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Gharof von Carstein
28-08-2009, 07:29
Vampire Lord
-magic level
-forbidden lore
-master of the black arts
-summon ghouls
-Walachs bloody hauberk
-enchanted shield
-book of arkhan
= 450p

Vampire
-dark acolyte
-summon ghouls
-flayed hauberk
= 170p

Wight King
-BSB
-Banner of drakenhof
=225p

Necromancer
-vanhels
-corpse cart
-black periapt
= 145p

Ghouls x 10 = 80p
Ghouls x 10 = 80p
Ghouls x 10 = 80p

Dire Wolves x 5 = 40p

Grave Guard x 13
-bannerwearer
-Royal standard of the strigoi
= 203p

black knights x5
-Champion
= 156p

Blood knights x5
-bannerwearer
-banner of blood keep
= 370p

total = 1999p

PD 10 DD 6

Deathstar with ghoul units serving more as flank chargers. one of the units will house my necro on his corpsecart and stay close to the graveguard to make sure ASF will help. My hammer is the blood and black knights. i wanted to make more wight units (hammer unit of graveguard and a second unit of black knights) but the problem is that ill just short on vampires than. it could work if i add a varghulf but i honestly dont see how i can assemble the points for all this. ASF is so important that the corpsecart is just needed so i cant scratch it. let me know what you think guys.

Gharof von Carstein
28-08-2009, 13:16
cant believe the list is that good that you guys dont have any comments?

siphon101
28-08-2009, 13:26
The problem with squeezing blood knights, the banner of the blood keep AND the drakkenhoff banner into 2k points is that inevitably you won't be able to afford anything else you want. It's...interesting, I am just concerned that your small units will get over run before you have the chance to bring them up to anything sizeable.

Gharof von Carstein
28-08-2009, 13:48
problem is swapping the knights out for a varghulf and another unit will leave me without a decent hammer unit. switching the focus from that and going for bigger core and perhaps a strike unit of GG with Great weapons leaves me pretty vulnerable to fast units. I dont have any other idea on how to do this unless i switch out the grave guard deathstar build up my core and weaken the blood knights to field more specials. would this be preferable? i could build up the ghoul core, field a ghoul bunker, make the graveguard 2 strike units with 2 strike units black knights and perhaps a varghulf or something. any thoughts?

Gokamok
28-08-2009, 19:01
First of all, your list is illegal, since your Lord can't have 2 pieces of magic armor.

I'm not a big fan of Deathstar lists, since I usually find them easy to counter. Your GG are still only M4, and you don't have all that much punch in the unit, it's more like 1100 points that will require an effort from your opponent to get at, making it more of a points denial unit.
You should put your BSB on a barded steed; anyone with half a brain will know that he is the guy to target, so getting a 2+ AS seems like a good idea. I also think you should mount the Lord just to get him a better save as well.

I'd recommend getting rid of the Corpse Cart. You're basically paying 75 points for a bound spell, and since your GG unit is so resilient, it doesn't really need ASF. Alternately, you could put Balefire or Lodestone on the Cart so it has more of a purpose.

You mention the Black Knights as being one of your hammers, which I believe you should reconsider. They're not strong enough to break anything with moderate static CR, so they're more of a support unit for your GG and Ghouls.

I'm not too sold on the Blood Knights either; being your only hammer, the enemy is sure to target them with something heavy, and while the magic banner will help a lot against shooting, your army basically loses all of it's punch if they're destroyed. Most large flyers will very likely destroy them on the charge, and your army is very disabled without them.

The Ghoul units are a bit too small for my liking as well. You'll likely be spending all your PD on getting them up to size, meaning that you're unable to provide a real offensive threat with your magic.

