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T10
27-08-2009, 23:02
Not really all that much of a rules question, but a question of morality and convention. Is it ok to blatantly lie to your opponent about your "army secrets"?

Last evening an old gaming story re-surfaced. During deployment of our units, my opponent pointed at one of my characters:

Player: "Hey, is that a Templar Grand Marshal?"

Me: "Yes."

Player: "Does he have the Sword of Power and the Laurels of Victory?"

Me: "No, he does not."

Later in the game....

Me: "And my Grand Marshal attacks, using his Sword of Power and Laurels of Victory."

Player: "Hey! You said he didn't have those!"

Me: "... I lied."

-T10

nosferatu1001
27-08-2009, 23:09
In this case you were lying about something the opponent had no reasonable right to ask about: magic items. That isn't cheating as you are under no compunction to answer even - and they should know that when you fish you might get a boot.

If you lied about army capabilities etc, stuff that is not (or should not be) secret then that would be cheating, as you are deliberately misleading them about known capabiltiies.

StormCrow
27-08-2009, 23:10
I say go for it. If people are trying to guess at the private information of your army you have every right to mislead them. Serves them right for being nosey!

Ultimate Life Form
27-08-2009, 23:10
Well, this obviously IS cheating because you have to give your opponent correct information on your troops' equipment.

In case of Magic Items, you don't need to reveal them until they're used, but in this case the correct answer would have been just that, "I needn't tell you". If you choose to ignore this and give me any information nonetheless, it must be genuine.

Blatantly lying your opponent in the face is clearly lowest level and no good sportsmanship. This would be reason enough for me not to play against you anymore.

Lord Dan
27-08-2009, 23:13
I completely agree with Nosferatu. In fact it was silly of him to expect you to respond with anything else, and it's his own fault for being "mislead".

Milgram
27-08-2009, 23:14
good question. I recently played a 'friend' on a tournament. he asked questions about my army which I answered in good sportsmanship. because he has seen my army the evening before anyways as he's friends with the guy that I had the army swap with.

then when I asked a few questions about his army he said 'that is secret' - which I thought was not the best sportsmanship.

I gave him the fairness points anyways because a) he didnt try to pull anything on me and b) he was the only one I played that tournament that actually spent some toughts on his army.

I have to say, he played demons, I played o&g. :)

so, my opinion is no: it is not cheating. it's like 'I don't play fanatics anymore because they never do their points with all these flying crap around' and shortly after: 'please stop 8" from my night goblins!' -> always fun to watch that old scare on the enemies face again.

Lord 0
27-08-2009, 23:17
Was this in a game with open lists? If it was then yes, lying is cheating. If the lists were closed then no, it is not cheating and he is a dumbass for believing anything you told him.

I don't agree with this at all:
If you choose to ignore this and give me any information nonetheless, it must be genuine.
As an example, imagine you are playing poker.

Friend: "Hey, do you have anything better than three Jacks?"
You: "No."
Friend: "OK, I bet $500."
You: "I have four Kings."
Friend: "Hey! You said you didn't have anything better!"
You: "I lied".

McMullet
27-08-2009, 23:18
Explicit lying is... lying. I don't know if it's cheating as such, since that depends on your definition of cheating, but I certainly consider it unsporting, underhand and not the proper gentlemanly conduct I expect of a wargamer. If one of my friends tried that for joke I might see the funny side, but if someone did that at a tournament or during a pick-up game I'd be, well, disappointed. The tournament player would get a "**** game" rating and the store gamer would not play me again, assuming I bothered to finish that game (unlikely).

Convention requires us to be honest, about rules in our armybooks and especially about lists. I'm not going to sit there and work out the value of every unit in your army to be sure it's under 2000 points. Of course, if you agree to play with closed lists (i.e., concealing non-WYSIWYG items like magic weapons, bloodline powers and such - which is a valid way to play Warhammer) then you're at liberty to keep quiet about items until they become relevant. I'd go as far as to say that dropping misleading hints would be an acceptable part of the (meta-)game. But outright lying? No.

Without knowing the particulars of what you did on this specific occasion, I won't criticise you personally. But in general, I'd rank lying in that way as little better than loaded dice. :)

Lord Dan
27-08-2009, 23:19
With regard to your last comment, Milgram, if anyone is honestly lured into a false sense of security when someone proclaims "I am definitely NOT taking this unit" then they deserve to be taken by surprise.

Ultimate Life Form
27-08-2009, 23:21
Obviously most people here seem to think that lying is fun and should be encouraged. I find this disturbing. The problem is, it ruins everything for anyone. Where do you draw the line? Today you lie to me about your Magic Items, but what's tomorrow? Maybe your other troops actually aren't equipped the way you tell me or they don't really have that Immune to Psych special rule you claim they have which saves them from a game-deciding Terror check?

I must be able to trust my opponent and play against him without studying his entire army book and list before the game. If that trust is lost, I would deem any future game a pure waste of time as no one guarantees me you don't make up rules along the way as befits you.

Edit: And the problem is this isn't Poker, it's Warhammer. There are games where this sort of tactic is rerquired, but this is not one of them. Obviously we're again in the field of 'the rules don't say I must not lie, so it's okay to do so.'

Thumbs down.

Nightsword
27-08-2009, 23:25
I agree with Ultimate life form in that's lyings wrong. The answer IMO should be "i don't have to tell you" or "i'll tell you if you tell me what your hero has." He doesn't technically have the right to ask, but you don't have to answer either. Two wrongs and all that...

Nurgling Chieftain
27-08-2009, 23:36
Punching your opponent isn't necessarily cheating, it's assault. Lying isn't necessarily cheating, but it's still lying.

marv335
27-08-2009, 23:36
Basicly Yes.
At least what the OP did was cheating to my mind.
He could (should) have said "wait and see" or something of that nature.
to flat out lie is just wrong.

pointyteeth
27-08-2009, 23:42
Interesting question. Personally I think someone asking what your character has (in closed list format) is dredging for an advantage and somewhat unsporting to begin with. Depending on who it was I would likely do the same as you. If it was a tournament I would accept getting docked sportsmanship points for this, but if it was a few games in and the guy had done the same in previous battles I might dock him too.

shartmatau
27-08-2009, 23:51
My question is, why would you lie? Other than the obvious result of deliberately tricking your opponent you have nothing to gain.

So you blatantly deceived your opponent, that's cheating. These games are not gambling games, you're not playing poker.

Correct, your opponent doesn't have the right of knowing each specific thing about your army. But as many have said, you could have just as easily said 'you will have to find out' or just say nothing at all.

If your of the opinion that a deliberate trick is cheating, then yes it is. If not then I imagine you would find it hard to play someone again.

theunwantedbeing
27-08-2009, 23:52
I will always add,
"but I dont have to tell you untill they get used, so I could easily be lying."

I'de like to point out that I only tell my opponent my items when they ask me, I dont deliberately mislead them.
I just enjoy pointing out the folly in asking me something I dont have to tell my opponent.

While this is a game and its perfectly fine to bluff,
-where's the assasin?
-find the fanatic
-does that mage running towards that bloodthirster have the speculum?

There's a difference between having that assasin on the edge of the table, and telling your opponent "I have an assasin, he's in such-and-such unit" when your army doesnt have an assasin at all.

starlight
27-08-2009, 23:55
Lying may not be cheating, but it's still *wrong*. Or did you miss that day in kindergarden...? :eyebrows:


Punching your opponent isn't necessarily cheating, it's assault. Lying isn't necessarily cheating, but it's still lying.

QFT

As always, it depends on the type of game and the environment. If you're playing in a group where surprise combos and sneaky tactics are the norm, then have fun with that, but in regular games I'm of the opinion that you either tell the truth or you keep your yap shut. :p

If you're not interested in revealing information, then politely saying that (some variation of) *that information isn't available* is the best solution...

Tarian
28-08-2009, 00:09
I have to agree, I find lying during a game to be... distasteful.

If asked, I'll either tell them what my general/character has (if they're trying to learn) or kindly tell them to try and hit him so they can find out.

If nothing else, lying is poor sportsmanship, which would definitely color any further games with said person.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-08-2009, 00:29
I agree with Ultimate life form in that's lyings wrong. The answer IMO should be "i don't have to tell you" or "i'll tell you if you tell me what your hero has." He doesn't technically have the right to ask, but you don't have to answer either. Two wrongs and all that...

I agree with this as well. To lie may not be cheating but's still kind of cheap. I don't like to have offgame advantages over my opponents so if they ask me about my magic items i either tell them to wait and see or simply tell them.

Gimp
28-08-2009, 00:35
I have to agree with starlight.

You did not "cheat" but sigh dude you could have easily said "sorry man but i cant tell you that" instead of well just being mean.

You did not cheat but that was a bad sport.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
28-08-2009, 00:43
The first part of of this thread freaked me out, but I've had part of my faith in humanity restored by the rest.

Lying is lying. That's why it's wrong. Who cares if it's cheating?

nosferatu1001
28-08-2009, 01:00
But the person asking, knowing that the information is closed for now, was attempting to cheat in my opinion - trying to gauge your reaction to the question to garner information about what you may have. By giving an outright "no" you may have lied, but you didnt initiate any foul play.

As to the other people essentialy making the slippery slope argument, erm - no. One thing should be known (mundane equipment, etc) the other shouldn't. Attempting to trick people into revealing this information is also underhand, more so than not giving a truthful response.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
28-08-2009, 01:20
But the person asking, knowing that the information is closed for now, was attempting to cheat in my opinion - trying to gauge your reaction to the question to garner information about what you may have. By giving an outright "no" you may have lied, but you didnt initiate any foul play.

"Knowing the information is closed"? They are simply asking about the equipment on your character. All you have to do is say, "I'm not telling you," and the game can continue. They are not attempting to cheat by asking you a question. There's no rule saying you cannot tell the other person what gear your characters have, so asking is not cheating or breaking a rule. By saying "no" the player lied, plain and simple. If someone lies to you and you lie back, you still are responsible for your own lie.


As to the other people essentialy making the slippery slope argument, erm - no. One thing should be known (mundane equipment, etc) the other shouldn't. Attempting to trick people into revealing this information is also underhand, more so than not giving a truthful response.

How did he attempt to trick? By asking in a forthright and straightforward manner? What an underhanded sneak, asking the person to volunteer information the person could choose to give or not give away! What if he asked, "Hey, if I move vulnerable squads forward, will you assault them?" He's looking for valuable information that he can use in his favor, what a conniving fella.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. Lying is wrong, and if you're not into absolutes then you can at least agree that is unsporting.

jaxom
28-08-2009, 01:25
Ok, so we have had a reference to poker and people saying this is Warhammer, not poker... The poker analogy is still 100% valid.

You guys ever heard of tells? The point of talking over a table in poker is not to get an honest answer. It's to see how your opponent reacts. If you answer the question in OP's post with "I don't have to tell you that," then you might as well have said yes. Those of you who have said the answer given was cheating, ask yourself a question... If you are standing at the table while someone *else* asks your opponent the same question, how would you use the information that resulted? Surely you would take *something* from it even if you were not fishing and just innocently overheard. Maybe you change your tactics, maybe you don't... This is not about you... It's about someone who intentionally chose to engage in table-talk with the intent of changing tactics based on what they learned...

If someone chooses to bring up a subject like that then *they* are responsible for how they use the information you give. The only reasonable exception to that is a new player who might honestly not have an idea what a closed list is. Assuming that you were playing a competent opponent, especially in a tournament setting, then I would say fishing gets you what you deserve.

GodSlayer
28-08-2009, 01:49
In the OP case, did the fact that he lied might have changed the game? I mean, the fact that someone asked the question of equipment was for what reason exactly?

Half of the game is creating a list that will surprise your opponent on the tabletop. Like a poker game, you keep your best moves hidden. It just happens that WH is a game when you prepare your hand in advance.

But, it raises a point, if you lie here, where will it stop? Was that only to teach a lesson to that one guy?
Even if it's not illegal, per se, it's highly unethical.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-08-2009, 01:50
Ah, the age-old two-wrongs-make-a-right argument. Sorry. Doesn't work in law, doesn't work in dice.

threewolftats
28-08-2009, 01:57
actually i prefer to play open list games.... where you and your opponent can have a quick read thru before the game..... if you can win a game even after your opponent knows you have turned your dwarf lord into a fantasy version of the panzer tank..... then you are a worthy general.....

Gimp
28-08-2009, 01:58
Dude you had to lie to win at a game involving toy soldiers i am going to be honest here but that is a very very low point in ones life. Not kidding.

Lord 0
28-08-2009, 02:17
How did he attempt to trick? By asking in a forthright and straightforward manner?
You answered your own question. By asking in a forthright and straightforward manner for information he had no right to, and is specifically barred by rule from knowing in advance he sought a game advantage by bluffing that he was allowed access to the information.

Granted, asking like he was allowed to know the answer is a trick that will only work on newbies, but so what? That doesn't make it right. And yes, as far as I am concerned, people that will try that sort of underhanded trick *are* valid prey and sporting targets*. I have no more sympathy for that person that I would for a thief who was given an exploding dye-pack during a robbery. Both sought to gain what they were not entitled to and when what they got blows up on them (metaphorically and literally respectively) then I am sorry, but they got what was coming to them.

--Edit: I tell a lie - I am not sorry at all.--

*
you can at least agree that is unsporting.

starlight
28-08-2009, 02:33
You answered your own question. By asking in a forthright and straightforward manner for information he had no right to, and is specifically barred by rule from knowing in advance he sought a game advantage by bluffing that he was allowed access to the information.

Actually no, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep...


...they got what was coming to them.

You do understand how pathetically pompous you sound...? :(

Lord 0
28-08-2009, 02:49
Actually no
Actually, yes - and I have seen it happen.

Cheater: "Hey, does that wizard have Van Horstman's Speculum?"
Newbie: "Yes, he does. Does that Darkelf General have the Black Gem?*"
Cheater: "I don't have to tell you that."

*Or something. I forget the exact item he was asking for - it was a long time ago.

starlight
28-08-2009, 03:00
In which case the first player isn't cheating by asking, he's cheating (or being dishonest) by refusing to play on a level playing field. Two totally separate issues.

rtunian
28-08-2009, 03:06
the standard is not to have open lists. if open lists were the standard, then there wouldn't exist magic items which reveal opponent army secrets (equips, hidden chars, etc).

asking if such and such character is equipped with such and such magic items in a standard game is an attempt to cheat. having that knowledge would always impact your tactics. having knowledge that you are not entitled to is cheating. it's like having the answer key for a test. ok this unit takes these units, and that unit, well i would be scared of it but i see now that it's only a trick question and the answer is this.

is lying okay?
it's not okay in that it's morally correct, but it's okay in that it's understandable given the circumstances. all you people who are like "oh woe is humanity!!!" need to get a grip, and put things in perspective. this isn't a lie to a wife about a mistress. this isn't a lie to a country about a war. this is a lie to a cheater about a game.

now if it's a noob asking about unit stats, or any other information that he would normally be entitled to, then yes, lying about it would be poor sportsmanship, but in this case, it's more like teasing than cheating

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 03:20
Lying is lying. Is it cheating? That is totally subjective. No rules cover it. (Just because you have a right to know some stuff(unit special rules) and your opponent has a right to keep some stuff hidden(magic items, fanatics) doesn't count as a ruling in either direction.)

What I don't get is why you would lie in the first place when there are other, much more sporting avenues available.

Lying in a game...that's just ridiculous conduct.


having knowledge that you are not entitled to is cheating.

:eyebrows:

Maybe(Although upon closer inspection that's a farcical claim to make- I know that my opponents single Lv1 Mage has a Dispel Scroll or two from turn 1, he didn't tell me but 10 years of game experience is all that I really need to listen to!)but I highly doubt that asking for this knowledge is cheating. If you go back to the poker analogy, asking if they have trips or better is hardly cheating, is it?

starlight
28-08-2009, 03:24
The response *Sorry, that's not in the rules, didn't you know?* or *We play closed lists around here.* is a much better response than *Dirty cheater, let's show him!*. :eyebrows:


To paraphrase - What you assume about others says more about you than it does about them... :eyebrows:

Necromancy Black
28-08-2009, 03:47
If someone ask if a model has certain items that are non-standard (ie, magic items) I just go "Maybe..." followed by an awesome face.

Lieing isn't cheating but is definitely poor sportsmanship. Just don't say yes or no, nothing makes you say either way and is better sportsmanship.

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 03:55
An interesting question.

If you are asked something along the lines of "does your character have magic item X?", then in my opinion you are not only allowed to lie, but you positively should.

Let me explain why:

Player A is about to decide wether or not to take a specific action, the desired outcome of which is highly dependant on item X not being on the field. If X iwould be present, he would not take this action.

So player A asks player B politely if item X is on the field.

Player B indeed has item X on the field and has now to decide how to answer:

Affirming it would give player A a huge advantage.
Denying it would mean to lie.
Being vague would be the same as to outright affirm it. If player B is unwiiling to deny having item X, then player A can safely assume that B does have X, hence his unwillingness.

Player A has no right to even ask the question in the first place, since the entire design of it is to gain information he or she is in no way entitled to, which constitutes cheating.
The only way to not reveal this information is to lie.


The gentlemanlike solution would of course be to not even ask such questions, but once the question is out, one positively should go ahead and lie.

Greetz, Skalfgrimm

PS: First post on these boards, so: Hello Warseer!

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 03:57
I don't understand where all this "lying is wrong no matter what" is coming from. If someone asks the question: "Does that model have _____ ?" in a closed list setting he's trying to gain information he isn't supposed to know by either tricking his opponent or hoping his opponent is overly nice. This is cheating, and for some reason people don't seem to have a problem with this kind of underhandedness. If my opponent is going to try to psyche me out and get me to reveal something, I don't believe I have any obligation to be nice about it.

None of this applies in an open list setting, of course, because your opponent has the right to know what your models are carrying.

jaxom
28-08-2009, 04:07
Dude you had to lie to win at a game involving toy soldiers i am going to be honest here but that is a very very low point in ones life. Not kidding.

Dude, you had to stoop to trying to draw information out about something you know is not fair game seeking unfair advantage to win a game. And now you are offended that you got played in the table talk?

I'm sorry. I don't like seeing people trying to take advantage of something like that and Skalfgrimm has very eloquently summed up how table-talk works. I don't think lying is a good thing. I don't make a habit of it in my life. I also don't engage in table-talk in a serious environment. If my opponent, however, tries to make table-talk a part of the game, then it is a part of the game by his choice and I am not going to reveal to him any information by statement or inference.

Let's turn the table on all those who pre-suppose that lying is bad. You know enough about human nature to know that if you plead the fifth or otherwise brush off the question your opponent *will* assume that you have the specified items. So if he guesses wrong, will you tell him the truth because to not do so is to knowingly mislead him? I mean, you are happily sitting in judgement of a specific action. I just want to get a broader picture here... What answer or answers *are* valid and under what circumstances?

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 04:10
The only way to not reveal this information is to lie.

That is incorrect. Your option 3(Be vague) has many more variables than that. You phrased it as though it had a single outcome...which is absurd. :D

Just by the way, there are more than 3 options in this scenario. Verbal communication isn't a requirement for interaction. :angel:

Greetz, Skalfgrimm

PS: First post on these boards, so: Hello Warseer!

Welcome to Warseer. The only forum on the internet to mention both Angels and Nobs. :rolleyes:



Let's turn the table on all those who pre-suppose that lying is bad. You know enough about human nature to know that if you plead the fifth or otherwise brush off the question your opponent *will* assume that you have the specified items. So if he guesses wrong, will you tell him the truth because to not do so is to knowingly mislead him?

Isn't this a case of your opponent misleading himself? Not telling someone whether they have guessed correctly or incorrectly is not lying by any defination.

I mean, you are happily sitting in judgement of a specific action. I just want to get a broader picture here... What answer or answers *are* valid and under what circumstances?

Isn't that an impossible question to answer given the number of variables?

Ask a nonspecific question, recieve a nonspecific answer: Any which do not involve directly lying to your opponent. :)


Meaningless filler. (...)

Ultimate Life Form
28-08-2009, 04:11
I just want to get a broader picture here... What answer or answers *are* valid and under what circumstances?

That's easy - "I won't tell" is the answer.

And no, it doesn't confirm or deny anything - it simply is the standard answer to all questions on Magic Items and therefore does imply nothing.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 04:17
That's easy - "I won't tell" is the answer.

Fair enough, but I don't like the idea that the person who responds with a lying "No" is somehow more of a bad guy than the opponent who tries to steal the information in the first place (not that you implied this, it just seemed to be the consensus over the last page).

Nurgling Chieftain
28-08-2009, 04:24
Two wrongs don't make a right, Lord Dan. It doesn't make one tiny little iota of difference who is MORE wrong.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
28-08-2009, 04:30
Fair enough, but I don't like the idea that the person who responds with a lying "No" is somehow more of a bad guy than the opponent who tries to steal the information in the first place (not that you implied this, it just seemed to be the consensus over the last page).

Why are supposing that this person is trying to STEAL information? If they are used to knowing what everyone is equipped with, then they are just playing the way the normally play. And the fact remains that the other person is in no way forced to share the information! This bullcrap about "stealing" information is ridiculous, the rules says you don't have to share it. It does not say that it is illegal to share it, or to attempt to get it from your opponent by asking. Even if it was against the rules to ask your opponent if their character is carrying items A and B, which it is not, why in the world would you think that someone breaking a rule justifies your own rule breaking?

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me glad I mostly play with friends at my home, where the object of the game is to have a good time and try to beat the opponent based on generalship.

Lying is wrong, and the fact that we're even having this ridiculous argument just shows what a sorry state we're all in.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 04:32
It does if you don't feel an apathetic "no" in response to such a blatantly probing question is truly wrong.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 04:34
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me glad I mostly play with friends at my home, where the object of the game is to have a good time and try to beat the opponent based on generalship.

I haven't played a tournament in years. All of my games are open list and with friends, so I empathize completely. I just find it interesting that everyone is getting hung up on the response while they completely overlook the legitimacy (and, to a degree, morality) of the initial question.

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 04:42
By not answering at all or being vague you do inherently give away information. The way you communicate (verbal, nonverbal, throwing tantrums...) has little bearing.

There are two situations possible:

I) Item X is on the field.
II) Item X is not on the field.

Player A has no way to know, so assuming either I) or II) is equally valid.

He then drops "The Question". B refuses to answer at all, since he does not want to give Xīs presence away and he does not want to lie.

Now A knows the following: B was unwilling to affirm Xīs presence. This is expected, since B would not want to answer affirmingly.
B was also unwilling to deny. This is relevant, since this reluctance might stem from an inhibition to ly. Most people do prefer not to lie (as is evident in this thread), so this assumption is valid and useful.

While B does not know for sure he now has more reason to assume that X is present. This information proves useful in planning further actions.


I honestly do not see how anyone could argue that being vague or not answering at all does not convey information.
We could debate how much information is conveyed or that the information is neglectable, but information is conveyed after all.

