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HsojVvad
29-08-2009, 18:44
I was reading the thread about Tyranids getting a new codex. Since the codex is already made and can't change it since it's already done, and I don't want to derail the post with this question since it had nothing to do with it.

As I was reading it, some people wanted to give some Tyranids a BS of 4. Why? I can understand that GW gave tyranids units a BS of 2, and 3 with an option to upgrade to 4 for some units. Why do Tyranids need a basic stat of BS 4? Then are not suppose to be good at shooting. They are creatures, not huminoid witch shoot better.

I believe for fluff reasons, we should be the same as now, but maybe have new rules where you can maybe reroll failed hits. But Tyranids shouldn't be good at shooting, we are not humanoid, like Tau, Eldar or the Imperium.

Maybe in the new codex we will be cheaper points for the sake that we are not that high in BS, but I don't see why we should be having BS of 4, unless as a biomorph and then pay high points for it.

Your thoughts please.

Marshal Sinclair
29-08-2009, 18:52
Why does being humanoide automatically make you a better shot than a organic killing machine genetically designed from the ground up (unlike Marines who are only slightly altered regular joes) to be the perfect warriors?

As to BS4... Why should they not? If I am paying 200 points for a Carnifex, why can't I make it hit on a 3+?

Dreachon
29-08-2009, 19:09
The BS4 is mainly asked for zoanthropes so tat nids have a big more reliable ranged anti-tank.

Grimtuff
29-08-2009, 19:16
Why do Tyranids need a basic stat of BS 4? Then are not suppose to be good at shooting. They are creatures, not huminoid witch shoot better.


:eyebrows:
Of course, as we are obviously the master race in the Galaxy.

yabbadabba
29-08-2009, 19:16
There is no need for Tyranids to be BS4 as standard, and as the codecii are being simplified I wouldnt hold out too much hope on the BS upgrades being a thing of the future.

Radium
29-08-2009, 19:30
:eyebrows:
Of course, as we are obviously the master race in the Galaxy.

Seeing as the game is made by humans and mainly revolves around the Imperium, I think it is safe to say humanity IS the master race in 40k.

Also, scopes and sensors and the like help marines hit their targets (thus having a higher BS). There are always reasons someone can think of why nids don't need BS 4. And from a design point of view, they should not be able to reliably take down tanks at range.

Reimu
29-08-2009, 19:37
Hive Tyrants and Zoanthropes with BS4 as standard would be pretty fluffy. Hive Tyrants are, after all, the greatest warriors of the Hive Fleets in all aspects and generally carry the Hive Mind's intelligence in full, making each one much faster-thinking and further-seeing than any human combatant.

Zoanthropes, similarly, have a lot of sensory and processing power in this absolutely massive jumbles of cortex we approximate to a brain. There's no doubt that they have the capacity to be skilled marksbeasts.

Gaunts? No. They're the economy-model Tyranids, spawned as a living tide of chitin and nothing else. Much like Guardsmen, the idea behind them is to just shoot so often and so much that they statistically hit by default, rather than aim carefully.

Tyranid Warriors are up in the air. BS2 -> BS3 as an upgrade was pretty good. It at once made Warriors more economic in terms of hand-to-hand combat and stopped them from utterly dominating shooting (which they could do, anyway, with Twin-Linked weapons). Giving them BS4 might make them too powerful at shooting in comparison to their potential for hand-to-hand combat. Best keep them at BS3, max. Even taking this into account, all Tyranid "heavy" weapons have multiple shots or are template-based, so they still manage to be effective.

Carnifices are in a similar situation. Making them BS4 would make them far more shooty than hitty, and such beasts should be more hitty than shooty. Given that current options make shootiness much more tactically desirable, this is already an issue. I wouldn't mind if Carnifices were limited to BS2, personally. This would preserve the Screamy-Killiness while still keeping ranged weapon loadouts viable, if only though weight and strength of fire. Remember that many MC weapons are Twin-Linked, and a re-roll of a 5+ is essentially as good as a normal 3+ roll.

Marshal Sinclair
29-08-2009, 19:37
And from a design point of view, they should not be able to reliably take down tanks at range.

That's rubbish. Most armies (notable exception being Necrons) can easily deal with tanks in combat or range. Almost anything these days can take grenades. There are only 3 tanks in the game that a basic Guard squad can't deal with in combat (Demolisher, Land Raider and Monolith). Every army needs some way to deal with every situation.


Carnifices are in a similar situation. Making them BS4 would make them far more shooty than hitty, and such beasts should be more hitty than shooty. Given that current options make shootiness much more tactically desirable, this is already an issue. I wouldn't mind if Carnifices were limited to BS2, personally. This would preserve the Screamy-Killiness while still keeping ranged weapon loadouts viable, if only though weight and strength of fire. Remember that many MC weapons are Twin-Linked, and a re-roll of a 5+ is essentially as good as a normal 3+ roll.

Why should they be melee mainly? They are the most adaptable creature in the galaxy, and so are able to perform any battlefield role needed. Why is it an issue? Because it doesn't fit with your narrow view of Nids? BS3 standard with an upgarde to BS4 would be perfectly fine.

Reimu
29-08-2009, 19:39
And from a design point of view, they should not be able to reliably take down tanks at range.

This hit a nerve a little.

The 'Nids inability to do this is why playing them casually isn't viable. 'Nids need reliable ways to take down tanks. Hand-to-hand MCs, you say? Plenty of them get shot down before combat starts.

If 'Nids don't get extra ranged anti-tank power, then their hitty hand-to-hand units are going to have to get faster, more resilient, or both. Which would you prefer?

hendybadger
29-08-2009, 19:43
Also, scopes and sensors and the like help marines hit their targets (thus having a higher BS). There are always reasons someone can think of why nids don't need BS 4. And from a design point of view, they should not be able to reliably take down tanks at range.

And Tyranids wouldnt have bio versions? They alter to be better than their prey. So why not use the same tactics?

yabbadabba
29-08-2009, 19:44
Because it doesn't fit with your narrow view of Nids? Tell me you are on the wind up please?

HsojVvad
29-08-2009, 19:46
Why does being humanoide automatically make you a better shot than a organic killing machine genetically designed from the ground up (unlike Marines who are only slightly altered regular joes) to be the perfect warriors?

As to BS4... Why should they not? If I am paying 200 points for a Carnifex, why can't I make it hit on a 3+?

We are not Tau. We are different. I see a 3 is good enough since after all they are a living being, just like the rest of the universe. That is why 3 standard, upgradeable to 4.

Maybe my opnion is different than yours, but I see a Carni as a big lunk great for CC and not made to be shooty. If he is made to be shooty he shouldn't be good at it, since there are better resources to make a sniper or a shooty type unit. Why make a shooty type unit so big that it can't hide very well? It would be more resourcefull to make a shooty unit more smaller to shoot.

I can see a Carnifex being good a shooty, but it should be an artilary piece then wich it can snipe it's foes, but then shouldn't be good in CC then. Then again, that is my opnion, I am not saying I am right, just my opnion.


