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Kburn
28-08-2009, 04:39
The more Horus Heresy novels I read, the more dubious the emperor's motives seem to become.

1)His dictatorial subjugation of local populace - Every world he conquers he immediately puts under the imperium's heel and forces them to produce supplies for his crusade....some people will say this is necessary in a harsh galaxy, which leads me to the second point.

2)His desperation to conquer to known universe - What were the threats then? When the imperium was hyper efficient and all conquering? Eldar, which is still irrelevant till this day. Orks, which is a bad excuse, as there were no arch-arsonists or tharkas around then. The warp? Why not just kill all psykers, or use black ships as they're doing in the present day?

What threats are around now? When the imperium is decaying, superstitious and slow beyond all measure? Tyranids (Far bigger threat than anything else, they even block out everything in the warp due to their shadow), Necrons, which almost ended everything in the war against the old ones, Chaos marines, thanks to the emperor. In fact, the only enemy actually relevant now from the great crusades are orks.

If the decaying imperium can defend themselves against far greater threats compared to the emperor's time, what was his hardcore policies for?

3)His secrecy. He seemed busy enough not to care about what happened in the great crusade, till Horus rebelled against him and destroyed everything. Also, what's up with the golden throne not allowing daemons into terra? So what if terra was destroyed? Tons of worlds were destroyed by him in the first place for being a locus for the warp.

4)What's up with the xenophobia? It seems that several races has joined up in a council to fight against chaos, as told in the Alpha legion book. Also, the watchers in the dark were part of some council too. Why not join them? He surely knew about them, since he would have great informational sources?

5)His restrictions on psykers - While untrained psykers are a locus for the warp to find its way to the known world, trained psykers like librarians and imperial sanctioned psykers seem to do well enough. Besides, he's a psyker himself?

To me he just sounds like a megalomaniac dictator who wants the whole universe to revolve around him...Well, he sure had a pyrrhic victory in that sense, everyone uses the astronomican, but the only problem is that he has benn a millimeter away from death for the last 10 thousand years....

HsojVvad
28-08-2009, 04:50
And because of him, we have the Tyranid problem, (my speculation, no proof) Because he is the strongest pysker and what ever he did with the pyschic explosion, it caused the Tyranids to come here in the first place.

I am not starting to like the Emperor. The more I read about him, the more of a Dictator he is, and from what I have, he is the worst ever, worse than Hitler, Attila, Stalin all combined.

Raven Down
28-08-2009, 04:55
Looks like your reading these books with a vision of the Emperor as the divinity and paragidim of all that is good and just,He's Not.

1)He realises the need of Industry to preserve Humanity having risen from the Dark Ages of Humanity

2)Simple,He did want control of the entire galaxy,He wanted to place Humanity at the top of the Ladder

3)Terra is a great Symbol for Humantiy,The foundation from which the Imperium was built.The Emperor would not let something as important as the Heart of Humanity fall to a Daemonic Incursion.

4) He's Racist maybe?Not really sure here

5) Also never really understood this eiter,Sure their dangerous if not monitered but they are not exactly hard to recruit and efficiently train to repel possesion or worse.

And because of him, we have the Tyranid problem, (my speculation, no proof) Because he is the strongest pysker and what ever he did with the pyschic explosion, it caused the Tyranids to come here in the first place.


I am not starting to like the Emperor. The more I read about him, the more of a Dictator he is, and from what I have, he is the worst ever, worse than Hitler, Attila, Stalin all combined.

Yes he is, But this in a world so different than ours, that Murder,Excuetion,Death and Destruction are nothing but normal occurences.
While we view these crimes as horrendus in 40K they are not

Imperius
28-08-2009, 05:03
A man who exists to conquer, to smite all xeno races to protect his own.

Would you suddenly think that he is a 'good guy' if he was getting his ass kicked and decides to retaliate?
I think he is a good guy because he destroys the problem before it gets to big.

- No, he realizes that if the Ork population got too big, it would defeat itself and the Imperium.

- The Eldar may be weak now, but given enough time they'll grow either big enough or advanced enough to pose a real threat to 'intruding humans.'

- Chaos was around, and Chaos is everywhere. What better than to minimize it than to take over the planet? A good example is in the Black Templars codex, Crusade Ophidium Gulf. The Templars find a primitive race that worships chaos, and we all know chaos is the biggest threat to humanity so they smote the planet along with the Dark Angels.

- Dark Eldar being the raiders that they are. It doesn't take a genious to figure out that if you need to protect your ships you need to protect agians't them. Destroy them utterly and you will have the peace of mind on your ships and planets.

- Necrons, too little known. So few people know about them that it doesn't come across the Emperor too much as a threat.

- Tyranids exist only to make themselves bigger. This is perfectly fine seeing as they are animals rather than sentient beings. But, the population is at a threat. KILL.

- Tau, an upstart race that wants nothing other than to conquer the galaxy? Are you kidding me? I wouldn't let that happen to my beloved empire that I worked so long for.

In short, yes he was a brutal Emperor, but he is responsible for letting countles TRILLIONS of people have peaceful lives, and since planets aren't exactly close to eachother...The completely war dedicated ones are a far distant story to a peaceful one.
All they need to know is that they serve the Emperor and he is great. If 99% of your population support the Emperor and alot of it WORSHIPS him, the population doesn't feel oppressed. Rather it feels safe and lives perfectly fine knowing that billions of warships are scattered across the galaxy hunting anyone that would kill them.

that_guy123
28-08-2009, 05:11
As I recall from all the history of the emperor he was doing all these things to save mankind from chaos and the necrons
2)He wanted to reunite mankind. The alien races that mankind fought in the crusade were far worse then the are now. the largest of the ork waaaghs! was small to what they faced in the crusades
3)As Raven Down said With out terra the imperium would collapse.
4)he wanted mankind to be the rulers of the galaxy and those pesky aliens just get in the way:p
5)As said before psykers are dangerous to his plans to stop chaos some are useful while others are used to keep the astronomican going. and afaik they did have black ships during the crusade.