Greetz, Skalfgrimm

EDIT:
Lying is wrong, and the fact that we're even having this ridiculous argument just shows what a sorry state we're all in.
Lying itself is not wrong. It can be wrong, granted, but the morality of lying is entirely dependent on circumstance.

Lying can be beneficial or even the only "moral" thing to do (what is or is not moral is of course relative to whom you ask, there is no absolute morality).

And we are in a great state: We can discuss moral viewpoints in open discourse, engaging in a free exchange of ideas based on our critical thinking and our experiences. What is not to like?

Alathir
28-08-2009, 04:55
I wouldn't say its cheating but you are misleading your opponent into a tactically bad position because you misled them about an item you may or may not have had.

In the provided example, both players are at fault. The guy who asked shouldn't feel he has the right to know that information straight up (because he doesn't.) but your answer, T10, was pretty unsportsmanlike. Why not simply say, "Who knows?" or "He might. He might not."

I think 'misdirection' is okay (like keeping an assassin model in the corner of the table but not having one), but flat out lying to his face? No dice.

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 05:16
By not answering at all or being vague you do inherently give away information. The way you communicate (verbal, nonverbal, throwing tantrums...) has little bearing.

Not true, examples below. :D

There are two situations possible:

I) Item X is on the field.
II) Item X is not on the field.

Player A has no way to know, so assuming either I) or II) is equally valid.

He then drops "The Question". B refuses to answer at all, since he does not want to give Xīs presence away and he does not want to lie.

Now A knows the following: B was unwilling to affirm Xīs presence. This is expected, since B would not want to answer affirmingly.
B was also unwilling to deny. This is relevant, since this reluctance might stem from an inhibition to lie. Most people do prefer not to lie (as is evident in this thread), so this assumption is valid and useful.

This assumption only works, to my mind, with items that are already highly likely to be in play. Someone asking whether or not my BG have the Banner of Hag Graef is a completely different issue to someone asking if my Master has the Black Dragons Egg. In case A, the theory normally holds true. In case B, it's likely the opposite result.

Assuming that player B has an item when they respond with "Maybe?" instead of nothing, is entirely player A's decision, the amount of information conveyed making neglible influence to the decision compared to prior experiences.

While B does not know for sure he now has more reason to assume that X is present. This information proves useful in planning further actions.

Assuming that this is the case, I still don't see how that gives player B the right to lie, a socially unacceptable act. :(

We could debate how much information is conveyed or that the information is neglectable, but information is conveyed after all.

Player A: Does that model have item X?
Player B: Does that model have item Y?

Player A: Does that model have item X?
Player B: It's a little expensive/cheap.

Player A: Does that model have item X?
Player B: Player C, did my guy have that item when we played? (Yes/No/I can't remember, all answers causes player A problems)

Player A: Does the model have item X?
Player B: If he did, would I have placed him in that unit/moved him there?

What do you these scenarios lead to? :angel:

~Draconian77

More dreaded filler!

Loq-Gor
28-08-2009, 05:34
Is lying wrong? Sometimes, but a blanket statement that lying is wrong always, well that's just hypocritical. Everyone has lied.
Is lying cheating? No cheating is doing what you are not allowed to do, there is no rule that disallows lying (or verbal tactical maneuvering as some might call it).
Is asking about the presence of X item cheating? Once again no, no rule no cheating. It is an attempt to gain an advantage though, there is no way to argue that.
Is the circumstance described wrong? It is a little underhanded but not necessarily wrong, as clearly the other player was trying to gain a tactical advantage.

I play with friends with available lists (open but we don't hand over lists unless requested). I also hate the idea of tournaments as I think the quickest way to end the fun of a game is to introduce an organized event. So I am unlikely to encounter this situation but I have to say I would have asked for reciprocity, he wants to know what my general has he can tell me his first. It has the benefit of redirecting the question away from the item (which I agree that a simple "I don't have to tell you that" does imply, strongly, that item X is present), while still not doing anything morally iffy.

No one has really asked the really pertinent question, what did the OP's opponent think about it.

Oh and Nurgling Chieftain the law does believe in two wrongs make a right, it's called capital punishment.

Joezombie
28-08-2009, 05:51
Lying in this regard is not cheating.
But it is bad sportsmanship.
Which I believe is against the rules... It's somewhere in the that big book...
So not "cheating" but against the rules... so...?

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 06:09
Player B: Does that model have item Y?

Player B: It's a little expensive/cheap.

Player B: Player C, did my guy have that item when we played? (Yes/No/I can't remember, all answers causes player A problems)

Player B: If he did, would I have placed him in that unit/moved him there?
All these answers have on thing in common: They do evade the original question. And as I already argued, this is contraproductive.


Assuming that this is the case, I still don't see how that gives player B the right to lie, a socially unacceptable act.
I disagree. Lies per se are not "socially unacceptable". Everybody lies their way through everyday life.

Social acceptance of lying solely depends on circumstance and intent. While it is socially permissable to lie about the taste of your girlfriends food ("Why, it tastes very good honey!") it is not acceptable to lie about your taxes.

So I argue that lying in this specific situation is indeed socially permissables since you did not originally intent to deceive anyone before "The question" was posed.



This assumption only works, to my mind, with items that are already highly likely to be in play. Someone asking whether or not my BG have the Banner of Hag Graef is a completely different issue to someone asking if my Master has the Black Dragons Egg. In case A, the theory normally holds true. In case B, it's likely the opposite result.

Assuming that player B has an item when they respond with "Maybe?" instead of nothing, is entirely player A's decision, the amount of information conveyed making neglible influence to the decision compared to prior experiences.
While I agree that knowing which items are more commonly played does help alot in guessing wether or not a particular item is actually in play, I do not see any relevance on the matter at hand.

If player B was already so sure about item X being on the field due to his experience, why did he ask?

The intent of this question is very clear: Gaining knowledge about the presence of item X.

You argue (assuming I understand you correctly of course) that player B could more easily judge the likelyhood of item X being present by refering to his experience and knowledge about which items are used more often than others, than it is to ask and gain comparatively little information.

My response would be as follows:
Player B has asked about item Xīs presence, indicating very clearly that B was unwilling or unable to solely rely on his experience and knowledge.

Therefor the amount and quality of information via experience and knowledge is irrelevant to any argument regarding the morality of lying in this specific situation at hand (B asks A "Do you have item X").


Greetz, Skalfgrimm

Nurgling Chieftain
28-08-2009, 06:18
So I argue that lying in this specific situation is indeed socially permissables since you did not originally intent to deceive anyone before "The question" was posed.This is nonsensical. The mere results of this thread are more than sufficient to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that this lie is not socially acceptable because society as such does not accept it.

That being said, I repeat my "two wrongs do not make a right" argument. You get no leeway to lie based on someone asking a leading question that you weren't required to answer, regardless of what you think of the morality of asking leading questions. It's not an act of self-defense and it's not a "white" lie, either.

Finally, the amount of information gained by the opponent not answering the question is certainly no more than by wondering aloud if they have said item while looking them in the eye.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
28-08-2009, 06:19
Well, this obviously IS cheating because you have to give your opponent correct information on your troops' equipment.

In case of Magic Items, you don't need to reveal them until they're used, but in this case the correct answer would have been just that, "I needn't tell you". If you choose to ignore this and give me any information nonetheless, it must be genuine.

Blatantly lying your opponent in the face is clearly lowest level and no good sportsmanship. This would be reason enough for me not to play against you anymore.

Cool. Let's play poker sometime.

There is no reason to truthfully answer about equipment until it is actually used or revealed- otherwise what is the point to items that reveal such secrets. This is a wargame and false info was a part of war. Just like placing assassins, fanatics, miners etc. in view even if not in your army - this is is just part of the trickery that is generally poorly represented in the game, but was a major component of warfare.

Now if you start lying about whether those unpainted orcs are normal boyz or black orcs [or the like], you are cheating.


Basicly Yes.
At least what the OP did was cheating to my mind.
He could (should) have said "wait and see" or something of that nature.
to flat out lie is just wrong.

You guys are kidding right? This is a bloody game played, generally, between friends or potential friends- of course lying about those things it is legal to lie about is not only okay, it should be expected and encouraged. I don't expect my friends to always believe me when I tell them I am going to 'cross over dribble, fake a drive to the hoop and pull at the foul line' [even though I occasional do exactly what I say just to throw them off], why would I expect an opponent to volunteer information. And, if you are going to not trust somebody because they bluffed you about something it is perfectly legal to bluff about, you have some trust issues to begin with. Comparing this is cheating is just silly.
It is like the old man at the carnival with the sign "$50 dollars to become a mind reader"- A teenager walking by, saw the sign and couldn't help but be interested, so he walked into a tent. Inside was the old man and he handed the teenager a hose.
"What do I do with this?" the teenager asked.
"Just look into the end of it."
The teenager was a bit reluctant, but eventually he looked into the hose and saw nothing but darkness. Then, he heard the old man turn on the hose and torrent of water blasted out soaking the teen.
"I knew you were going to do that." said the teen.
"That'll be $50 then." came the reply.

If you look into the hose, expect to get wet.


[COLOR="Pink"]Lying is lying. Is it cheating? SNIP

Totally and completely false. Lying is no more lying than stealing is stealing [stealing a base proves that some stealing is okay]. Deception is a part of war, so it is a valid part of wargaming. Magic items are one of the few areas where such deception can take place and so always be encouraged in these areas. This isn't real life and has no bearing on 'society' or 'faith in humanity'. The very act of playing a game means you enter into a 'magic circle' where the normal rules of society are suspended and replaced by those of game as they pertain to the game [obviously, 11 year old shouldn't be drinking just because they might be able to do so in the warhammer world]. Since the game encourages secrets, you should expect your opponent to maintain and protect those secrets [yes, even by lying] as long as the rules of the game allow him to do so. That is the point of the game.

Just like asking your opponent if he moved 7 or 8", why would you expect an honest answer when the situation and rules provide for deception?

[Note- obviously all of this applies to games between actual opponents, not learning games or the like].

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 06:47
So I argue that lying in this specific situation is indeed socially permissables since you did not originally intent to deceive anyone before "The question" was posed.
This is nonsensical. The mere results of this thread are more than sufficient to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that this lie is not socially acceptable because society as such does not accept it.
Admittedly, I should have written "lying in this specific situation should be socially acceptable".
But that does not mean that your objection has any merit.

1) My statement is an argument, meaning it is part my participatition in a debate with people who by definiton do not share my point of view.
Claiming that my argument is "nonsensical" because there are people disagreeing with it is tautological.

2) Your survey of what is morally agreeable is flawed. About a dozen people on warseer posting in this thread do by no means "prove" anything "without a doubt".



That being said, I repeat my "two wrongs do not make a right" argument. You get no leeway to lie based on someone asking a leading question that you weren't required to answer, regardless of what you think of the morality of asking leading questions. It's not an act of self-defense and it's not a "white" lie, either.
"Two wrongs do not make one right"- Generally I agree.

But in this discussion it misses the point.

The subject of this debate is the morality of lying in the situation outlined by the original poster.
In other words: We still debate wether or not this particular lie is wrong.

Therefor your "two wrongs do not make one right" has to presume the concusion of what you are trying to establish, in other words: you are begging the question.



Finally, the amount of information gained by the opponent not answering the question is certainly no more than by wondering aloud if they have said item while looking them in the eye.
I agree that you can gain information in this manner. It is certainly a comparable situation. The player who is being observed can even mislead his opponent with a good pokerface, which would bring up the question if that would be a lie, too.

B: " I wonder if there is a banner of Haeg Graef in that unit"
A flinches, although there is no banner. If he can act well enaough he might trick B. Is that a lie and is it acceptable conduct?

But while certainly interesting in itself I fail to see the relevance to the discussion at hand and I would prefer not to get sidetracked to much.

Greetz, Skalfgrimm

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 06:58
Just like asking your opponent if he moved 7 or 8", why would you expect an honest answer when the situation and rules provide for deception?

I actually disagree with this point. All of a sudden we shift from lying about privileged information your opponent is not intended to have to denying your opponent common courtesies. In fact this opens up the door to a whole realm of obvious shadiness: Is it okay to lie about your move, and not just ignore the question? Can you cover the tape measure when you move?

Bear in mind that this is a game, and you shouldn't try to gain the upper hand from opponent forgetfulness or underhandedness.

Your opponent has no right to ask for magic item information. He has a right to know what you did when he bent down to pick up the dice he dropped.

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 07:00
All these answers have on thing in common: They do evade the original question. And as I already argued, this is contraproductive.

Evading the question is not the point of those responses, especially in case A and D.

I disagree. Lies per se are not "socially unacceptable". Everybody lies their way through everyday life.

As Nurgling Chieftain says, the thread itself is enough proof to disprove that.

Social acceptance of lying solely depends on circumstance and intent. While it is socially permissable to lie about the taste of your girlfriends food ("Why, it tastes very good honey!") it is not acceptable to lie about your taxes.

So you are splitting gamers into the ones who find it acceptable and those who do not. This is fine, but I just can't fathom why someone would lie when other options are available.


While I agree that knowing which items are more commonly played does help alot in guessing wether or not a particular item is actually in play, I do not see any relevance on the matter at hand.

If player B was already so sure about item X being on the field due to his experience, why did he ask?

The intent of this question is very clear: Gaining knowledge about the presence of item X.

You are looking at this from the wrong point of view, imagine that he was pretty sure that item Z(for reference) wasn't on the field due to his prior experience. Asking the question does what for him exactly in this scenario?

You argue (assuming I understand you correctly of course) that player B could more easily judge the likelyhood of item X being present by refering to his experience and knowledge about which items are used more often than others, than it is to ask and gain comparatively little information.

Essentially correct.

My response would be as follows:
Player B has asked about item Xīs presence, indicating very clearly that B was unwilling or unable to solely rely on his experience and knowledge.

I would argue that if he doesn't have experience and knowledge behind him, the amount of information gained from asking the question in the first place is neglible.
It is very diificult to come to a conclusion without past encounters to go on.

Therefor the amount and quality of information via experience and knowledge is irrelevant to any argument regarding the morality of lying in this specific situation at hand (B asks A "Do you have item X").

That's fine and dandy, the thing I'm trying to argue against is the fact that you would advise people to lie in this situation because doing anything else provides the opposition with significant information. That doesn't ring true to me.

The morality of the question is a seperate matter, but if we agree that it's morality is debatable, then I would definately not advise people to do it! :D

~Draconian77


Fear the pink mist...

Volker the Mad Fiddler
28-08-2009, 07:06
I actually disagree with this point. All of a sudden we shift from lying about privileged information your opponent is not intended to have to denying your opponent common courtesies. In fact this opens up the door to a whole realm of obvious shadiness: Is it okay to lie about your move, and not just ignore the question? Can you cover the tape measure when you move?

Bear in mind that this is a game, and you shouldn't try to gain the upper hand from opponent forgetfulness or underhandedness.

Your opponent has no right to ask for magic item information. He has a right to know what you did when he bent down to pick up the dice he dropped.

Isn't part of the skill of game judging distances? If it isn't why do we guess ranges with cannons and not measure to see if chargers are in range before declaring charges? I would never ask an opponent how far he moved or if he deployed right on the 12" line because that is info that is factored into how well I can judge distance.
By the same token, I wouldn't move if the opponent wasn't watching [unless it was friend who I knew wouldn't care], but I wouldn't care if he made his moves while I was doing something else. I don't feel I have any right to know exactly what my opponent did because I will just assume it was legal and play the game based on the information available to my senses. Maybe I just don't take the game as seriously as some people, so these things don't bug me.

T10
28-08-2009, 07:37
Here's a somewhat different exchange with a different player that gave an uncannily similar result...

During deployment:

Player: "Hey, you didn't bring that bad-ass Slayer character this time, did you? The one you always take?"

Me: "Oh, he's on walk-about!"

Intended meaning: "I just deployed him right there for all to see, a good distance away from the main bulk of my army."

Taken to mean: "No."

Mercutius
28-08-2009, 07:48
One of the most fun parts of the game are at the same time the parts that cause the most problems: Moving and positioning of your Units. You can gain an advantage if you take yourself here an half inch or there some degrees of rotating, even when you were finishid with this unit. So for that kind of games it is absolutly important that you can be shure that your opponent works always correct. And now you have an opponent who has lied to you. Can you trust him in all the other ways? If he has two wizzards, with the same items but one special. Are you shure that the lier does'nt move that Item from wizzard to wizzard where it is possible the most needet until it is rely shown in the game?

This game can _not_ work fair and with fun for both sides if one side is lying!

On the starting situation: its easy: don't tell it, or IMO the best solution: trade that information for something you want to know. Ask your opponent then for a special Item. I would do it that way. If I anserd the initial question but would not get an answer to my own, the game would be over at that point. Even on a tornament! Bad sportmanship points for the opponent and then a nice two hour break for a coffee and for watching other good and _fair_ games!

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 07:48
Evading the question is not the point of those responses, especially in case A and D.
But they still do. Anything else is simply irrelevant to the given situation, because it does not influence the morality of the lie, which I believe is the core of this debate, since I cannot think of any other reason to object my proposition of simply lying than moral objections.



As Nurgling Chieftain says, the thread itself is enough proof to disprove that.
Please refer to my previous post- I have already adressed that particular logical fallacy.



So you are splitting gamers into the ones who find it acceptable and those who do not. This is fine, but I just can't fathom why someone would lie when other options are available.
You misunderstood. I was merely poining out that lying is not inherently wrong or right, but that it depends on the situation and intent of the lie.

And I cannot fathom why you would outright object the very notion of lying.
Am I not correct in assuming that you do this out or moral reasoning?

By the way: I am not splitting anyone, people tend to manage that quite well themselves ;).



You are looking at this from the wrong point of view, imagine that he was pretty sure that item Z(for reference) wasn't on the field due to his prior experience. Asking the question does what for him exactly in this scenario?
I believe you are missing the point. When it does so little, why ask at all?

But our hypothetical scenario already assumes that he asked, so any prior consideration is neglectable.



I would argue that if he doesn't have experience and knowledge behind him, the amount of information gained from asking the question in the first place is neglible.
It is very diificult to come to a conclusion without past encounters to go on.
Again, why then aks at all? The act of asking indicates a desire for more information, does it not? If so, why would someone need more information, if not because the already available information seems inadequate?



That's fine and dandy, the thing I'm trying to argue against is the fact that you would advise people to lie in this situation because doing anything else provides the opposition with significant information. That doesn't ring true to me.
On what particular point do you object? Merely on the significance or on the conveying of information as a whole?

If you only argue against the significance, then again: Why did he ask if the information he could gain is insignificant (assuming he knew the rules and did accordingly not expect you to answer truthfully).



The morality of the question is a seperate matter, but if we agree that it's morality is debatable, then I would definately not advise people to do it!
I would argue that it is not seperate matter, as I briefly did above.

The initial question was "Is lying in this situation cheating?". Defining cheating as breaking the rules and establishing that there is no rule against lying the discussion moved then on to wether or not this particular lie is acceptable/ of good sportsmanship.

Since I already established that lies themselves are not inherently "wrong" or "objectionable" but dependant on circumstance, I proposed that lying in this situation is advisable, since it is a more beneficial course of action than either telling the truth or not answering at all.

This has been objected, and the only reason I see is the question wether or not this articular lie is right or wrong. Ergo a question of morality.

Let us call it "wargame philosophy", or since many people seem so fond of these stupid contractions: "Philosohyhammer":p


Greetz, Skalfgrimm

EDIT: @ Merkutius:
Please note that I and many other s are only referring to the described situation (one player directly asking another player for information that he is not entitled to).

You seem to be inferring that a person who would lie in the described circumstance would also be lying on other occasions.

Needless to say this is an erratic jufgement. There are many precedents in daily life for permissable lies which clearly show that the morality of lying is highly circumstantial. You would not assume that someone who lies to you about his health ("Oh I am fine, thank you", despite having a nasty headache and simply not wanting to talk about it) would also lie to you when he is playing warhammer with you, would you?

Mercutius
28-08-2009, 08:10
@Skalfgrimm: No, of course not! It's only in game terms what bothers me. The table top game is an environment about fun and having a good time. Free time, in most cases. I don't want to have to think about 'lies' in my gaming environment, because as you correctly statet out, there is already to much laying in the 'real life'. :-). Hope that clears it a little bit.

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 08:48
But they still do. Anything else is simply irrelevant to the given situation, because it does not influence the morality of the lie, which I believe is the core of this debate, since I cannot think of any other reason to object my proposition of simply lying than moral objections.

By your own admission the above is a falsehood.
You advise people to lie because;


I proposed that lying in this situation is advisable, since it is a more beneficial course of action than either telling the truth or not answering at all.

Ergo, if we find that lying is not more beneficial than telling the truth or not answering(or answering with a question of your own, etc, etc) then this is entirely relevant. There are two seperate parts to this debate that I can see;

A: Is the person asking the question aslways receiving significant information?
(Aka: Are they actually gaining an advantage?)
B: Is lying as a response to the question morally acceptable.

I believe that the answers to both of these questions are "No".

Please refer to my previous post- I have already adressed that particular logical fallacy.

I'm sorry to say, but that's simply your opinion. I'm still of the opinion that lying in this situation is indeed wrong. (Socially unacceptable)

You misunderstood. I was merely poining out that lying is not inherently wrong or right, but that it depends on the situation and intent of the lie.

I didn't misunderstand at all. I'm addressing the fact that you think that lying in this situation is justified, not that all lies are inherently unjustifiable! :D

And I cannot fathom why you would outright object the very notion of lying.
Am I not correct in assuming that you do this out or moral reasoning?

Not to the notion of lying, to the notion of lying under these circumstances.

Or to put it another way;

I cannot fathom why you would outright support the notion of lying.
Am I correct in assuming that you do this out of moral reasoning?
:angel:

I believe you are missing the point. When it does so little, why ask at all?

I'm trying to establish whether asking the question always provides you with an advantage. In the situation presented, it's clear that it does not. Therefore: lying in that situation wouldn't be supported by yourself(assumption), as you advise it only as way to avoid giving up information.(?)

Again, why then aks at all? The act of asking indicates a desire for more information, does it not? If so, why would someone need more information, if not because the already available information seems inadequate?

Again, true. But you cannot say with certainty that asking would actually be of any benefit. To put it bluntly, I disagree with your second post. It disregarded too many variables to be accurate.

On what particular point do you object? Merely on the significance or on the conveying of information as a whole?

Partly.

If you only argue against the significance, then again: Why did he ask if the information he could gain is insignificant (assuming he knew the rules and did accordingly not expect you to answer truthfully).

There is always the chance that you tell him and the difference between 90% certainty and 100% certainty is quite a large one. Maybe he was fishing for other information? Maybe he was hoping that you would offer him a beneficial exchange of information. (the "Option A" I presented last post)

There are numerous reasons for someone to pose the question, even with an insignificant amount of information to be gained.

I would argue that it is not seperate matter, as I briefly did above.

Well, if you don't see two points to this debate, then you aren't reading the same posts as I. :p

The initial question was "Is lying in this situation cheating?". Defining cheating as breaking the rules and establishing that there is no rule against lying the discussion moved then on to wether or not this particular lie is acceptable/ of good sportsmanship.