Nathangonmad
28-08-2009, 22:06
If I were you I'd spend more points on protecting the blood knights, direwolves...etc...etc and drop the grave guard, the bsb wightlord can still be effective in ghoul units.

drews3f
29-08-2009, 03:15
wow dude r u a retard? your vampire is illeagle you cant have 2 magical armor items dude read the rule book before you make and more lists!:rolleyes:

Gharof von Carstein
29-08-2009, 11:07
im not a retard but thx for being offensive with 7 posts i think that attitude will really keep you here long. thx for offering constructive criticism gokamok and nathan. iv been trying so many lists lately that i dont know what works anymore and what doesnt. its just like i cant find a list that suits my play to a tee.

thebaz
29-08-2009, 12:53
If I were you I would Drop the Blood Knights, Your Units will be utterly destroyed by combat rez because you dont have any command in them, you need full command in everything bud. thats why skellies are pimp. Grave Guard Hit like a train. you dont need to give them GW. They have sheilds give them a great save, and they have killing blow, pop on Banner of the barrows and put in a combat vampire and you can cleave through units. Your Necromancer is pretty useless you would be better to drop 2 GG and tack on a Unholy Lodestone or Balefire at least. Vampires are much more worth their points, or if you are looking for combat then take a Wight King with Sword of Kings Killing Blow on 5+ for 100 pts Best Character in the game for pts value

Gokamok
29-08-2009, 23:57
I've been trying so many lists lately that i don't know what works anymore and what doesn't. It's just like i can't find a list that suits my play to a tee.

In my opinion, the basic problem with this list is that you're trying too many things at once. You have a caster Lord that you're going to put in combat, a GG Deathstar with a Corpse Cart to give it ASF, MSU Ghouls that need raising and a very excpensive Blood Knight hammer as well.
I've always found that the easiest way for me to write lists is to decide beforehand what I want to focus on, and then build a list exclusively around that.
For example, my thoughts on the last army I posted on Warseer was as follows:

1) I want a caster Lord with Skull Staff and HoC, 2 combat Vampires and a Necromancer.

2) I'll be running a strong infantry centre.

With those simple ideas defined, the rest of the army came more or less by itself; A bunker, 2 units of Skeletons, a unit of Zombies to add more bodies and a few support units to add mobility and hitting power.
Now, I'm not saying that I necessarily wrote a good list, but at least it was coherent. Every character and unit had a clearly defined role in the list, which I think is one of the most important factors when building an army.

If we take another look at your list, then most of the army is coherent; You're running an infantry line centred around the GG with 3 characters in it, a unit of Ghouls on each side and a Ghoul bunker behind it. This seems like a nice idea. Now, you've put protective items on both Vampires, which makes sense, but since the unit isn't all that hitty, maybe you should add in something like Sword of Might on the Lord and Sword of Battle on the other Vampire? That's 30 points that'll go directly towards making your Deathstar able to smash things rather than just tie them up.

I think the Black Knights look fine in this list, since they're very good as flankers for VC infantry, but paying 16 points for the Champion seems a little expensive as compared to 28 points for another model, or maybe just keep them without the champ since you really just want to use them as rankbreakers?

The thing that really stands out for me as being out of place in this list is the Blood Knights. They're a strong and expensive hammer unit, that seems designed to work independtly of the rest of the army, but I think the 370 points could be spend in a more constructive way. Your Ghouls probably need to be a bit larger than they are, your Corpse Cart would do much more with a Lodestone/Balefire, and your Necromancer really could use a Power Stone for that turn where you *need* Vanhel's to go off.
You could also consider getting some Fell Bat for war machine hunting, or maybe 3 Wraiths or a Varghulf to help protect the flanks of your infantry?

My point of this long rant is that I think you need to keep the basic idea of the army in mind, and pick units that help you make the basic idea work better. When the basic idea is "1100 points of models in a regenerating unit of M4 infantry", then you'd damn better make sure that your remaining 900 points are spent towards making that infantry unit work well:D

Anyways, I hope I've been able to add a bit, and hopefully help you towards having an easier time coming up with a list that you really feel comfortable writing and playing, let's hear how it goes!