The BS4 is mainly asked for zoanthropes so tat nids have a big more reliable ranged anti-tank.

Or maybe just make them more cheaper. Why only have 1-3 Zoan units that are only anti tank? If I was the Hive mind, I would have made a different unit that was anti-tank. Lets just hope the new codex gives us a good anti-tank weapon.

Marshal Sinclair
29-08-2009, 19:51
I can see a Carnifex being good a shooty, but it should be an artilary piece then wich it can snipe it's foes, but then shouldn't be good in CC then. Then again, that is my opnion, I am not saying I am right, just my opnion.

I am not sure what the rest of the post means, but I got this. A fex tooled up for shooting is not good in combat. A Sniper Fex is effectively an artillery piece for all intents and purposes (bar IDF). As to why they don't hide... Same reason Dreadnoughts are used... They don't need to hide because they drop from orbit in drop pods and kill everything around them.

Grimtuff
29-08-2009, 19:51
We are not Tau. We are different. I see a 3 is good enough since after all they are a living being, just like the rest of the universe. That is why 3 standard, upgradeable to 4.


What do Tau have to do with it? Tau have poor BS because of GW's handwavium science. "Poor depth perception..." but they have 2 eyes. :eyebrows:

I really suggest you should read about Tyranid biology. It is Lego Genetics at it finest. If the Hive Mind wants to make a shootyfex variant it can and will make it with the best possible DNA available for the job.

Radium
29-08-2009, 20:23
That's rubbish. Most armies (notable exception being Necrons) can easily deal with tanks in combat or range. Almost anything these days can take grenades. There are only 3 tanks in the game that a basic Guard squad can't deal with in combat (Demolisher, Land Raider and Monolith). Every army needs some way to deal with every situation.


And how exactly is having grenades helping the guardsmen take down tanks at range? That was my entire point, the RANGE part. Nids can take down tanks in CC without a problem already.



This hit a nerve a little.

The 'Nids inability to do this is why playing them casually isn't viable. 'Nids need reliable ways to take down tanks. Hand-to-hand MCs, you say? Plenty of them get shot down before combat starts.

If 'Nids don't get extra ranged anti-tank power, then their hitty hand-to-hand units are going to have to get faster, more resilient, or both. Which would you prefer?

The problem is that units that have the potential to deal with tanks (lictors, raveners, warriors) are just too expensive to take or need some more work to make them useful again. And gargoyles should have some grenade equivalent.




Why should they be melee mainly? They are the most adaptable creature in the galaxy, and so are able to perform any battlefield role needed.


And Tyranids wouldnt have bio versions? They alter to be better than their prey. So why not use the same tactics?

Why would tyranids always need to 'evolve' when they get an update when the timeframe does not move forward? I assume nids need some time to adapt as well, and when everything else is stagnant, why not the nids?
Sure they would have some form of bio-sensors and whatnot, but is that really as good as computer-corrected blabla gadgets? From a logical standpoint it might be, but not in 40k where technowizardry rules supreme.

Gaargod
29-08-2009, 20:32
Specifically probably a mix of space marine and eldar, with large dollops of bio-tech thrown in.

Let's have it, the Hive Mind could basically churn out armies of Primarchs. Its just that doing so wouldn't be as efficient as their current armies. If their fexes needed their accuracy improved - say, an increase in the number of mechanized armies? - they would get it.

In other words, GW can write the fluff either way. It simply comes down to game balance (or unbalance, whatever is the case)

Marshal Sinclair
29-08-2009, 20:33
Tyranids don't need to take the time to evolve. They just need to see that the first wave didn't work, so the next they birth (minutes to hours later) will be better adapted to deal with the problem. If the first wave tried to stab the bunker to death, the second wave might try to shoot them from long range, or it might try an assault from under ground, or whatever the Hive Mind thinks will work best.

My point about the Grenades though was that Nids have LESS things for dealing with tanks both in combat and at range. Stealers, Ravenors, Lictors, Warriors and MCs are about it. In more armies EVERYTHING can deal with tanks in combat in one way or another (glance it to oblivion with defensive grenades, power fist, etc).

war_ripper
29-08-2009, 21:56
it's so they'll win

really i'm fine with BS 3 it's not that bad.

EVIL INC
29-08-2009, 22:01
I can actually see a agi 4 being fluffy depending upon how it was done. For example, it being a biomorph that takes the place of a "gun slot" on the big guys that can take multiples. Or a biomorph that does the same thing but also removes the ability to add on others like feeders or carapace.

guillimansknight
29-08-2009, 23:28
Just like orks nids point In the general direction of the enemy and pull the trigger

and orks have a low BS

Cami
30-08-2009, 00:11
Just like orks nids point In the general direction of the enemy and pull the trigger

and orks have a low BS

To be fair though, Orks like shooting stuff just as much for the sound as for it's actual killing ability.

BS4 on some units may be a way to improve 'Nids AV skills, but GW might take a different route to solving the problem (such as making it easier for MC to get into close combat without being shot to death).

hendybadger
30-08-2009, 00:17
I like that second thought!

D00M
30-08-2009, 01:11
Its alittle offtopic but i think someone closed the new codex general discussion thread or something :eyebrows:

Anyway

So on the subject of bitching about tyranid anti-tank

The vennom cannon should now automatically cause an embarked squad to disembark as the crystal shard fired is said is produced poisenous fumes inside the tank when shot in the fluff

This means the enemy player has to re-embark the squad in his turn and thus lose the ability to unload them when he wanted to
/
It gives you the ability to charge the occupants in the assault phase

Also you could argue the crew are gassed out and the vehical already automatically counts as stunned/shaken (probably only shaken to be fair) whatever is rolled on the glancing table

and BS4 zoanthropes + anti tank heavy wepion bivores yarda yarda..

Yes i know im a genius : ]

Edit: Also obviously surrounding a transport with gaunts and then shooting it with the vennom cannon would kill all occupants
Goodby abbadon and renue

Logan_uc
30-08-2009, 01:25
simple new unit... the hive mind creates a anti tank nid.
giving extra bs to nids isnt very fluffy they are beasts, geneticly engenired but beast.
people that want better bs are nid players that think that the hive mind can creat any thing... then way not make nids in dimond there are creatures in 40k universe that are made from dimond... and for the sake of it make them shoot vortex granades:evilgrin:

kazkal
30-08-2009, 01:26
Also, scopes and sensors and the like help marines hit their targets (thus having a higher BS). There are always reasons someone can think of why nids don't need BS 4. And from a design point of view, they should not be able to reliably take down tanks at range.
__________________

It's not about scopes and sensors...Because Tau are known for excellent eyesight & are most technology advance race and still only have a base BS of 3....It's for game balancing purposes.

shabbadoo
30-08-2009, 01:31
The vennom cannon should now automatically cause an embarked squad to disembark as the crystal shard fired is said is produced poisenous fumes inside the tank when shot in the fluff.

This means the enemy player has to re-embark the squad in his turn and thus lose the ability to unload them when he wanted to.