Lying in this regard is not cheating.
But it is bad sportsmanship.
Which I believe is against the rules... It's somewhere in the that big book...
So not "cheating" but against the rules... so...?

From Joezombie, your views on this?

Since I already established that lies themselves are not inherently "wrong" or "objectionable" but dependant on circumstance, I proposed that lying in this situation is advisable, since it is a more beneficial course of action than either telling the truth or not answering at all.

To be fair, that sort of reasoning is flawed isn't it? A murderer telling a copper that he didn't murder someone because that's of more benefit to him doesn't make the lie morally correct...Maybe defining morally acceptable lies and morally unacceptable ones would be a good first step? (If a tad laborious...)

Let us call it "wargame philosophy", or since many people seem so fond of these stupid contractions: "Philosohyhammer":p

Wargame philosophy? Isn't that essentially what ~sportsmanship~ is? :D

~Draconian77



...
....
I ran out of things to say.

DeathlessDraich
28-08-2009, 08:54
Not really all that much of a rules question, but a question of morality and convention. Is it ok to blatantly lie to your opponent about your "army secrets"?

Last evening an old gaming story re-surfaced. During deployment of our units, my opponent pointed at one of my characters:

Me: "... I lied."

-T10

Hello T10.
I'm not at these forums very much these days but since an opinion is sought, here's mine.

1) Lying and deceit (in general) is wrong under most circumstances but is sometimes necessary e.g. to be polite or to be kind.

2) In the game above:
As on all questions on morality, it depends on circumstances. Somehow I feel T10 and his opponent had a laugh and joked about the incident after the game. Most players facing a Templar Grand Master will expect him to have Laurels of Victory.

3) Applying the incident in general
It depends on knowledge of the tacit rules of Warhammer. - There are no written rules as to what should/must or should/must not be revealed.

A beginner will not know what should or should not be revealed and a polite reminder/explanation that he (or his opponent) does not have to reveal magic items etc
may be necessary because 'thats common game etiquette'.

An experienced player asking (or trying to elict) his experienced opponent's magic items etc is just being cheeky (possibly in a jovial way if not insidious).
:)

Grupax
28-08-2009, 10:17
I always lie before a battle, by saying "I wish you good luck"
jk, I don't say that :angel:
I just strategicly say "have fun, and break a legg" -or the backbone of your army

what I meant to say, yes lying is cheating, and everyone cheats once in a while (at least in casual games ;).
-anyways, there's nothing in the rules against cheating

Skalfgrimm
28-08-2009, 10:20
A: Is the person asking the question aslways receiving significant information?
(Aka: Are they actually gaining an advantage?)
B: Is lying as a response to the question morally acceptable.

I believe that the answers to both of these questions are "No".
Oh, now I see where you are coming from when you talk about 2 seperate topics. My apologies.

As for A: Are they gaining an advantage.
Yes, they are- if you are not lying you will convey information that is advantageous.

Admittedly, one can "trade" information, but that is highly circumstantial- what if you already know all relevant equipment of your enemy? What if the requested information is too valuable to give up?

And even if you do trade, the opposition does gain an advantage: Knowing what he asked for.

How about I restate my initial argument like this:

In the described situation, lying is the most beneficial course of action if your intention is not to offer any advantageous information.

I do agree that in the right conditions trading information can be the better choice.


And for B: Please elaborate why you think so. A pure statement of opinion is hard to be debated.

Let me try to sum up why I do not think that the lie in this particular scenario is immoral:
The lie is admissable, since the circumstances are a trivial game and no "real" damage like financial loss, physical harm etc is likely to result of it.
Furthermore the intent of the lie is not "deceptive" in nature, the liar does not actively seek to mislead his opponent, but merely "defends" himself against an unjustified inquiry in the fashion of his choosing.
An opponent who asks for information that he is not entitled to does not have the right to demand a truthful answer.



I'm sorry to say, but that's simply your opinion. I'm still of the opinion that lying in this situation is indeed wrong. (Socially unacceptable)
And here (here being your backing of nurgling chieftainīs argument I responded to) you are factually wrong, I am sorry to say.
As I already explained, Nurgling Chieftainīs argument was a tautology, a logical fallacy, meaning he states the obvious. It has nothing to do with my opinion.
People disagreeing with me is an inherent property of a debate. Saying my argument about what think should be morally acceptable is invalid because people disagree in a debate is logically flawed, because there is no real information in that counterargument. All it says is: People disagree with you, which is like calling the sky blue: Quite obvious and superfluous.



I'm trying to establish whether asking the question always provides you with an advantage. In the situation presented, it's clear that it does not. Therefore: lying in that situation wouldn't be supported by yourself(assumption), as you advise it only as way to avoid giving up information.(?)
Well, now that my argument is amended: Yes, lying is in this case only the best choice if your priority is not to give up information.

"In the situation presented, itīs clear that it does not."
Curious. Even going over the thread again I do not find any argument supporting this. How is it "clear" that player B asking about item Xīs presence does not provide B with an advantage?

He will either get the requested information, be it because A simply tells him or maybe they "trade" information etc.
Or he will infer by Aīs dodging the question that A is unwilling to lie and therefore gain information.

Or A lies and B gets no (advantageous) information at all.

If A sees no better way to use the situation to his own advantage whatsoever and is intending to keep as much information concealed as possible, would you agree that lying is the most beneficial course of action?
Speaking purely hypothetical and irregarding the moral aspect.


As to wether or not asking the question provides advantages: It is very clear that it has the potential to be advantageous. As long as you do not lie the opposition will gain some information which in turn can be advantageous.



From Joezombie, your views on this?
Logical fallacy- his argument (lies are bad sportmanship-> bad sportsmanship is against the rules) depends entirely on his assumption "lies* are bad sportsmanship". It has no merit as long as he does not back this up with further arguments as to why this particular lie is bad sportsmanship.

*: Of course I am only refering to this particular scenario, not lying in general. Lying about unit stats, special rules etc IS bad sportsmanship...




To be fair, that sort of reasoning is flawed isn't it? A murderer telling a copper that he didn't murder someone because that's of more benefit to him doesn't make the lie morally correct...Maybe defining morally acceptable lies and morally unacceptable ones would be a good first step? (If a tad laborious...)
You misread me in the sentence you quoted. I said the lie is more "advantageous", not "more moral". And yes, the murderer would benefit from lying about being a murderer.

And the analogy is a bit over the top, isnīt it?
On the one hand lying during a specific situation in a wargame, and on the other lying about murder.

But yes, a murderer lying about his murder is morally acceptable and even expected. The accused may even lie before court and is not obligated to say anything that might help convict him. At least here in Germany it is like that.


Defining morally acceptable lies? Is that not exactly what we are doing here? :P



Wargame philosophy? Isn't that essentially what ~sportsmanship~ is?
No no, it is squabbling over sportsmanship on the internet :D

kramplarv
28-08-2009, 10:59
Just to open a certain box...

I do not think lying is morally wrong at all. When someone get fooled, shame on them.

Izram
28-08-2009, 11:22
Lying isn't cheating in this case
Can't say it is morally wrong either, as a moral code is subjective.
Most people hold dishonesty as against their moral code.

It all comes down to how you want to do things. Do you want to be the guy who lies when you play him? The guy who prefers clipping and will never let you slide even a bit for gameplay smoothness? The guy who bitches and moans when your models arnt 100% WYSIWYG even if you explain them to him? The guy who giggles when you move and mocks your play during the game? The guy who moves his models without measuring? These things arn't illegal per se, but you look like a jerk (because you are a jerk when you do them).

If you don't give a toss what people think of you and you play in tournaments where people cant turn you down for a game, then there is no reason not to lie I suppose. You choose the type of person you are. I am not saying that lying in warhammer makes you a dishonest bastard in your life in general. But in your gaming store, or in the tournament circuit you play in, you have a reputation.

I personally never wanted to be "that guy".

If someone has the stones to come out and ask me information that I downright shouldn't give him, I happily tell him the truth (I sometimes will subtly mock him and tell him truthfully all the magic items my characters have and any special rules units have). Doesn't he feel silly when he still gets messed up by something he knew well in advance? Someone had said that surprising your opponent is half the game; I think surprise is a cheap thrill. Beat your opponent because you are a better player; not because they didn't expect something obscure.

Hypaspist
28-08-2009, 12:18
"Is Lying Cheating"
Amongst the definitions of cheating is to practice fraud or deceipt, so 'technically' yes.

There is the wider moral question of is it less wrong than asking about the hidden magic items in the first place, which is probably what this thread is *more* geared towards.

I understand the direction where some points are being made from (Skalfgrimm), however there is one thing to consider.

Lying about a magic item when questioned in this way will reduce your credibility when this comes to light. This, will in turn have wider implications against you as a player.
(the below pertains to tournament play if you *REALLY* care that much about every single tiny advantage you can get your hands on, in casual play I would alwyas provide info when requested)
It would be far better (in my opinion) to avoid the question through humour, "I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours" or point blank refuse to answer the question on the basis of, "that information is currently classified".

addressing the points about the person asking, either they are interested, or they wish to derive tactical advantage. if a) decide whether you want to share, if b) minimise their advantage whilst keeping your credibility.
Lying is technically (a definition of) cheating as you are deceiving someone, asides from which, this is a game of toy soldiers and lets be honest, if you feel you have to lie at playing toy soldiers...... well suffice to say I am a competetive person, but there is a place where we all feel we need to draw the line, lying at Toy Soldiers is definitely for me somewhere over that line.

Draconian77
28-08-2009, 12:27
Oh, now I see where you are coming from when you talk about 2 seperate topics. My apologies.

As for A: Are they gaining an advantage.
Yes, they are- if you are not lying you will convey information that is advantageous.

Sigh...you keep saying this but I haven't seen any proof. To my mind, player B being vague or asking a counter-question adds nothing upon which player A can base his decisions on, at least not in any meaningful way.(Assumption: Player A is experienced.) A question posed during a game of Warhammer is normally asked to reaffirm a suspicion. If you already thought that X had Y, then posing the question and receiving the normal response is wasted breath.

Admittedly, one can "trade" information, but that is highly circumstantial- what if you already know all relevant equipment of your enemy? What if the requested information is too valuable to give up?

It is unlikely that you would know every item in your opponents army list.
As for case #2, how likely is it that they will say "I don't want to tell you it's too important!", and then proceed to ask you the original question again? More than that, if you ask a specific question rather than a general one, you place player A in the same position player B was in a moment ago.

And even if you do trade, the opposition does gain an advantage: Knowing what he asked for.

To my mind that advantage would be somewhat migitated by the fact that you also now have a piece of information to plan around. (Surely?)

How about I restate my initial argument like this:

In the described situation, lying is the most beneficial course of action if your intention is not to offer any advantageous information.

See to my mind, you still don't give away and advantageous information by being vague about a (regular) item or asking a (specific/general) counter question. If we can't agree on this, the rest of the argument is sort of pointless.

Let me try to sum up why I do not think that the lie in this particular scenario is immoral:
The lie is admissable, since the circumstances are a trivial game and no "real" damage like financial loss, physical harm etc is likely to result of it.
Furthermore the intent of the lie is not "deceptive" in nature, the liar does not actively seek to mislead his opponent, but merely "defends" himself against an unjustified inquiry in the fashion of his choosing.
An opponent who asks for information that he is not entitled to does not have the right to demand a truthful answer.

He defends himself by misleading someone intentionally...that's a pretty clear cut case of misleading someone intentionally. ^^ That to my mind, also rests upon the slippery slope. I wouldn't want to see lying in a game where trust is an essential factor. I'm also against lying when other alternatives are available(Third time I've said this...) but that is a personal code of course.

And here (here being your backing of nurgling chieftainīs argument I responded to) you are factually wrong, I am sorry to say.
As I already explained, Nurgling Chieftainīs argument was a tautology, a logical fallacy, meaning he states the obvious. It has nothing to do with my opinion.

I'm really hoping that that was a joke. My opinion is not wrong, cannot be wrong will never be wrong, by defination. My disagreement with your; "Lie if it's of advantage to you." policy may be obvious, but that does not make it wrong.


In the situation presented, itīs clear that it does not.

Curious. Even going over the thread again I do not find any argument supporting this. How is it "clear" that player B asking about item Xīs presence does not provide B with an advantage?

Case 1: Item X present. (X = Regular, often used item.)

Experienced player A asks the question knowing that X is indeed present. (Fishing for other info, hoping to reach 100% certainty rather than 95%, hoping for an information exchange.)

Answering vaguely; No advantage gained by player A. (Experience says "Yes")
Answering specificly; Advantage gained by player A. (Facts say "Yes")
Answering specificly with additionals; Advantage gained by player A. (Experience says "Yes")
Answering with a counter question; Advantage to no one. (Maybe an information trade, maybe a deadlock because player A doesn't wish to give up information.)

Case 2: Item Y present. (Y = Irregular, rarely used item-> I like to call them "niche" items.)

Experienced player A asks the question unsure of whether Y is present. Answering vaguely; Advantage to player B. (Experience tells A the niche item isn't present.)
Answering specificly; Advantage player A. (Facts confirm.)
Answering vaguely/specificly with additionals; Advantage to B. (Experience will tell him it's not present.)
Answering with a counter question; Advantage no one, although an information exchange could see player B come out on top. (Awareness of a good item vs awareness of a niche item.)

If you replaced "experienced" with "inexperienced" then the answers get a little more jumbled in both cases: depending on whether or not player B wishes to capitilise against a rookie.


He will either get the requested information, be it because A simply tells him or maybe they "trade" information etc.
Or he will infer by Aīs dodging the question that A is unwilling to lie and therefore gain information.

My chart says differently. ^^


If A sees no better way to use the situation to his own advantage whatsoever and is intending to keep as much information concealed as possible, would you agree that lying is the most beneficial course of action?
Speaking purely hypothetical and irregarding the moral aspect.

Asking a for an information exchange always seems to be the most advantageous route, because you can bend the terms of the agreement at will. If you desire you can cause the agreement to collapse(asking for unfair terms).
Likelihood of the original question being posed again? Very slim. (This isn't even taking into account putting player A into player B's situation.):angel:

As to wether or not asking the question provides advantages: It is very clear that it has the potential to be advantageous. As long as you do not lie the opposition will gain some information which in turn can be advantageous.

That doesn't ring true though does it?

Player A: Does that Dreadlord have X?
Player B: Does that Vampire Lord have Y?

Where is the advantage to player A?

Logical fallacy- his argument (lies are bad sportmanship-> bad sportsmanship is against the rules) depends entirely on his assumption "lies* are bad sportsmanship". It has no merit as long as he does not back this up with further arguments as to why this particular lie is bad sportsmanship.

I think I've taken enough stabs at that particular throat. It's in my earlier posts and probably this one too. :D However, you have allowed me to say this; This acknowledges the fact that to anyone who considers lying to be bad sportsmanship(or even bad in general) will be likely to consider this against the rules. If something can even be considered against the rules, should it be allowed in general play?

I find it interesting that you think that he needs proof of the lie being bad sportsmanship. That's incorrect. All he needs is a code that tells him that it is incorrect. Flip your argument on it's head and you have; You need to prove that this lie isn't unsporting. Again, you cannot prove it beyond a shaodw of a doubt, you can only tell us what you believe.

*: Of course I am only refering to this particular scenario, not lying in general. Lying about unit stats, special rules etc IS bad sportsmanship...

Some players don't see the difference. (Both are intentially misleading, although I think the rational amongst them would be able to differentiate between the severity of the different cases. ;))

You misread me in the sentence you quoted. I said the lie is more "advantageous", not "more moral".

But you did claim earlier that the defensive nature of the lie made it morally ok to you, therefore you are saying that this lie is both. :D

And the analogy is a bit over the top, isnīt it?
On the one hand lying during a specific situation in a wargame, and on the other lying about murder.

I do tend to exaggerate...but this whole argument just seems so darn odd.

Essentially it's: Someone asked a fairly harmless question whilst playing a game of toy soldiers, his opponent(despite having other avenues available to him)chose to lie in order to intentionally mislead his opponent in said game of toy soldiers.

That doesn't look strange to you?

Defining morally acceptable lies? Is that not exactly what we are doing here?

True enough...I did sort of mean in general. For example, over here, a guilty murderer proclaiming his innocence and lying in court would be accused of spouting immoral lies.

No no, it is squabbling over sportsmanship on the internet.

:D Fair enough, philosophy-hammer it is.

Still Draconian77

So there you have it folks, the birth of philosophy-hammer! :eek:

xragg
28-08-2009, 12:31
I feel if you tell me a character has a magic item, and he doesnt, that is cheating. It makes no difference if the person asked you or not. If you state a model has something, then it has it.

There is nothing wrong with eluding your character has something though. For example, as I move my lord around I state, "It sure is going to hurt if my lord has (item A)."

Just because you dont have to disclose information, doesnt mean your allowed to lie. You can easily answer, "he could have magic item A, or maybe he has magic item B, or whatever."

Should I start every game stating so-and-so has the ring of hotek, irregardless of whether he does. Its pretty sad if trading lies back and forth is considered good sportsmanship and even a fun game.

EvC
28-08-2009, 12:58
Here's a somewhat different exchange with a different player that gave an uncannily similar result...

During deployment:

Player: "Hey, you didn't bring that bad-ass Slayer character this time, did you? The one you always take?"

Me: "Oh, he's on walk-about!"

Intended meaning: "I just deployed him right there for all to see, a good distance away from the main bulk of my army."

Taken to mean: "No."

So you don't actually tell people what your models are as you deploy them? I hope your opponents never have to go the bathroom (or bar) during your games, I dread to think what you get up to whilst they're away from the table.

I think this could be the biggest loss of respect since one poster's thread that was basically asking for trick ways to roll dice to get more 6s...

N810
28-08-2009, 13:04
Why Yes ... Yes it is. ;)

rtunian
28-08-2009, 13:16
This is nonsensical. The mere results of this thread are more than sufficient to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that this lie is not socially acceptable because society as such does not accept it.

That being said, I repeat my "two wrongs do not make a right" argument. You get no leeway to lie based on someone asking a leading question that you weren't required to answer, regardless of what you think of the morality of asking leading questions. It's not an act of self-defense and it's not a "white" lie, either.

Finally, the amount of information gained by the opponent not answering the question is certainly no more than by wondering aloud if they have said item while looking them in the eye.

warseer posters are not a sample of society.

if you sampled society, you would find that wargamers are a minority.
if you sampled warseer, you would find that wargamers are the only group.

if you think that society has a problem with lying, you are wow... very naive. maybe it's not your fault. maybe your little area of the world is really full of upstanding perfectly moral citizens. mine isn't.

i live in america, where 92% of our politicians are liars, 119% of advertisements are lies, and 524% of statistics are made up. i get over 50 lies in my email every day. i can't take three steps down the street without tripping over a liar. there is at least 1 lie in every half hour of programmed television (not including ads, talking about tv characters).

also...
you can glean information out of someone who does not give a verbal answer. it's called body language, people, and you speak it all the time. not answering "the question" verbally is not necessarily preventing an answer from being expressed.

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 13:17
Place in context.

"Honey, I going out to buy milk (and not hit on your sister) ..."

"I swear to tell the truth ..."

"Sure, my hand is better than yours ..."

It also depends to whom you're answering, how your response was and under what conditions. If someone asked me if one of my units carried the War Banner, I could tell him it's actually the Battle Banner; anyone familiar with my list would know I'm not telling the truth, and that it is an obvious lie on my part. The questioner isn't fooled and understands such questions can not be asked nor should they be answered.

Some newcomer to the hobby about to face me, asks that question and you know that he will take the answer at face value, that is wrong.

Then you have plenty of ground in between, It is wrong to lie if the questioner doesn't understand the game that's in progress, even before the first move is made.

McMullet
28-08-2009, 13:29
There seems to be a big focus here on one small possibility - that the question, "Does [unit] have " as was asked in a situation where the asker [I]knew that that information should not be available to them. Closed lists are one way to play the Warhamsterz, and the nature of certain spells/items certainly suggests that magic items should not be declared in advance. However, someone asking the question is not necessarily fishing for information they should not be privy to. They may well not fully understand the nature of this convention or they may be accustomed to playing with open lists. A strong rebuke is in order if they have explicitly agreed to and understood the convention; otherwise, all that is required is to politely explain the rules. In either case, a rebuke or clarification skirts around the problem of answering the question. ;)

As I said in my earlier post: whether it's OK or not really depends on the situation. Once can get away with a lot of good-natured banter with one's friends, whilst lying to a stranger like that would be right off side.


As a side note. Playing with closed lists, it is the choice of the player when he reveals what magic items he has. Once you state that the Grand Master has no Laurels of Victory, he has no Laurels of Victory, regardless of what's written on your list; if the opponent can't see the list, he has to go on your word. Saying later on that he does have said item is not lying, it is changing your armylist half way through a game. That IS cheating.

Grupax
28-08-2009, 13:44
any reason this topic isn't posted in "WAY OF TOPIC", instead of "fantasy"
you guys here just like to debate too much :p

if you know you've got a devious opponent
just ask what basic surprises his units can have, berhaps have a quick look in his army book, browse quickly through the magic items, and you could get an idea of what to expect...
Basicly don't get fooled

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 13:49
There's no rule that says you can't lie about stuff that's confidential, but it can reflect on your sportsmanship.

Grupax
28-08-2009, 13:52
@Condottiere: spot on

Dokushin
28-08-2009, 14:11
Lying is not forbidden by the rules. Neither is threatening to strangle the other person if they attack you, or screaming loudly every time they do something that you don't like.

Interaction between people should never be defined by what is permissible. Social contracts exist because standards must be held for people to function effectively as a group.

Lying is never excusable, full stop. It is always a result of an attempt to gain at someone else's expense. It is a selfish act. It's one we all participate in, sure, but it is also something to be avoided.

The technicalities of "lying" vs. "cheating" are not relevant. Lying to your opponent in a game of Warhammer is the very definition of WAAC. If you're ok with that, you're not going to see any reason to change it. Indeed, if your opponent is ok with it, it could make for interesting games. But trying to determine whether it is cheating or not is missing the point.

mr_vespa
28-08-2009, 14:24
As a side note. Playing with closed lists, it is the choice of the player when he reveals what magic items he has. Once you state that the Grand Master has no Laurels of Victory, he has no Laurels of Victory, regardless of what's written on your list; if the opponent can't see the list, he has to go on your word. Saying later on that he does have said item is not lying, it is changing your armylist half way through a game. That IS cheating.

I'm with McMullet here. Stating that your character *does not* have a certain item with closed lists means your opponent is forced to abide by your word. Lying about a unit's build isn't, like most people are saying, 'cheating' per se. However, purposely misleading your opponent into thinking your Lord/Hero choice has X and Y items, but actually has Z, or denying their use with a straight face is something I personally consider very low. Being told that an item is in play, and revealing that it's not, or vice-versa, greatly affects my appreciation of players.

I'd rather not say a word, get into combat and then get a classic "Oh, by the way chum, he has [...]". I'd expect my opponents to follow something in the same lines, respecting some form of 'etiquette' between players.

