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eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 06:48
My friend and I normally play friendly games, but we've decided to play a game against each other with extremely competative armies.

He'll be playing either Lizzies or WoC, and I'll be playing WoC.

So, I was just wondering, what are the best units for their cost and what are some really cheesy lists?

Just for clarification, I don't want to do a -Insert the WoC equivalent of a Shadestar-. That army looks more bland than a cardboard sandwich.

Also, is Archaon worth it?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: This was originally a thread for DE, so only posts after post number 44 on page 3 are relevent to WoC.

phoenixlaw
29-08-2009, 06:57
Take 2 Hydras

Dreadlord on Dragon with sea dragon cloak, shield, pendant, ring of hotek.

Black Guard w/strikes 1st banner.

3 or 4 units of Harpies

Dark Riders and Xbow men to taste

Draconian77
29-08-2009, 07:02
I find that everything in the list except for the Death Hags(+The Cauldren), Corsairs, Executioners and Witch Elves to be good value for points.

Most tournament DE players prefer magic light as oppossed to magic heavy.
(So the Ring of Hotek somewhere in the centre of your lines, a Scroll Caddy and maybe a Null Talisman here or there.)

Some people would claim that 2 Hydras are the optimum rare choice but I disagree, Bolt Throwers are too useful to leave home without in an all comers list. Admittedly, against Lizards you could go the two Hydra route.

You will have to decide on a Dragon or not, it is a very powerful model and the Lizardmen do lack the sort of shooting required to threaten it.

Your list will probably end up looking something like this;

Dragon Lord
Scroll Caddy
BsB - Probably with the Pendant+Null Talisman and a GW inside a unit of BG.
*Assassin or another Master(Maybe Peg Mounted)

1+ Spearmen (Normally without Banners to make them truly sacrificial, although Banner+War Banner is an alternative and competitive set up.)
1+ 10 Rxbmen with Shields
1+ 5 Dark Riders
1+ 5 Harpies

Black Guard with Banner of Hag Graef, Champion with the Ring of Hotek (although I perfer putting it on a Master myself.)
1+ 5 Shades with Great Weapons
1+ 6 Cold One Knights

1 Hydra
2 Reapers

or 2 Hydras

This is just what I'm use to seeing myself.

Malekith isn't worth his price tag by some margin! :D

Hope this helps.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 07:09
Hmm... 2 somewhat similar lists... Yeah, I'll probably do something like that.

Also, phoenixlaw, is it wise putting the Ring on the guy on the dragon?

Actually, having it on the dragon and getting close to the army would be more effective anyway.

Wait, but what if he takes a Slann with that thing that gives a miscast to one of your casters?

Thanks for the quick replies.

Draconian77
29-08-2009, 07:15
Well, he would only have a single target, your Scroll caddy.

The caddy suffering a miscast isn't a big deal at all, the miscast table itself isn't really that dangerous. (You will probably take a wound...big freaking deal...)

As long as the Caddy has used it's scrolls early on in the battle, don't concern yourself over the chance of him making you miscast.

Although, IIRC he does need LoS for that trick to work...so you could just stick the Caddy behind a hill or something.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 07:21
Unlike our 40k games, we don't use any terrain when we play Fantasy, since we don't have any suitable terrain.

Draconian77
29-08-2009, 07:26
My first suggestion would be to fix that!

It doesn't have to be fancy, anything will do for starters if you don't have terrain available. Stacked books can make good hills, flat pieces of cardboard can represent forests and a pebbles placed like the outline of a square could count as a building.

Playing the game with terrain is a must in my opinion and just in case, remember to use a 6x4 board. :D

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 07:28
*Winces* One problem... I don't have anything even close to 6x4 to game on...

Draconian77
29-08-2009, 07:36
As a last resort; a floor maybe?

The game is about maneuvering, if you play on a small board with little terrain it changes the dynamics of the game.

In saying that, it isn't that big of a deal at all. If it's just a game between friends and you are both happy with it, go nuts! Lot's of my early games where on 4x4 boards. (Although normally only about a 1000pts per side)

In fact, thats a suggestion; If you dont have access to a large playing area, maybe just don't use the standard 2000-2250pts match up.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 07:40
Well my table's about 4' and a bit by 4' and a bit, so it's all good.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 12:59
Hmm... What Magic Items are worth investing in, besides the obvious Ring of Hotek and Pendant of Khaeleth?