Also you could argue the crew are gassed out and the vehical already automatically counts as stunned/shaken (probably only shaken to be fair) whatever is rolled on the glancing table.

And troops in sealed armor should care about that for some reason? Will they disembark if "Trooper Wilson" lays out a rotten dead animal fart too? :p

The venom cannon basically does what it should do, and it is really not meant to be a vehicle killer anyways(assault X, small blast, poisoned, always glances would be awesome though). Perhaps it would be easier to, oh, say, create a new weapon with anti-armor capabilities? :eek: Yes, the solution is almost too simple. :D


and BS4 zoanthropes + anti tank heavy wepion bivores yarda yarda

Zoanthropes getting BS 4 would be fine, but Biovores don't need anti-tank spore mines. They are basically living mortars, not living heavy artillery. There is such a thing as asking for too much. ;)

ctsteel
30-08-2009, 01:31
Tyranids are organisms of animal instinct, driven on by a more powerful instinct (hive mind) - their only urge is to advance, attack, consume. They are genetically adapted to be killing machines, but this is not the same as true intelligence. They will be resilient in battle, fast, fluid and savage, but they don't retain memory of prior battles and adaptive reasoning in the same way as sapient creatures do.

They don't reason that "if I lead this shot like so, and cater for the motion of the enemy there, and wait for this soldier who is hiding behind a rock to poke his head out, and if I was behind that rock I'd be behind that part there, so I'll line my shot up and anticipate the move, now". Instead it's more a case of 'movement over there, turn and attack, move toward it, more movement closer, turn toward....no continue to this prey".

My response is a bit waffly but my point is that the higher BS levels account for knowledge and training, anticipation, aim deflection, skill, as well as enhanced senses and there will be occasions that it is appropriate for a nid to have an improvement with a biomorph, but not a boost across the board.

Cami
30-08-2009, 01:33
I was thinking something along the lines of larger Tyranid creatures being able to generate huge clouds of gas/spores around themselves, hampering anyone's ability to aim at them, and therefore giving Nid MCs a constant cover save (if they paid for the upgrade).

It makes them harder to shoot at, but not impossible to kill at range (but involves throwing large amounts of firepower at several targets to get a kill, which still benefits 'Nids players).

Astrotrain
30-08-2009, 01:49
warning rant:

Wow the race that gets nearly every special ability in the game outside of they shall know no fear now wants BS4.They might as well want power armor and assault cannons too.Its bad enough that synapse units can survive direct demolisher cannon hits with only one wound loss,Can spam the board with MC and have the easiest army to power game with.Do they want fnp for free too?

Nids are not in need of tooling up as appose to DE, Deamon hunters or Necrons

kazkal
30-08-2009, 01:58
warning rant:

Wow the race that gets nearly every special ability in the game outside of they shall know no fear now wants BS4.They might as well want power armor and assault cannons too.Its bad enough that synapse units can survive direct demolisher cannon hits with only one wound loss,Can spam the board with MC and have the easiest army to power game with.Do they want fnp for free too?

Nids are not in need of tooling up as appose to DE, Deamon hunters or Necrons


Also got by fine with their current BS in 4th edition....they do need be updated to 5th but giving em a BS 4 is not the way

Dust King
30-08-2009, 01:58
They don't reason that "if I lead this shot like so, and cater for the motion of the enemy there, and wait for this soldier who is hiding behind a rock to poke his head out, and if I was behind that rock I'd be behind that part there, so I'll line my shot up and anticipate the move, now". Instead it's more a case of 'movement over there, turn and attack, move toward it, more movement closer, turn toward....no continue to this prey".


Simple explanation, reflex. Do you think chameleons go through all those thought processes before they shoot their tongue at a bug? Newly 'born' gaunts don't need to learn how to walk or what enemies to shoot (you don't see gaunts attacking trees in the middle of a battle)

It's already mentioned in the feeder tendrils biomorph that the hive mind is constantly feeding information about the enemy biology, weak points and behaviour, it makes sense that it would also tell them how to shoot to compensate for movement as well as atmospheric conditions and armour.

They don't have to think their way through their actions they only have to have the responses programmed into their behaviour. For example "new enemies have appeared to the flank, turn and attack them. Targets are running sideways adjust all shots for motion. Target is unable to fight, switch to new target"

Just because they can't reason doesn't mean they can't respond appropriately.

As for BS4 Zonies They don't even have to aim at their targets, they just think 'explode', they should probably have a higher BS than what they have now, missing 50% of the time is a bit much, right now you need 2 or 3 working together for them to be an effective anti tank option

guillimansknight
30-08-2009, 02:11
Bout nid evolution they have travelled across galaxies

That must mean they have evolved over an unfathomable amount of time
what makes you think they're gonna evolve to deal with **** like power armours weak points or how to imobilise a trukk in what must be the tinyest possible fraction of their existance??

D00M
30-08-2009, 02:13
And troops in sealed armor should care about that for some reason? Will they disembark if "Trooper Wilson" lays out a rotten dead animal fart too? :p

The venom cannon basically does what it should do, and it is really not meant to be a vehicle killer anyways(assault X, small blast, poisoned, always glances would be awesome though). Perhaps it would be easier to, oh, say, create a new weapon with anti-armor capabilities? :eek: Yes, the solution is almost too simple. :D



Zoanthropes getting BS 4 would be fine, but Biovores don't need anti-tank spore mines. They are basically living mortars, not living heavy artillery. There is such a thing as asking for too much. ;)

Marines aren't invincible sealed away in thier armour, they do have air intakes and cant filter out everything (vennom cannon gas for example :chrome:)

The living wepion role of the biovore should definatly be built upon, give the bivore the option to upgade to an anti-tank heavy wepion

I just dont want to see the tyranids given a tyranid lascannon its boring as hell and unfluffy

D00M
30-08-2009, 02:18
I was thinking something along the lines of larger Tyranid creatures being able to generate huge clouds of gas/spores around themselves, hampering anyone's ability to aim at them, and therefore giving Nid MCs a constant cover save (if they paid for the upgrade).

It makes them harder to shoot at, but not impossible to kill at range (but involves throwing large amounts of firepower at several targets to get a kill, which still benefits 'Nids players).

The zerg in starcraft had a caster which could do this (it was a big orange cloud)

Id love to see something like this on hive tyrants and the like

megatrons2nd
30-08-2009, 02:18
Why not a template bio acid attack that is S4 AP5 that against vehicles glances on a 3-4 and pens on a 5-6?

Vepr
30-08-2009, 02:47
warning rant:

Wow the race that gets nearly every special ability in the game outside of they shall know no fear now wants BS4.They might as well want power armor and assault cannons too.Its bad enough that synapse units can survive direct demolisher cannon hits with only one wound loss,Can spam the board with MC and have the easiest army to power game with.Do they want fnp for free too?

Nids are not in need of tooling up as appose to DE, Deamon hunters or Necrons

I will agree that BS4 is not needed for nids and I don't see the point of even asking for it other than the rare upgrade to units like tyrants.