Not revealing information is the basis of this game, and leads to surprising twists that make WHFB so fun IMO. Misleading in the hopes of denying the same information, or masking it, just makes playing against that person that much less enjoyable.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-08-2009, 14:35
After reading his arguments I also feel inclined to agree with McMullet as well.

Calibretto
28-08-2009, 14:53
I didnt read the whole thread (read 2 pages) so maybe this has been covered but someone tell me how answering player A's question puts you at a disadvantage?

Player A: Hey is that a "Lord Type X"?

Player B: Yes

Player A: Nice. Did you give him the old (awesome item combo) combo?

Player B: Maybe

Unless:

a: You're the type who wears their heart on their sleeve
b: Said character only has one valid item combo
C: You ALWAYS take the same combo (which you can use to your advantage by switching up)

You are now at an advantage. If they believe you have this combo and you dont (a good reason to use different items) they are at a tactical disadvantage. If you do it doesnt affect anything because they already had assumed you had it. If you like to switch stuff up then they will be unsure and will make more mistakes and tentative actions, react to your characters deployments trying to figure out what they have. It can only be an advantage for you to answer nebulously not a disadvantage. Assuming of course none of the three exceptions above apply. On a side note, lying is wrong and if you outright lied about what a character had (and i may well ask jokingly so this situation doesnt necessarily apply to me) i would think twice about playing you again. Just my opinion of course.

Jagged
28-08-2009, 15:00
Why are supposing that this person is trying to STEAL information? If they are used to knowing what everyone is equipped with, then they are just playing the way the normally play. And the fact remains that the other person is in no way forced to share the information! This bullcrap about "stealing" information is ridiculous, the rules says you don't have to share it. It does not say that it is illegal to share it, or to attempt to get it from your opponent by asking. Even if it was against the rules to ask your opponent if their character is carrying items A and B, which it is not, why in the world would you think that someone breaking a rule justifies your own rule breaking?

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me glad I mostly play with friends at my home, where the object of the game is to have a good time and try to beat the opponent based on generalship.

Lying is wrong, and the fact that we're even having this ridiculous argument just shows what a sorry state we're all in.

This is the perfect answer.

Nightsword
28-08-2009, 15:02
All the social analysis is great fun to read. Re-reading the OP's post, I'm actually quite shocked. First line:

"Is it ok to blatantly lie to your opponent about your "army secrets"?"

Disregarding the story that went with it, no, no it's not ok "to blatantly lie." That's lying to decieve against the spirit of the game and sportsmanship. To me this is cheating, rather than giving your opponent an unfair advantage, you're giving yourself one. The templar grand master is suddenly less dangerous in the eyes of your competitor. Is that fair? No. Is it good sportsmanship in a game? No, it's not. (this isn't war!!! whoever said that deception is part of war and could therefore be used in a war*game* is an ejit. Shooting you in the face is acceptable in war!)

Secondpoint, the competitors had no need to ask the question, he is in fact seeking an advantage where one isn't normally found without some magic item that allows you to do so. This too is wrong. If you were playing in a closed list situation, then you wouldn't of thought he'd have asked. In an open list, the easiest thing to do is swap a written list with your opponent and deal with the *game* that way. Or agree to play in good spirit and keep your secrets to yourself with a "I don't have to tell you that."

Thirdly, the argument of saying "no" over "I don't have to tell you that." IMO, the latter is still the best way and still convey's the least amount of information, contrary to some points that have been made.

The competitor had asked whether the templar grand master has the sword of power and laurels of victory. The OP has said no. That confirms to the opponent, whether true or not, that the grand master doesn't have those items, which has taken two variables out of the equation. It's told him that the grand master probably has a different combination of mundane or magic equipment and not the combo he was perhaps wary of. Whether you were telling him the truth or not, you've told the opponent that your grand master is equipped differently from a select number of combinations. If you were truthful, you've given him an advantage but if you've lied, you've given yourself an advantage. Now this of course lends itself to the situation of whether you can ask a question back. If he refuses, then this too is against the spirit of the game. The easiest and safest way to play is with "i don't have to tell you".

Saying "I don't have to tell you that" actually confirms nothing. The opponent is none the wiser than before he asked the question. He obviously made the supposition when he saw the grand master that he'd have that selection of the equipment and you've neither confirmed, denied or manipulated the situation into letting him think otherwise. If the opponent is idiotic enough to take "i don't have to tell you" as yes, then he is just that; idiotic. But, he'd already thought that's what you had before and he still doesn't know for sure. Telling him "no" takes away that doubt, the same doubt he had before the question, and distorts the game. It's not a great start for what is supposed to be a friendly game.

Whether lying in everyday life is acceptable is irrelevant to me because we are dealing with a specific and unique situation which may bear similarities to other events or games but which are not wholly identical. In my view, in this particular case, and in fact in the games of fantasy, 40K and LOTR, lying is cheating. You're not trying to protect your girlfriend from finding out her clothes look ridiculous on her, you're not trying to prevent your son going down for murder, and you're not trying to stop a girl from finding out you take pictures of her through her window. What you are doing is trying to gain an advantage by manipulating and distorting the situation through underhand tactics whether the whole thing should have happened or not. It would have only taken a "you can't ask me that" to put the situation right and answer the question that shouldn't have been asked and the OP must have felt a slight pang or guilt for him to question what he'd in fact said as a response. I think he therefore knows deepdown he was wrong to do so. It in fact twisted and distorted the game, and is therefore, in my eyes and my opinion, cheating.

GodSlayer
28-08-2009, 15:36
This looks like it's turning out into: 'Is lying bad?'

Of what I'm seeing, those who don't want a lie will not ask 'grey' questions. (Is there X in Y?)
Those who ask might be rule lawers. Being frustrated that they were fooled.
And then, the ones who asks, for an advantage, that would lie if they where on the other side.

But instead of saying 'I lied', what if you said 'Well, you seemed disapointed that I did'nt put them. I changed my mind.'

siphon101
28-08-2009, 15:41
Punching your opponent isn't necessarily cheating, it's assault. Lying isn't necessarily cheating, but it's still lying.

no, it's battery :p

Gazak Blacktoof
28-08-2009, 15:59
T10, I'd have just told the player that he'd find out later, and maybe given them a sly wink if I was feeling generous.

If the player was new or normally plays with an open list I can see why they might get very cross at your lie.

Really there's no reason to ever lie (in a game of warhammer).

So I don't know if you "cheated" but I'd say you were being a bit of a git.

N810
28-08-2009, 16:13
If you are doing something thats likely to get you kicked in the nuts later...
you are probaly cheating.

mr_vespa
28-08-2009, 16:15
If you are doing something thats likely to get you kicked in the nuts later...
you are probaly cheating.

Or punched in the jeans :p
Note kids, don't wear jeans when you play Warhammer :evilgrin:

gdsora
28-08-2009, 16:32
Wow, I Find the that the lie is completely fine.

No matter what, for a closed list, you should never ask what magic items they have if they have not already been undisclosed.

I have played many games, and seen many games where people have asked what the players what magic items they have on characters. (Closed List games)

Any response will give hints, and anyone capable of reading body language can gleam information from that person.


If you asked something about something you should not have, you should be prepared to deal with the consequences.

If there is a dispute, about list changing, each player should always have a written list with them, that they can show to the player after the game is over.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk saying all this.
So far I have had no problems with it though.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 16:50
It's a lie intended to frustrate an opponent who deserves to be frustrated. More importantly, if I asked the question "What magic items does that guy have?" I certainly wouldn't expect the response to be truthful.

Sorry, I just can't accept this idea that all lies are equal in heinousness, and that somehow a player is "low" and deserves low sportsman scores for deceiving someone who tried to deceive them. In fact if someone asked that question and it was obvious they weren't being playful, I'd knock THEM a point of sportsmanship.

McMullet
28-08-2009, 17:28
....for a closed list...

And therein lies (aha!) the problem. If it has been explicitly agreed upon that you're playing with a closed list, then sure, the player is violating an agreement you made by asking. If it hasn't been discussed (and you're not playing a tournament), then all you have to do is (politely) set them right.

If closed lists have been agreed upon, then the honest thing to do is to tell them what you think of their behaviour. Remind them you're playing with closed lists (again, they could be unfamiliar with the concept or have simply forgotten). If it's clear they're deliberately trying to catch you out... really, why would you even bother finishing the game? I'd rather head to the pub or play someone else than finish a game with a *****.

The mistake you're making is to universally declare anyone who asks such a question to be doing so, deliberately and consciously, to gain an unfair advantage. Give them the benefit of doubt for crying out loud. I can't help but feel you're a little over keen to seize on what you see as an excuse to gain your own unfair advantage.

gdsora
28-08-2009, 17:41
And therein lies (aha!) the problem. If it has been explicitly agreed upon that you're playing with a closed list, then sure, the player is violating an agreement you made by asking. If it hasn't been discussed (and you're not playing a tournament), then all you have to do is (politely) set them right.

If closed lists have been agreed upon, then the honest thing to do is to tell them what you think of their behaviour. Remind them you're playing with closed lists (again, they could be unfamiliar with the concept or have simply forgotten). If it's clear they're deliberately trying to catch you out... really, why would you even bother finishing the game? I'd rather head to the pub or play someone else than finish a game with a *****.

The mistake you're making is to universally declare anyone who asks such a question to be doing so, deliberately and consciously, to gain an unfair advantage. Give them the benefit of doubt for crying out loud. I can't help but feel you're a little over keen to seize on what you see as an excuse to gain your own unfair advantage.


I am not trying to gain any advantage at all and I don't see it as an excuse. Most of the people I play with know the rules better then me (I often have to ask them for help). I have yet to play someone who knows the rules less then I do. Giving anyone the benefit of the doubt where i play, is being too kind. ( In other wordz i am dah Noob of the group). Sometimes I have to play with people who may not be the best of players, but with limited time to play I don't have much of a choice...

As i said, im not trying to gain any advantage by lying! I play one army Tomb kings and I have a hard enough time with having only a few good magic items trying to keep them secret. Without people trying to Gain information from me.

Drachen_Jager
28-08-2009, 17:43
Why isn't anyone focusing on the opponent? I consider it as bad as lying to ask questions which you have no right to ask in the hopes that your opponent will give something away. Even the response "None of your business" could give away that he does indeed have the laurels if you don't have a good poker face. If it's an agreed 'closed list' game then lying in response to the question is farther from actual cheating than asking the question in the first place.

Classical Mushroom
28-08-2009, 17:46
In a closed list game then i think its very unsporting to lie about something your opponent has asked you. Is it to hard to say "Closed list buddy you gotta get in to a fight with him to get your answer" if someone said something like that i wouldn't find it unsporting just protecting an aspect of the game. If they lied to someones face like that i almost certainly wouldn't bother playing with them.

rtunian
28-08-2009, 17:49
And therein lies (aha!) the problem. If it has been explicitly agreed upon that you're playing with a closed list, then sure, the player is violating an agreement you made by asking. If it hasn't been discussed (and you're not playing a tournament), then all you have to do is (politely) set them right.

sorry mullet, but there is a standard way to play pitched battles, and that standard is with closed lists.

if this was not the standard, why would there be such magic items as reveal enemy hidden characters and magic items? if this was not the standard, why would tournaments follow it? there has not yet been, and i expect there will not be, a satisfactory rebuttal to this.

compare to 40k. in 40k there is an explicit rule that says "you have to disclose everything with your opponent". in wfb, not only is there a distinct absence of any such rule, but there are, like i and many others have said, magic items that reveal secret items and hidden characters. i hate to beat a dead horse, but really... how could you justify this?

if some noob comes in and doesn't know what's what, then that's a different story, a special case, an exception. what we are talking about is not exceptions. what we are talking about is the norm.

"open lists" is a house rule.

Nightsword
28-08-2009, 18:00
Even the response "None of your business" could give away that he does indeed have the laurels if you don't have a good poker face.

You see, I don't think it does. They've already seen the character and suspect what he's carrying. They've already made that judgement before asking you. If you say "i don't have to tell you," you've neither confirmed thier judgement to be right or denied that you opponent's got it wrong. In a different scenario, they ask has you templar grand master got the sword and laurels and you tell them to mind their own business and it transpires that you in fact haven't got those items, you haven't given anything away either or done anything to distort the game. You in fact have kept your integrity. Lying just drops people's opinions of you, I know that from personal experience. Mud sticks.

But for the record, the opponent has no right to ask but that's a matter that's easily solved. You set them straight or come to an arrangement in a friendly way. You're a better person because of it. Asking the initial question is the first wrong, but lying is the second wrong and - in my most humble of opinions - is the worst of the two offences because it can be solved with more tactful responses.

azindal
28-08-2009, 18:02
This seems to have turned into a debate about morals!

It boils down to this for me

Is asking for specific information that would give you a tactical edge in a closed list battle cheating? - No.
Is it unsporting? - Yes

Is lying about said information cheating? - No
Is it unsporting? - Yes

Imho if they are unsporting enough to ask then they deserve to be lied to.

War is all about subterfuge and deciept, concealed blades, assassins, feints ect ect ect
I expect no less in a simulated war game.

McMullet
28-08-2009, 18:21
sorry mullet, but there is a standard way to play pitched battles, and that standard is with closed lists.

if this was not the standard, why would there be such magic items as reveal enemy hidden characters and magic items? if this was not the standard, why would tournaments follow it? there has not yet been, and i expect there will not be, a satisfactory rebuttal to this.

I agree that this is a common convention that is strongly implied by the wording of certain items, rules and spells. However, nowhere, to my knowledge, does it state as much explicitly in the rule book. If it's not in the book, it's not a rule.

Fantasy tournaments I've been to have always been open list. When playing with my friends we have no hard and fast rule, though probably closed lists are normal if we aren't practising for a tournament. Given that all other games I play (40K, Epic and BFG) are generally played open, it would be easy for me to say at the start of a game, "So what items does your Lord have?", forgetting that conventionally, that information is secret. Not maliciously, not seeking an "edge", just carelessly.

If I was playing you, in a store, and you'd never met me before, would you lie, or would you just say, "I prefer to keep that secret if that's OK by you."?

xragg
28-08-2009, 18:34
So do people think its fair that at the begining of my opponents first magic phase, I state:

a unit on my left flank has the hotek ring
my 2 high priced unit on the center+right have MR2
only my unit of cheap spearman have no MR protection

... when actually I dont have the hotek ring and no MR.

My opponent seeing the spearing as the only real option of getting hurt by magic, pours his whole magic phase (and possibly others) into them. At the end of the game, I laugh and tell him how I doobed him. hahaha, so fun.


Imop, if you volunteer information (asked or not), it needs to be truthful. Its not war, its a game of war.

Nightsword
28-08-2009, 18:59
/\ though a different scenario, QFT


Imho if they are unsporting enough to ask then they deserve to be lied to.

No they don't. They have the right to be put back in their place. If they don't like it, don't play them, you'll come out the other side looking like the better person.

Lord Dan
28-08-2009, 19:01
Imop, if you volunteer information (asked or not), it needs to be truthful. Its not war, its a game of war.

I disagree, as I think a response to a question that wasn't warranted is on a very different field than volunteering information with the intent of throwing off your opponent.

If someone asks about a magic item, answering with "yes", "no", or "maybe" shouldn't make any difference as your opponent really shouldn't trust any of those answers.

gdsora
28-08-2009, 19:04
So do people think its fair that at the begining of my opponents first magic phase, I state:

a unit on my left flank has the hotek ring
my 2 high priced unit on the center+right have MR2
only my unit of cheap spearman have no MR protection

... when actually I dont have the hotek ring and no MR.

My opponent seeing the spearing as the only real option of getting hurt by magic, pours his whole magic phase (and possibly others) into them. At the end of the game, I laugh and tell him how I doobed him. hahaha, so fun.


Imop, if you volunteer information (asked or not), it needs to be truthful. Its not war, its a game of war.



But isn't that one of the points of magic items is that there secret? So if the opponent gets *dooped* its part of the game.

EXAMPLE
Tomb Kings
I have a unit of 25 Tomb Guard
It May or May not have the icon of Rakaph.
I could say it doesnt have it! or I could say it does! UNTIL I USE IT, it is *secret*
My opponent may base his game around the fact... that they *MAY* have the banner. He doesn't know and I do not tell him. Its up him to decide.

If you ask me what my lord/hero has equipped, nothing I say has to be true! If i lie, guess what you ASKED something that's SUPPOSED to be secret. IF you plan your game around what i tell you after i ask its no different from asking something you shouldn't have Im sorry! But Don't ask that question!
If that bothers you,or you think I am cheating, check my list, it will show you everything that I have.

rtunian
28-08-2009, 19:13
I agree that this is a common convention that is strongly implied by the wording of certain items, rules and spells. However, nowhere, to my knowledge, does it state as much explicitly in the rule book. If it's not in the book, it's not a rule.

Fantasy tournaments I've been to have always been open list. When playing with my friends we have no hard and fast rule, though probably closed lists are normal if we aren't practising for a tournament. Given that all other games I play (40K, Epic and BFG) are generally played open, it would be easy for me to say at the start of a game, "So what items does your Lord have?", forgetting that conventionally, that information is secret. Not maliciously, not seeking an "edge", just carelessly.

If I was playing you, in a store, and you'd never met me before, would you lie, or would you just say, "I prefer to keep that secret if that's OK by you."?

"what items does your lord have?" is not the same as "does your lord have x combination?". not even close. the way you ask it, even the least discreet person would be able to avoid disclosing any information. the other way, some people would always answer even if they chose not to.

my reaction to our hypothetical encounter (assuming the question as posed by the thread, and not using your non-leading wording) would depend on the environment's custom: is the local public play by open list or closed list? if it was open list, i would just show you my list. if it was closed list, i would say that we play closed lists here, and hope that i didn't answer with my body language.

if you asked me your version of the question, i would again, either just show you my list or i would say something like "imagine a green rambo", and then extoll to you the fun of the closed list playstyle.

i would then be very annoyed if/when you change your list at the last minute to tailor to what information you gleaned or were given. even moreso if it was during play, and you at the last minute stepped out of a trap

Volker the Mad Fiddler
28-08-2009, 19:13
So do people think its fair that at the begining of my opponents first magic phase, I state:

a unit on my left flank has the hotek ring
my 2 high priced unit on the center+right have MR2
only my unit of cheap spearman have no MR protection

... when actually I dont have the hotek ring and no MR.

My opponent seeing the spearing as the only real option of getting hurt by magic, pours his whole magic phase (and possibly others) into them. At the end of the game, I laugh and tell him how I doobed him. hahaha, so fun.


Imop, if you volunteer information (asked or not), it needs to be truthful. Its not war, its a game of war.

In a normal game [closed list] of course this is valid. All the opponent needs to do is cast a single magic missile at the unit to discover the truth- hey, seems a lot like scouting doesn't it. This is no different than saying "don't bother charging my spearmen because they are awesome and never break", but is very different from saying 'my spearmen are unbreakable' the first doesn't violate any of the rules [magic items are supposed to be secret until 'discovered' and so can be lied about; opinions about how your spearmen are too awesome to break are just that, opinions; lying about special rules which are 'public domain' in the game is cheating]. The real question here is why would you expect the evil dark elf general across from you to tell you truth? Or is roleplaying also verboten?


SNIP (this isn't war!!! whoever said that deception is part of war and could therefore be used in a war*game* is an ejit. Shooting you in the face is acceptable in war!) SNIP

As for the idea that I am an idiot because I admit that deceit is a valid strategy in a war game, well please, be serious. As Johan Huizinga theorized playing a game is the same as entering a new reality, the 'magic circle' of the game itself. Since this new reality allows for and encourages deception in certain areas [ex. magic items, placement of assassins] one should expect deception here. The follow-up about shooting someone in the face is part of war has already been addressed. The new reality of the game applies to the rules of the game itself- we roll dice to represent shooting someone in the face- thus, we do not have to shoot them in the face. In similar fashion one does berate or insult their opponent in a non-roleplaying manner [the difference between a Brett general calling an Elf general 'a cowardly knave' before declaring a charge and one person calling another a ***** should be obvious] because the rules of the real world are only suspended within the magic circle for the game itself. Since being insulting is not within the game, real world rules apply, but roleplaying is part of the game and would be acceptable. Otherwise, we are all just a bunch of stuck up children who take our toy soldiers far too seriously.

gdsora
28-08-2009, 19:16
In a normal game [closed list] of course this is valid. All the opponent needs to do is cast a single magic missile at the unit to discover the truth- hey, seems a lot like scouting doesn't it. This is no different than saying "don't bother charging my spearmen because they are awesome and never break", but is very different from saying 'my spearmen are unbreakable' the first doesn't violate any of the rules [magic items are supposed to be secret until 'discovered' and so can be lied about; opinions about how your spearmen are too awesome to break are just that, opinions; lying about special rules which are 'public domain' in the game is cheating]. The real question here is why would you expect the evil dark elf general across from you to tell you truth? Or is roleplaying also verboten?

As for the idea that I am an idiot because I admit that deceit is a valid strategy in a war game, well please, be serious. As Johan Huizinga theorized playing a game is the same as entering a new reality, the 'magic circle' of the game itself. Since this new reality allows for and encourages deception in certain areas [ex. magic items, placement of assassins] one should expect deception here. The follow-up about shooting someone in the face is part of war has already been address. The new reality of the game applies to the rules of the game itself- we roll dice to represent shooting someone in the face- thus, we do not have to shoot them in the face. In similar fashion one does berate or insult their opponent in a non-roleplaying manner [the difference between a Brett general calling an Elf general 'a cowardlt knave' before declaring a charge and one person calling another a ***** should be obvious] because the rules of the real world are only suspended within the magic circle for the game itself. Since being insulting is not within the game, real world rules apply, but roleplaying is part of the game and would be acceptable. Otherwise, we are all just a bunch of stuck up children who take our toy soldiers far too seriously.

You sir! are a genius, i've been trying to find a way to say this, thank you!

dsw1
28-08-2009, 19:25
Greetings.

Now most of this thread was too long and I lacked the patients to sit and read through it all (so please bear with me if I repeat a few things of what someone else has already touched upon).

Now, first let me clarify one or two things I did read, that being the statement that "lying is wrong". Such a statement has no basis within the warhammer world, or ours. What I mean is not the concept of "lying = wrong" more the fact of "Right & wrong" are more subjected to our moral and personal opinions. They are not above us, but our subjects, one man's right is another's wrong (so on and so forth). Nothing is inherently "good" or "bad", "Right" or "wrong", they are just personal beliefs that we try and prescribe on others (prescriptivism).

The above being said, in the case of lying to you opponent about X item being on character Y is violating one of the major rules in warhammer, that being the "spirit of the game". Aforementioned "spirit" varies from club to club mind you, I know most placed I have played at they view it as "cheating" and you would quickly lose friends over this, BUT that does not mean it is inherently bad, some gaming clubs do in fact allow such tactics to be employed as to "enchant their war gaming experience" (I mean lets face it, in war most information you get is a lie when uttered from the enemy).