Tzeentch Loyalist
29-08-2009, 14:16
I personally like the Hydra Sword, potion of strength combo. With that combo on a highborn with a dragon i took down a bloodthirster and then pursuded into a fresh combat and took out a unit of bloodletters. After that my opponent quit the game. I was saddened by his lack of confidence.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 14:21
That sounds like a nasty combo.

What about the Black Dragon Egg? Is that good?

Amlesh
29-08-2009, 15:07
I don't play DE, but IMO, the Black Dragon Egg doesn't look that good. It's what, 30 points for one breath attack? Just take a Dragon and use the breath every turn.

Kerill
29-08-2009, 15:14
On such a small table the BG deathstar is very viable since your opponent can't really hope to avoid it. Ditto with double hydras. Maybe pop in a cauldron and some knights as well and you can probably table your opponent by turn 3/4

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 15:46
Might go slightly magic heavy, with BG and Hydras to taste. It's going to be 3000 points by the way.

Oh, and the Egg gives you T6 and the breath attack for a turn.

willowdark
29-08-2009, 15:52
You're playing 3000 pts on a 4'x4' table? Don't you have a LGS you can take the battle to?

Even with no terrain that seems like an unnecessarily congested game.

eyescrossed
29-08-2009, 16:01
Now that I think about it, it's about 4 and a half.

But no, where I live (Victoria, Australia) the closest place I could game is a half an hour's drive away, we're only 14 and we will be heavily proxying.

Plus, space isn't really an issue when you consider that there will be Dragons and such on both sides, making for a low model count.

SilverWarlock
29-08-2009, 18:22
made a nice table when I was 15 (long gone by now due to multiple moves) but it was really easy and cheap, small time investment (and obviously not too hard given I was just 15 at the time).

Piece of wood cut to size (basic plywood board or the chip board crap, both cheap), wood glue, a little sand from the beach and a roll of cheap slick brown wallpaper (you can get autostick stuff usually with some different browns and lines or something, makes a nice basecoat and its again really cheap and easy). Then its a simple thing of gluing sand and/or painting (with patches of grass if you want).

You can put it on a table to play, up against a wall (in the garage or closet or whatever) when it isnt used.

Anyways, an hour to make, easy to store and well worth the trouble.

As for scenery it is amazing what can be done with the compact styrofoam (again cheap material) and a hot knife (old knife and use the stove, remember to cut outdoors or at least in front of a window, burning styrofoam stinks). You can make stones, crystals, hills etc, again, wood glue and beach sand (and cheap brown paint for an undercoat), trees can be a little harder but there are many ways to make them nice (short green wool strands attached using twisted thick metal wire makes nice pine trees).

If you are going to spend hours on the armies might as well spend an afternoon making a nice table (and note that hills are great for fantasy and 40K).

edit: just read you were only 14, skip the hot knife part if you don't have some form of help, blow torch burns hurt. The rest is still very cheap and at 14 you probably have more time than money :p. The styrofoam can be cut with just a knife (cutter blades do nicely), you may need help for a trip to the hardware store for the 4x6 board and styrofoam but other than that it makes a fun building project.

willowdark
29-08-2009, 20:01
Well, at 14, you could be experimenting with worse. ;)

Against Lizards or WoC, I'd be inclined to take multiple RBTs rather than multiple Hydras. don't get me wrong, Hydras are nasty, but at st4 with no to-hit penalties and -2 to AS, concentrated RBT fire can be surprisingly effective against Chaos Knights. Two of mine will typically cut a 5 man unit in half in one round of shooting, even against MoN. That will stop those Knights from breaking infantry to the front. Not to mention the single shot threat they pose from the flank.

And if you get turn 1 against multiple Engines of the Gods, and can get a few shots off before they raise their ward save, you have a good chance of knocking a few wounds off those Stegs. Stubborn with cold blooded means they don't tend to break from combat, so you'll appreciate going into combat a few wounds ahead.

And should a single bolt randomise to the Skink Priest, goodbye EotG.

eyescrossed
30-08-2009, 02:08
SilverWarlock, that sounds like a good idea, but don't patronize me. Just because I'm 14, doesn't mean I don't know how to handle a hot knife, nor does it mean I have a lot of time on my hands :p

But seriously, I'm going to New Zealand to a boarding school at the end of the term, I have a lot of homework to do, due to being sick for weeks, and I'm practically broke since I smashed a huge hole in the wall with my fist, so I need to work that off, too.