I disagree though that nids don't need work. Other than MC's our other choices are expensive for what they do and they not holding up all that well in 5th. Synapse is clunky but as nice as it is for warriors to survive a battle cannon hit our basic troopers who are armored in wet toilet paper take a lot of abuse due to the new fearless rules and we cannot even support them with our bigger bugs because all the wounds that spill over due to the gants and gaunts. Other than stealers who suck at holding objective with all their points tied into assault our other troop choices need a babysitter to even claim objectives.

Other armies needed an update worse but it is not like nids don't have issues and with the changes to scoring with troops nidzilla is not the power gaming army it once was.

PhalanxLord
30-08-2009, 03:28
Carnifices are in a similar situation. Making them BS4 would make them far more shooty than hitty, and such beasts should be more hitty than shooty. Given that current options make shootiness much more tactically desirable, this is already an issue. I wouldn't mind if Carnifices were limited to BS2, personally. This would preserve the Screamy-Killiness while still keeping ranged weapon loadouts viable, if only though weight and strength of fire. Remember that many MC weapons are Twin-Linked, and a re-roll of a 5+ is essentially as good as a normal 3+ roll.

They get tl'd devs and DS and thats it. Making them BS2 would screw over venom cannons. That would screw over our anti-tank even more. Also a 5+ with re-rolls isn't quite as good as a 3+. Its 5/9 vs 6/9. Its even worse for people who can't roll a 5 or a 6 for the life of them. Besides, would you want all fex VCs as tl'd by default?

Personally I've tried using a CC nid list vs mech. It doesn't work. We actually do need better anti-tank shooting. Fexes are the only thing that can really stun/shake most tanks and when most enemies tend to have a good half a dozen vehicles including transports (which only really fexes and nids with an inaccurate DS and lucky rolls can deal with) you need all the anti-tank firepower that you can get.

In the game that I had played against mech I had taken one of my favorite lists, my 3 heavy CCfex list with 2 tyrants on top. My opponent's land speeders stayed out of range and shot with missile launchers and multi-meltas and most of my firepower (one tyrant and two units of warriors) couldn't really do much because my enemy could outrange me and they couldn't damage the enemy vehicles very effectively. Of course I did suffer from some really bad luck that game (ex: a fex charged a stationary LR, got 7 hits, but then proceeded to get only two pens and rolled double 1s for damage) but I doubt the list would have done much better even if I had rolled better. Some sniperfexes and zoans would have really helped there. So pretty much making Fexes BS2 would really screw with us because screamer killers aren't very effective at taking on Mech at all unless you consider not being able to hurt the enemy for most of the game a good strategy. Note that this is against marines/guard. Believe me, you don't want to see CCfexes against Mechdar (unless you love Eldar).



Maybe my opnion is different than yours, but I see a Carni as a big lunk great for CC and not made to be shooty. If he is made to be shooty he shouldn't be good at it, since there are better resources to make a sniper or a shooty type unit. Why make a shooty type unit so big that it can't hide very well? It would be more resourcefull to make a shooty unit more smaller to shoot.

I can see a Carnifex being good a shooty, but it should be an artilary piece then wich it can snipe it's foes, but then shouldn't be good in CC then. Then again, that is my opnion, I am not saying I am right, just my opnion.

Or maybe just make them more cheaper. Why only have 1-3 Zoan units that are only anti tank? If I was the Hive mind, I would have made a different unit that was anti-tank. Lets just hope the new codex gives us a good anti-tank weapon.

We have a different opinion for carnifexes. Considering its big, its tough, its got low WS, and its slow (low I) I would say its very much not designed for CC. Its pretty much a tank-> large and with lots of firepower. And like a tank, there's a good reason its so large: you can't fit weapons as strong on something smaller. Also, shooty fexes are essentially artillery pieces. Sure they're hard to kill and they have ignore saves with high strength, but as I said they're slow, they have low WS, and they have a low number of attacks. They suck at CC unless you buy them tons of upgrades.

As for zoans, making them cheaper doesn;t make them any better at being anti-tank. Lots of people already take 3. It doesn't help because you'll generally miss/fail two of the three shots before you even get to roll against the opponent's AV. They could really use that extra point of BS.

Astrotrain
30-08-2009, 05:05
Sigh.. if nid players are going to say things along the line of "well their engineered to be killing machines so they should be accurate shooters" then you should also advocate fragmentation grenades should be blast template weapons and space marine bolters should be AP1 rending weapons do to the fact that their basically automatic M203 grenade launchers with 75. cal. grenade rounds.

Also carnifexes will top a armor unit for the fact it has wounds. (if you hit a leman russ with a single lascannon you have a shot at eliminating it from play,to so when it comes to a MC)
Lets not forget that tyranids are not dependant on their HS units to destroy tanks as their basic troops units can carry rending weapons and run with fleet to overrun a gunline by turn 3 at most.

massey
30-08-2009, 05:09
Nids had fantastic shooting in 2nd edition. There's no reason they couldn't be that good again. Those who say that nids shouldn't be good at shooting don't know anything about nids.

Tyranids are genetically engineered to do whatever it is that they do. So if you've got a nid who is designed for HTH, he should be awesome at HTH. If you have a nid who is designed for shooting, he should be awesome at shooting. If you have a nid who is designed to be a bullet magnet for a larger creature, etc., etc., etc. This idea that somehow it's not "fluffy" for a tyranid to know how to shoot a gun is just stupid. Nids have had good shooting since the very beginning.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they eliminated a Zoanthropes' BS entirely. Make it all based upon a psychic test. Made my test, boom you're hit. Whatever they do, they need to make nids a more complete army, giving them answers to the current power builds in 5th. As much as people bitch and moan about nidzilla, that is the only build that gives you a puncher's chance to win. If people want nidzilla to not be mandatory, they need to make other builds competitive.

Dust King
30-08-2009, 05:14
Also carnifexes will top a armor unit for the fact it has wounds. (if you hit a leman russ with a single lascannon you have a shot at eliminating it from play,to so when it comes to a MC)
Lets not forget that tyranids are not dependant on their HS units to destroy tanks as their basic troops units can carry rending weapons and run with fleet to overrun a gunline by turn 3 at most.

And any armour unit can simply drive away from a 'fex and keep firing. Also what are 'nids supposed to do against eldar and the like, I would love to see a 'fex manage to catch a fire prism.

rending seems nice on paper but the only time I've ever killed a vehicle with rending was an mobilised, weapon less dreadnought. As a anti-vehicle option rending is almost useless.

Tyranids need a decent ranged anti-vehicle option, BS4 Zonthropes will solve this, there are other options but this is one of the simplest.

polymphus
30-08-2009, 05:20
Look, you can give all the fluff reasons on the planet for giving your 'nids BS4, but in the end one thing comes up trumps: game balance. If you go by the fluff the guard should bring 1000 men to a 1500pt game and a lone marine should take all 1000 of those guardsmen down with only a flamer and some ingenuity. That marine and all his buddies would then get their arses kicked by the necrons. See where I'm going here? I'm not saying that the 'nids don't need a buff, but universal BS4 is not the way to go. I like the ideas about making the MCs harder to target and the like: maybe giving more units fleet could work nicely too.

