt each time it succesfully wounds an enemy model) tends to stick around until it runs from combat or is sniped by artillery.

The mark rules are complicated and restricting, but gorthor relieves alot of this. He also swaps a hero slot for a rare; I've always wanted to take gorthor + 3 giants in a 2k game :D

iaguz
28-08-2009, 07:46
Gorthor would be my pick of a Lord choice if special characters were allowed in tournaments. Chariot without the str 7 instagib, ld 9 and not a bad fighter either. Bit pricey, but you get what you pay for.

More on beast herds, take no more then 9 gors and make the rest ungors. If you take too many gors then your ungors will never fight! Ungors are cheap and, for what you get, not too bad really.

Bestigors are pretty bleh in my opinion. I've run slaangors and khornegors and they didn't really do it for me. What did was 16 regular bestigors with the warbanner to act as a bodyguard for my Doombull. They're expensive (but not overly so), they provide ranks and standard and warbanner plus they might actually kill someone. Bestigors SEEM good but they are overpriced and lack proper protection/ASF for a great weapon wielding unit.

Warhounds. 3 units of 5 in 2000-2500 minimum. Useful little mutts.

Moving onto specials...

Chaos Trolls are great if you have an ld9 general to tell them what to do. 4 attacks, regen, str 5 for 55 pts. Except for that stupidity they make an excellent support unit.

Chaos Ogres. Bleh. Picture ogre bulls, but without bull charge. See? Terrible unit. Forget 'em.

Minotaurs I'm not a fan of. Little armour, crappy leadership and same mark as general is restricting, seeing as I like an undivided general and I'd want either khornate or nurgle minotaurs. A full Minotaur list could possibly work, theoretically, but then you should just play Ogre Kingdoms.

Centigor. I have a love/hate relationship with these guys. If they frenzy at an opportune moment, which they do quite a bit for me, then they're golden. I've had a game turn around because a lone centigor frenzied and charged a unit of dryads and rip into 'em! If they lose a few dudes to shooting and flunk their first LD test then they are terrible. I suppose they make decent medium cavalry, but they're a bit pricey. I have heard some people like to use them with throwing axes because of str 5, and that does sound ok.

Moving onto rare...

Spawn. Never used 'em, so I wouldn't know about 'em.

Shaggoth. Too expensive, not capable of ripping most units apart by itself. Forget it. Teh model is sexy, the rules are pathetic.

Giant. Use a shaggoth as this if you want (that's what my mate did, sexy conversion too). Giants make for excellent fire sponges. Well, they would if costing 205pts was a good price for a bullet magnet. Assuming he doesn't get wasted in the first few turns, I've had a few good performances from my Giant, but honestly I think I'd rather more dragon ogres.

Dragon Ogres. Ah, the cream of the crop. A unit of 4 with light armour and great weapons and you sir, have lethality aplenty. Mine almost never fail to impress me with their seemingly endless capacity for violence (well, excluding that one time when they and the general panic'd off the board due to a Brain Gobbler. Goodbye 316+238+100 vps!). They are pricey, but worth it.


As for your lores, the old chaos lores are pretty weak. Well, some utility could be gotten out of slaanesh, Tzeentch requires a lvl 4 (ie, a beastlord) if you want to enjoy it and Nurgle doesn't compare anywhere near to the new WoC one. Stick with Beasts, for utility, and Death, for killing. For your magical characters, I run 2 bray shamans with 3 tzeentch chariots. One has the staff of darkoth, the other 2 scrolls. 9 Pd, 4 DD. For 2 hero choices that's a fair bit of magical shenanigans.

As for strategy, well, basically get them. Before the game begins, I look at my opponent's list and pick out what units of mine stand a good chance at beating his units. For example, against my mates Dark Elves, my Dragon Ogres take on the Hydra (tons of high str attacks tend to munch the thing), my chariots go for his ASF black guard (impact hits > Asf!), my Bestigor + doombull goes for the spearelves and my beast herds, centigor and trolls try to threaten everything else and keep them away from preventing my units from chomping their targets.

The other thing about your strategy is to be realistic. You're beasts. Beasts are considered very weak and for good reason. In that above example, if even just half of those unit-on-unit matchups go my way I'm going to be pleased. Most of the time Sean wastes my chariots before they get near his Black Guard, my Dragon Ogres might decide to fail their Fear check, and all sorts of other horrible things might occur.

Now, for other things Beasts related...