BrotherMoses
28-08-2009, 05:14
Surely you know that with humanity beset on all sides there is little time for outdated 'morality'. Our glorious Emperor united all of mankind to rule the stars from the Golden Throne of Terra. Racism is an outdated concept in the grim darkness of the far future. Hatred is the greatest weapon the Emperor gave us. Why would I turn it upon my black, yellow, or even brown brethren when there are things out there FAR worst. No, in the future the hatred of humanity shall be reserved for the xenos, the mutant, and the heretic.

librisrouge
28-08-2009, 05:22
He's building a machine.

A galaxy spanning machine made out of policy, people, and regulations that will buy humanity time, precious time. About 11,000 years of time by my reckoning. In that time humanity will finally approach that place where the forces of chaos can be met on even footing. Humanity would be a psychic race able to met chaos in the warp and take the eternal war to the strongholds of the gods, ending it forever and returning the warp to its previously untainted status.

This plan failed.

Now his plan (or atleast the plan formed by brain part 8763.2) is to form the collective souls of human faithful into a semi-benevolent chaos god that will stand up for humanity, similar to the Eldar plan.

In all likelihood, this plan may succeed but what the semi-benevolent chaos god will do once it's the only power in the warp is another issue. It all depends on if the blatant phobias, fears, hates, and angers from the absorbed faithful is enough to overwhelm the Star Child at the core of this new god. YHWY help us all, we're shafted.

Joezombie
28-08-2009, 05:26
Hmm... Chaos was a BIG threat. What he was trying to do was prevent it from becoming as big as it is in "present" 40k. He knew that to save humanity was to destroy the rest of the universe, as told in Legion. But he chose that over everything else. Humanity, and only an atheist, united, brutal, controlled spy-evolved humanity had any chance for a lasting survival in the galaxy. Maybe he knew of the tyranids, and was trying to prepare for them?

But remember, nothing, I mean NOTHING threatens him personally (he beat and imprisoned the Red Dragon!), but humanity needed protecting.

Israfael
28-08-2009, 05:31
Xenophobia..? How many worlds that were rediscovered were being preyed upon by xeno?

Humanity was being murdered, enslaved and worse by the horrors that stalked the stars - and I can assure you they never thought twice about the well being of humans. How can you pity them when the tables are turned?

Now don't get me wrong - I'm sure several "innocent" worlds fell, worlds that were misunderstood etc. The problem is, if you wish to reunite humanity you must remove the only thing stopping it from doing so.

Without the Emperor we would be an extinct species, period. He saved us from ourselves, as well as the aliens.

Survival means sacrifice. No matter how painful they may be.

Kburn
28-08-2009, 05:52
My point #2 was just to highlight the fact that the emperor did not need to use such heavy handed policies to conquer the known universe then, as the threats during his time was relatively small. It's like trying to kill an ant with nuclear weapons.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-08-2009, 05:59
The more Horus Heresy novels I read, the more dubious the emperor's motives seem to become.

His motives or His execution of actions to accomplish those goals?


1)His dictatorial subjugation of local populace - Every world he conquers he immediately puts under the imperium's heel and forces them to produce supplies for his crusade....some people will say this is necessary in a harsh galaxy, which leads me to the second point.

Yes, it is necessary. The Great Crusade was like any other imperial expansion- the more you conquer, the more you need to sustain it. If you falter, the momentum is lost. And the Emperor had a singular vision to unite Humanity under one banner. Otherwise, in the aftermath of the Old Night, Humanity as a species would be extinguished.


2)His desperation to conquer to known universe - What were the threats then? When the imperium was hyper efficient and all conquering? Eldar, which is still irrelevant till this day. Orks, which is a bad excuse, as there were no arch-arsonists or tharkas around then. The warp? Why not just kill all psykers, or use black ships as they're doing in the present day?

Orks were a massive threat back then as now. Remember when Horus saved the Emperor's life? From an Ork Warboss?

That warboss was the size of a Leman Russ.

Between the Fall of the Eldar and the Age of Strife, Orks had filled the vacuum of power (among other races) and infested the galaxy. They were a threat.

And kill all psykers? No. Despite the massive danger they represent, psykers also represent a) the future of the Emperor's vision for Humanity and b) one of the foundations of the Imperium, that is to say, the Navis Nobilite, Scholastica Psykana, etc.

And the Black Ships were around then. Re: Sisters of Silence in the Tales of Heresy book.


What threats are around now? When the imperium is decaying, superstitious and slow beyond all measure? Tyranids (Far bigger threat than anything else, they even block out everything in the warp due to their shadow), Necrons, which almost ended everything in the war against the old ones, Chaos marines, thanks to the emperor. In fact, the only enemy actually relevant now from the great crusades are orks.

There were threats to Mankind back in the day other than Orks. The reason the Imperium is not threatened by them in the present M41 is that the Emperor took care of these threats (i.e., perpetrated the genocide of said races). But go on.


If the decaying imperium can defend themselves against far greater threats compared to the emperor's time, what was his hardcore policies for?

The decaying Imperium is only barely defending itself from these threats, and failing. Had the Emperor succeeded in His vision, uniting the over two million worlds of Mankind under His banner, and not been betrayed by Horus, Humanity would have entered a new Golden Age, conquered the galaxy from star to star, exterminated all the lesser xenos races, and would likely be in a much better spot to face the threats of today.

The Heresy was an unbelievable setback, to understate.


3)His secrecy. He seemed busy enough not to care about what happened in the great crusade, till Horus rebelled against him and destroyed everything. Also, what's up with the golden throne not allowing daemons into terra? So what if terra was destroyed? Tons of worlds were destroyed by him in the first place for being a locus for the warp.

He had bigger things to worry about. He was trying to piece together another part of His grand vision, an Imperial webway much like that of the Eldar (actually including breaking into their Webway and stealing it like someone stealing a parking spot in a private lot). Unfortunately when Magnus sent Him warning of Horus' treachery, he broke the Webway portal the Emperor was making and let in a mess of Daemons. It's only by His Will alone that these Daemons are now held at bay.