Poly

Khorneflakes
30-08-2009, 05:36
I wouldnt be surprised if one of the new species in the book is a bs4, anti tank, multiple shot, high str unit

Dust King
30-08-2009, 05:39
@polymphus:No-one mentioned a universal BS4, that would be ridiculous;)

The quiestion is about giving some units the option to upgrade to it. Personally I think Zonies, 'fexs and tyrants would work well with this, Basic BS of 3 with the option to buy an upgrade to 4. It would give the 'nids the necessary ranged AV and not make them to OP

Edonil
30-08-2009, 05:43
@Dust King

Actually, quite a few people were mentioning universal BS4. Or, that's how they were writing. I think Zoanthropes and Tyrants should have BS4 normal, but Fexes shouldn't. A completely new bug to fill that niche would be my preference, and they should make Fexes worthwhile hth bugs, upping that I and WS.

Dust King
30-08-2009, 05:59
Actually from what I just read through the thread, people were saying either "some 'nids need an option to upgrade to BS4" and others saying "Tyranids should not have universal BS4" I couldn't see anyone saying that 'nids should have universal BS4. It just seems like people weren't reading the posts before them.

What it comes down to for me is 'nids need a decent ranged AV unit and right now Zonies and sniperfexs can't hit enough of the time to make them useful.

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 06:17
Tyranids are genetically engineered to do whatever it is that they do. So if you've got a nid who is designed for HTH, he should be awesome at HTH. If you have a nid who is designed for shooting, he should be awesome at shooting. If you have a nid who is designed to be a bullet magnet for a larger creature, etc., etc., etc. This idea that somehow it's not "fluffy" for a tyranid to know how to shoot a gun is just stupid. Nids have had good shooting since the very beginning.


So basically Tyranids are suppose to be the best at everything? How is that fair for other people playing against Tyranids? What you just explained sounded like a SM. There should be balance and fairness for everyone, otherwise playing Tyranids will be boring for the Tyranid player eventually, unless all you care about is winning, and everyone will not want to play agains Tyranids then. Almost sounds like the Chaos 3.5 codex.

But if you really want to go fluffy, why would the Tyranids want to make small creatures and waste all those resources. Why not just make one Tyranid creature that was psychic and killed everyone from the inisde out? This would take way less resources than fielding millions of small Tryanids to caputre a planet. Look at Macragge? They failed and wasted all the resources to take over that planet, so if Tyranids had good shooting from the begining, how come they lost at Macragge? If they are suppose to be so good and evolve they would never have failed. I know that sounds stupid but the argument can be said both ways.

Just so you think I am not a Tyranid player, I am starting to collect them. I am just doing DA first, then orks for my kids, then Tyranids again for myself. I like them lots, are my favorite but so many models that look the same, I just needed to take a break from them.


Look, you can give all the fluff reasons on the planet for giving your 'nids BS4, but in the end one thing comes up trumps: game balance. If you go by the fluff the guard should bring 1000 men to a 1500pt game and a lone marine should take all 1000 of those guardsmen down with only a flamer and some ingenuity. That marine and all his buddies would then get their arses kicked by the necrons. See where I'm going here? I'm not saying that the 'nids don't need a buff, but universal BS4 is not the way to go. I like the ideas about making the MCs harder to target and the like: maybe giving more units fleet could work nicely too.

Poly

Exactly, game balance, as I said to the poster above. Fluff wise, Tyranids should never loose a game, and should win all battles, since they evolved they should be able to conquer any situation.


Actually from what I just read through the thread, people were saying either "some 'nids need an option to upgrade to BS4" and others saying "Tyranids should not have universal BS4" I couldn't see anyone saying that 'nids should have universal BS4. It just seems like people weren't reading the posts before them.

What it comes down to for me is 'nids need a decent ranged AV unit and right now Zonies and sniperfexs can't hit enough of the time to make them useful.

If you read other threads in other posts, some people seem to be talking like this, that is why I asked here, why is that.

PhalanxLord
30-08-2009, 07:27
So basically Tyranids are suppose to be the best at everything? How is that fair for other people playing against Tyranids? What you just explained sounded like a SM. There should be balance and fairness for everyone, otherwise playing Tyranids will be boring for the Tyranid player eventually, unless all you care about is winning, and everyone will not want to play agains Tyranids then. Almost sounds like the Chaos 3.5 codex.

But if you really want to go fluffy, why would the Tyranids want to make small creatures and waste all those resources. Why not just make one Tyranid creature that was psychic and killed everyone from the inisde out? This would take way less resources than fielding millions of small Tryanids to caputre a planet. Look at Macragge? They failed and wasted all the resources to take over that planet, so if Tyranids had good shooting from the begining, how come they lost at Macragge? If they are suppose to be so good and evolve they would never have failed. I know that sounds stupid but the argument can be said both ways.


There's also efficiency to be taken into account. What good is a single super powered creature if it takes more time and energy to create than 1 billion weaker ones? Not only that, but it would likely be easier to kill than all those gaunts, too. Thats why nids have some things weaker. They require less resources to make and due to numbers can do the same job more effectively. I doubt gaunts would be nearly as effective if the hive mind made them all into tyrantEQs because they wouldn't be able to make even a tiny fraction of as many of them.

Also, what does being able to shoot well have to do with the BFM? SpaM have beaten plenty of armies with very good guns. Considering that if they improve the aim it would affect the army in a different way (numbers for example) there's no telling if it would have made a difference.

Think about it this way. We get a hormagaunt for XXpts. If we want it stronger, we pay an extra Xpts but that means we can't take as many hormagaunts. Its the same with actual nids. By making a unit stronger they use more materials and energy and can't have as many of them, so while it could originally make 1 billion hormagaunts it may only be able to make 900 million of the stronger type.

There's also nothing that proves that because they can evolve so fast that they are so invincible. In fact, the opposite are true. Its because they get beaten that they evolve. They would have no reason to spend extra resources to create new species or improve the current ones if the current ones were pwning everything. There would be no reason to evolve. The fleets evolve and adapt to their enemies figuring out how to beat them so that they can win the war if not the battle.

shabbadoo
30-08-2009, 07:47
Marines aren't invincible sealed away in thier armour, they do have air intakes and cant filter out everything (vennom cannon gas for example :chrome:)

Ummm... you're kinda wrong. Power armor is made such that it can be sealed up so as to allow the wearer to survive in a vacuum for an extended period of time. You know what a vacuum is? Nope, it's not being inside one of these:
http://www.printableonlinegiftcertificates.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/vacuum-cleaner.jpg

...it is floating around in this:
http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/outer-space.gif
Space....the final frontier. "Look Ma, no air!" ;)

Marrak
30-08-2009, 11:29
Okay, I don't think any reasonable Tyranid player wants BS 4 across the board, that's just retarded and while yes, we're amazingly evolved super-dinosaur-bugs, having a BS on Gaunts that equals Space marines would be flat out rediculous due to the sheer amount of firepower we can dish out. Only two units warrant such treatment within the codex... Hive Tyrants and Zoanthropes; the former due to its status as Top Dog of the Tyranid ground forces, and the latter simply because that's all it's shown doing... blowing up tanks like pinatas with warp blast. Now, ironically, the reason for the need of BS 4 has little to do with the bugs themselves and more to do with their supposed use/fire selection for having this weapon loadout: tank hunting.