Gharof von Carstein
30-08-2009, 08:30
i always like being able to brainstorm with people on good lists. so i definetly appreciate (as always) where you are going with this. Thing is. Im a tourney player. I play tourneys almost exclusively when i play. Casual i just win. tourney... i always end up coming just short of the prizes. now if been examining the field of opponents for the upcoming tourney im gonna play on the 4th of october. and weird enough. its full of O&G, TK, HE, DE with just a few WE and daemons. And that will be the field... this is totally different from the large field of VC, DoC (where you kinda need the knights) DE(hence everything T4 or higher) and Lizzies that im used to. My iniatial thought was, man this will be excellent field to go for a big unit of wraiths, and my second thought was im gonna see a shiteload of monsters on rider coming over. For this field going full caster seems like a good idea. DE in my area ussually brings no casters at all, rather focussing on full shooting. Sure they have that miscast pendant close which could really hurt my game but at least ill know most spells will go off. HE is a magic vs magic battle. you need missiles to blow them and their pathetic T3 to kingdome come. TK only way you can hurt them is heaving a lot of dispel dice. O&G = wraiths are basic autowin.

So i started to think up of a list last night. i want to have a 5 strong wraith unit, why 5? should i get a matchup against a random DoC list, i can at least use them as a rankbreaker for one combat before they die horribly. i want another vampire with forbidden lore, either to go beasts to stop dragons in their tracks, or to become a fighting machine or of course go lore of fire in case of WE in which he and my lord burn through whole units with no effort.

I kinda need my necro for Vanhels insurance. so that leaves one spot unfilled. either i take a vampire and float the boat on the deathstar idea. or i rol with it with a Wight king as a vampire will be too expensive. Perhaps its a thought to have a GG units with hand weapon shield for a nice save and a BSB vamp with blood keep banner (like to see those shooty armies hit than). it could make a BSB vamp affordable. Lord possibly on a hellsteed with the wristbands as i dont see him wanting to get into combat.

these are the thoughts but i havent put it concretly into a list yet. im afraid however that getting wraiths leaves me pretty hammerless again. i could field the black knights as a hammer but i think id prefer running a varghulf with the wraiths to keep them marching and to give the varghulf a anti shooting screen. this all becomes pretty expensive again tho... havent worked out the kinks just yet.

tell me what you think guys (gokamok)

Stronginthearm
30-08-2009, 18:05
Definitely agree with Gokamok that you are going in all sorts of directions with IMO smaller then nessesary units, I like the caster lord theme but would not give him the book but instead give him the helm, pop him in a bunker unit of ghouls behind the fighting and laugh as your zombies hit dwarves or HE on a 3+, it also allows you to skimp a bit more on armor for him freeing up more points, Second I dont think the wight king will do enough there to justify his obscene point expenditure, if your want a character to run around with the blood knights go with a vampire they are imensely more diversifiable and have some magic to allow you to heal the blood knights up if they get caught far from aid.
I like the black knights on paper but the numbers (spesifically the lack there of) you have there limit what they can go after and have a good chance of killing before CR beats them to small pieces, Id drop them and get more ghouls and either more Dire wolves or find a way to scrape together a small unit of cairn wraiths which, even if they do nothing else will makle your enemy dance around trying to avoid them due to their great reputation. Last thing, I think the grave gaurd unit is just way to tiny, you cant make it larger so think about thrying to get it up to a block of 20 counting whatever characters you have there so you can take large amounts of casualties and still be their for your next magic phase to bring them all back up, and as a bonus you get to see the look on yur opponents face when you tell him that all those casualties he worked so hard to cause mean absolutely ****

Hope this helps, and if it backfires its NOT MY FAULT

Gharof von Carstein
30-08-2009, 19:38
after consideration, here is the reworked list.