Terra is the seat of the Imperium. It has both political, historical, and physical significance as the seat of the Imperium. The Imperium is the salvation of Mankind. Ergo it must be saved from destruction, it is much more important than any run-of-the-mill world that suffers a daemonic infestation.


4)What's up with the xenophobia? It seems that several races has joined up in a council to fight against chaos, as told in the Alpha legion book. Also, the watchers in the dark were part of some council too. Why not join them? He surely knew about them, since he would have great informational sources?

During the Dark Age of Technology Mankind made alliances with alien races. With the fall of Mankind in the Age of Strife, these aliens turned upon the humans and killed, subjugated, enslaved, and brutalized them. Aliens cannot be trusted, no matter what potential boons might be gained from their mercurial allegiance. Best to kill them all and study the corpses.


5)His restrictions on psykers - While untrained psykers are a locus for the warp to find its way to the known world, trained psykers like librarians and imperial sanctioned psykers seem to do well enough. Besides, he's a psyker himself?

His restrictions at the Council of Nikea were on sorcery- the pacts with Warp powers that inevitably lead to ruin.

And destroying psykers who are too weak of will to control their own powers is just a matter of course. Psykers are rare, and those who can keep the things in the Warp from entering their skulls are rarer indeed. To not place controls on them is to invite the sundering of the material universe and bring death and madness on every living soul.

And he's not just any psyker- He's the single most powerful psyker Humanity (and perhaps the galaxy) has ever produced. He has lived for tens of thousands of years, guiding Mankind along the narrow precipice that will ensure their mere survival. He's long mastered His psychic potential and demonstrated ability to keep the beasts of the Warp at bay. There is no grounds to judge Him for being a psyker.


To me he just sounds like a megalomaniac dictator who wants the whole universe to revolve around him...Well, he sure had a pyrrhic victory in that sense, everyone uses the astronomican, but the only problem is that he has benn a millimeter away from death for the last 10 thousand years....

He's the megalomaniac we need to survive.

the_picto
28-08-2009, 10:19
The emperor is a monster, the inquisition is a monster, the space marines are monsters and the human race has become monstrous. The galaxy of 40k is filled with monsters and the emperor felt that to save humanity he had to turn it into something as scary as the threats it faced. This doesn't make him the good guy.

There may have been other ways to save the human race that didn't involve creating the most brutal regime ever. The whole sacrificing liberty for security and getting neither idea springs to mind.

Dr. Hellbeast
28-08-2009, 10:28
The Emperor is probably similar to Tzeentch in the way he operates, but obviously nowhere near as layered and intricate in his machinations. He most likely does/did have a grand plan for humanity that was to play out over long millenia. It wouldn't make sense to a mortal mind due to being on a far grander scheme than a fleeting consciousness could comprehend.

grissom2006
28-08-2009, 10:43
He could of always decided to stay on Terra and never created the Primarchs never helped out throughout Terra's history pushing it forwards. Left the Void Dragon on Terra instead of locking it up on Mars made the Imperium nothing more than what was within the solar system. Result mankind dying out due to over population the finite resources within the solar system all running out. As the rest of Mankind if it ever reached the stars gets preyed upon by all the other races out there. Orks wonder about uncontrolled taking over everything they see and find sooner or later getting to Terra. Also as seen as the human race is meant to be evolving and becoming more and more psychic. The bright light in the warp that is the Emperors soul burning like a beacon gets even more noticed by the millions and millions of other Psykers still in the Terra system instead of spread out among the stars.

His goal was simple a united people striving to a single goal the glory of mankind and masters of there own destiny. Free from religion and superstition with there minds so fixed on what they could achieve the influence Chaos could have would of dropped.

t-tauri
28-08-2009, 10:46
Moved to 40k background. Please post in the appropriate area.

will564752
28-08-2009, 13:49
1)His dictatorial subjugation of local populace - Every world he conquers he immediately puts under the imperium's heel and forces them to produce supplies for his crusade....some people will say this is necessary in a harsh galaxy, which leads me to the second point.

Right, ok.


2)His desperation to conquer to known universe - What were the threats then? When the imperium was hyper efficient and all conquering? Eldar, which is still irrelevant till this day. Orks, which is a bad excuse, as there were no arch-arsonists or tharkas around then. The warp? Why not just kill all psykers, or use black ships as they're doing in the present day?

What threats are around now? When the imperium is decaying, superstitious and slow beyond all measure? Tyranids (Far bigger threat than anything else, they even block out everything in the warp due to their shadow), Necrons, which almost ended everything in the war against the old ones, Chaos marines, thanks to the emperor. In fact, the only enemy actually relevant now from the great crusades are orks.

If the decaying imperium can defend themselves against far greater threats compared to the emperor's time, what was his hardcore policies for?

The Tabletop races are not all the Xeno species in the galaxy! There are thousands and thousands of Xeno races, each which posed a threat to the Imperium.

His Hardline policies were for the good of humanity.

The Imperium in M41 is not coping with the enemies its surrounded by, its slowly but surely crumbling.


3)His secrecy. He seemed busy enough not to care about what happened in the great crusade, till Horus rebelled against him and destroyed everything. Also, what's up with the golden throne not allowing daemons into terra? So what if terra was destroyed? Tons of worlds were destroyed by him in the first place for being a locus for the warp.

The Emperor personally led the Great Crusade for many decades. Only after Ullanor did he return to Terra to start an extremley important project; The Imperial Webway. This Project was going to free humanity from reliance on the Warp for travel and communication arguably weakening the power of Chaos and its hold over humanity.

And look at the symbolic significance of Terra. It may only be one planet, but it is the birthplace of humanity, the first world conquered by the Emperor, and the Capital of the Imperium. Each Empire needs a capital after all.


4)What's up with the xenophobia? It seems that several races has joined up in a council to fight against chaos, as told in the Alpha legion book. Also, the watchers in the dark were part of some council too. Why not join them? He surely knew about them, since he would have great informational sources?