Sorry about being cranky, but I've had to have two penecillin (sp?) shots, in my **** no less, and I need another tomorrow as well.

But willowdark, on average, 2 RBTs firing volleys at a unit of Chaos Knights will kill 1, presuming they're within half range and don't have MoN.

Draconian77
30-08-2009, 02:28
But willowdark, on average, 2 RBTs firing volleys at a unit of Chaos Knights will kill 1, presuming they're within half range and don't have MoN.

Which is about the same amount that a charging Hydra would kill before breaking due to outnumbering and banners. ;)

Hydras are good, very good in fact.

But(There is always a but!): They are simply not as flexible as Bolt Throwers, as soon as you play in any competitive event with twin Hydras and find yourself facing off against large terror causers(normally flyng large-target terror causers) you bemoan the Reapers absence. If you plan to take a Dragon too, the "Terror" effect from the second Hydra is greatly diminished, not to that mention some match ups are just bad for Hydras.

1 Hydra and 2 Reapers will never let you down in my experience.
(Well....not "never" but you get the point...) :angel:

eyescrossed
30-08-2009, 02:38
Well it's 3000 pts, so I could take a Hydra and 4 RBTs.

willowdark
30-08-2009, 03:03
Exactly. That's fire power. :)

sulla
30-08-2009, 03:07
Oh, and the Egg gives you T6 and the breath attack for a turn.Pretty hard to get them both in the same turn. It's really an 'either/or' item...



But willowdark, on average, 2 RBTs firing volleys at a unit of Chaos Knights will kill 1, presuming they're within half range and don't have MoN.

IME, it's pretty safe to assume the chaos knights will have the MoN...

eyescrossed
30-08-2009, 03:09
Exactly. That's fire power. :)

Yeah... *Looks off into the distance*




IME, it's pretty safe to assume the chaos knights will have the MoN...

Yeah.

eyescrossed
30-08-2009, 05:38
I was thinking of taking a Supreme Sorceress and a normal Sorceress, but I was put off because of her low survivability. Then I thought, "Why not give her that 1+ save armour?..." but basically, how could I take a Supreme Sorceress and use her effectively? I was thinking of giving her the Black Staff, too.

Mullitron
30-08-2009, 07:49
I was thinking of taking a Supreme Sorceress and a normal Sorceress, but I was put off because of her low survivability. Then I thought, "Why not give her that 1+ save armour?..." but basically, how could I take a Supreme Sorceress and use her effectively? I was thinking of giving her the Black Staff, too.

If suggest giving her the focus familiar and pegasus, its a popular set up i believe. It allows her to fly around the field to get into a good position, but get behind cover and away from harm. Then uses the familiar for line of sight. May also want to give her the pendent

eyescrossed
30-08-2009, 08:31
Hmm... Anything else to do that doesn't involve the Focus Familiar or Pendant?

SilverWarlock
30-08-2009, 15:07
SilverWarlock, that sounds like a good idea, but don't patronize me. Just because I'm 14, doesn't mean I don't know how to handle a hot knife, nor does it mean I have a lot of time on my hands :p

Sorry didn't mean to be patronizing, I was just going from personal experience. And blowtorch burns do hurt, that's one I hope you don't have to learn from experience lol.

As for broke as I said all the material is cheap.

artyboy
30-08-2009, 19:56
You can't give the sorceress any type of armor. You can only give them items that they could normally use unless it says otherwise. The pegasus/focus familiar combo on a sorceress is actually very nasty. With good positioning you can see your targets but they can't see you. The mobility is second to none. There's no better way to avoid getting into combat, shot at or cast at. Take a couple of level 2 soreceress's, make one of them a scroll caddy and stick the other in a unit of 20-25 spearmen with the sacrificial dagger so you have a magic battery.

Also, take a dreadlord on a dragon with the 1+ armor and the pendant. I probably wouldn't bother with a master. If you do take one take Soul Render and the regen armor and stick him in a unit of black guard.

Everything else has already been said. Black guard w/ Ring of Hotek or Crimson Death and the ASF banner is a must. A unit or 2 of shades, a unit of cold one knights and a chariot or two will fill out your special slots. 2 Hydras and 2 RBTs will fill up your rare slots nicely. For troops just take a unit or two of dark guard with RxB, a unit or two of RxBowmen and a unit of spearmen for your sorceress's dagger battery. If you have the extra points then a couple of small units of harpies are a must.