Vampire Lord
-magic level
-forbidden lore
-master of the black arts
-summon ghouls
-Flayed hauberk
-Helm of commandment
-Book of arkhan
= 445p

Vampire
-forbidden lore
-Summon creatures of the night
-Nightshroud
= 170p

Vampire
-Dread knight
-Blood drinker
= 165p

Necromancer
-vanhels
-extra spell IoN
-black periapt
= 85p

Ghouls x 14 = 112p
Ghouls x 14 = 112p
Ghouls x 10 + ghast = 88p

Fell bats x 3 = 60p

Grave Guard x 17
-bannerwearer
-Musician
-royal standard of the strigoi
= 257p

Black knights x 5
-champion
-barding
= 156p

Wraiths x 3
-banshee
= 175p

Varghulf
= 175p

total = 2000p

10PD - 7 DD

Ladies and gets i think we have a winner! Caster heavy with a grave guard unit that will gladly pound your face in! wraiths and varghulf run together. a vampire that raises up my fell bats and another to further beef out my ghouls. the 14 size was necessary point wise to fit in the book of arkhan. the forbidden lore on the vamp gives me guaranteed vanhels or nice alternative magic like beasts for bears anger or fire against wood elves. my lord can also fill in the gaps with magic nicely. its coherent and it works. what dishes out the damage better than wraiths a varghulf and a lot of infantry. let me know what you guys think!

Maoriboy007
30-08-2009, 22:59
I know your'e scratching for pionts, but for such a small unit of wraiths, you'd almost want a banshee in there to have a nice shooty attack for the course.

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 04:53
actually i kinda dont... banshee shooting isnt that great if i roll crappy for it or if the unit i target uses their generals leadership. than the ability is close to worthless. the wraiths in themselves have 3 str5 attacks. a banshee has 1 str 3 attack. thats not worth wasting 25 points on when her ability could be only mildly interesting.

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 10:25
oke.. so i was looking at my list and noticed i miscalculated after having adjusted it last night. so i adjusted it again to fit in a banshee. now i have a question id like to put forth.

should i...
Keep the list as is or dump the black knights, add 3 more wraiths and switch the grave guard musician into a champion for more frontal bashability?

i think its personally a tough call but one that could pay off very nicely.

The Red Scourge
31-08-2009, 10:35
... and switch the grave guard musician into a champion for more frontal bashability?

You don't get a champ for bashing heads. You get one to step up to the challenge and protect your characters. So you always get one for your VC units :)

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 10:46
so your a fan for option 2 im guessing? :P

The Red Scourge
31-08-2009, 11:06
Not in particular.

I'm not a great fan of Hatred and being forced to pursue. A simple warbanner works wonder however. While a Banner of the Dead Legion would do nicely with your black knights.

Also what are you going to do with your characters. Placing your dread knight in the black knights would cause them to lose their greatest advantage - ignoring terrain.

And banshee shooting is great vs. undead ;)

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 11:13
actually the dread knight goes in with the grave guard. together with the forbidden lore vamp. the necro and lord hide in the bunker. the black knights are there for their ability to ignore terrain so..

Gokamok
31-08-2009, 13:00
I really like the new list, but I think there are a few minor tweaks that could be made.

I'd definitely recommend getting Champions for your infantry in order to challenge enemy characters. Only losing the Champion instead of 3-4 models really helps your units survive, thereby freeing up your PD for other things than IoN in the long run.
On the other hand, I think you could ditch the Champion from your Black Knights; the extra attack is nice, but the points would be better spent on 2 Ghasts.

I would drop the Banshee in order to make your Dread Knight Vampire a BSB. Even though I like having a Banshee in small Wraiths units, I tihnk the extra point of CR combined with less crumbling would be a better investment.

I'd also very much like to see a Talisman of the Lycni on your Nightshroud Vampire, maybe combined with a Sword of Battle/Might. Even though you'll likely often attempt Flaming Sword of Rhuin or Bear's Anger on him, those will often be dispel priorities for your opponent, so being slightly more hitty never hurts.
I just generally like the idea of having that 18" charge character in the army, since it adds a lot of options for just 10 points. Perhaps remove Flayed Hauberk from the Lord to finance this, since he's meant to be in the bunker all day anyway.

I'm not too sold on Blood Drinker in a unit of GG. Raising them back with IoN isn't much of an issue, so I think 40 points is a tad too steep. What about Cursed Book and Sword of Battle/Might/Balefire Spike/Normal Lance on him instead?