His xenophobia was essentially 'playing it safe'. During the Dark Age of Technology the human federations held many "non-Aggression" pacts with xeno races. As the galaxy descended into the Age of Strife many of these aliens 'betrayed' humanity and enslaved many human worlds. The Emperor therefore decreed that aliens should not be trusted and should be wiped out, better safe than sorry after all.


5)His restrictions on psykers - While untrained psykers are a locus for the warp to find its way to the known world, trained psykers like librarians and imperial sanctioned psykers seem to do well enough. Besides, he's a psyker himself?

Every time a Psyker uses his powers he disturbs the warp and risks corruption or even possession. The Emperor was trying to weaken Chaos and protect humanity from the warp. Also look what happened to Psykers during the Age of Strife, countless worlds were lost because of untrained psykers welcoming Daemons in.

I guess he just didn't trust others in the sense that many Psykers couldn't resist the whispers of Chaos, and all it takes is one rogue Psyker to bring down Systems of planets.

Condottiere
28-08-2009, 14:16
The Emperor obviously wants Humanity to survive and thrive; there must be some benevolence there, since most immortal being after 100 centuries would be come rather introspective and withdrawn, the survival of their species becoming an academic question.

His methods seem crude by the potential personal power he could wield; his successors have turned blunt instruments created at the beginning of the IoM into blunter and less focused ones.

ryng_sting
28-08-2009, 18:30
Not many people have forged a galactic Empire with leaflet campaigns, coffee mornings and appeals to the inherent goodness of man.

Imperius
28-08-2009, 19:01
It's like trying to kill an ant with nuclear weapons.

Well if the 'ant' in this case is bigger, better and stronger than you are and is also threatening the lives of literally countless people you DESTROY that ant son!

blindingdark
28-08-2009, 19:15
Not many people have forged a galactic Empire with leaflet campaigns, coffee mornings and appeals to the inherent goodness of man.

lol, sig'ed it.:)

Clockwork-Knight
28-08-2009, 19:21
Let's not exagerate the size of the ork warboss who managed to get a good grip on the emperor and nearly strangled him.

The Emperor is the most powerful human psyker there is and might ever be, but he's not an infallible fighter, and his psychic powers probably were only of the mind-war stuff that Eldar are capable, a little bit of telepathy, shielding, and looking into the future to a certain point (he had no idea that things were getting so much out of control, and was utterly surprised by Horus' betrayal, and feared that he might not survive the battle). Shooting lightning bolts and creating fire storms out of his mind is not something he can do, else, he wouldn't create superhumans and try to find ways to enhance psychic abilities, and supermachines.

The Emperor tried to prevent the fall of mankind after the great transformation into a psychic race like the eldar or the humans, which will happen shortly in a few centuries after M41..
However, because of an Inquisition scheme, the Emperor cannot heal and teach future psychic mankind how to protect themselves, and dying and being reborn into whatever weird warpgod (starchild idea) won't help mankind, as humanity is already psychicallly bound to the Four Gods of Chaos.

Now, many thousands of worlds are being overrun by daemons, unleased through psychic mutations and freak warpstorms that ignorant human psykers called for, even when they were loyal to the Imperium.

The Emperor dying and being reborn won't help mankind, because then, it would be too late.

Brother Antonios
28-08-2009, 19:26
The Horus Heresy books are not the only source of 40k history, that may be skewing your perspecitve and judging by a few of your ideas it really is.

You say "...as there were no arch-arsonists or tharkas around then..." ohh boy, yea they were even worse and iirc the only Xeno to ever come close to killing the big E was an Ork warlord.

You say "....dictatorial subjugation of local populace..." this was only put in place if the planet was non-xeno, non-chaos, and resisted, nobody writes about the nine hundred thousand planets that joined peacefully only the 10% that had to be fought over are ever mentioned or those xeno or chaos that were purged, because that's what makes a good story.

As for the idea Tyranids were attracted by the the Astronomicon? Remember Eldar and Orcs have fought Genestealers before humankind existed. It's not clear if this is the first time the 'Nids have swept though the Milky Way or the 100th. They may be a neceary evil, if a Galaxy has evoled enough to survive them, it's lifeforms continue to advance, if not they get devoured and millions of years later new lifeforms get a chance, remember 40K is nothing compared to the five billion plus years the Galaxy has existed.

Imperialis_Dominatus and others have nailed it all, I can only add you should read more Kbrun you will be surprised how deep this rabbit hole goes....

Israfael
28-08-2009, 19:46
Let's not exagerate the size of the ork warboss who managed to get a good grip on the emperor and nearly strangled him.

The Emperor is the most powerful human psyker there is and might ever be, but he's not an infallible fighter, and his psychic powers probably were only of the mind-war stuff that Eldar are capable, a little bit of telepathy, shielding, and looking into the future

First of all, it's been stated in several sources that the warboss choking the Emperor was the "largest" that had ever been seen and for that matter - that may still be true. Keep in mind that the Emperor beat down a C'tan star god and imprisoned it, a deity for thrones sake - yet this ork was choking the life out of him, it was no basic warboss.

As for not being a "powerful" offensive psyker, he struck Horus with an offensive mind blast of such frightening power that the chaos gods sensing the attack pulled their power back from Horus; when four ancient gods flee from your wrath - that sounds pretty "powerful" to me.

Clockwork-Knight
28-08-2009, 19:59
No, none of the sources states that the warboss was the largest that had ever been seen. It was a big ork, because it was a warboss (oh my, what coincidence).

Also, I did mention mind-war-stuff as being part of his repertoire.

About the c'tan, either it's an impressive feat, managing to do what mighty eldar fleets and their gods could not do, and is a damn retcon about retconned beings on par with a few space marines capable of destroying craftworlds whereas the rest of the Imperium craps into their pants when thinking about doing such a feat, or it's absolutely worthless, as the void dragon might have been so weakened more than 65 million years ago that it was a pushover.