Oh and don't forget to take an assassin or two.

sulla
30-08-2009, 20:04
Hmm... Anything else to do that doesn't involve the Focus Familiar or Pendant?Sure, black staff and MR2 is useful too, or the lifetaker. Black dragons come in handy as well. There are plenty of builds for lvl4's. Pendant, focus fami.liar is not really an optimal build IMO because if you have the familiar, you are not getting hit that many times anyway. Scrolls are never a bad idea either due to the fragile nature of your army.

willowdark
30-08-2009, 20:17
A Lvl4 is a really good place to put your scrolls. That way you can build your Lvl2 support mages for pure offense without saddling them with defensive items.

Traya
30-08-2009, 21:57
I just find it hilarious that both you AND your friend come on here asking for a cheesy list. Hilarity ensues.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217262

eyescrossed
31-08-2009, 00:35
Sorry didn't mean to be patronizing, I was just going from personal experience. And blowtorch burns do hurt, that's one I hope you don't have to learn from experience lol.

As for broke as I said all the material is cheap.
Hahaha, no problem. I've just had 3 butt injections, so I'm a little grumpy. But, I can't get anything. I actually owe my mum money.



You can't give the sorceress any type of armor. You can only give them items that they could normally use unless it says otherwise. The pegasus/focus familiar combo on a sorceress is actually very nasty. With good positioning you can see your targets but they can't see you. The mobility is second to none. There's no better way to avoid getting into combat, shot at or cast at. Take a couple of level 2 soreceress's, make one of them a scroll caddy and stick the other in a unit of 20-25 spearmen with the sacrificial dagger so you have a magic battery.
Ah, okay. I'll probably do that, then. I was thinking, though, why not give one the Sacrificial Dagger, the other a Darkstar Cloak, and both a Dispel Scroll each?

Also, would I be better off taking Tome of Furion or a Power Stone on my Lvl4, not including the Black Staff and FF?



Also, take a dreadlord on a dragon with the 1+ armor and the pendant. I probably wouldn't bother with a master. If you do take one take Soul Render and the regen armor and stick him in a unit of black guard.
Yeah, I'll probably do something like this.



Everything else has already been said. Black guard w/ Ring of Hotek or Crimson Death and the ASF banner is a must. A unit or 2 of shades, a unit of cold one knights and a chariot or two will fill out your special slots. 2 Hydras and 2 RBTs will fill up your rare slots nicely. For troops just take a unit or two of dark guard with RxB, a unit or two of RxBowmen and a unit of spearmen for your sorceress's dagger battery. If you have the extra points then a couple of small units of harpies are a must.
Yeah, I was planning on a very similar army list.

Oh, how could I guard my RBTs from Terradons/Flying Skinks?



Oh and don't forget to take an assassin or two.
Oh believe me, I won't :evilgrin:



Sure, black staff and MR2 is useful too, or the lifetaker. Black dragons come in handy as well. There are plenty of builds for lvl4's. Pendant, focus fami.liar is not really an optimal build IMO because if you have the familiar, you are not getting hit that many times anyway. Scrolls are never a bad idea either due to the fragile nature of your army.
Lifetaker looks cool, but I'd probably want to stay out of LoS.



A Lvl4 is a really good place to put your scrolls. That way you can build your Lvl2 support mages for pure offense without saddling them with defensive items.
Nah, because I really wanna try the Black Staff out.



I just find it hilarious that both you AND your friend come on here asking for a cheesy list. Hilarity ensues.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217262
Yeah, it's good and bad at the same time.

Good because he's getting advice as well as me, and bad because we can both look at each other's threads.

sulla
31-08-2009, 06:38
Lifetaker looks cool, but I'd probably want to stay out of LoS.

Nah, because I really wanna try the Black Staff out.