Now then, certain units should have access to BS 4, either through upgrades or naturally. The Hive Tyrant is a no-brainer, but he's always had this. The other, if and only if Warp Blast remains in it's current form of requiring a psi-test and a hit roll, is the Zoanthrope.

I'll tackle the Warp Blast upgrade first, since it affects them both. Here's a focused blast that requires first to pass a psychic test that both will probably make, and then only have a 50/50 chance of hitting. And yes I know the current rules state that the focused blast would overload enhanced senses... but let's be honest, the Zoanthrope doesn't even have eyes to burn out. It's a cool game mechanic and might be fluffy, but honestly the whole "My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" approach to ES and Warp Blast makes it a chore to even use the power with usually very little payoff. On top of that, the range for the focused blast... let me re-emphasize focused, is somehow shorter than the non-focused. In fact, the range is just right to see our dear little Zoanthrope get pasted by massed return fire from small arms or a charge by some fast CC troops, so to even use the focused blast means that we usually have to sacrifice the Zoanthrope, simply due to how close in proximity it is to the enemy.

Next, the venom cannon, which has probably gotten the worst screw up of background I've ever seen. For all intents the Venom Cannon is an organic rail gun; the crystals are fired at super-sonic speeds, and explode on impact. In its original writings, this thing was a glorified thudd-gun (think thunderfire cannon if you're not familiar) that was essentially the big gun for Tyranids. Even in its current writing from the codex, it's described as being able to puncture vehicle armor. The glance only rule is a carry-over from 4th ed. to balance it against mech relative fragility: it was a drawback, but it still had the chance to immobilize or destroy a tank with one shot. In 5th this is no longer the case, and even if a Hive Tyrant with ES shoots a Rhino, it has 3 shots that essentially all have to hit, damage, and then roll high on the damage chart to take the Rhino out of the game. If it's a Carnifex its chances are much worse, essentially requiring the above situation plus 6s from both dice on the damage chart.

Now on to suggestions... Warp Blast, in it's focused form, makes very little sense. It is a short range shot that exposes the user to a great deal of return fire, and in the case of the Zoanthrope nearly guaranteed destruction. I almost never shoot a tank with it, save as a "Hail Mary" shot. The focused blast could use a much longer range at the bare minimum, bring it in line with the VC and BS. The way the blast has been described could even warrant from the lance rule. Also, frankly, all it should have to use is the psychic check... drop the hit roll. If that happened you can keep the Zoanthrope at BS 3, but right now Warp Blast needs something.

The mighty venom cannon mainly just needs to lose the glance only rule and again, you have a limited number of critters who can use it, most of whom can only boast a 50% hit ratio, while one (and only one) pushes the numbers up to 66%. Every other aspect about this weapon is fine.

My apologies if I started to drift off topic, but I felt it was needed to show just why these two bugs (IMO) should naturally have, or have access to BS 4.

Mr.Rotty
30-08-2009, 14:05
I think the only thing that would need BS4 is the zoan, Its very birth is dedicated to ranged shooting (fluffwise), everything else can stay as whatever it is for me

*EDIT* Or Marrak's suggestion :)

Bolter Bait
30-08-2009, 14:39
Its less that I'd want sweeping BS4 but more "I'd like the option to pay to upgrade to it on most units." Do I think basic Gaunts should ever be BS4? Hell no. Cheaper with WS/BS2? I'd buy a ticket to ride that train.

Do I think Warriors should be base BS3 with an option to upgrade it? Yes, I think it's a great idea that I shouldn't have to pay points to upgrade a HQ/Elite brood to be only as good as my basic Troops. Especially when it is Warriors that I picture when I think of Nid's with guns, all the way back to 2nd edition plastic Warriors with Deathspitters and Devourers.

Do I think that allowing the broods with access to Warp Blast to also have BS4 is balanced? Yes, I think it is a simple way of allowing Nids to have a small ranged anti-tank boost without mucking up Nid imagery by inventing a bio-weapon that is basically a meltagun or saying "Lictors should have a biological equivalent to metabombs, durr durr durr."

Do I think a Carnifex should be able to have BS4? For that, I'm on the fence. I don't like ranged Carnifex. I like Screamer Killers, I like Ultrafexes, I like the imagery of a living battering ram. On the other hand, when I do field a ranged Fex, I don't like paying massive amounts of points for a 2 shot weapon that'll miss 50% of the time and can only glance vehicles and tickle infantry squads, nor do I like paying massive amounts of points for a 1-shot weapon that can only ever glance the toughest of vehicles and betrays me by scattering all over the place 2/3rds of the time.

[Disclaimer]I'm still of the mindset that Tyranid shooting should be extremely limited in that no guns should have better than AP4 (Warp Blast and Bio-Acid Mines being the exceptions) and that Tyranid shooting should be a less reliable anti-tank option than CC. However, with the masses and masses of mech-lists and the change to the vehicle damage table made the 4th ed Tyranid method of ranged anti-tank (multiple plinking glances to keep a vehicle stunned) so pathetically useless, something needs to be done. To me, the best way to do that is to make the only viable ranged anti-tank, Warp Blast, slightly more reliable by allowing for BS4 focused blasts.

massey
30-08-2009, 15:12
So basically Tyranids are suppose to be the best at everything? How is that fair for other people playing against Tyranids? What you just explained sounded like a SM. There should be balance and fairness for everyone, otherwise playing Tyranids will be boring for the Tyranid player eventually, unless all you care about is winning, and everyone will not want to play agains Tyranids then. Almost sounds like the Chaos 3.5 codex.

Because we'd pay the points for it.

Tyranids are like really ugly Eldar. They've got Genestealers, who are the best hand to hand troops in the game, but have no guns. They've got the Carnifex, who is a big nasty monster who can be tooled out to be either a walking fire platform or a big mean close combat monster. They've got the Hive Tyrant, which is in my opinion the best HQ in the game. Tyranids specialize. The problem is that, due to the 5th edition rules changes, everyone's tanks got better, and nid anti-tank got worse. Nids had good anti-tank in 4th. Their fluff didn't suddenly change so that their anti-tank was bad.



Just so you think I am not a Tyranid player, I am starting to collect them. I am just doing DA first, then orks for my kids, then Tyranids again for myself. I like them lots, are my favorite but so many models that look the same, I just needed to take a break from them.

So what you're saying is that you really haven't really played them. Once you play them regularly, you'll see that they're nearly helpless against a fast mechanized force.