First, if your enemy plonks down a big scary flying thing like a Dreadlord on Dragon, you're dead. Unless he's a nub or you get VERY lucky, you're dead. With no shooting and no units that can really take on a dragonlord plus an army with crappy leadership, you're so dead it's not funny. The only way I can really find of countering Dragon Lords/Princes/Greater Daemons/etc is to try and charge the Giant into him using Wolf Hunts or repeated casts of The Beast Cowers. If I don't roll those spells, I'm basically dead.

Second, ambushes. I run a Doombull so I don't use 'em, but when I used to run a beastlord ambushing is kind of cool but only if there's anything worth ambushing which is really just war machines and small missile units. I reckon you're better off just putting more points into solid combat troops and going hell for leather!

Third, other army builds, a quick run down. In the European Team Championships, the few people who were stupid enough to try their Beast of Chaos armies (stupid because in that sort of environment BoC stood very little chance, even with 250 extra points) they almost all took lvl 4 slaaneshi great shamans and tons of mark of slaanesh all over. I didn't really like that sort of build though.

Tzeentch'd up cheese armies could work, but the main problem is that you need lvl 4 casters for that lore (so a Beastlord) and that the old lore of tzeentch is pretty balls. I guess tons of power dice might be fun...

A chariot horde is one thing I'd love to do but never have. I can only but imagine just how fun it would be, and possibly quite powerful too.

A minotaur horde, led by a doombull and either Khorne or Nurgle marks might be viable but you're probably better off playing Ogre Kingdoms if you want to take an army of middleweights like that.

Gav2k
28-08-2009, 11:07
These are some great tips! Shame about the Shaggoth though... The idea to proxy the model as a Giant is a good idea I'll likely employ, mind you.
I'd love to use Dragon Ogres but I despise their models, any other proxying ideas for these?

I'd like to learn more about Chaos Spawn, they're rubbish in 40k IIRC, but how are their Fantasy counterparts?

Also, are Beasts good in smaller-point games? What's best to avoid in such a game? (I'm talking 500/750.../1000 pushing it... games)

iaguz
28-08-2009, 11:31
I might be able to find a pic of that shaggoth, the conversion is quite stunning and the paint job isn't bad neither.

Agreed that Dragon Ogres have ugly models. You might try getting the bottom half of them and slapping the top half of an irongut on top of it, that's what the aforementioned buddy did.

I dunno about chaos spawn but they aren't terrible like the 40k ones are.

Beasts will be fine in small points games as long as they don't have to roll many leadership tests. If they do then you're basically buggered as the highest LD you're going to have is a disappointing 7. One tool you can have is tons of magic considering you have easy access to tons of Tzeentch, and I advise you use that. Really, the main army that sucks in small games is Tomb Kings, who lack all the magical gubbinz they really rely on to have an army that doesn't suck.

Gav2k
28-08-2009, 11:37
I might be able to find a pic of that shaggoth, the conversion is quite stunning and the paint job isn't bad neither.

I'd be very interested to see that!


Agreed that Dragon Ogres have ugly models. You might try getting the bottom half of them and slapping the top half of an irongut on top of it, that's what the aforementioned buddy did.

A very good idea, sounds expencive though - and I've never even kitbashed a model before, though this sounds simple enough.


Beasts will be fine in small points games as long as they don't have to roll many leadership tests. If they do then you're basically buggered as the highest LD you're going to have is a disappointing 7.

I think I'm basically buggered. My friend's main WHFB army is Vampire Counts, and he's the only person I play atm - though he's been talking about using Dwarves recently, so I could be in luck.
Ambushing his shooty units would be good fun.

iaguz
28-08-2009, 11:42
Here it is. Enjoy.

Gav2k
28-08-2009, 11:46
:3 d'aw. He's giving us the finger. SOOOO CUUUUTE!

Wait... Do Shaggoths and Giants have the same bases/base sizes? Wouldn't that be against the rules to have a different base?

iaguz
28-08-2009, 11:48
I don't know. No-one ever seems to mind...

Matt1982
28-08-2009, 13:09
Beasts in small games are to my mind far more effective than at higher point games. My reason for that statement being our lords and magical selections are horrible so while other armies get bigger and fiercer we end up fielding more of the same.

A basic 500 point Beasty army can contain, a hero, decent sized beast herd for him to lead, a chariot to support their charge, some warhounds to shield them and some supporting minotaurs to clobber anything armoured that the opposition field. The lower the points the better we do :)

Gav2k
28-08-2009, 14:16
Can anyone tell me what each of the Marks do for the beasts? I don't have my Army Book to hand and it's bugging me...

Matt1982
28-08-2009, 15:33
Depends on the unit your putting the mark on...