Either case, that means nothing.

Imperialis_Dominatus
28-08-2009, 20:12
One of the first three Horus Heresy books, I don't remember which- the Ork Warboss that Horus saved the Emperor from was preserved and on display. I'm not exaggerating its size, thank you. :wtf:

And are you saying that either the Void Dragon was at full strength or it was, at the point when the Emperor fought it, at exactly the same strength it had been millions of years ago when it was defeated? Nice false dichotomy you're creating there.

Israfael
28-08-2009, 20:43
No, none of the sources states that the warboss was the largest that had ever been seen. It was a big ork, because it was a warboss (oh my, what coincidence).

So you clearly haven't read the Heresy series, yet inform others of what information is and isn't available; interesting.


Also, I did mention mind-war-stuff as being part of his repertoire.

I believe it's safe to assume the most powerful psyker of all time has the same destructive power as a lower level psyker and then some. To suggest otherwise is silly. If he went around crushing planets the fluff would be severely lacking and his crusade wouldn't make sense - it's a lore shield.


About the c'tan, either it's an impressive feat, managing to do what mighty eldar fleets and their gods could not do, and is a damn retcon about retconned beings on par with a few space marines capable of destroying craftworlds whereas the rest of the Imperium craps into their pants when thinking about doing such a feat, or it's absolutely worthless, as the void dragon might have been so weakened more than 65 million years ago that it was a pushover.

Either case, that means nothing.

Er, no? It means everything based upon the discussion at the moment.

Your opinion is just that, your opinion - which means little when backed by no cannon sources.

dude37
29-08-2009, 00:14
The Emperor is probably similar to Tzeentch in the way he operates, but obviously nowhere near as layered and intricate in his machinations. He most likely does/did have a grand plan for humanity that was to play out over long millenia. It wouldn't make sense to a mortal mind due to being on a far grander scheme than a fleeting consciousness could comprehend.

spot on.
he is a god that knows all and has planed everything, though apparently not well (well look at 40k) unless that is planed too. he only deserved to be worshiped and honored for his acheivements. the power of the imperium could crush any 2 races, possibly 3 depending on who u chose, that are currently on our galaxy (i mean not all the tyranids).

Urath
29-08-2009, 01:05
The Emperor was certainly brutal, but just because he had the best intentions for the survival of his race, doesn't make him a "good guy". Sure, to humanity he was indeed but in universe he was a brutal warlord who sought dominance over the galaxy and sought to crush anything that could threaten his dream.

He was a bad guy.

Dexter099
29-08-2009, 01:34
I don't think you get the Xenophobia.

Aliens aren't human. They don't have human reason. You can never know what they might really want, or how they work. They have absolutely nothing in common with a man. Nothing. So why should they want to help mankind?

The Emperor was born around 2000 BC or so, and forsaw the Heresy and everything. He also realized that if he did not reunite the scattered fragments of humanity, then they would be devoured by an uncaring galaxy.

Overall, I think he succeeded. He saved humankind at a point where it was scattered and lost, and made humans the dominant race in the galaxy. So kudos to him.

Johnmclane
29-08-2009, 02:23
The best part about the wwhole 40k universe in my book is that all races are evil, considering normal civilised ethics.

The empire is a huge fascist organisation, racist in every way and most likely to obliterate planets if anyone thinks different. If it is a dictatorship ... well it's not democracy thats for sure.
If the emperor had any good intentions they where probably the same as julius ceasar, hitler, stalin and any other dictator trying to build an obidient empire.

My personal view is that the empire are the bad guys and chaos the "good" guys, being more democratic and individualistic (that has changed some during the evolvation of 40k, now they are a bit more horrormovie generic evil). That is from my opinion that the empire represent a harsh fascist inquisitorial iron fist rule.

But all in all are races are as bad as the other, everyone is completly racist (xenophobical), selfish and aggressive against all the other races, but noone consider themselves evil or bad.

Just look at the conflict in society today, Noone would follow a cause they thought were "evil", everyone acts for the greater good or to follow their beliefs that they yhink are the best way (or the good way, may it be an al-quida guy, a neo-nazi, an anarchist, a democrat ... or an ork, eldar, imperial guardsman or a chaos cultist. )


Rant over... :)

BrotherMoses
29-08-2009, 03:00
cling to life atm

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-08-2009, 07:59
The Emperor was born around 2000 BC or so, and forsaw the Heresy and everything.

8000 b.c. and no, he couldn't foresee the Heresy (going by normal sources, fan theories can take these or leave them). But otherwise your points are good.

Condottiere
29-08-2009, 15:28
If the Emperor foresaw the Horus Heresy, it's an argument for predestination.

Imperius
29-08-2009, 17:48
This is sort of like the 'Communist' argument isn't it?
Everyone seems to hate it but they don't realize that it WORKS.


- I believe in God, so no calling me a fascist sadist.

Cool_Mint
29-08-2009, 18:43
The more Horus Heresy novels I read, the more dubious the emperor's motives seem to become.

1)His dictatorial subjugation of local populace - Every world he conquers he immediately puts under the imperium's heel and forces them to produce supplies for his crusade....some people will say this is necessary in a harsh galaxy, which leads me to the second point.

2)His desperation to conquer to known universe - What were the threats then? When the imperium was hyper efficient and all conquering? Eldar, which is still irrelevant till this day. Orks, which is a bad excuse, as there were no arch-arsonists or tharkas around then. The warp? Why not just kill all psykers, or use black ships as they're doing in the present day?

What threats are around now? When the imperium is decaying, superstitious and slow beyond all measure? Tyranids (Far bigger threat than anything else, they even block out everything in the warp due to their shadow), Necrons, which almost ended everything in the war against the old ones, Chaos marines, thanks to the emperor. In fact, the only enemy actually relevant now from the great crusades are orks.

If the decaying imperium can defend themselves against far greater threats compared to the emperor's time, what was his hardcore policies for?