Game balance shouldn't be simple rock-paper-scissors. It shouldn't be "Tyranids beat infantry but lose to tanks". You should be able to build a nid army that is powerful in hand to hand, has good anti-tank and anti-infantry shooting, and where the balancing is done in the point costs, not in the simple unavailability of certain options.

Logan_uc
30-08-2009, 16:35
this tread is about making Nids over powerd... pure and simple.

Nid players have warp blast and venom canon to bust tanks in the shooting phase, they are str 10, kan blow up LR, monoliths(most armys dont have weapons this good for this guy). the best shooty wepon for tank hunting the orks have is a TWL rokit that hits 5/9 of the time, not much better than bs3 and can only glance AV 14.

But then comes the fluf " they are engenerd to shoot" and the past "they didt better in 2nd", then way cant my CSM take mutations and veteran skills, its more in the fluf and they did int in 3.5th.

Nids are alredy good shots becouse of the living weapon rule, and the low ap in this cover heavy enviorment isnt that bad.

now you can say tha biovores suk big time, then there are chaos spawn, peal legion, lost and the damned,parihas, etc...

you my say that you have over priced units, its true alll older codex have thats way they are making a new one.

P.S: if your nids are so perfect way in hell hive fleet behemoth was butcherd by half a dosen smurfs:evilgrin:

LordAzaroth
30-08-2009, 17:15
Logan, I don't even play nids and from the sounds of things, I can't understand a word you said. Nids probably need more viable anti tank options and maybe an upgradeable BS on the big toys, not because they were better in an earlier edition, but because the gameplay style has changed.

P.S. Lost and the Damned aren't usable in competitive enviroments, and Pirahas don't exist, unless you mean Piranhas, and in that case, they are an annoyingly fast zippy unit that isn't supposed to kill a tank from half the board away, we have Hammerheads for that

Marshal Sinclair
30-08-2009, 17:19
Venom Cannon doesn't kill vehicles, neither does the Biovore. No anti-tank weapon has the living weapon/ammunition rule.

Astrotrain
30-08-2009, 17:27
This thread is sounding more and more like "We nid players demand that our armies become instant win buttons like they used to be"If they want BS4 then they should give something up,like voiding the instant death shield offered by synapse (switch makes no sense fluff wise if were going to use fluff as a way to base our arguments) or give less units the synapse rule making it easer to break the synapse network.Lets not forget that its almost certain that the nids are getting the Trygon, a superb anti tank unit that deepstrikes and is an MC.

sydbridges
30-08-2009, 17:38
P.S. Lost and the Damned aren't usable in competitive enviroments, and Pirahas don't exist, unless you mean Piranhas, and in that case, they are an annoyingly fast zippy unit that isn't supposed to kill a tank from half the board away, we have Hammerheads for that

I think he meant Pariahs.

"parihas" vs pariahs. It's only a swap of two letters apart.

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 17:44
Yeah true, I don't play Nids right now. I guess the thing that through me off starting them, was that Orks are more of a Horde army than Nids are at the moment. I can see why people don't have alot of gaunts or stealers since it's too expensive to have such a large brood.

But if you are playing fluff wise, you would have a brood of 32 gaunts and that brood getting whittled down by the time they reach Close Combat.

I see the problem is not having such a low BS, but having our units cost too much where you really can't have a large brood. I can see having a brood of 32 gaunts, or what ever the max is for Homries and Genies are, (forget at the moment) is they should be at max, and turn 1, 2 and 3 they get shot at. So hoping at turn 2, and almost always by turn 3, those units should be at CC, with at least say 15 or so gaunts, and at least 8 hormies and Genies. You can't really do that right now because they cost too much.

Thatis an uneffeicent use of resources (points wise) to field and that is why we have lots of Nidzilla armies because it's more resourcefull of points to win. That is why I said fluff wise, make one super strong unit, that as someone else said have a billion smaller units. With the current rules you can't have your billions of units.

I don't think having a BS of 4 will solve the problem. Cheaper cost units will help so we can field more units. Anthour problem I see, is if we do get BS 4, will those units be going up agaisnt tanks? What about other units that arnt tanks, would that be fluffy thento be shooting non tank units then? Wouldn't that make it more overpowered then? I can see if a Nid is going to have a BS of 4 or even 5 or 6 agaisnt tanks, then it shouldn't be able to shoot other units or have a BS of 2 when going agaisnt non tanks.

Just my opnion. I guess if I played some real games, with the real rules, then my mind will change. But again like I said or I ment and should have clearly said in my original post, why do people want BS of 4. I can see a uint or two being BS 4, but almost every unit of BS 4 seems insane to me. Imagine a brood of 32 gaunts with BS of 4, that is just crazy.

Dreachon
30-08-2009, 17:45
Logan,

You should read the nid codex properly and see the point you adressed.

1. venomcannon can only glance a vehicle period, no blowing up vehicles with it.
2. the focussed warpblast has poor range and can miss at least half the time it's fired, also giving it's short range it won't hit a vehicle untill the 3rd turn.
3. living ammo does nothing against vehicles.

No one is asking for over-powered options, you should read.
Nids right now have very little to deal with the heavy mech armies.

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 17:51
I got anthour question then. Do you want to have a BS of 4 to counter tanks, or would you rather have a new option of getting our units to CC faster to counter tanks?

Like cheaper gaunts so we can have more gaunts, (or genies, or hormies) to be able to be shot at, but still have a good number to combat the tanks?

Or do you want more shooty Nids that hit more but with the same weapon rules as of now, to go against tanks?

I know non of this can change since the new codex is already done and finished, I just want to hear what Nid players would like, that is all.

Bolter Bait
30-08-2009, 18:03
this tread is about making Nids over powerd... pure and simple.

Nid players have warp blast and venom canon to bust tanks in the shooting phase, they are str 10, kan blow up LR, monoliths(most armys dont have weapons this good for this guy). the best shooty wepon for tank hunting the orks have is a TWL rokit that hits 5/9 of the time, not much better than bs3 and can only glance AV 14.

But then comes the fluf " they are engenerd to shoot" and the past "they didt better in 2nd", then way cant my CSM take mutations and veteran skills, its more in the fluf and they did int in 3.5th.

Nids are alredy good shots becouse of the living weapon rule, and the low ap in this cover heavy enviorment isnt that bad.

now you can say tha biovores suk big time, then there are chaos spawn, peal legion, lost and the damned,parihas, etc...

you my say that you have over priced units, its true alll older codex have thats way they are making a new one.

P.S: if your nids are so perfect way in hell hive fleet behemoth was butcherd by half a dosen smurfs:evilgrin:Despite the war crimes you've performed to the English language in your post, I'm going to be polite as I can.

Regarding the Venom Cannon. On any Tyranid unit, barring the Carnifex, it's effectively an auto-cannon. Do auto-cannons kill tanks? No, they bust light transports and harass infantry. Auto-cannons also come most of the time in BS4 or twin-linked flavours, making them highly accurate. A Tyrant can shoot 3 times with a VC, and pay to have BS4, which makes it a 3-shot and accurate auto-cannon, with the stipulation that against any closed-vehicle, 50% of the Destroyed results are thrown out the window. This is in addition to totally being unable to scratch AV14, which, incidentally, are the key features of the two vehicles you listed as fearing VCs. As for a VC on a Carnifex, the only VC in the entire army that can touch AV14 with the "dreaded" Str10, we get a whopping 4% chance per shooting phase to destroy one of the vehicles you listed. Yes, we are the terrors of ranged anti-tank. Fear us!