Tzeentch on BeastLord makes em lvl 4 caster
Tzeentch on Hero, Shaggoth or Doombull makes em lvl 2 caster
Tzeentch on everything else makes em generate a power dice

Nurgle on Beastlord or Hero gives Fear and +1W
Nurgle on Shaggoth or Doombull gives +1W
Nurgle on Regiment gives Fear
Nurgle on Minotaurs gives 5+ scaly skin save

Khorne on anything gives Frenzy and generate a dispell dice

Slaanesh on Lord, Doombull, Hero, Regiment gives immune to psychology
Slaanesh on Shaggoth gives ASF

Gav2k
28-08-2009, 15:58
So if I'm up against VC I wanna be using Slaanesh...? I have a bit of fluff for my Beasts, which heavilly implies they are involved with Tzeench, is making the beastlord lvl 4 a good move? Someone mentioned before that its a bad idea...

rogueTrader
28-08-2009, 16:40
I really dislike the mark of slaanesh, it removes one of the best abilities of the beasts army, which is bait and trap. And you can't get the mark on herd's at least to where it's usefull.

I would actually use nurgle more against vampires because that allows you to put fear causing models in your units, thus making them immune to fear.

Harwammer
28-08-2009, 18:33
not many units can be marked for BoC; chariots, bestigor and minotaurs mainly.

minotaurs already cause fear and only one unit of bestigor can take a mark, so really its only chariots and characters that benefit from the marks.

Slaneesh doesn't get passed from character to unit, just like Mocu doesn't :(

If you want fear protection put nurgle characters into herds as they cause fear.

txamil
29-08-2009, 01:26
Nurgle is the best mono list, but its an ugly build to model.

GenerationTerrorist
29-08-2009, 01:49
I used to play BoC and have two unit tips to tell you:
- Chariots (with MoK or MoT) are your friend
- Units of 5 Centigors are your friend

Gav2k
30-08-2009, 22:52
Alright, news flash. My friend has just went out and bought a buncha Dwarf stuff. Am I still wanting Nurgle in that case?

I gotta say I'm really interested in making my Hero (low-point games, no Lords) a caster. Is it worth it?

Seeing as nobody has opposed them, I'm guessing that Marks are a must-take? Is there any advantages to not taking them?

Aladauqs
31-08-2009, 22:50
Alright, news flash. My friend has just went out and bought a buncha Dwarf stuff. Am I still wanting Nurgle in that case?

I gotta say I'm really interested in making my Hero (low-point games, no Lords) a caster. Is it worth it?

Seeing as nobody has opposed them, I'm guessing that Marks are a must-take? Is there any advantages to not taking them?

Probably not, because fear won't really make a lot of difference to ld9. I had moderate success with a pure Khorne army against dwarfs, especially with S6 minotaurs with four attacks apiece, and using both a lot of tooled-up, S7 characters and Dragon Ogres. That said, there's not a great deal a combat heavy army can do that a magic heavy one can't, although of course magic is a lot more unreliable.

At low levels, I wouldn't say it's worth putting Mark of Tzeentch on your wargor. The Tzeentch lore isn't fantastic in the beasts book, and your bray-shaman is already decent in combat with a braystaff, and even better with the Bear's Anger.

Eldaneshkin
01-09-2009, 03:04
Tzeentch spells in beast book can really rock an enemy. get indigo fire off against a low toughness unit and Tzaangors are in combat. But that model has to be tooled for spell casting not melee to take real advantage.

Matt1982
01-09-2009, 09:02
Against Dwarfs at low level points games I wouldn't recommend dabbling with a single caster, either go all out with marks of Tzeentch on chariots to give you the dice to beat passed their extra dispells or dont bother at all.

Octavian
07-09-2009, 01:29
I've been playing with beasts for quite a while, in my experience, when fighting against Dwarves in low points: you most likely be better off ditching the spell caster and spending the points on giving all the hard units great weapons. This will counter their high toughness and armour saves. I have found that my best friend vs virtually anyone is speed. If you have units of ogres/minotaurs/trolls 3-6 pairing up with your warbands of beastmen then you can easily intimidate and out manoeuvre most enemies. Especially dwarves. that 10 or 12 inch charge will be extremely difficult to counter (note that beast herds can charge in any direction :D, this screws up battle lines almost every time).

I normally play in 2000+ games so I end up using an undivided Doombull leading with Tzaangore Champions as backup. my main reason for this is i also have lots of daemons and i often like to throw in a couple of auxiliary units of them to keep my opponents on their toes. Otherwise i'd probably give him and his retinue the mark of slaanesh, to stop them taking panic tests and to make them immune to many Leadership affecting spells and items.