3)His secrecy. He seemed busy enough not to care about what happened in the great crusade, till Horus rebelled against him and destroyed everything. Also, what's up with the golden throne not allowing daemons into terra? So what if terra was destroyed? Tons of worlds were destroyed by him in the first place for being a locus for the warp.

4)What's up with the xenophobia? It seems that several races has joined up in a council to fight against chaos, as told in the Alpha legion book. Also, the watchers in the dark were part of some council too. Why not join them? He surely knew about them, since he would have great informational sources?

5)His restrictions on psykers - While untrained psykers are a locus for the warp to find its way to the known world, trained psykers like librarians and imperial sanctioned psykers seem to do well enough. Besides, he's a psyker himself?

To me he just sounds like a megalomaniac dictator who wants the whole universe to revolve around him...Well, he sure had a pyrrhic victory in that sense, everyone uses the astronomican, but the only problem is that he has benn a millimeter away from death for the last 10 thousand years....


I totally agree; when 40K Rogue Trader was launched it was supposed to be dark and violent but tongue in cheek like the old Judge Dredd/2000AD comics - a sort of parody on Dune.

What I find a little disconcerting is that while the story and game have become much more sophisticated over the years the Emperor and the Imperial forces have become increasingly "heroic" despite being obviously not. The Emperor is basically a sci-fi Hitler in space but kids don't see him that way and even idol-worship him and his nazi cyber-rambos - that's what I particulary find disconcerting; they idol worship a bunch of robo-nazis because they look cool! :chrome:

I sometimes feel irritated at the apologist 40K fans who can't see the Imperium as anything but a "necessary evil" and insist on writing lengthy explanations as to why a billion people had to be "purified" for using Eldar lightbulbs.


If I was asked to reinvent Warhammer 40K as Warhammer "50K" (maybe the year 49,999AD) I would make the story much less clear-cut with major characters in the story having unknown motives and agendas; a kind of "X-Files" approach where the truth is guessed at but not positively revealed.

I rather like the idea of there being both good and bad guy factions within the same Imperium and also in rebel/renegade forces and no 100% evil enemies - there's even a snippet in the 1980's Rogue Trader rulebook about Genestealers not being necessarily hostile.



The empire is a huge fascist organisation, racist in every way and most likely to obliterate planets if anyone thinks different. If it is a dictatorship ... well it's not democracy thats for sure.
If the emperor had any good intentions they where probably the same as julius ceasar, hitler, stalin and any other dictator trying to build an obidient empire.

The problem with that is that there are always victims; the vast majority of people in the Imperium would be slaves or starving third-world peasants; would anyone play 40K if the game was about starving fly-infested villages rather than super-soldiers? There's no reason for the human race to exist if the quality of life is unbearably low.

imperial90
29-08-2009, 20:05
Evolution and nature would highly disagree with you, survival is all important, the continuation of the species, trumps all other matters, including quality of life. That is the way of nature, the Imperium just takes this to the extremes. Ive said it time and time again, call me a 40k apologetic if you want. The Imperium only exists because its institutes such extreme and harsh measures. Does that make the Imperium good on any level? No not at all, but its not about morality, its about survival, and the Imperium, as with the Emperor before them, will do ANYTHING no matter how cruel, horrific, and monstrous to ensure mankind stays united and alive. Alien tech = alien influence= threatens imperial influence= threatens unity. Simple as that the Imperiums Xenophobia is far more about ensuring an us against them mentality more then anything else giving the Imperium, another reason to stay together, the Imperium will do anything to ensure unity, (except appeasment lol). Ive never thought of the Imperiums in the terms of good and evil, above all the Imperium represents Order. My apologizes if you think this explanation was too lengthy. But only someone who doesnt know much about 40k would think of it in the terms of good and evil.

Ertle
29-08-2009, 20:33
Evolution and nature would highly disagree with you, survival is all important, the continuation of the species, trumps all other matters, including quality of life. That is the way of nature, the Imperium just takes this to the extremes. Ive said it time and time again, call me a 40k apologetic if you want. The Imperium only exists because its institutes such extreme and harsh measures. Does that make the Imperium good on any level? No not at all, but its not about morality, its about survival, and the Imperium, as with the Emperor before them, will do ANYTHING no matter how cruel, horrific, and monstrous to ensure mankind stays united and alive. Alien tech = alien influence= threatens imperial influence= threatens unity. Simple as that the Imperiums Xenophobia is far more about ensuring an us against them mentality more then anything else giving the Imperium, another reason to stay together, the Imperium will do anything to ensure unity, (except appeasment lol). Ive never thought of the Imperiums in the terms of good and evil, above all the Imperium represents Order. My apologizes if you think this explanation was too lengthy. But only someone who doesnt know much about 40k would think of it in the terms of good and evil.

this guy hit the nail on the head.

Anarchist Angel
29-08-2009, 20:40
This is sort of like the 'Communist' argument isn't it?
Everyone seems to hate it but they don't realize that it WORKS.


- I believe in God, so no calling me a fascist sadist.

I totally agree that communism works. The only problem is that humans are incapable of wielding the ultimate power that comes with being the ruler of a communist state... Afterall:


Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

For communism to truely work you would have to remove all human decisions from it's leadership imo :) Even a senate is too easily swayed by the influence of a single person (or group of people) that could pull all the strings :)

Back onto the Emperor topic, I think he is a necissary evil in 40k. Without him the Imperium would have undoubtably perished. In the cruel times leading up to the 41st millenium mankind needed to be a united military state to fight the numerous threats from both within and oustide of the empire :)

Enigma6
30-08-2009, 11:59
I'm a firm believer that the emperor's main motive was the annihilation of chaos. This is the true threat to humanity as it is a threat from within. Because of chaos a completely human planet a million light years away from the nearest threatening alien can still fall because some guv'nor gets corrupted by chaos.