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 13:30
good points but i dont like cursed book as its a one shot deal. the armour on my lord is not going anywhere. i dont want rank and file pounding my lord should things go sour. lets see what we can tweak.

Vampire Lord
-magic level
-forbidden lore
-master of the black arts
-summon ghouls
-Flayed hauberk
-Helm of commandment
-Book of arkhan
= 445p

Vampire
-forbidden lore
-Summon creatures of the night
-Nightshroud
-talisman of the lycni
= 180p

Vampire
-Dread knight
-supernatural horror
-balefire spike
= 160p

Necromancer
-vanhels
-extra spell IoN
-black periapt
= 85p

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 10
-Ghast
= 88p

Fell bats x 3 = 60p

Grave Guard x 17
-bannerwearer
-royal standard of the strigoi
= 251p

Black knights x 5
-barding
= 140p

Wraiths x 3
-banshee
= 175p

Varghulf
= 175p

total = 1999p

10PD - 7 DD

I feel like this weakens the list. sure now i have a vampire with a 18" charge but i have to spent PD to possibly raise the grave guard casualties. personally i like the previous list better. however gokamok if you could fill in the changes like you see em maybe i can see it differently. but seriously leaving my lord unprotected is a definite no.

Gokamok
31-08-2009, 14:45
good points but i dont like cursed book as its a one shot deal. the armour on my lord is not going anywhere. i dont want rank and file pounding my lord should things go sour. lets see what we can tweak.

Vampire Lord
-magic level
-forbidden lore
-master of the black arts
-summon ghouls
-Flayed hauberk
-Helm of commandment
-Book of arkhan
= 445p

I understand that you want to keep the armor on the Lord, better safe than sorry.

Vampire
-forbidden lore
-Summon creatures of the night
-Nightshroud
-talisman of the lycni
= 180p

A new idea: Maybe give this guy a Power Stone for a surprise Bear's Anger when your opponent thinks you're out of PD? Some people won't see it coming, and it could potentially be devastaing.

Vampire
-Dread knight
-supernatural horror
-balefire spike
= 160p

You already have 2 terrorcausers in the list, so I think Walking Death or BSB would be a better upgrade. As for the loss of Blood Drinker, my point is that a Vampire with 3 attacks will likely only bring you back 1 GG each turn, and I don't think that'll be gamebreaking. In my opinion, Blood Drinker should either go in a unit Knights, on a Zombie Dragon, or be left at home.

Necromancer
-vanhels
-extra spell IoN
-black periapt
= 85p

Thinking about it, does he need the extra spell? I personally like having a bit of versatility on my Necromancers, but you could just go with Vanhel's, and then using the perisapt to make sure his dice doesn't go to waste on turn 1 and 2 where you might not want to cast with him.

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 10
-Ghast
= 88p

Fell bats x 3 = 60p

Grave Guard x 17
-bannerwearer
-royal standard of the strigoi
= 251p

I really think you should try to fit Musician and Champion in as well. There are a lot of characters out there that you won't want your Vampires fighting, and the musician is always nice.

Black knights x 5
-barding
= 140p

Wraiths x 3
-banshee
= 175p

I'm probably undecided on the Banshee. As you've said, it really weakens the combat potential of the unit, and the scream is only good against some armies, but devastating against some units.

Varghulf
= 175p

total = 1999p

10PD - 7 DD

I feel like this weakens the list. sure now i have a vampire with a 18" charge but i have to spent PD to possibly raise the grave guard casualties. personally i like the previous list better. however gokamok if you could fill in the changes like you see em maybe i can see it differently. but seriously leaving my lord unprotected is a definite no.

Basically, I think the list is very solid as it is now. Only thing I'd definitely change is removing Supernatural Horror in favor of a Battle Standard.

You could consider removing the Banshee and either 2 Ghouls or IoN from your Necromancer in order to finance a Power Stone on the Lycni Vampire and Musician+Champion on the GG, but I'm not really sure if it makes the list any stronger.

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 15:23
again good points. lets see what we can do.