This all being said, I have to cast my vote towards it is perfectly fine if you want to WAR game.

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 19:29
In Diplomacy, deception is not only permitted but encouraged - guess what happens when a whole series of games are played by the same people against each other, the ones backstabbing the most get ostracised. One reason is because the game makes almost every move critical.

In Warhammer, you enjoy a much greater tolerance when it comes to how a single action can affect the outcome. So in theory, being supplied misinformation that you acted on need not result in losing the game, but it can't help either.

If you really want to bluff your opponent, try to ensure that he knows that's a possibility.

xragg
28-08-2009, 19:30
There is no rule in fantasy stating you have to disclose any gear a model is carrying. So is it ok to model your knights without lances (when they do), and not disclose them until your first round of combat? People keep stating that only magic items are secret, but where in the book does it state that mundane items arent secret? Only rule I can find remotely close is that the majority of the models need to be modeled with similar weapons. It doesnt state that every option taken has to be modeled (armor, shields, missile weapons). Only in 40k.

Lets all model armies with all our toy soldiers wearing closed, thick cloaks so no knows anything until the items themselves are used. They're all modeled the same, tough luck if you cant tell if its spears under their cloaks or great weapons.

If lying is acceptable, where do you draw the line? And how can you justify the line you have drawn?

N810
28-08-2009, 19:39
I Believe...

"If you can't say any thing nice you shouldn't say anything at all"
and
"two wrongs don't make a right"

Yea that ought to cover it. ;)

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 19:42
Most opposing armies have a fairly good idea what the other side is carrying in general. So Heavy cavalry with silvery large toothpicks? Must be lances. A bunch of Dwarves with T shaped tools sneaking up behind us? Must be picks.

kramplarv
28-08-2009, 19:56
As a side note. Playing with closed lists, it is the choice of the player when he reveals what magic items he has. Once you state that the Grand Master has no Laurels of Victory, he has no Laurels of Victory, regardless of what's written on your list; if the opponent can't see the list, he has to go on your word. Saying later on that he does have said item is not lying, it is changing your armylist half way through a game. That IS cheating.



OF COURSENOT!!!! WITH CAPITALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LOT OF !!!!!!!!

What matters is what is said on the list. If it said on the list that have laurels, then i have. Dos not really matter if I say that my grandmaster have 14 dispelscrolls. or anything. What matters is the armylist.

like poker; if someone ask me if I have 3 jacks, I say yes, and then reveal my pair of deuces. I still have the pair of deuces, whatever the answer I gave.

PeG
28-08-2009, 19:58
I would never tell a lye to an opponent but rather say that magical items are secret and it is up to him to find out. To actually try to lye or bluff an opponent by for example setting up three assassins or a unit of miners at the side of the table when I dont have any just doesnt seem like the sportmanship thing to do even if the rules allow it.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
28-08-2009, 19:59
There is no rule in fantasy stating you have to disclose any gear a model is carrying. So is it ok to model your knights without lances (when they do), and not disclose them until your first round of combat? People keep stating that only magic items are secret, but where in the book does it state that mundane items arent secret? Only rule I can find remotely close is that the majority of the models need to be modeled with similar weapons. It doesnt state that every option taken has to be modeled (armor, shields, missile weapons). Only in 40k.

Lets all model armies with all our toy soldiers wearing closed, thick cloaks so no knows anything until the items themselves are used. They're all modeled the same, tough luck if you cant tell if its spears under their cloaks or great weapons.

If lying is acceptable, where do you draw the line? And how can you justify the line you have drawn?

Once again the rules of the game themselves present what is acceptable- WYSIWYG- the majority of a unit must be modeled with the weapon options they have chosen. Convention has made it acceptable to simply tell your opponent that those skinks actually have blowpipes rather than short bows which can then form part of the rules themselves. As the rules clearly indicate that the weapons a unit is armed with is something that should be clearly evident, lying in this case is cheating because it breaks the conventions/rules of the game and therefore of the magic circle.

You draw the line where the game rules have drawn the line- that is the very essence and the point of a game so is its own justification.

McMullet
28-08-2009, 20:20
"what items does your lord have?" is not the same as "does your lord have x combination?". not even close. the way you ask it, even the least discreet person would be able to avoid disclosing any information. the other way, some people would always answer even if they chose not to.

I know what you mean, but that's still assuming the asker of the question knows they're supposed to be playing closed-list. If they know that, even asking the question is violating the spoken agreement they made with the opponent to keep lists secret. They're cheating, and the response to cheating (for me, at least) is some stern words and, in the absence of a swift apology, to end the game there.


my reaction to our hypothetical encounter (assuming the question as posed by the thread, and not using your non-leading wording) would depend on the environment's custom: is the local public play by open list or closed list? if it was open list, i would just show you my list. if it was closed list, i would say that we play closed lists here, and hope that i didn't answer with my body language.

if you asked me your version of the question, i would again, either just show you my list or i would say something like "imagine a green rambo", and then extoll to you the fun of the closed list playstyle.

i would then be very annoyed if/when you change your list at the last minute to tailor to what information you gleaned or were given. even moreso if it was during play, and you at the last minute stepped out of a trap

Heh, green rambo. :p

For the record, I'd consider "reactive" changes to a list much worse than in-game lying. If nothing else, finishing your list well before the game starts is just good manners, since it ensures you don't waste your opponents time and gives you time to check for errors.

Changing a list in-game is definitely cheating.


Greetings.

Now most of this thread was too long and I lacked the patients to sit and read through it all (so please bear with me if I repeat a few things of what someone else has already touched upon).

Now, first let me clarify one or two things I did read, that being the statement that "lying is wrong". Such a statement has no basis within the warhammer world, or ours. What I mean is not the concept of "lying = wrong" more the fact of "Right & wrong" are more subjected to our moral and personal opinions. They are not above us, but our subjects, one man's right is another's wrong (so on and so forth). Nothing is inherently "good" or "bad", "Right" or "wrong", they are just personal beliefs that we try and prescribe on others (prescriptivism).

The above being said, in the case of lying to you opponent about X item being on character Y is violating one of the major rules in warhammer, that being the "spirit of the game". Aforementioned "spirit" varies from club to club mind you, I know most placed I have played at they view it as "cheating" and you would quickly lose friends over this, BUT that does not mean it is inherently bad, some gaming clubs do in fact allow such tactics to be employed as to "enchant their war gaming experience" (I mean lets face it, in war most information you get is a lie when uttered from the enemy).

This all being said, I have to cast my vote towards it is perfectly fine if you want to WAR game.

I think that's all very well said. The part about prescriptivism may be a bit heavy-going for a discussion on Warhammer, but the next paragraph sums up the problem very well.

As Condottiere says, lying and deceit are fine in a game where lying and deceit are expected, such as Diplomacy (and isn't it a laugh when the knife goes in!). However, if one expects honesty, i.e., one does not even consider the possibility that the response to a question (inappropriate or otherwise) may be a lie, it is not so fine. No reason not to include it in Fantasy, but both players have to know. Not because it would be cheating, but because it would mean the two players were playing to different rules.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
28-08-2009, 22:21
SNIP

As Condottiere says, lying and deceit are fine in a game where lying and deceit are expected, such as Diplomacy (and isn't it a laugh when the knife goes in!). However, if one expects honesty, i.e., one does not even consider the possibility that the response to a question (inappropriate or otherwise) may be a lie, it is not so fine. No reason not to include it in Fantasy, but both players have to know. Not because it would be cheating, but because it would mean the two players were playing to different rules.

This is certainly true and easy to agree to. My question, and this is honestly asked, why would one expect honesty in a competitive game about things that are designed to be secret within that game? Obviously for learning games and such but otherwise, why?

jaxom
28-08-2009, 22:52
This is certainly true and easy to agree to. My question, and this is honestly asked, why would one expect honesty in a competitive game about things that are designed to be secret within that game? Obviously for learning games and such but otherwise, why?

QFT

I tried before to make the distinction between someone who didn't understand that he was asking something not allowed in a closed list game and someone intentionally engaging an opponent to try and gain an advantage... Between those somewhere is a friendly match between familiar opponents. These are what drive me to avoid the black and white answer....

McMullet
28-08-2009, 23:04
This is certainly true and easy to agree to. My question, and this is honestly asked, why would one expect honesty in a competitive game about things that are designed to be secret within that game? Obviously for learning games and such but otherwise, why?
It is rather reminiscent of the scene in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where the philosophers are arguing with Deep Thought, and one demands "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

However, it's not a question of "why?", but of "whether or not". I would expect honesty. The justification is irrelevant. Call me a fool if you like, but my reaction is going to be the same when your deceit is exposed: I expected honesty and was disappointed. If you play someone who expects you to be honest and you aren't, there will be friction.

As dsw1 pointed out, it's a subjective matter. We play the game differently, neither way is right or wrong, but you can't cloud the issue by asking for an explanation. The fact is, it's what some people expect, regardless of the reason.

Deglosh
28-08-2009, 23:10
M8 that is just totally crap from youre side. If you say he doesnt have it, he doesnt, end of story. you cant lie about stuff like that. He should be able to see youre armylist before the game anyways.

More than that, that aint a good way to make friends. This game is a game for fun m8, why are you playing?

xragg
28-08-2009, 23:50
Once again the rules of the game themselves present what is acceptable- WYSIWYG- the majority of a unit must be modeled with the weapon options they have chosen.

It doesnt say that. It only says the majority of the models have to be modeled with the same weapon. WYSIWYG is not in the BRB. No where in the BRB does it state I must disclose what weapons my unit has, just like magic items. It is just tradition that people do. Like I said, you could easily have every model in your armor completely cloaked with a hand weapon, even though some units have great weapons, others have handguns, etc; and be completely within the rules to do so.

If people feel its ok to lie about magic items because the BRB doesnt state you have to disclose magic item, then why doesnt the same logic apply to mundane weapons which the BRB also doesnt state anywhere you have to disclose?

So basically, how do you draw the line at magic items as being ok to blatantly lie about, but not mundane items?


...and people really need to stop comparing warhammer to poker, diplomacy, and other games like illuminati. The rules of poker, diplomacy, and illuminati promote bluffing and lieing as a strategy. No where in the BRB does it suggest one should lie as a strategy. I have no problem with someone trying to throw someone off track, but blatant lying about what gear your models have is cheating.

I am getting really tired of all these arguments lately that "just because the BRB doesnt says I cant, then I can" attitude.

CaptainAwesome
28-08-2009, 23:53
Lying is wrong, and the fact that we're even having this ridiculous argument just shows what a sorry state we're all in.

Thats a pretty ridiculous statment I personally would go with a no comment however... Lying isn't nessacery a bad thing I do it all the time for instance. ''Are you organising a suprise party for me"? No "Do you have any spare change?" No etc etc. Lying isn't bad initself its just got loads of bad press. The gun is'nt evil its the man who pulls the trigger etc etc.

As already pointed out unless the player was new why was he even asking? If he was genuenly unaware then it is of course unfortunate that he was mislead as these sorts of things will turn away new gamers and give the rest of us a bad name. I wasn't there however but the items were asked for by name which implys he knew what he was doing.

Regards.

tarrasque
28-08-2009, 23:58
what i always like to do if they ask me a q like do you have this trick up your sleef is the following:
i could have and if i did you better not do this but on the other hand...
if you do this and i dont have it you put me in a bad position.

most players will go crazy. and it is always fun to see someone make the disision to to do it and i dont have the item.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-08-2009, 00:03
It doesnt say that. It only says the majority of the models have to be modeled with the same weapon. WYSIWYG is not in the BRB. No where in the BRB does it state I must disclose what weapons my unit has, just like magic items. It is just tradition that people do. Like I said, you could easily have every model in your armor completely cloaked with a hand weapon, even though some units have great weapons, others have handguns, etc; and be completely within the rules to do so.

If people feel its ok to lie about magic items because the BRB doesnt state you have to disclose magic item, then why doesnt the same logic apply to mundane weapons which the BRB also doesnt state anywhere you have to disclose?

So basically, how do you draw the line at magic items as being ok to blatantly lie about, but not mundane items?


Except that the rules do explicitly state WYSISWYG- BRB pg. 54- "It is acceptable for a minority of models to be armed differently ... but the whole unit still counts as being armed as the majority. Where the models are varied in this way it is important that the overall appearance of the unit is not misleading."

So, the rules are quite clear that mundane weapons options have to not be misleading. Hence, lying about them would be cheating.

xragg
29-08-2009, 00:09
You're reading more into that then there is. It only states my models are to be armed similarly. All models have hand weapons and can be modeled with just them and no other distinct characteristics (hence I stated cloaked). That paragraph comes no where close to stating all options must be represented. Again, only that the unit must be armed with the same weapons. Look at the 40k book if you want to see the WYSIWYG rule. I am not promoting this type of play. Just trying to show how childish people are if they feel they must lie about their army. Tarrasque's response is a much more acceptable way to answer someone that is asking a question you feel he isnt allowed to ask and much more effective.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-08-2009, 00:17
It is rather reminiscent of the scene in The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where the philosophers are arguing with Deep Thought, and one demands "rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

However, it's not a question of "why?", but of "whether or not". I would expect honesty. The justification is irrelevant. Call me a fool if you like, but my reaction is going to be the same when your deceit is exposed: I expected honesty and was disappointed. If you play someone who expects you to be honest and you aren't, there will be friction.

As dsw1 pointed out, it's a subjective matter. We play the game differently, neither way is right or wrong, but you can't cloud the issue by asking for an explanation. The fact is, it's what some people expect, regardless of the reason.

Of course I can ask for an explanation- that's the whole point having a discussion or a debate in the first place. I am not looking to argue about reasons, but am interested in what they are.

Here is mine- I would not expect honesty, because no honesty is required in the rules and people play to win [otherwise there is no competition and one might as well randomly deploy and move units without regard to rules anyway]. Thus, where honesty is not required and dishonesty would provide an advantage I would always assume the possibility of dishonesty [which is very different from cheating or poor sportsmanship].

What is your reasoning for expecting honesty?

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-08-2009, 00:18
You're reading more into that then there is. It only states my models are to be armed similarly. All models have hand weapons and can be modeled with just them and no other distinct characteristics (hence I stated cloaked). That paragraph comes no where close to stating all options must be represented. Again, only that the unit must be armed with the same weapons. Look at the 40k book if you want to see the WYSIWYG rule. I am not promoting this type of play. Just trying to show how childish people are if they feel they must lie about their army. Tarrasque's response is a much more acceptable way to answer someone that is asking a question you feel he isnt allowed to ask and much more effective.

It does if you want to use any of those options. Otherwise all you have is the hand weapons since that is way the majority are armed. how else can you read "counts as being armed as the majority." Especially with the "it is important that the overall appearance of the unit is not misleading."

xragg
29-08-2009, 00:33
What is your reasoning for expecting honesty?

Well, when asked what a model has, you have basically 4 options to respond.

1. Refuse to answer.
2. Tell the complete truth. Yes he has it or no he doesnt.
3. Raise suspicion or doubt, through an odd answer, what could be true, etc. Basically half truths that dont really answer the question either way.
4. Blatantly lie. Tell them he has it when he doesnt or vica versa.

If you really feel #4 is the best option for a warhammer game, I am glad I dont play in your gaming circle. It has no morales and really has no low point for how far a person will go to win a game. What rule wont the person manipulate or abuse just to get an edge? I would like to think most people would prefer to play in an environment where most people chose option 1-3. It only takes 1 time to tell a person they cant be asking what magic items you have if it bothers you that much.

Nightsword
29-08-2009, 00:49
As for the idea that I am an idiot because I admit that deceit is a valid strategy in a war game, well please, be serious. As Johan Huizinga theorized playing a game is the same as entering a new reality, the 'magic circle' of the game itself. Since this new reality allows for and encourages deception in certain areas [ex. magic items, placement of assassins] one should expect deception here. The follow-up about shooting someone in the face is part of war has already been addressed. The new reality of the game applies to the rules of the game itself- we roll dice to represent shooting someone in the face- thus, we do not have to shoot them in the face. In similar fashion one does berate or insult their opponent in a non-roleplaying manner [the difference between a Brett general calling an Elf general 'a cowardly knave' before declaring a charge and one person calling another a ***** should be obvious] because the rules of the real world are only suspended within the magic circle for the game itself. Since being insulting is not within the game, real world rules apply, but roleplaying is part of the game and would be acceptable. Otherwise, we are all just a bunch of stuck up children who take our toy soldiers far too seriously.

I think this shows that we have different opinions on the OPs situation. I've taken from what you've written that you believe asking the OP whether he had the laurels and sword or not as part of the game. I don't. I view it as before and outside the actual game, and it in fact occured as part of the deployment. They're not playing as this point in time and I view the lying as having happened in the real world, not this new reality of combat, magic, dragons, wizards and deception. Everything I've posted on this matter had said the same thing; that the opponent had no right to ask what items the OP had, they are a secret, they are a variable outside of your control that is designed to make the game more interesting, multidimensional even. Like fanatics, like assassins. However, the question was asked and should have been rebuked with a clarification of how things were going to be played or the rules. "I don't have to tell you" would have sufficed, or "items are revealed when we get into combat/i choose to reveal them." not blatant lying.

I shouldn't have to expect deception anywhere in the game. Not knowing where fanatics, assassins, and weapon teams are, or what items your characters has, is part of the game, a mechanic built into it. It is the way they are ment to be played; it's neither cheating nor lying. The rest of the game is made with honesty and the spirit of sportsmanship in mind. I trust you to move correctly, to take the turn sequence correctly, to shoot correctly and to use and play with what's on your list correctly. I don't expect you to lie. Now I know that the lie arose from a situation that shouldn't have occured but lying your way around it isn't the answer, I don't care what Huizinga theorised about game realities or whatever; lying, like insulting your opponent, isn't part of a game, it's a real life situation. I wouldn't expect being lied to as much as I wouldn't expect my opponent to insult me.

On a sidenote, I should have said the premise was idiotic, not you, but that's simply because I don't agree or understand how it can be agreed with. I should have been more eloquent. Apologese.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-08-2009, 00:57
Well, when asked what a model has, you have basically 4 options to respond.

1. Refuse to answer.
2. Tell the complete truth. Yes he has it or no he doesnt.
3. Raise suspicion or doubt, through an odd answer, what could be true, etc. Basically half truths that dont really answer the question either way.
4. Blatantly lie. Tell them he has it when he doesnt or vica versa.

If you really feel #4 is the best option for a warhammer game, I am glad I dont play in your gaming circle. It has no morales and really has no low point for how far a person will go to win a game. What rule wont the person manipulate or abuse just to get an edge? I would like to think most people would prefer to play in an environment where most people chose option 1-3. It only takes 1 time to tell a person they cant be asking what magic items you have if it bothers you that much.

First off, I am insulted by your suspicion :), especially because there is no manipulation or abuse of the rules in lying about magic items- in fact expecting the person to honestly tell you something the rules define as secret [by the very existence of items which reveal those secrets] is a far bigger abuse of the rules. Do you expect the opponent to tell you where all his assassins and fanatics are as well? Why not make him tell you where he plans to deploy all his units before the game begins? Really, people, the point of the a game is to separate from real life [in fact, the very definition of a game demands it] so get off your high horse (see I can be insulting too), laugh, lie, taunt and then have a drink together and actually enjoy yourselves.

Now, when a thread leads me to be insulting (even in a jovial way) it has obviously run its course. I wish you all luck and hope if we ever meet you will be more into the spirit of game than many of the posts here would indicate. An honest Dark elf or daemon, seriously?

Condottiere
29-08-2009, 01:02
As an aside, if you proxy any of your troops, complete honesty has to be considered in response to any question; this is to avoid any confusion or possibility of being accused of cheating.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
29-08-2009, 01:07
I think this shows that we have different opinions on the OPs situation. I've taken from what you've written that you believe asking the OP whether he had the laurels and sword or not as part of the game. I don't. I view it as before and outside the actual game, and it in fact occured as part of the deployment. They're not playing as this point in time and I view the lying as having happened in the real world, not this new reality of combat, magic, dragons, wizards and deception. Everything I've posted on this matter had said the same thing; that the opponent had no right to ask what items the OP had, they are a secret, they are a variable outside of your control that is designed to make the game more interesting, multidimensional even. Like fanatics, like assassins. However, the question was asked and should have been rebuked with a clarification of how things were going to be played or the rules. "I don't have to tell you" would have sufficed, or "items are revealed when we get into combat/i choose to reveal them." not blatant lying.

I shouldn't have to expect deception anywhere in the game. Not knowing where fanatics, assassins, and weapon teams are, or what items your characters has, is part of the game, a mechanic built into it. It is the way they are ment to be played; it's neither cheating nor lying. The rest of the game is made with honesty and the spirit of sportsmanship in mind. I trust you to move correctly, to take the turn sequence correctly, to shoot correctly and to use and play with what's on your list correctly. I don't expect you to lie. Now I know that the lie arose from a situation that shouldn't have occured but lying your way around it isn't the answer, I don't care what Huizinga theorised about game realities or whatever; lying, like insulting your opponent, isn't part of a game, it's a real life situation. I wouldn't expect being lied to as much as I wouldn't expect my opponent to insult me.

On a sidenote, I should have said the premise was idiotic, not you, but that's simply because I don't agree or understand how it can be agreed with. I should have been more eloquent. Apologese.

This I can respect, but have to disagree. Lying, bluffing, etc. are part of the game, just are fleeing charges and rolling dice because they are a legitimate way of protecting secrets. I think it is just as legitimate to start picking up my fanatics as an opponent begins to move towards my night goblins whether there are any fanatics in the unit or not [telling him to stop 8" from the NGs when there are no fanatics would be cheating obviously]. Maybe I am just odd in enjoy the mind games and find that the biggest laughs for weeks and months afterward tend to result from them [and of course the crazy dice rolls], but say that one is cheating when they have broken no rules is? Well....

Now, note that everything I have written is of course based on assumptions- closed list, already some degree of trust between competitors, etc.- that may be invalid.

Sorry, but I read the post I was replying to after I typed my exit post. I am now actually gone, but if anyone wants to continue the discussion privately- volkerthemadfiddler@hotmail.com

General Squeek Squeek
29-08-2009, 07:44
When it comes right down to it I think the OP was pretty unsportsmanlike. You are not required at all to give away your magic item details, but blatantly lying was not needed. As many others have said you could have easily just said "I dont need to tell" or even answered "maybe". By doing this you have ensured that he doesn't know which items you have.

The only reason that you seem to have wanted to lie is to turn the table and gain your own advantage. This in itself suggests that you were doing this this to get even with him asking the question in the first place. The fact is there is no way of knowing whether or not his intentions were innocent or insidious when he asked what your guy had.

Without him personally posting we can't know if it was an honest mistake (always plays open lists, ect.) or if he was trying to dupe the OP (getting unfair info, ect.). With that said he may or may not have been in the wrong for asking the question.

But what you did was a bit different. By lying about your equipment you gave him false info on your army thereby possibly changing his tactics and strategy. Without any warning that it could be false. It is not technically wrong, but it does make you kinda a jerk.

azindal
29-08-2009, 07:53
I think its absurd that in a "closed list" game that most people believe you have to tell the truth when asked about something your opponent should'nt know about.