Let's look at some of the emperors tactics during the great crusade:

1) Not telling anyone about chaos.
to me it seems really foolish to enforce the belief that there is no chaos and no intelligence in the warp and no magic. Even the primarchs didn't know about it. How many of the primarchs would have avoided their corruption if they'd known chaos when they saw it. I can only guess that chaos is powered by belief, and if the whole galaxy believed it didn't exits then chaos would be at least severely weakened. this is hinted at in Legion when they say that a huge self destructive war that wiped out all the chaos worshippers would be nasty, but ultimately lead to the destruction of chaos.
in False Gods the chaos rep who speaks to horus even states that the emperors actions are destroying their realm, though of course this could always have been a nice lie to get his sympathy.

2) conquering the galaxy at a mighty pace.
I think this has to be something to do with point 1. how long can you honestly keep chaos a secret, even from the warriors out there fighting it on a daily basis? and it's bound to start cropping up on worlds you've already conquered, and then eventually you have to have the awkward conversation where you tell everyone "well actually there is chaos really" so the plan is to do everything so quick that the galaxy is conquered and chaos destroyed so quick that no-one ever has to learn about it's existence.

3) building a webway gate.
this seems to be to do with not having to enter the warp any more to get about. maybe the overall plan is to seal the warp off forever or maybe it's just that if no-one has the opportunity to be exposed to the warp after chaos has been destroyed then there will never be another chance for chaos to regain any power.

4) prejudice against psykers, aliens and mutants
psykers is a little obvious as they'r a conduit to chaos if not sanctioned and controlled, mutants and aliens is a bit harder. I think part of it is that humans were muchly under attack from aliens so getting rid was good for people and mutation if left to spread would eventually mean that people weren't people anymore but i also think there's prob a bit more to it.
it's very possible that (as well as getting rid of the aliens that know about/worship/use chaos) the overall plan requires as much of the galaxy as possible to be of the same race, so they all think the same and have similar effects on the warp.
this is pure speculation mind but i'm pretty sure an all human galaxy was some part of the plan. Plus the emperor seems to generally want humans to be the dominant species and prosper and stuff

Firaxin
31-08-2009, 03:08
3) building a webway gate.
A lot of people hear about the Imperial Webway and assume it's a step towards separating the Imperium from the warp. It's not; the Emperor knew that would be suicide for the humanity, since we are in the process of becoming a fully psychic race more powerful than the Eldar.

Ockham's Razor: The Emperor was simply attempting to establish a method of transportation and communication that would become virtually instantaneous and thus forestall the inevitable logistical problems of expanding outwards at an exponential rate.


4) prejudice against psykers, aliens and mutants
I don't remember that much of a prejudice against psykers or mutants at the time of the Heresy. They used abhumans in the Imperial Army.

Dexter099
03-09-2009, 04:26
I love how we reduce the Imperium to a single word: racists. It's such a narrow-minded way to look at the Imperium.

The Imperium doesn't like aliens, because the aliens are never going to have the interests of the Imperium foremost in their heart. Never. So it's really quite a rational approach to take towards the aliens of the 40k universe.

Example: Why should a Russian give a dam about the interests of Ethiopia unless Ethiopia has similar interests as Russia and is interested in working together with them?

Condottiere
03-09-2009, 06:17
Self-interest is a general motivator, it's just that certain words conjure pejorative connotations.

Wolfblade670
06-09-2009, 02:42
Sure, its easy to dismiss the Imperium as rascist towards the other aliens of the galaxy, but look at it this way: if a totally alien species was out to kill you, your family, and everything you cared for, would you feel anything but hate towards them?

Iracundus
06-09-2009, 02:48
It's a chicken and egg question though. The Imperium is known to be xenophobic and to exterminate aliens where possible. Is it any wonder then that aliens might be hostile or unfriendly then to such a regime?

Also the rationale of "they're alien/outsiders and so we cannot possibly understand or be at peace with them" has been already used throughout history against ethnic groups or races throughout history. Ancient groups would use such reasoning to say villages over the next hill would be too alien to co-exist with, yet you may find those same areas today in one nation and state. The very fact there are such things as ambassadors and diplomats to the Tau and the Eldar indicate some level of communication and understanding is possible...it's just that neither side has any inclination to take it to genuinely friendly relations

Wolfblade670
06-09-2009, 03:09
I agree, but one thing that doesn't always seemed to be hammered home in the fluff is that the races aren't just alien, but their thought processes are inherently alien. They don't think the same way humans do, making communication and coexistance that much harder.

FlashGordon
06-09-2009, 03:15
It's a chicken and egg question though. The Imperium is known to be xenophobic and to exterminate aliens where possible. Is it any wonder then that aliens might be hostile or unfriendly then to such a regime?

Also the rationale of "they're alien/outsiders and so we cannot possibly understand or be at peace with them" has been already used throughout history against ethnic groups or races throughout history. Ancient groups would use such reasoning to say villages over the next hill would be too alien to co-exist with, yet you may find those same areas today in one nation and state. The very fact there are such things as ambassadors and diplomats to the Tau and the Eldar indicate some level of communication and understanding is possible...it's just that neither side has any inclination to take it to genuinely friendly relations

It is known also that eldar are prepared to sacrifice millions of humans to save a handful of eldar (or spirit stones!). That orks kills humans "for fun". That Dark eldar takes humans for prisoners to torture them "for fun". That Tau want to make humans puppes for their state. That Necrons wants to harvest them. That Tyranids wants to eat them. What choice do the humans have?!
Humans have no reason to treat the aliens as equals since they treat humans as punching bags lunch or voodo dolls. It has been like this since humans left their miserable planet and first met the orks.

Warsurge
06-09-2009, 04:02
1. There is a good reason for these strict rules. If they try to get out and leave the Imperiums rule, they will be destined to rot when the enemies of the Imperium arrive. The Imperium need planets to survive and the planets need the Imperium to survive.

2. He is not trying to conquer the Universe. He is just trying to set up a perimeter for all of Humanity to be protected. If they just stayed on Earth (Just Earth) and the Tyranids came do you think they (Humans) would win? No. A vast amount of planets with a vast amount of resources and people would greatly improve their chances of existing.