Vampire Lord
-magic level
-forbidden lore
-master of the black arts
-summon ghouls
-Flayed hauberk
-Helm of commandment
-Book of arkhan
= 445p

Vampire
-forbidden lore
-Nightshroud
-talisman of the lycni
-Power stone
= 185p

Vampire
-BSB
-summon creatures of the night
-Dread knight
-balefire spike
= 175p

Necromancer
-vanhels
-black periapt
= 70p

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 14
-Ghast
= 120p

Ghouls x 10
-Ghast
= 88p

Fell bats x 3 = 60p

Grave Guard x 17
-bannerwearer
-champion
-musician
-royal standard of the strigoi
= 269p

Black knights x 5
-barding
= 140p

Wraiths x 3
= 150p

Varghulf
= 175p

total = 1997p

10PD - 7 DD

hmm now that i see how this list is i think it can be pretty good. switched around the summon creatures ability as to not max out on the caster vamp making him do too much at once. now the dread knight hitter can divide his one pd usage between buffing the fell bats or healing grave guard wounds. the guard is now full command and the tricksy vampire with forbidden lore now has a extra PD to burn some dice. this could also be used for a emergency vanhels should i take lore of the vampires with him.

Gokamok
31-08-2009, 21:01
Looking great, I'd like to hear how it works on the battlefield. I can't think of anything I'd change the way it looks now.

Ps.
Remember to edit that your Wraiths no longer have a Banshee;)

Gharof von Carstein
31-08-2009, 21:35
ill definetly let you know how this works out. thx for the help i really appreciated it! good luck to you and your list in the GT heat! go get em man!

Dark14
01-09-2009, 00:01
still seems a little underpowered. 1 unit dies and the rests done, try getting atleast 2 units of 20 models you need the staying power and then the varg and black knights will be ok flankers.

Gharof von Carstein
01-09-2009, 04:53
with raising this shouldnt be a issue.

Gharof von Carstein
01-09-2009, 07:18
iv beem seriously doubting the usefullness of the unit of black knights. basically dropping the knights completly would net me 2 more wraiths and a unit of 5 dire wolves which could be used for the same roll. on the other hand dropping the unit of black knights could also net me another wraith, a corpse cart and 2 more ghouls. I wonder what your thoughts on this are guys.

Gokamok
01-09-2009, 07:45
iv beem seriously doubting the usefullness of the unit of black knights. basically dropping the knights completly would net me 2 more wraiths and a unit of 5 dire wolves which could be used for the same roll. on the other hand dropping the unit of black knights could also net me another wraith, a corpse cart and 2 more ghouls. I wonder what your thoughts on this are guys.

I don't agree that adding 2 Wraiths and 5 Dire Wolves will be able to fulfill the same role as the Black Knights. The Black Knights can easily remove an enemy's rank bonus, while the Dire Wolves are very likely to sustain 3 casualties during a single close combat round.
Whether or not you want to keep the unit should probably be based on what you want from them. I personally find Black Knights to be great for handling a number of small units, such as Empire vanilla knights, MSU Ogres, fast cavalry and missile troops, while I also think they're the best rankbreakers in the VC army. If you don't think you need another threat to such units, then go without them.

As for adding a Corpse Cart, I'd recommend going for a Lodestone Cart if you keep your infantry close; the extra raising should help a lot in getting your Ghouls up to size, which will leave you with more PD to spend on offensive magic.

IF you want to change the list, then I'd recommend a Lodestone Cart and another Wraith in place of the Black Knights and a single Ghoul. I personally think that the Black Knights add more to the list, since it gives your opponent an extra unit to worry about. Also, if you spend the points on making the Wraiths bigger, then I think you're at risk of losing too much punch against armies that can manage to bring the Wraiths down. I've always found that multiple smaller threats work better than a few big threats in the VC army, but I guess that depends heavily on your gaming environment.

Gharof von Carstein
01-09-2009, 07:48
ill just leave the list as is. im really curious how it will work. :)

Gokamok
01-09-2009, 08:34
ill just leave the list as is. im really curious how it will work. :)

Sounds like a good idea to me, no need to make changes to a good list before playtesting;)