I am an honest person by all respects, and I ofcourse would not lie like most of the outrageous examples given.
But i would mislead them, thats a part of the game! Bait and flee, missdirect, assassins, fanatics ect.

I have played an O&G player in a closed list local tournament and he had some fanatics lined up next to the table edge.
After tip toeing round his NG units for a turn or two i soon realise that he has no fanatics in his list at all!
Ofc i was decieved and misslead, however instead of crying about it i respected the cunning of the player and his tactics!
Now.. if he had tried to use them that would be cheating but thats not what were talking about here.

Giving your opponent missleading information when s/he is entitled to none [closed list] is not cheating in any respect of the rules. Some players wont like it, some [like myself] feel its just another tactic in a tactical wargame.

Draconian77
29-08-2009, 10:09
I think its absurd that in a "closed list" game that most people believe you have to tell the truth when asked about something your opponent should'nt know about.



I think you are misunderstanding a vital point here;

No one is asking you to tell the truth.
Just don't lie.
:D

azindal
29-08-2009, 10:27
I think you are misunderstanding a vital point here;

No one is asking you to tell the truth.
Just don't lie.
:D


I understand the point :)

But i have seen several times here posters claiming that any info given needs to be the truth, Which evidently i disagree with.

Isabel
29-08-2009, 12:02
Lots of self righteous people here... I wonder how often these people lie themselves.

rtunian
29-08-2009, 12:42
all of them.
and they lie to themselves as well.

xragg
29-08-2009, 13:40
I understand the point :)

But i have seen several times here posters claiming that any info given needs to be the truth, Which evidently i disagree with.

No, I still think your missing the point. I think most people dont have a problem with deception, such as setting up fanatics/assassins along the board edge. Other tactics like putting extra units or a dragon you dont have on your set up board, but never actually deploying them are typically fine. These behaviors are set up using halve truths, white lies, or very carefully worded statements . All of which is techniqually lying, but not necessarily malicious in nature. What most people have a problem with is the blatant, unnessecary lies, like the example the OP gave.

And to volker, I didnt mean to insult you. It was never my intention. My problem is with certain behaviors, not anyone in particular. I dont know you any better then anyone block of text here, and would never judge with out actually getting to know someone first. If you still happen to read this thread, then I apologize.

seraphius
29-08-2009, 13:45
Imo as a tourney player, IF you are playing with open lists or comp that says you have to tell what magic/special items are on your char then that is cheating.. if it is a closed list or comp does not say you have to tell it is not cheating.

azindal
29-08-2009, 14:15
No, I still think your missing the point. I think most people dont have a problem with deception, such as setting up fanatics/assassins along the board edge. Other tactics like putting extra units or a dragon you dont have on your set up board, but never actually deploying them are typically fine. These behaviors are set up using halve truths, white lies, or very carefully worded statements . All of which is techniqually lying, but not necessarily malicious in nature. What most people have a problem with is the blatant, unnessecary lies, like the example the OP gave.


Not sure what point im ment to be missing :confused: but even in the case of the Op's example. I feel that in a closed list game and ONLY in a closed list game that there is nothing wrong with deliberatly missleading your opponent like that.

Its only the same as telling your opponent about fake tactics ect, for me and my group its a staple part of the game.
Its just jovial banter between gamers, If the player is gullerbul enough to believe his opponent is going to give him a tactical advantage by unnecessarily revealing items/gear in a competative game then more fool that player.

I apprieciate some players dont agree with this and to be honest i cant see why, but im guessing that is because my whole gaming group shares the same view as myself, so its just another tactic to us :rolleyes:

Condottiere
29-08-2009, 14:29
On the whole, there is no clear answer that will cover all situations, but to be on the safe side, just smile knowingly.

Ganymede
29-08-2009, 14:59
If this was at an open-list tournament, you would probably be removed from the event or at the least suffer a substantial penalty. If this was at a closed-list tournament, you would have just squandered your chances at winning anything substantial with that goose egg in sportsmanship points.

Skyth
29-08-2009, 15:39
First off, lots of people (Like me) perfer to play in an open-list environment so asking was not any attempt to decieve.

Second off, it WAS cheating. There is no rule in the books that allows you to lie about what your model has.

Third, it is increadibly bad sportsmanship to lie about what your model has.

therat
29-08-2009, 15:44
I'm throwing in with the "its not cheating, but it's definitely not sporting" lot. Anyone who says lying is "part of the game" is not someone I'd want to play. Lying should not occur at a warhammer table. As an excellent example of how much lying is not considered "part of the game" I'll use T10's opener. After revealing that the character actually had what he said he did not, the opponent appears to have acted in surprise. I must say it is no surprise to me that he was surprised he had been lied to.

Before anyone starts renewing old arguments...

I agree the player should not have inquired in the first place, but the only sporting answer if you do not wish to reveal is to reveal nothing. To those of you who feel you are revealing by not revealing: it is all in your head. You mean to tell me that if said character did not have the item asked about you would tell the truth? That's the only way that argument works and the only way your opponent would know is if he also knows you tell the truth when the character doesn't have it, but you make it blurry when he does.

Isabel
29-08-2009, 15:51
I never knew so many women played warhammer.

Tokamak
29-08-2009, 16:25
It would most certainly be the last time I played against you, just you that you're not revealing magic items.

gdsora
29-08-2009, 16:42
As already said, people play this Game differently.
The Group and area i play in, we consider it part of the game, and sporting. That is what we consider magic items to be for.

Also, Almost none of us ever play open list, ever. I never even heard of it before i started lurking on Warseer/Librarium.

We just play differently i guess.

And if your going to call me a cheater, for breaking none of the rules
or of having unsportsmen like conduct. (for what playing the game? I could say my unit of Tomb Gaurd have the Icon of Rakaph all i want, does not mean they have until i actually use it)

I would feel no need to play with you again

Skyth
29-08-2009, 17:27
This is akin to when someone asks how far your Ogres can charge telling them 8" and then when they move thier unit 9" away, charging them next turn with your 12" charge.

MrDwhitey
29-08-2009, 17:29
As already said, people play this Game differently.
And if your going to call me a cheater, for breaking none of the rules
or of having unsportsmen like conduct. (for what playing the game? I could say my unit of Tomb Gaurd have the Icon of Rakaph all i want, does not mean they have until i actually use it)

I would feel no need to play with you again

Amusingly this seems to suit both sides just fine. So both sides never play each other again! Hip hip hooray!

gdsora
29-08-2009, 17:44
This is akin to when someone asks how far your Ogres can charge telling them 8" and then when they move thier unit 9" away, charging them next turn with your 12" charge.

There is a difference between stats which being the rulebook are as The Mad Fiddler stated 'public domain'.They are visible in the rulebook for anyone to see, and should never be falsified
and magic items, which are supposed to be secret.

static grass
29-08-2009, 18:29
Not really all that much of a rules question, but a question of morality and convention. Is it ok to blatantly lie to your opponent about your "army secrets"?



I approve of this behaviour. These secrets are secret for a reason. If your opponent wants you to cough up the hidden bonuses your army has then you should oblige the man with a heap of dung.

and people complain about the lack of realism.

Its not sporting to ask for secrets when you know that they are secret so they can hardly complain when they are lead up the garden path.

Skyth
29-08-2009, 19:45
Its not sporting to ask for secrets when you know that they are secret .


And it is not always known to be secret. Plus, even if it is 'wrong' to ask, two wrongs do not make a right. The only 'correct' response is that you perfer to play with closed lists.

Master Jeridian
29-08-2009, 19:51
Wow, some strongly diverging opinions, and I have to fall strongly on one side.

A number of philosophies that make me a bit nauseas and ensure I wouldn't play them again.

"If someone is acting an arsehat (by for example asking for info on an army list they shouldn't have access too), I must immediately act like a bigger arsehat- to 'show them' (by blatantly lying)"

I've seen this ridiculous tautology used in various wargaming scenarios- most commonly it's used by a player as an excuse to cheat or use a 'filthy' or cheesy army list, because another arsehat burnt them with it.

Being the bigger arsehat doesn't prove anything, and certainly doesn't show the original arsehat the error of his ways (if anything it encourages him to be an even bigger arsehat to outdo you).

I don't want to participate in a wargaming circle of ever growing arsehats.

"Warhammer is Poker"

No, no it's not. Admittedly Warhammer does have some secrets (i.e. Magic Items), most wargames don't. Most wargames give your opponent full, free access to your army list and rules and then you must win based on your skill at using them...rather than by a 'i know something u don't know, hur hur'.
How does that work if you play the same people a lot, and they prefer to play the same lists?

I'd rather win a game because I outplayed my opponent, not because I pulled 'secret win trick B' on them for a one-off surprise.

"Warhammer is War"

This one is often applied to wargames. Usually as a last defence by WAAC'ers to justify being arsehats in a board game with toy soldiers.
No, it isn't war, not even close. War isn't fun. War isn't to pass a few hours with friends and beer. War doesn't intend for both sides to have an enjoyable game and go home.

Is lying cheating? Probably not. Would I ever play you? Probably not.

Angelust
29-08-2009, 20:04
And it is not always known to be secret. Plus, even if it is 'wrong' to ask, two wrongs do not make a right. The only 'correct' response is that you perfer to play with closed lists.

QFT. Most of the people I play with usually have a less competitive, open environment for gaming. Some of them come right off and when they describe the units they're deploying, they come right out and say that their Lord is an unkillable Pendant Lord w/ regen, etc etc. When they don't we just accept that we'll both keep it secret until they get into combat.

However, blatantly lying to me with a straight face about what some character is carrying betrays a trust that is commonly accepted amongst many gamers (this thread can at least prove that). Most gamers simply do not view outright deception as a tactical facet of this game, and if it is considered a valid strategy, at the least both players should be fully aware of this before the game begins.


To analogize WHFB with Poker is incoherent for many reasons. The rules of poker are simple and well known to all parties. It's a game of wagering, and deception and statistics are part of the fundamental core mechanic of the game. Even then, many casinos and tournaments will sometimes employ rules where you're not allowed to reveal to the table what your hand is, and actually saying "I have Ace King Suited" is not technically allowed and can incur penalties or a "talking to" by the floor manager.

WHFB, on the other hand, is a game of strategy (except with DoC and VC, hehe :-) ), and surprise, gambit, baiting, and other forms of tactical deception are generally understood to be fair and permissible. However, blatant lying without a commonly agreed stance on the validity of lying as part of the fundamental game mechanic is unsportsmanlike to say the least, and will likely lose you opponents to play in the future. Maybe that's for the better, since your understanding of the game is predominantly different in method and purpose.

Whenever a new(ish) player asks me what my Lord has, how many scrolls I have left, how many bound items I have, etc, I usually inform him on what my army book is capable of allowing, and then that I'm not supposed to reveal what I'm actually carrying. If it's a very friendly game, I usually infer the obvious.

"My two level one, unmarked wizards may be carrying a rune sword and axe of khorne, or they MAY be carrying some scrolls. Hmm..."

Typically Noobs need all the help they can get to make it an interesting game for the both of you, and veterans can pretty much already guess what you're carrying. That doesn't stop me from taking an assassin or bloodskull pendant once in a while...

gdsora
29-08-2009, 20:09
Wow, some strongly diverging opinions, and I have to fall strongly on one side.

A number of philosophies that make me a bit nauseas and ensure I wouldn't play them again.

"If someone is acting an arsehat (by for example asking for info on an army list they shouldn't have access too), I must immediately act like a bigger arsehat- to 'show them' (by blatantly lying)"

I've seen this ridiculous tautology used in various wargaming scenarios- most commonly it's used by a player as an excuse to cheat or use a 'filthy' or cheesy army list, because another arsehat burnt them with it.

Being the bigger arsehat doesn't prove anything, and certainly doesn't show the original arsehat the error of his ways (if anything it encourages him to be an even bigger arsehat to outdo you).

I don't want to participate in a wargaming circle of ever growing arsehats.

"Warhammer is Poker"

No, no it's not. Admittedly Warhammer does have some secrets (i.e. Magic Items), most wargames don't. Most wargames give your opponent full, free access to your army list and rules and then you must win based on your skill at using them...rather than by a 'i know something u don't know, hur hur'.
How does that work if you play the same people a lot, and they prefer to play the same lists?

I'd rather win a game because I outplayed my opponent, not because I pulled 'secret win trick B' on them for a one-off surprise.

"Warhammer is War"

This one is often applied to wargames. Usually as a last defence by WAAC'ers to justify being arsehats in a board game with toy soldiers.
No, it isn't war, not even close. War isn't fun. War isn't to pass a few hours with friends and beer. War doesn't intend for both sides to have an enjoyable game and go home.

Is lying cheating? Probably not. Would I ever play you? Probably not.



Getting Awfully tired of this

OKAY!

where i play, what we are doing we don't consider being an *arsehat* The GW, and other locations I play, we do all the time, and none of us ever have any problems with it at all.

How does it work? Me/others learn and remember what the other players commonly do. Eventually they/me wise up and try a different kind of list for a while, or do something unexpected.We all lie/decive/have fun
I thought his assassin was in a different unit,
Oh shoot! I he tricked me, dang. OH WELL! that was awesome. Ack! I didn't think that wizard had VHS.

And the thing is

We have fun

We all do

every once and a while there is a problem, but doesn't that occur with any game?

I am done with this topic... I still don't see why people have such a hard time realizing other players/groups/clubs may play the game different from what you do. Some of feel WAR is like poker! Others Feel like Warhammer is War

Does that make us bad?
If we are all enjoying it?

Dexter099
29-08-2009, 20:47
I'm with Ultimate Life Form.

Yes, it's true that the guy was somewhat stupid to believe that you were gonna tell him the truth, but that doesn't make it any more legitimate for you to do that. Plus, you're just not supposed to tell him that, you should just tell him that it's a secret.

Master Jeridian
30-08-2009, 00:22
gdsora: More power to ya bud. Different people like different things.
I perhaps was a bit strong with 'arsehat' but I have strong opinions.

The environment you describe is exactly what I would avoid- one were the players are trying to 'one-up' each other in duplicity, deception and manipulation.

I don't consider blatant lying to my opponent to be part of the wargaming experience, I'll avoid playing those that do. Not because I'm morally superior or because I never lie (neither is true), but because I want to win and lose through the players ability to move his pieces around the table with more intelligence and planning, not because he made stuff up or hid 'secret death win spell B'.

In a thread discussing whether lying is a valid Warhammer tactic, I'm adding my opinion on the side of No. I'm glad to see a fair few people agree with me.
If your getting tired of people disagreeing with you that's too bad, they're entitled to their opinions- and a lot of people don't seem to like outright lying to claw an in-game advantage where toy soldiers are involved.

Nightsword
30-08-2009, 01:58
I never knew so many women played warhammer.

I know, I can't believe it myself!

As we all know, real men don't need to lie; deceit is a female trait.

Milgram
30-08-2009, 06:33
As we all know, real men don't need to lie; deceit is a female trait.

they said the same things about the jews. and the french. and the saracens. and the hmong. and the americans. doesn't make it true.

I don't think such things have a place here.

real men don't need to lie, they do it anyways.

Raka
30-08-2009, 06:49
Everyone who is like Lying is Wrong! << disagree.

I think its all good of you. If you had something else secret, like a bunch of tokens on the map and one of them is secretly marked where your reserves will enter play from an underground tunnel... and he says "oh is this your secret reserve tunnel exit" and you say "yeah" and he clusters his army around it AND YOU SHELL THE HELL OUT OF HIM WITH BASILISKS BECAUSE LOL YOU WERENT SERIOUSLY GOING TO LET HIM KNOW.

Bawwww thats not fair? Propaganda and misinformation! His own fault. Entirely. It is not your place to tell him your secret tactical information. It's not a mistake he'll make twice. And you arent even messing with him, its self inflicted.

Nightsword
30-08-2009, 10:27
they said the same things about the jews. and the french. and the saracens. and the hmong. and the americans. doesn't make it true.

I don't think such things have a place here.

When you see the context I was writing it in, it was written wholly in jest. Since when did being honest, or better yet, playing in the spirit of sportsmanship and the game i.e. saying "i don't have to tell you" rather than "blatantly lying," make you a woman?

Yes, you go ahead and manipulate in the game in an unfair way, we cower before your masculinity! Unconstructive answer to an unconstructive statement.

Milgram
30-08-2009, 10:50
Unconstructive answer to an unconstructive statement.

yeah, we are two unconstructive people, aren't we? next time you are 'joking' around, best put a smiley for the context.

and again you attack the masculinity of other people as if the whole thing has to do anything with some strange machismo.

blurred
30-08-2009, 19:40
I'm not really sure what to think about lying in gaming environment. IMO it is definitely a much more complicated matter than some posters believe. On the other hand, lying is generally wrong and should not be approved. However, WHFB is also a game of bluffing and psychology.

For example, I talk a lot during games. I boast with the firepower of my Empire force, although it really isn't what my army is best at. I tell my opponents to keep their cavalry away from my night gobs and their fanatics, but usually I have just one fanatic in each unit if even that. Recently I played against my friend and mumbled "that unit of phoenix guard is ruining my flank attack" or something like that. I was lying: the said unit was right were it was suppose to be for my battleplan to work. Is it morally wrong to lie like this? I don't think so. It's psychology and part of the game.

If someone asks about the magical gear of my characters, I won't lie. I just deny them the information. However, I wouldn't stop playing someone just because they lied. In many cases I've asked questions like "how many assassins do you have?". Not because I expected the opponent to tell the truth but to see what his/her reaction was.

All in all, I think a certain amount of underhanded tactics and lying is nothing to scorn at in gaming. Victory tastes all the more sweeter when you see through your opponent's ruse and use it to your advantage. :)

Nightsword
30-08-2009, 22:59
yeah, we are two unconstructive people, aren't we? next time you are 'joking' around, best put a smiley for the context.

and again you attack the masculinity of other people as if the whole thing has to do anything with some strange machismo.

Sigh...

For the record, yours wasn't the unconstructive statement. The "i didn't realise so many women played warhammer" statement, that I *quoted* from Isabel, was ;)

But yeah we both are unconstructive people now, and no actually, I didn't attack the masculinity of other people. The point was made in Isabel's post that those people willing to be honest are women. It's written as to be insulting.

"Since when did being honest, or better yet, playing in the spirit of sportsmanship and the game i.e. saying "i don't have to tell you" rather than "blatantly lying," make you a woman?" This first half is written in seriousness. I couldn't believe that someone would just come straight out and make a statement that being honest made them a woman. I don't know about where you're from but here if a man is being called a "woman," it's ment to be derogatory (even if there just having laugh. Me and my mates call each other all sorts of names), like being called a "pansy." It was them that was attacking the masculinity so I made the initial response in jest and turned it back on them.

The second part of my statement, "Yes, you go ahead and manipulate the game in an unfair way, we cower before your masculinity!" is mocking, is sarcastic, and wholly directed at them. It's like a "woo, you're hard aren't ya?!" It's not actually a serious statement.

Do I need to explain further or do you understand now? :)

larabic
31-08-2009, 05:30
When someone asks what magic items or vows/etc he has just respond:

Classified

CthulhuDalek
31-08-2009, 06:04
Didn't finish reading the thread, but I figure my post will add anyway!

I'd say *lying* is cheating.

Trying to gain a tactical advantage(the goal of the game is to use tactics, and therefore take tactical advantages) over your enemy through cunning, or trying to get them to give away information is simply part of the game. "Why's that goblin unit getting so close to my lines... the rest of his army's over there... fanatic???" When in reality your fanatic is elsewhere, or you don't even have one.

You are allowed, and most likely encouraged to confuse your opponents into making tactical errors -- but not by lying to them. "Does X hero have Y equipment?"..."Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't"(someone used that example above, and I wanted to reiterate it here).

If they want to ask you questions and you aren't willing to give away that this character has an item... "Well...someone on the board has item Y, that's for sure!"

So many semi-deceptive and yet, not lying, options which can be given with a smirk...

"You realize I don't have to tell you about any of my character's equipment.."

Lying and misdirection are *similar* but are not the same.

Milgram
31-08-2009, 09:17
So many semi-deceptive and yet, not lying, options which can be given with a smirk...

yeah, but why should anyone be obligated to 'outsmarten' his opponent? maybe my opponent is smarter than me. maybe I have no 'creative' answer at hand. maybe I just like to lie my opponent in the face for trying to pull something on me. he is trying to get himself an unfair advantage by asking a question he is not supposed to ask. so I can give him any answer I want to.

when you call saddam and ask him, whether there are weapons of mass destruction in that shed behind his palace, do you think he will give you a semi-descriptive answer like 'there might be a nuke, a c-bomb or a dispell scroll, but I will not tell you which one it is' or 'there could be a secret weapon research facility, but you will not find out until you throw some smart bombs on it'? I think he will blatantly lie to your face, no matter whether there is something in that shed or not.

yes, I compare some of the people I play against with saddam.

Jushak
31-08-2009, 11:23
Got to love how everyone is simply assuming that the guy asking the question must be hunting for unfair advantage... There plenty of reasons why he might be doing it.

Other reasons can include, but are not limited to:

- The guy is used to playing open lists.
- The guy has seen the model perform great/bad in a recent game, and curious if the guy has changed it since then.
- The model is nicely converted, and the guy is wondering if the conversions are intended to be WYSIWYG for some magic item.

There also plenty of ways to answer to the question without being a jackass and blatantly lying. Including the simple answer of "I don't have to tell you." There is absolutely no reason why you'd have to lie, and where I play it would always be considered bad sport.

Of course there are differences between gaming groups. In some lying can just as well be the name of the game. Where I play though we prefer honesty. No one will consider you a jackass for asking stuff, but no one expects the opposition to give a simple answer either.

Milgram
31-08-2009, 16:04
jushak, no one says you HAVE to lie, but you can. usually I know something about my opponent. whether it is in my circle, on a tournament or even a PUG in a local store.

yeah, if that person I play is a pretty girl I' like to lay, I would never lie. in fact, I'd even try to lose. (ok, we all know what the chances for that are, don't we? :D) so it is situational. no one said 'I will always lie if anyone asks me about what my character is wearing'. in the end, this could even make you predictable.

in the end, whether lying is cheating or not will only be important on a tournament. at any other time it does not matter whether it is cheating or not but if you are willing to bear the reaction of your opponent. an on a tournament it is not cheating - in the situation that t10 brought up.

Izram
31-08-2009, 16:33
In a tournament, its at the whim of the judge/ref, more likely.

The Red Scourge
31-08-2009, 20:34
Obviously most people here seem to think that lying is fun and should be encouraged. I find this disturbing. The problem is, it ruins everything for anyone. Where do you draw the line? Today you lie to me about your Magic Items, but what's tomorrow? Maybe your other troops actually aren't equipped the way you tell me or they don't really have that Immune to Psych special rule you claim they have which saves them from a game-deciding Terror check?

I must be able to trust my opponent and play against him without studying his entire army book and list before the game. If that trust is lost, I would deem any future game a pure waste of time as no one guarantees me you don't make up rules along the way as befits you.