No threats really back then. They encountered a few minor races that were not that really dangerous, but all the same couldn't risk them staying alive. Orks were around during the time of the Great Crusade. Horus and the Emperor were fighting side by side and Horus saved the Emperors life.

The Emperor had a perfectly reasonable explanation for not telling the people about Chaos. If he told them people would obviously be tempted to start cults of their chosen Chaos god. The less you know is better. I mean seriously would you worship a immortal human being or the gods that could grant you all your hearts desires? I know a huge majority of people would join Chaos because a. they get what they want (or so they think) b. they don't know enough about these gods to see that they are being used.

3. The Golden Throne was able to put a sort of barrier over Terra, blocking any demon from entering. Terra is the most precious planet of them all. The hearts of millions/billions/trillions would falter because their once treasured home planet (the strongest of them all) was destroyed. As if their planet being destroyed is not enough the Emperor would also go with it also.

4. It is natural that you would be cautious/suspicious of another race for fear of being back stabbed. I think they had the right to also. I wouldn't risk the chance of being back stabbed, would you? I don't know exactly how the Watchers in the Dark were allowed to live (Probably because they are caring for Lion El'Johnson).

5. He unlike others were able to resist the temptations of the warp and that is why he placed restrictions on what psykers could do.

All in all He has done the right thing. It may not seem like it, but it was right.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 04:49
Seems that not telling your people about Chaos must the equivalent to Sex education; unless he thought that the likelihood an average citizen has of encountering a situation that could potentially corrupt him is incredibly tiny.

Iracundus
06-09-2009, 16:16
It is known also that eldar are prepared to sacrifice millions of humans to save a handful of eldar (or spirit stones!). That orks kills humans "for fun". That Dark eldar takes humans for prisoners to torture them "for fun". That Tau want to make humans puppes for their state. That Necrons wants to harvest them. That Tyranids wants to eat them. What choice do the humans have?!
Humans have no reason to treat the aliens as equals since they treat humans as punching bags lunch or voodo dolls. It has been like this since humans left their miserable planet and first met the orks.

There are more races in the galaxy than just that. In 40K there have been races that have been exterminated or driven to the edge of extinction, just for being alien and not for any innate hostility to humanity. Humanity in 40K has a bad reputation and is known to be untrustworthy. Hence the chicken and egg situation. Some minor races may be hostile precisely because they know that if they try to welcome the Imperium with open arms, they'll just be shot.

FlashGordon
06-09-2009, 16:33
But it is hardly that the Imperium i racist against other species itself since the majority of species out there are hostile(Tau/orks/necrons/Hrud/etc) an untrustworthy(im looking at you tau/eldar/etc), humanity does not have a choice.

Dominate or be Dominated. I know what i would choose.

As far as i know there are alien species that the Imperium are leaving alone because they pose no threat or pose to great threat(logistically probably).

The Emperors dream was that humankind would be united and never again enslaved by alien empires.

Iracundus
07-09-2009, 13:38
As far as i know there are alien species that the Imperium are leaving alone because they pose no threat or pose to great threat(logistically probably).


Quote your evidence. Wherever possible the Imperium has never left an alien species alone. Temporarily ignoring one in favor of attacking or dealing with another is not tolerance either.

In 40K, humans and the Imperium are incredibly racist. The entire Imperial dogma revolves around the fact that ALL aliens, regardless of whether or not they've been encountered or regardless of their behavior, are ultimately to be exterminated by humanity. Stop trying to whitewash the Imperium into being the good guys, because in 40K there are none. The Imperium exhibits the same sense of manifest destiny that the Tau do and that previous past colonial powers have exhibited in the process of driving out or attempting to exterminate indigenous peoples.

gunners
08-09-2009, 09:23
Well to my knowledge "the Interex", that the crusade finds briefly before the heresy, is still a interstellar empire with both alien and mankind living in harmony.. Or atleast that the positive images it has been given in the horus heresy book... 2nd i think it is, or 3rd...
But given there are dreadful few positive stories involving humans and aliens in coexistience. The vast majority of stories tells us, that this is not how the 40k univers works.

But even so, The Emperor and the empire might seem evil but if anything else is evil or more evil, what are they... Does light exist in pitch blackness? If there is no good does evil exist?
And even then, this is a univers on which you cannot use your own moral and ethic. This is purely a question on surviving, not sit around discussing moral or ethic issue. It was on the time of the crusade, and it is even more so now.:evilgrin:

Finally... Don't think for a second to put Julius Caesar in the same bowl as Hitler or Stalin... That would make no sense. :wtf:

Bonzai
08-09-2009, 19:44
Also keep in mind the monumental task that the Crusade was trying to achieve. Humanity was spread out across the galaxy, isolated and vulnerable to any number of threats. Every day, another human planet could fall. The Emperor, as the self appointed guardian of humanity, could not afford to waste time. He had to reclaim the lost planets as quickly and efficiently as possible. Any delay could cost hundreds of planets and billions of lives. So he was quick, and ruthlessly efficient. Crushing resistance, and commandeering the planets resources as quickly as possible. It may sound cold and inhumane, but think about what damage several hundred systems turned to chaos could cause.

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 20:43
It might also have been a once in a lifetime opportunity. Didn't Slaanesh emerge from the Warp at this time and the Eye of Terror was created? The resulting explosion clearing navigation to allow for massive expansion?

Marsekay
08-09-2009, 20:47
What is the emperor doing?
Hes taking one hell of a dump thats what.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 21:01
There's no human raceism in the 40k universe.
Raceism is a term that can only be applyed when one person thinks of or treats a memeber or another race in a certion way.

xenophobia, is the world when applying to it self aware, non human species.

Culling the nonhuman races when you look at Orks, Dark Eldar, Enslavers, ect ect ect is only rational in order to protect mankind from there threats

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 21:15
Maybe the Emperor is a firm believer of survival of the fittest.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 21:19
Maybe the Emperor is a firm believer of survival of the fittest.

No just in the survival of the most humanist