If you're taking the black staff, you're not taking the focus familiar, so you will want to be in LoS most of the time.

eyescrossed
31-08-2009, 06:48
Uhh... Who says I'm not taking the FF if I have the Black Staff?

eyescrossed
31-08-2009, 07:02
Sorry 'bout the double post, but would a Master with the Hydra Banner and a Great Weapon in a unit of BG with the Standard of Hag Graef be good?

mossel
31-08-2009, 09:36
it would be good, but make sure to give your BG champion the Crimson Death, to have 8 S6 attacks. ASF and an extra attack are only good when you actually kill some chaos knights that charge your black guard, as S4 won't do that much damage (wounding on 4+ and still a 2+save left)

eyescrossed
31-08-2009, 10:39
it would be good, but make sure to give your BG champion the Crimson Death, to have 8 S6 attacks. ASF and an extra attack are only good when you actually kill some chaos knights that charge your black guard, as S4 won't do that much damage (wounding on 4+ and still a 2+save left)

Yeah, I was sorta planning to.

Should I have them in ranks of 5 or 6? 6 seems a bit too wide.

willowdark
31-08-2009, 11:16
You can only have one Arcane item. So if you take the Black Staff, you can't take the Focus Familiar.

eyescrossed
31-08-2009, 12:18
Bah! *kicks self*

Well there goes a big part of my plan - why did I forget something so trivial?

Well, which would honestly be worth investing in more? Also, I suppose I can take a few Power Stones if I want more dice.

eyescrossed
01-09-2009, 00:56
I want to post a list, but I dont want my opponent to see :cries:

eyescrossed
01-09-2009, 10:13
Well I've decided to go WoC instead of DE, but I still want advice, so I'll just edit the title and first post.

To everyone who gave me Druchii advice, many thanks.

eyescrossed
01-09-2009, 10:31
I edited the title of the topic to say WoC instead of DE, but it hasn't changed.

zeekill
01-09-2009, 15:27
If he takes Lizzies, Max out on sorcs/supreme sorcs and give them all the lore of Shadow in case you get the pit of shades spell. The Lizardmens' low initiative will be their downfall, especially the Slann. Also take 4x Repeater crossbows. These help tremendously when taking out stegadons and carnosaurs.

If he takes Warriors, do the same thing with the sorcs, just use the lore of metal in hopes of Spirit of the Forge. On warriors thats 2D6 S5 with no save allowed, on Knights its 2D6 S6 with no save. Also the first spell in the lore will help a ton when needing to take out his nasty characters before they reach you. Also if he plays WoC take lots of Dark riders and 2 Hydras. Have the Dark riders redirect him, even if they dont get away your opponent better be prepared for 2 hydras in his flank. Also a nice thing to do to big blocks of warriors or marauders is march your hydras to their flank away from their LoS (so they cant charge you next turn) and use your 2 breath weapons at S5.

Good Luck, and sorry for constantly saying "also"

Just saying I'd personally just go with the Dark Elves. They have a much better chance against those armies than WoC do, especially if you get to use cheeze

eyescrossed
02-09-2009, 02:27
If he takes Lizzies, Max out on sorcs/supreme sorcs and give them all the lore of Shadow in case you get the pit of shades spell. The Lizardmens' low initiative will be their downfall, especially the Slann. Also take 4x Repeater crossbows. These help tremendously when taking out stegadons and carnosaurs.

If he takes Warriors, do the same thing with the sorcs, just use the lore of metal in hopes of Spirit of the Forge. On warriors thats 2D6 S5 with no save allowed, on Knights its 2D6 S6 with no save. Also the first spell in the lore will help a ton when needing to take out his nasty characters before they reach you. Also if he plays WoC take lots of Dark riders and 2 Hydras. Have the Dark riders redirect him, even if they dont get away your opponent better be prepared for 2 hydras in his flank. Also a nice thing to do to big blocks of warriors or marauders is march your hydras to their flank away from their LoS (so they cant charge you next turn) and use your 2 breath weapons at S5.

Good Luck, and sorry for constantly saying "also"

Just saying I'd personally just go with the Dark Elves. They have a much better chance against those armies than WoC do, especially if you get to use cheeze

Nonono, you don't understand - I don't even have a Fantasy army yet (I'm not counting Daemons... I'd rather forget them), and I've decided to collect WoC as a whole instead of Dark Elves.

zeekill
02-09-2009, 15:20
Nonono, you don't understand - I don't even have a Fantasy army yet (I'm not counting Daemons... I'd rather forget them), and I've decided to collect WoC as a whole instead of Dark Elves.

Oh lol ok then in that case i cant help you out Ive tried incorporating tactics from other armies for the WoC but then people yell at me. Just march towards the enemy. Thats all you really need to know