So it is okay by you, if when you ask whether my dryads are ItP say "I don't have to tell you?".

Come on ULF. Theres a huge difference between asking about unit abilities and magic equipment on characters.

A: Unit abilities are public. They're written in books, and you can easily look them up. Of course you need to be honest in this example, as this is public knowledge.

B: Items are public. So you should feel free to ask your opponent what the abilities of a Sword of Judgement/Might/Doom +2 Returning is, just as for units.

C: Items bought are not public. These are your aces in the hole, that little surprise, your opponent isn't able to include in his calculations. Asking about them and expecting a straight answer is just a bit too naive.

To use the poker analogy. Asking about troop abilities and whether they have spears or heavy armor, is like asking whether clubs are the black thingies or the red heart shaped thingies, while asking what magic items people have bought is to ask what cards they're holding.

Warhammer is a really easy and simple game not much more complicated than monopoly, taking away peoples secret and playing open lists is to take all elements of excitement from the game :)

Izram
01-09-2009, 11:23
Warhammer is a really easy and simple game not much more complicated than monopoly, taking away peoples secret and playing open lists is to take all elements of excitement from the game :)

This is questionable.

If all the elements of excitment are derived from secrets, why play warhammer?

T10
01-09-2009, 11:29
It sounds as if you think that is not sufficient.

-T10

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 11:35
In war there's always the potential for surprise.

It's foggy out there.

zedeyejoe
01-09-2009, 11:51
Yup lying is cheating. Cheating is not being honest and lying counts. If I could not believe my opponent during a game, I would not bother playing them.

As has been said earlier, you don't have to say but deliberate untruths are not on and can never be justified.

The Red Scourge
01-09-2009, 12:04
Jeez!

You people need to get out a lot more. Bluffing and banter adds to the game :)

Though should I ever meet an opponent with that attitude, I'd oblige him in his mysterious ways - and always politely reply to his requests for information, that he should spend his time on reading rule books other than waste mine with being an idiot :) Come on guys, we're talking warhammer not the launch codes for nukes right before the alien armada attacks :D

zedeyejoe
01-09-2009, 12:18
You people need to get out a lot more. Bluffing and banter adds to the game

As I said, if I cannot trust what you say, why should I bother to sully my hands playing you? Plenty of people I can trust to tell the truth without having to play people who find it fun to lie.

Adding to the game? well I have been playing for 38 years now and I still find it tough enough to beat my opponents by getting my troops in the right place at the right time. Strangely enough I have found that fun enough, without adding the odd lie here or there.

Malorian
01-09-2009, 12:27
Personally I lie and don't lie during a game.

When I first get at the club and people ask me what army I brought I'll lie. This is because they will then make a list to counter me (I take standard lists), so really my lie is just countering their cheating.

Once the game begins though if someone asks a question about what items I have I'll just tell them if it's possible for them to have that item.

Q: "Does he have the flail of skulls?"
A: "Well seeing as he isn't even modeled with a flail..."

Q: "Does he have the regen banner?"
A: "Well seeing as he just used the helm of commandment..."

Q: "Does he have the silver lance?"
A: "He might..."

Rykion
01-09-2009, 15:58
Warhammer Rulebook "The most important rule! Remember, you're playing to enjoy a challenging battle with friends, where having fun and keeping to the spirit of the game is more important than winning at any cost." It then goes on to explain how to deal with rules disputes, but that doesn't change the meaning of the opening sentence.

Lying seems to break that rule. It also brings into question if you are lying about anything else such as the total points value or your army, or if you are changing the magic items you took mid-game to fit the circumstances.

Unlike poker, Warhammer has rules on sportsmanship. Poker is also a game of simple, clear, and equal rules. Warhammer is not. The rules can be questionable, not clear in application, and each army works differently. Cheating in a game at Warhammer is far easier than poker because it has so many variations. Playing against an opponent with no sense of sportsmanship is no fun.

Tarian
01-09-2009, 16:28
Personally I lie and don't lie during a game.

When I first get at the club and people ask me what army I brought I'll lie. This is because they will then make a list to counter me (I take standard lists), so really my lie is just countering their cheating.
-snip-

Well, there is a way to avoid lying about lists too. I play HE, and run either a mage heavy, star dragon or "balanced" list most of the time. I usually have other lists thrown in for fun, and even a skaven army.

When someone wants to play me, I d6 for the list I'm fielding. That way even I don't know what I'm bringing, so there's no way they can build against me.

(That being said, sometimes people want to try against a list I've used before and I don't mind obliging.)

Messiah
01-09-2009, 17:34
So you blatantly deceived your opponent, that's cheating.

I blatantly decieve my opponents all the time when Im playing games, but would you call a feint cheating?

Also, I consider asking your opponent what magic items they have on their characters to be poor sportsmanship as well. Its a question you cant easily avoid without lying. Saying "I dont have to tell you" is about the same as saying yes.

Rykion
01-09-2009, 18:16
Also, I consider asking your opponent what magic items they have on their characters to be poor sportsmanship as well. Its a question you cant easily avoid without lying. Saying "I dont have to tell you" is about the same as saying yes.
While I agree people generally shouldn't be asking for the info, it certainly is easy to answer without a lie. As long as you consistently say "I'm not saying" there is no easy way for them to know what items you have. It's really easy when an opponent asks the first time if you just say that you won't answer any questions about which magic items you took.

Tarian
01-09-2009, 19:03
I just never answer clearly, right or wrong, so my opponent doesn't know if I'm bluffing them or not.

"Maybe." Is a viable answer that doesn't reveal anything/much (unless you are just *that* horrible at bluffing.)

Note: "you" in this context is general and not directed at anyone. :angel:

Lord 0
01-09-2009, 20:47
Saying "I'm not saying" or "I don't have to tell you" or "We play closed lists here" or any number of dodges *does* give your opponent more information. We are talking about a real life interaction, not the internet, (which many people seem to be ignoring, willfully or otherwise) and in a real life interaction as little as 10%* of what you communicate is done by the words you say. The rest is communicated by stance, tone, expression, etc.

Unless you are non-verbal *master* it is near-as-dammit impossible to eliminate all non-verbal signals when you reply - especially when prevaricating or dodging the truth; for some reason a bare-faced lie is easier for those non-skilled in non-verbal communication to pull off successfully - don't ask me why. Further more, not only do you have to be a master to successfully hide them, you *don't* have to be particularly skilled to pick up on them, even if only subconsciously. Unless you have Asberger's or autism or something similar all humans have an instinctive capacity for reading (and a much stronger one for transmitting) non-verbal communication.

When asked "Do you have such-and-such magic item" and your response is "maybe", well, was there a flicker of a smirk when you said it? You have given something away. Was there a hint of resentment in your voice? You have given something away. Granted, it is not 100% reliable, but why should I feel obliged to help out an opponent unsporting enough to ask the question in the first place with even an increase of 20% to his information?

*This number is vaguely remembered from uni, and about 15 mins of google seems to back it up.

Rykion
01-09-2009, 21:09
Saying "I'm not saying" or "I don't have to tell you" or "We play closed lists here" or any number of dodges *does* give your opponent more information. We are talking about a real life interaction, not the internet, (which many people seem to be ignoring, willfully or otherwise) and in a real life interaction as little as 10%* of what you communicate is done by the words you say. The rest is communicated by stance, tone, expression, etc.
Then simply nip it in the bud before it starts. At the start of a game with someone who doesn't know you, tell him/her of any units that are proxies or aren't WYSIWYG. Then explain you are playing closed lists and will not talk about the magic items from your list until they are used in the game. Even if you forget beforehand, you should only have to give them the "I won't tell you about my magic items until they are used" explaination once. It's hardly a game breaker, but actively lying will make your opponent think twice about playing you again.

Lord Yawgmoth
01-09-2009, 22:04
Other people have already summed up my oppinion already,
so there is nothing left for me to really say.

If any of you guys (or girls) play Magic: The gathering I would
suggest that you read this article about it, it is a different game
but it is clearly the same premise:


http://mtgsalvation.com/1069-good-game-beware-the-dark-side.html



It's interesting,
I am normally with UltimateLifeForm and NecromancyBlack on game rulings. :)

Tymell
01-09-2009, 22:45
It's not actually cheating, no, because I would define cheating as disobeying rules. There isn't any rule saying you can't lie about your equipment, that I'm aware of anyway.

I don't consider it right that a player should have to divulge anything about his army to his opponent, not with the WYSIWYG rule in effect. I think it makes for a more realistic experience: if you see something with a big gun, you try to kill it, even if you don't know the exact details of said gun. If you see something that clearly doesn't bear certain equipment, then it shouldn't.

So I don't see anything wrong in refusing to divulge info about your equipment or army composition. But there -is- something wrong in outright lying to your opponent about it. Lying, as in the original post, just seems to me to be crossing a line from just sensibly reserving certain information because you'd like to win, and going to unnecessary lengths to win. Remember, this is a game, not a sport. Sure, you'd like to win, but if you have to lie to get it then what's the point?


and in a real life interaction as little as 10%* of what you communicate is done by the words you say. The rest is communicated by stance, tone, expression, etc.

Never bought that particular statistic :p Certainly plenty -is- expressed by non-verbal communication, but that particular figure always struck me as an urban legend figure that caught on.

Killboss
01-09-2009, 23:25
yes, I compare some of the people I play against with saddam.

Sigged. As soon as i can find where to edit my sig....

Oh and, i agree that you probably could have answered the question better, but i think its OK because any player should know that they're not meant to know, and won't get a straight answer because THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO KNOW!

xragg
02-09-2009, 00:04
1. Its not extremely easy to read nonverbals. If it were, people who play online poker successfully would translate it to the table. Most cant. Most people can identify the nonverbals, but really dont know how to interpret them.

2. Since alot of people have trouble correctly interpreting nonverbals, its really not that hard to mask them. I dont consider myself an expert by any means, but I find it easy to mask mine. I am naturally very stoic to begin with, so I guess that helps alot. Anyway, all I do is ask myself a completely different question in my head before answering. Then I answer myself outloud. Not only am I taking the time to not display nonverbals (the more obvious nonverbals tend to be immediate), what nonverbals I do display will tend to reflect my internal thoughts and not a reaction to my opponent.

Also, purposely using ticks or similar "involuntary" nervous behaviors are great for not displaying nonverbals.


I have seen quite of few of state that by merely asking the question, the person is going to read the "nonverbals". As if everyone is a police interegator or professional poker gambler. Well, if its as easy as you say it is, it really doesnt matter what you say. They will read your nonverbals whether you lie, tell the truth, or just tell the person to f-off.

Skyth
02-09-2009, 00:38
It's not actually cheating, no, because I would define cheating as disobeying rules. There isn't any rule saying you can't lie about your equipment, that I'm aware of anyway.


There is also no rule saying that I can't just start removing my opponent's models randomly. The rules work on a permissive basis. Cheating is not 'doing what the rules don't disallow', it is 'doing something that the rules don't allow'.

Frankly, the rules don't say that you can lie to your opponent about what equipment the model is carrying. As it is not allowed by the rules, it is technically cheating.

A lot of the pro-lying crowd are operating under the assumption that two wrongs make a right. Regardless, if I decided to move my models an extra inch in the movement phase, I am cheating regardless of whether my opponent moved his 0.25" extra or not.

rtunian
02-09-2009, 02:12
and here we see how a slippery slope works.

while it's correct to say that the rules operate on a permissive basis, it's incorrect to assume that this permissive basis extends unilaterally to everything. after all, the rules don't say that you can breathe either. is it cheating to breathe?

there are no rules about sportsmanship. there is literally nothing in the book that describes a set of morals or ethics that gamers are responsible to uphold. so to say that the "permissive nature of the rules" extends to lying is not really any different than saying it extend to breathing.

there is only social pressure to be a "good sport", which is a term whose definition varies by locale...

xragg
02-09-2009, 02:37
there is only social pressure to be a "good sport", which is a term whose definition varies by locale...



Exactly.

I believe to blatantly lie is comparable to cheating, but I also never expect everyone will agree with me. It will vary group to group exactly what is considerable acceptable and what is considered good sportsmanship.

Yet, I dont approve of any counter-argument that uses "two wrongs make a right" ideal. Demonstrate your point from the basis that nobody ever asked you a question, and I personally will respect it so much more. Some have, but some still havent.

What it all boils down to is personal preference amoung players in a gaming group, which is what most game disputes become. Whether the resolutions are right or wrong, as long as everyone is having fun, then the decision is good.

Tymell
02-09-2009, 08:11
There is also no rule saying that I can't just start removing my opponent's models randomly. The rules work on a permissive basis. Cheating is not 'doing what the rules don't disallow', it is 'doing something that the rules don't allow'.

Frankly, the rules don't say that you can lie to your opponent about what equipment the model is carrying. As it is not allowed by the rules, it is technically cheating.

But removing models randomly isn't cheating. The definition (in this sort of scenario) of cheating would be "violating rules". There is no rule saying you can't do that. But doing so also means you're not playing Warhammer in the first place, so it renders the whole thing void.

And likewise, you're not technically cheating by lying about equipment, but it's still not right.

The Red Scourge
02-09-2009, 09:10
Lying seems to break that rule. It also brings into question if you are lying about anything else such as the total points value or your army, or if you are changing the magic items you took mid-game to fit the circumstances.

You really should get a new group of friends, with all this mistrust you've got going on.

But if you ask a dumb question, like "Where do you hide your assassins/fanatics and what items are your characters equipped with?". You should expect an answer to be equally cheeky :rolleyes:

All this talk about good sport is completely off the track. Its bad sport to ask of things like this, and its good sport to teach anyone doing so a lesson :)

Tymell
02-09-2009, 12:08
All this talk about good sport is completely off the track. Its bad sport to ask of things like this, and its good sport to teach anyone doing so a lesson :)

But surely this relies on the assumption that asking such a question is being a bad sport. It's also possible that it was asked innocently, and that a simple "I don't tell people what equipment I use" would have sufficed. Does this other player really need to be "taught a lesson"?

Milgram
02-09-2009, 12:56
But surely this relies on the assumption that asking such a question is being a bad sport. It's also possible that it was asked innocently, and that a simple "I don't tell people what equipment I use" would have sufficed. Does this other player really need to be "taught a lesson"?

we are going full circle here.

can't we just assume and agree upon that t10 (and also red) has at least 'some' experience and 'some' civil courage as to not lie to a complete n00b that just plays his first game?

EvC
02-09-2009, 13:17
there is only social pressure to be a "good sport", which is a term whose definition varies by locale...

Indeed. An opponent was telling me last week how one of the Poles at the UKGT last year had modelled his Hydra with a retractable head, which extended several inches past the model's base- meaning that he could, if he so wanted, use the Hydra's breath weapon on turn 1, by the letter of the rules, as the template is placed at whatever mouth he wants to use.

Legal? Yes. Fair? Hell no. There's tonnes of things you can do that aren't cheating- but I don't want to have to put up with that crap while I'm having a game for fun (And yes, even at a tournament that's why we play!).

nosferatu1001
02-09-2009, 13:29
Nothing in the rules allows you to alter the shape of your model during play, so he'd have had to stick with it having its neck out....

Rykion
02-09-2009, 13:44
You really should get a new group of friends, with all this mistrust you've got going on.
Strangely enough, all my friends tend to tell the truth. Sometimes I play in store against opponents I don't know though. If I find that one of them lied about something small to gain an advantage, I feel it's safe to assume I have to watch them closely for other things.

Whitehorn
02-09-2009, 13:45
Here's one for thought:
Your opponent doesn't watch your tape measure as you moved.
You didn't cheat, moving within your limit.
They ask you how far you moved a unit.

Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?

Tarian
02-09-2009, 13:49
Here's one for thought:
Your opponent doesn't watch your tape measure as you moved.
You didn't cheat, moving within your limit.
They ask you how far you moved a unit.

Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?

Simple, if it's my Swordmasters on foot and they're not being marchblocked/terrained/whatever...

"Within 10"."

Rykion
02-09-2009, 13:56
Here's one for thought:
Your opponent doesn't watch your tape measure as you moved.
You didn't cheat, moving within your limit.
They ask you how far you moved a unit.

Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?
I'd just say it was the unit's movement limit or less.

Edit: Though most of the time I would probably just say how far I moved. It depends on how "friendly" the game is.

danny7865
02-09-2009, 13:58
I think the best answer in these circumstances is what do you think ?.... It's gives no information away and your not telling someone yes or no.

Whitehorn
02-09-2009, 14:09
I said Mathhammer for a reason. Some people will remember (record) exactly how far units have moved so that they can gauge distances. In a game where you don't know a range and have to guess a charge or a shot, it's very critical information to have for the calculations. Warhammer is won in the movement phase.

This is why I warmed to FoW and WoTR's 'measure at will' rules.

Tarian
02-09-2009, 14:10
Yeah... when I face 2 mortars, 2 great cannons and a hell volley or 2... I am NOT going to tell you exactly how far I deployed or moved...

The Red Scourge
02-09-2009, 14:25
can't we just assume and agree upon that t10 (and also red) has at least 'some' experience and 'some' civil courage as to not lie to a complete n00b that just plays his first game?

Of course I'd lie to complete n00b. I also lurk in closets after dark and under childrens beds. Its just the kind of boogeyman i am :evilgrin:


Strangely enough, all my friends tend to tell the truth. Sometimes I play in store against opponents I don't know though. If I find that one of them lied about something small to gain an advantage, I feel it's safe to assume I have to watch them closely for other things.

So you expect an opponent to divulge his "secrets" and cunning strategy, should you choose to ask him? Really..? :)

There are of course some things you can't "lie" about, such as:

Q: Whats the WS of your skeletons? - as you should be able to gauge the opposition. Do note that when the skellies are revealed as WS7 instead of 2 because of The Helm of Cheese, this still isn't cheating
or
Q: Is it true that my musician makes my unit auto-rally? - The fat guy said so? - a pure rules question

These are general things that has nothing to do with the specifics of the game at hand - unlike the:

Q: Is your character equipped with the Thing-a-ma-bob of Certain Doom?

Where the correct answer can only be:

A: Yes..? Why'd you ask?

Or

A: Nope, my arch lector never runs the VHS, I wanted a Hochland Long Rifles instead, so if your 'thirster charges him, he'll be toast... Honestly :)

EvC
02-09-2009, 15:24
Nothing in the rules allows you to alter the shape of your model during play, so he'd have had to stick with it having its neck out....

Well, he can do that as well, a Hydra dose have many heads, so he can put it how he likes it really...

Rykion
02-09-2009, 15:29
So you expect an opponent to divulge his "secrets" and cunning strategy, should you choose to ask him? Really..?
What? I don't ask my opponent's secrets. I've already said earlier in this thread that you shouldn't be asking about magic items in a closed list game. I just expect that if a question is asked during a game of Warhammer, even if it is a bit out of line, that the response will be truthful. That truthful response can be "I don't answer any questions about magic items my characters may be carrying."

Avian
02-09-2009, 15:44
Here's one for thought:
Your opponent doesn't watch your tape measure as you moved.
You didn't cheat, moving within your limit.
They ask you how far you moved a unit.

Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?
That actually accured to me with one player some time ago. My solution was to (while making sure I didn't move more than I was allowed to) not check the exact distance and then honestly reply: "I don't know."

He quickly stopped asking.

Sarah S
02-09-2009, 15:45
Lying isn't cheating, but it makes you an ass.

If you don't want to tell him, then tell him you don't want to tell him.

If you lie in casual games, you will quickly run short of opponents.
If you lie in tournaments, you may find your scores tanked (or be removed from the event).

HereticLosMorte
02-09-2009, 19:25
lying is a form of cheating, plain and simple.
if your opponents asks about magic items that have not been revealed, tell him "wait and see".

CthulhuDalek
03-09-2009, 04:24
maybe my opponent is smarter than me. maybe I have no 'creative' answer at hand.

maybe I just like to lie my opponent in the face for trying to pull something on me. he is trying to get himself an unfair advantage by asking a question he is not supposed to ask. so I can give him any answer I want to.

when you call saddam and ask him...

yes, I compare some of the people I play against with saddam.

If your opponent is able to outsmart you, he is most likely the better general, In this case, you will rely on luck, and bet that he'll make more mistakes than usual. Or you will be cannily deceptive... this would give you a reason to "outsmart" him.

To the first part -- if you like to lie to your opponent there is something wrong with your ethical view. Your opponent can ask you about your army, this is not illegal -- you are not obligated to answer -- this is legal.

Your "opponent" is not Saddam(hopefully, unless he's reincarnated...) and as such, you shouldn't treat him like that. You are two friends, gamers, "sportsmen", not criminals or generals with actual lives at stake. You treat the other player with respect, they should do the same. And if they try to use sneaky tactics -- you can too, but come one -- be creative!

Ward.
03-09-2009, 05:48
Me: "... I lied."

-T10

In a tournament I would've reamed your sportsmanship score over something like that but wouldn't have complained, as you're under no pressure to reveal magic items (besides the "clearly" modeled bit).

pinegulf
03-09-2009, 08:21
This argument is retarded. It's a game. If winning means so mutch then go studu to become a lawyer.

Sure it isn't written anywhere that you shoudn't lie, but then again it isn't disallowed to eat your opponent's models. Point being that everything isn't written and you will have to make assumptions. Sure it's impossible to list them all.

I don't know all the army specific rules on all armies. Nor do I check all of them when they are told to me when I ask about them. Should I assume that the opponent is lying? Maybe. And how would the game-experience develope after second time I state that I don't trust the word of my opponent?

More examples: Throwing dice and stating more hits than dice show. Measuring and stating that range is something that it isn't. Stating stats wrongly. Stating that rules say something that they don't.
Please explain how can these actions be justified?

Condottiere
03-09-2009, 08:42
Here's one for thought:
Your opponent doesn't watch your tape measure as you moved.
You didn't cheat, moving within your limit.
They ask you how far you moved a unit.

Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?If you suspect your opponent is cheating, you could always ask a third party to verify the movement.

If my opponent or myself are moving at the limit of their respective movement allowance, I certainly can ask how far he moved, and possibly recreate that movement sequence.

nosferatu1001
03-09-2009, 08:42
Except this wasnt the original situation: is it cheating to lie over something thhe opponent has no rights to know about?

Answer:strictly no, but it can be unsporting

If the player is new /unsure / used to playing open lists then I would say it is unsporting to lie. Simpler to explain that that information is hidden.

If the player seriously knows better (closed list tournament for example) then it is not unsporting to lie: the opponent has been unsporting in asking.

zedeyejoe
03-09-2009, 09:28
Do you tell them, knowing full well that they'll mathhammer you with the data, or do you shrug and pretend you didn't really take note?

Answer, you tell the truth but don't have to cripple yourself. So 'it moved normally' or 'it march moved' is quite sufficient. Either gives enough information for them to decide it acted correctly. Truth does not require intimate detail.

Part of the game is estimating distances (and that got tougher for me as my eyes started to go but now I have glasses I am back on form). And there have always been 'cheating' methods to do this (pulling the tape measure out and looking at it whilst estimating distance, measuring distances between terrain and recording them before the game starts, measuring hands/arms length and then using those as guides to distance). Oh yes people can be very inventive about how they play the game.

My solution, just don't play people who behave like this and hopefully they will go off and stop bothering us.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 10:29
Do get off your high horse people :)

You're putting the act of giving-a-silly-answer-to-a-silly-question on the same level as blatantly cheating. Its just about the same as asking your jailer, whether you're going for a shower or if its to be poison gas today. You'll probably feel cheated, when the gas starts flowing, but more appropriately you should feel ashamed of being stupid and naive, and most you'll learn never to ask dumb questions again - you really can't blame other people for your own mistakes :)

Next you'll be swearing never to play a guy, who threatened with deploying his empire gunline, but instead of piling up cannons, he deploys neatly ranked regiments, all the while he's cunningly saying how he keeps his STanks in reserve, and you end up messing your deployment up so much that you get beaten by an army of halberdiers.

Or the guy who mentions how he has build a "little surprise" in one of his units, so when you finally gather up the courage and deploy a thousand points to take it out, he flees, flank charges and breaks your army, while yelling "SURPRISE!!!"

Warhammer works on a few more levels than just basic math. First and foremost its a social game requiring the presence of 2+ players, so if you dislike human interaction, I recommend concentrating on computer games and/or picking up a new hobby like solitaire or knitting :)

Avian
03-09-2009, 10:49
First and foremost its a social game requiring the presence of 2+ players, so if you dislike human interaction, ...
Well, if you want to get invited to play a social game with 1+ other people, I would think that one of the first things to remember is not to go around lying to other people, or you might quickly find yourself with 1+ fewer people who'd like to play against you. ;)

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 11:02
Well, if you want to get invited to play a social game with 1+ other people, I would think that one of the first things to remember is not to go around lying to other people, or you might quickly find yourself with 1+ fewer people who'd like to play against you. ;)

So when you've lost to a player, who bluffed you, and lured you into a trap, you vow never to play him again? Thats real sporty of you ;)

Remember, there's a line between lying and bluffing, it may be a fine line, but there is a line :)

EvC
03-09-2009, 12:23
Yes, and what the OP was talking about was lying, not bluffing. That is what is being condemned. You must be able to read, surely?

I agree with the statement that if someone jokingly answers a question in a silly manner, that is not cheating or even lying- it's joking. If something is said with the intent to deceive in order to gain a benefit in-game, then yes, that's lying. Whether that's a bad thing or not is up to the individual to decide- and people are free to dislike it if they like. If you don't appreicate their opinion... well, that's tough, isn't it?

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 12:39
Nope. EvC that example is called a bluff :)

I provided a few similar WFB examples earlier. But lets take a poker example.

EvC: Do you have a royal straight flush?
TRS: No..
EvC: Okay, I'll go all in with my two jacks then. Bwuhaha!
TRS: Ehrrm.. Thats beaten by my royal straight flush. Now hand me the deed to your house :)

I don't know anyone, who'd blame his opponent for losing in poker because of this. So why'd you blame a warhammer player for doing the exact same thing?

Tymell
03-09-2009, 12:45
Because poker is all about bluffing, it's an integral part of the game. But warhammer (in the terms of the original example anyway) isn't.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 12:56
Okay EvC and Tymell, I provided two examples (I'll quote them here to spare you the pain of leafing back):


Next you'll be swearing never to play a guy, who threatened with deploying his empire gunline, but instead of piling up cannons, he deploys neatly ranked regiments, all the while he's cunningly saying how he keeps his STanks in reserve, and you end up messing your deployment up so much that you get beaten by an army of halberdiers.

Or the guy who mentions how he has build a "little surprise" in one of his units, so when you finally gather up the courage and deploy a thousand points to take it out, he flees, flank charges and breaks your army, while yelling "SURPRISE!!!"

Whats the difference between the first example and these two? They're all "lies" aren't they? :)

Avian
03-09-2009, 12:57
So when you've lost to a player, who bluffed you, and lured you into a trap, you vow never to play him again?

I would really, really hope that if a player asked me a question in the game and I lied to him by deliberately giving him an answer I knew was wrong, he would never want to play against me again, because I would not deserve it.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 13:01
Avian. You too..

Consider the first and the extra two examples :)

xragg
03-09-2009, 13:09
Whats the difference between the first example and these two? They're all "lies" aren't they? :)

Its hard to describe the difference between porn and art, but everyone can tell which is which when they see it. Same is true with lies. Some lies are just wrong (blatant) and shouldnt exist in warhammer. Its hard to describe the difference between the blatant lies and mischevious bluffing, but most can tell the difference when the hear it.

Lazarus15
03-09-2009, 13:11
I think it would depend on if it was tournament, or recreational. Tourney, I would ask to see their army list.

Recreational, I would probably not play the person again, because if they have to resort to deceit as a tactic, then they probably aren't really worth playing in the first place.

The idea of the game, in recreational setting, is to out maneuver and beat him with strategy. In poker, it is a game of bluffs. Page IX of the BRB, "A miniature wargame is a game in which players command armies of model soldiers and attempt to outmaneuver and outfight each other." Kinda self explanatory with not a lot of room for error. Hence why they put the "most important rule" on page 3.

Tarian
03-09-2009, 13:22
This argument is retarded. It's a game. If winning means so mutch then go studu to become a lawyer.

:wtf: I *am* studying to become a Lawyer, and winning doesn't mean I want to sacrifice the fun of the game... Anyhow...

I agree with Xragg, I believe it is the intent behind the "bluff"/"deception"/"lie".

For me, making my opponent think a little extra, wondering why I did something, is not "lying" to him. Throwing a prince in front of a Helblaster, for example, gives him a choice to try to blast the pompous fool and risk him having a very good save, or blasting the regiment and risk missing an easy kill on my general.

However, blatantly lying to an opponent, in my opinion, is wrong. Even as a law student :angel:, winning shouldn't be as important as the social interaction with the other player.

That being said, if it's a regular gaming group and there's an implied or actual consent to "lying", then there really isn't much of a problem as both sides know to pretty much disregard whatever the other guy says during a game.

Avian
03-09-2009, 13:28
Next you'll be swearing never to play a guy, who threatened with deploying his empire gunline,...
Saying "I might bring a gunline" is not a lie unless you know for certain you won't (which is hard to know).
Saying "I will bring a gunline", is a lie if you know you might not.


but instead of piling up cannons, he deploys neatly ranked regiments, all the while he's cunningly saying how he keeps his STanks in reserve,...
Saying "I have brought a Steam Tank" when you have not is a lie.
Saying "I always keep my Steam Tanks in reserve to deploy last" may or may not be a lie depending on how you usually do it.


and you end up messing your deployment up so much that you get beaten by an army of halberdiers.
Anyone falling for any of the meta-gaming deployment "tricks" is stupid, which has little to do with the topic at hand. It is still a lie if you lie to stupid people.


Or the guy who mentions how he has build a "little surprise" in one of his units,...
This is probably not a lie as just about anything can be surprising.


so when you finally gather up the courage and deploy a thousand points to take it out, he flees, flank charges and breaks your army, while yelling "SURPRISE!!!"
Again, this is stupid.

These examples, along with "This unit is really dangerous!", placing a few extra Assassins / Fanatics by the side of the board to make your opponent think they are in your army, placing a pile of stuff in one area of your deployment zone to make your opponent think you won't deploy anything there, etc, are all meta-gaming "tricks" no sensible opponent is going to fall for.
However, whether or not they involve lying is an entirely different matter. If you say something you know is not true then you are lying, it's not rocket wizardry.

Let's say you to someone: "If you give me Ģ25 I will give you this box with a Steam Tank in it", but you know that the box is empty. In this case you are lying, regardless of whether or not you open the box to show it to the guy before he gives you the money.
If he did see that the box is empty before giving you the money he's an idiot, but that does not change the fact that you still lied.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 13:42
But you're not addressing the point Avian. If anyone plays one of these "stoopid" juvenile pranks on you, would you still play him in these? Or would you retreat to your peak of ascended mature players, who are enacting strategic simulations in a serene and enlightened atmosphere.

Me I like to "play" games with little plastic dolls ;)

narrativium
03-09-2009, 13:47
I was at a tournament this weekend. One of my games was against an Ogre player, and he had a Hunter, and I asked what he was armed with. My opponent said he may or may not have a great weapon; I'd have to engage him and see. I considered this a fair answer - I can't expect him to respond that the Hunter has a great weapon since the Hunter has no access to mundane great weapons. It may have been a bluff. He didn't lie, he simply didn't supply information he wasn't supposed to give away, and I have no problem with that.

It ended up not mattering, because I shot the Hunter to death.

Lijacote
03-09-2009, 13:48
Lying is only cheating if it goes against the social contract between the players, or if one of them does not realize the other party does not need to disclose information pertaining his or her classified upgrades to units and/or characters

Avian
03-09-2009, 13:59
But you're not addressing the point Avian. If anyone plays one of these "stoopid" juvenile pranks on you, would you still play him in these? Or would you retreat to your peak of ascended mature players, who are enacting strategic simulations in a serene and enlightened atmosphere.
If I caught my opponent in deliberately lying to me, I would not willingly play against him again, no. If he kep trying juvenile pranks that do not involve outright lying I might (in fact, I probably would) still end up not bothering to play him again. There are enough mature gamers around.



At the last tournament I attended one opponent asked if my BSB on Disc was carrying a specified magic item (I forget what it was). I told him that was for me to know and him to try and find out and he assumed (possibly because I didn't answer) that the BSB was carrying that item. That ended up being a disadvantage for him, since it turned out to be wrong.

To paraphrase a quote from a quite good movie: I'm not going to lie to you, but I'm not going to stop you lying to yourself either.

McMullet
03-09-2009, 14:03
EvC: Do you have a royal straight flush?
TRS: No..
EvC: Okay, I'll go all in with my two jacks then. Bwuhaha!
TRS: Ehrrm.. Thats beaten by my royal straight flush. Now hand me the deed to your house :)

*rolls 3d6* Sorry, I dispelled your royal flush. Now gimme the keys to your Ferrari. What? If you can apply poker conventions to Warhammer, surely it works the other way around? Why choose poker? Why not cricket? Dominoes? Jenga?

You're using poker as an example because it's a game that relies on bluffing, deceit and, indeed, lying. The basis of the game of poker is to deceive your opponent. If we were playing soccer and I punched you in the face, that would be a foul. I couldn't use boxing as an example to justify it. If the rules and conventions of a particular game disallow something, it's not allowed, regardless of what other games may allow.

Milgram
03-09-2009, 14:06
If your opponent is able to outsmart you, he is most likely the better general, In this case, you will rely on luck, and bet that he'll make more mistakes than usual. Or you will be cannily deceptive... this would give you a reason to "outsmart" him.

because someone is smart doesn't mean he can play warhammer. there is so much more to it... experience, concentration, knowledge of the rules and of both armies and more. only because someone is 'smarter' than me and therefore usually seems to know what I am thinking doesn't get him to win games.



To the first part -- if you like to lie to your opponent there is something wrong with your ethical view. Your opponent can ask you about your army, this is not illegal -- you are not obligated to answer -- this is legal.

you are right. something is wrong with my ethical view. the thing wrong is that I am 'honest' and do not fear to admit to my 'flaws'. one of which is lying. another thing is that I do not care the slightest bit about the environment. does this make me a bad person? no, it makes me a honest person - and I get jack from being honest. also I know that many people are lying to me all the time. I don't mind as long as there is no bad intention behind it.

however, the second part is NOT the answer to any question the OP intended. YES it is legal to ask questions. it is as legal as throwing dice around, not answering to questions you don't have to and lying about things you don't have to disclose. it is about the legality of lying. and there is no rule against it.


And if they try to use sneaky tactics -- you can too, but come one -- be creative!

my creativity lacks from time to time. and some times it tells me to try something new. like lying.



Why choose poker? Why not cricket? Dominoes? Jenga?

because nobody plays cricket. 'do you have a 5/5 stone?' I would not mind lying in dominoes when answering to that question.

Zilverug
03-09-2009, 14:32
It's not cheating, but it's still lying, which is also unethical.
Just not telling would be much better.

EvC
03-09-2009, 14:36
Whats the difference between the first example and these two? They're all "lies" aren't they? :)

I have stated in previous topics that anyone who hides his army and then pulls out something tricksy isn't someone I would like to play. Most reputable tournaments have a 5 minute warm-up period before every game commences where you go through the open stuff in your army, because they recognise that such behaviour that you describe doesn't make for a good game. I'm not saying I wouldn't play against someone who doesn't show me their army beforehand- but it would have to be someone I know and can trust to have a good game and not pull stupid *****. Someone telling me has has loads of Steam Tanks and then pulling out nothing like Halberdiers sounds pretty funny to me as well though, it might qualify as one of those "joke" things.

Someone saying he has a surprise and then yelling surprise? That's called a joke as well- and quite a funny one :) It isn't even a lie, because I feel I would be rather surprised if that were to happen to me!

Do you not see the difference between lying to someone's face to deceive him, and telling a joke? Man you must have one messed-up sense of humour if that's the case. You might also want to consider the social context, that there may be a difference between a game of poker and a game of warhammer. You wouldn't get away with sliding in a game of poker either by the way ;)

Edit: on reflection, I have to admit, in a cut-throat game of warhammer, where you're specifically there to do one thing and one thing only, to win at all costs and claim the glory, then lying is permissible.

One question to direct back at you Red Scourge: if your opponent left his army list lying around either before or during the game, and you could grab a sneak peek at it without them ever finding out- would you?

McMullet
03-09-2009, 15:36
because nobody plays cricket. 'do you have a 5/5 stone?' I would not mind lying in dominoes when answering to that question.
You miss my point. I wasn't saying another game was a better choice for an analogy, but that no game was suitable for such an analogy. The fact is that a convention that applies to poker (lying/deceit are essential) or dominoes (lying possibly OK, haven't played for a long time) does not apply to Warhammer.

I wouldn't smack you in the mouth for lying to me in a game of Warhammer, even though a smack in the mouth is allowed in boxing and not explicitly prohibited in Warhammer (show me the page ref in the BRB that says I can't do it). You would agree, however, that this falls outside of the boundaries concerning acceptable behaviour in Warhammer.

I won't say that lying is or isn't acceptable. The only thing that is certain is that both players need to agree beforehand. Regardless of whether or not it's "right or wrong". The lack of consensus makes it evident that not everyone agrees; the problem is that everyone is now trying to force the viewpoint that their way is the right way. Both are fine, in my opinion. I think a game of Warhammer that included diplomatic intrigue and counter-intelligence could be fun. Generally I prefer things to be more relaxed. There's no need to start enforcing your way on everyone else.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 16:46
Someone saying he has a surprise and then yelling surprise? That's called a joke as well- and quite a funny one :) It isn't even a lie, because I feel I would be rather surprised if that were to happen to me!

You misinterpreted me. I'm talking about the deception about giving you the impression that one innocent looking unit may have a hidden significance, causing you to overestimate its importance and losing the game. The "SURPRISE!" thing was just SFX.


Do you not see the difference between lying to someone's face to deceive him, and telling a joke? Man you must have one messed-up sense of humour if that's the case. You might also want to consider the social context, that there may be a difference between a game of poker and a game of warhammer. You wouldn't get away with sliding in a game of poker either by the way

Games are about hiding ones strength and weaknesses. When your opponent recognize yours, you're one step closer to losing, as he knows where to attack you. Poker is a game with hidden knowledge and trumps (your cards) just as WFB is (your hero builds). And sliding has nothing to do with this discussion.


Edit: on reflection, I have to admit, in a cut-throat game of warhammer, where you're specifically there to do one thing and one thing only, to win at all costs and claim the glory, then lying is permissible.

I'd never sacrifice fun to win a game of warhammer. Fun is the purpose of the game. Sure there are things you can bluff about, such as a mysterious hero build (untill the equipment becomes relevant i.e. rolling dice), but there are also open things like "are your skellies equipped with spears?" or "Whats the toughness of a STank?" that there is no sense in lying about, as the information is available for all - and yes you'd be an ass for lying about these.


One question to direct back at you Red Scourge: if your opponent left his army list lying around either before or during the game, and you could grab a sneak peek at it without them ever finding out- would you?

I can safely say, I would not. Not knowing, making assumptions and guesses is half the fun in WFB :)

Where I come from, we don't announce what spells we roll, nor what lores we choose either. Some of us might cheat because of this, though I hardly doubt it, we're not the type.

We come with the attitude that we play to have a good time. This doesn't mean that we go light on cheese, or doesn't have a "heated rules debate" once in a while. What it means is that we're in it for the game and the tactics - winning is just an added bonus (for which you end up buying the first round - what a prize :D).

To give a great example of how we play, was how I spoiled my teammates tactics in a 5K 2v2 match this weekend, when I pointed out to my opponent, that he could just put his pistoliers by the lakeshore, to block for my teammates obvious black knight charge across the lake :)

But when people do something blatantly stupid, like asking how a hero is kitted out and expecting an honest answer. We punish them with no remorse. Its tough love, as you learn the best from your mistakes.

And don't take it too seriously. After all this is just a game. And you play games to have fun :)

BTW: As an added bonus. The key to winning WFB in my experience doesn't lie in cheating, but in not giving a rats ass about your opponents strategy. To fully concentrate on your own, and when you've forced your opponent to react to your tactics and have taken the initiative, you've won the game - or lost it if you had a poor battle plan ;)

zedeyejoe
03-09-2009, 17:16
Remember, there's a line between lying and bluffing, it may be a fine line, but there is a line

I hope you will not mind too much if I disagree with you.


If I caught my opponent in deliberately lying to me, I would not willingly play against him again, no. If he kep trying juvenile pranks that do not involve outright lying I might (in fact, I probably would) still end up not bothering to play him again. There are enough mature gamers around.

A point of view I totally agree with.

IMHO no one has the right to play games. If they wish to make themselves unpleasant to play against, then they deserve to be excluded.

Lazarus15
03-09-2009, 20:51
Right on, on that last point, Zedeyejoe.

Messiah
03-09-2009, 22:34
I thought this was relevant: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/a_j_jacobs_year_of_living_biblically.html

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 07:24
I think it's dangerous to try and categorize this, but for Warhammer:

Lying - falsehood told to me in a personal capacity, deliberately providing false information to gain an advantage in the game

Deception - deceiving me without actually feeding me false information

Bluffing - disinformation within the bounds of the game

CthulhuDalek
04-09-2009, 19:59
because someone is smart doesn't mean he can play warhammer. there is so much more to it... experience, concentration, knowledge of the rules and of both armies and more. only because someone is 'smarter' than me and therefore usually seems to know what I am thinking doesn't get him to win games.


you are right. something is wrong with my ethical view. the thing wrong is that I am 'honest' and do not fear to admit to my 'flaws'. one of which is lying. another thing is that I do not care the slightest bit about the environment. does this make me a bad person? no, it makes me a honest person - and I get jack from being honest. also I know that many people are lying to me all the time. I don't mind as long as there is no bad intention behind it.

however, the second part is NOT the answer to any question the OP intended. YES it is legal to ask questions. it is as legal as throwing dice around, not answering to questions you don't have to and lying about things you don't have to disclose. it is about the legality of lying. and there is no rule against it.



my creativity lacks from time to time. and some times it tells me to try something new. like lying.



If someone is smarter than you, they'll most likely understand the rules better. Hence why I said it's up to luck. I don't just mean they got A's in their classes dude, so you're obviously misinterpreting what I've said.

Someone who can outclass you in a game of intellect, could "dupe" you in ways that would not resort to cheating... I don't think it's as clear cut as "he knows the rules better so BAM!" My friend Jacob has won a few times, as a n00b, he doesn't have as great a grasp on the rules as I do, but since I help him by pointing out rules and such he still does pretty well.

You can be a honest person and still be a bad person ;)

I'm usually honest, and I can be an ****!

The difference here is that you're saying "I know I'm lying, so therefore lying is GOOD." Whereas you're *implying* "I know lying is bad, but I do it anyway."

PART of the OP's question relies on the idea that "two wrongs make a right" because "He shouldn't have asked an illegal question, and so I *deserved* to give him an illegal answer." So you dismiss my argument, when in fact it's VERY important to his question.

Your "creativity" is immoral and would warrant certain folks from playing with you.

The Red Scourge
04-09-2009, 23:53
Your "creativity" is immoral and would warrant certain folks from playing with you.

Well, I'd play milgram any time over "certain folks".

If I'm a sucker to fall for a ruse, I deserve whats coming and I'll take my beating like a man - whining and cursing like a little girl :p

CthulhuDalek
05-09-2009, 20:06
Well, I'd play milgram any time over "certain folks".

If I'm a sucker to fall for a ruse, I deserve whats coming and I'll take my beating like a man - whining and cursing like a little girl :p

Look, I've already said, if you can outsmart your opponent through deception without resorting to lying, then you are a good player. If you have to resort to straight up lying "Oh yeah, typhus has 5 wounds, I know for a fact!" versus... "Hmm, I don't think it'd be wise to charge Typhus?", "why?", "oh, no reason."

Mondobot
17-09-2009, 10:46
I am not even going to justify my reply. Not disclosing information in closed lists is fine. Lying is wrong. Bad puppy, no, NO! Right where's the cattle-prod.
(No animals were harmed in the posting of this reply)

SKyRE115
17-09-2009, 20:04
I'm gonna say that if you lie about things like what wargear your characters have, then its acceptable, no matter how deplorable or immoral. One important aspect of war is misdirection and getting your enemy to do what you want. Since this game tries to replicate warfare, in a fashion, this aspect should still be represented. Remember, that the Warhammer World is not a happy place, full of happy-go-lucky generals. Sometimes deception is a tactic. If someone asked me if my character had a runefang, my answer could potentially affect his/her decisions. So if I lied about it, I could set up a trap and draw my opponent in.

Other things that can justify lying can be playing within the character of your army, Dark Elves and Skaven in particular. I've always found it entertaining to don the character of my army and my opponents usually know what to expect when I do. If I play skaven, then I lie like no one's business but always mix a little truth in here and there. That way I can always keep my opponent guessing and there's generally a thrill about it for both me and my opponent.

Now while I would support the tactic of deception, there is a line where this can become outright cheating, like if someone were to asks me if that character in my unit is wounded and I say "no", knowing full well that he is down to his last wound. This is CHEATING. These are general housekeeping things that shouldn't be used for an advantage. I also won't lie about the identities of my units, if I'm asked if that unit over there is a unit of Plague Monks, then I would gladly let them know that they are. However, if i was further asked "what do they do" or "what makes them different", then I wouldn't simply say that "You'll find out". Remember, knowledge is Power, use it well.

So, if you agree then you agree. If you don't then take an item that forces me to tell you truth, some armies have those things you know, Empire and Brettonia, plus the high elf spell Vaul's unmaking. If someone tells you something about their wargear, be a little suspicious, you will find out sooner or later. Lastly, this is war, and nobody wears a sign that says "runefang right here" on their back, so expect the worst, that way you wont' be disappointed.