Warp Blast. Requires a successful Psychic Test, a successful hit and then rolling a 4+ against the vehicles you gave as examples. Pretending that a Range of 18(24)" isn't a liability, a single Tyrant or Zoanthrope has a 22.9% chance to at least glance AV14 or a 15% chance to score a Penetrating hit on the same armour. If a 3.8% or 5% chance of destroying your AV14 vehicles is enough to get your knickers in a twist, I suggest medication and playing a different game.

Again, this is ignoring results that aren't destroying the vehicles, but remember that I'm addressing the false assumption that has been brought up that vehicles are reduced to a flaming wreck the moment they hit the table when facing Nids.

Ork Rokkits. Well they come in swarms, which is a fact that's been overlooked. Every model in a unit that can take a launcher has a launcher, relying on quantity over quality to get results. Which entirely ignores the fact that the Deffkoptors are mobile enough to get into a position to shoot a vehicle at it's weakest facing. I'm sorry, but we cannot expect Tyranids to rely on the same tactic of quantity over quality when we do not have the quantity. Two Tyrants and 3 VC fexes is not quantity.

Living Ammunition. Er, when was inability to kill infantry at a range brought up by Tyranid players? Living Ammo doesn't affect vehicles, nor does low AP weapons, so bringing these up just further derails the conversation further away from the Tyranid stance that our "anti-tank" weapons are about as effective as a New Year's popper in 5th ed AND we have crappy BS aiming those poppers.

PhalanxLord
30-08-2009, 18:29
Thatis an uneffeicent use of resources (points wise) to field and that is why we have lots of Nidzilla armies because it's more resourcefull of points to win. That is why I said fluff wise, make one super strong unit, that as someone else said have a billion smaller units. With the current rules you can't have your billions of units.

I don't think having a BS of 4 will solve the problem. Cheaper cost units will help so we can field more units. Anthour problem I see, is if we do get BS 4, will those units be going up agaisnt tanks? What about other units that arnt tanks, would that be fluffy thento be shooting non tank units then? Wouldn't that make it more overpowered then? I can see if a Nid is going to have a BS of 4 or even 5 or 6 agaisnt tanks, then it shouldn't be able to shoot other units or have a BS of 2 when going agaisnt non tanks.

Just my opnion. I guess if I played some real games, with the real rules, then my mind will change. But again like I said or I ment and should have clearly said in my original post, why do people want BS of 4. I can see a uint or two being BS 4, but almost every unit of BS 4 seems insane to me. Imagine a brood of 32 gaunts with BS of 4, that is just crazy.

For the fluff stuff, nidzilla is just as fluffy as swarms. If you take a look at how invasions work, the initial invasion would be a swarm army and then when the opponents fight back too hard they go more zilla.

I think you are misinterpretting what people want BS4 for. We want it for zoanthropes right now, and possibly fexes (debatable) and maybe warriors (fexes and warriors after upgrades). No one wants BS4 base gaunts (though in 3rd you could upgrade them to be BS4 for 1pt). Zoans are worthless for anti-tank right now. They have less than a 50% chance of even getting far enough to roll against the enemy's AV.

Really though I don't see why we would have to get -ve BS against infantry. That doesn't really make sense. Anti-tank is good against tanks, but not really against infantry (not including fexes, but their BarbedStrangler is a blast weapon and the extra inch wouldn't matter too much).

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 18:54
I think you are misinterpretting what people want BS4 for. We want it for zoanthropes right now, and possibly fexes (debatable) and maybe warriors (fexes and warriors after upgrades). No one wants BS4 base gaunts (though in 3rd you could upgrade them to be BS4 for 1pt). Zoans are worthless for anti-tank right now. They have less than a 50% chance of even getting far enough to roll against the enemy's AV.


That is why I am asking. I might be misinterpertting what people want BS 4 for, so that is why I am asking. I guess in some different posts in other topics I was reading, some people wanted BS4, for all units, wich I couldn't understand why, so that is why I made this post.

I guess you summed it up nicely as others have as well. But I believe some people want BS4 so I would like to know thier reason of thinking for this.

Vepr
30-08-2009, 18:55
I don't expect nids to be good against heavy armor. In fact every army has to have a weakness and I am fine with heavy armor being a problem for nids. If we are better able to get into CC with our fexs etc in the next dex I will be happy. We don't have to have a range upgrade to dealing with armor as long as we can actually get into CC with one before round 4. Right now MC's other than a flying tyrant just get kited around because the big guys don't have fleet. If you want to take out a single tank right now you need to concentrate a sniper fex and a CC fex or flying tyrant on it. One MC to try and stun it from range and hopefully keep it from moving away the other to close and chop it up. Usually you are spending twice the points just for a chance deal with a one tank. Zoans regular blast is decent but the focused blast that requires a psych test on top of BS3 shooting and a 24 inch range makes it really tough to use especially when the opponent knows the Zoan is the only possible threat from range and concentrate half a table of firepower on them.

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 18:59
Ok anthour thought came to my mind now lol, watch out everyone lol. Ok say Tyranids are facing IG. If IG are fielding the 9 tanks they can field (can they field more?) Would Tyranids be screwed then? How would we be able to go against that?

massey
30-08-2009, 19:07
I played a game with my marines yesterday. In a 1000 point game, I brought 4 lascannons and 4 twin-linked lascannons. Razorbacks rock. For 75 points, I get a tank that can move 6" and shoot a twin-linked BS 4 lascannon at something 48" away. I also had two attack bikes with multimeltas. Nids have nothing comparable.

Now, that was a pretty shooty list. But marines don't dominate the world with their shooting. If someone gave nids some better anti-tank options, why would they suddenly be unbeatable?

There are a lot of changes I'd like to see to the nid codex. T5 warriors would mean you could remove ID protection from Synapse. The problem is, without that protection, warriors are worthless. Make them T5 and they're no longer instantly killed by krak missiles, and then you can rebalance from there.

Some like horde nids, some like godzilla. I like the warriors. I think of nids as a bunch of mid-sized monsters, supported by the occasional giant creature, and a swarm or two of little killy things. So if I was going to rewrite it, there would be a focus on making tyranid warriors worth taking. They need a higher base S and T, they need a higher BS. They need to be dangerous.

The only thing that is competitive right now is nidzilla, and that's because neither the warriors nor the gaunts are worth taking. Make these units better, and you won't have to worry about people taking 6 fexes all the time.

Striker_002
30-08-2009, 20:09
Despite the war crimes you've performed to the English language in your post, I'm going to be polite as I can.


Warp Blast. Requires a successful Psychic Test, a successful hit and then rolling a 4+ against the vehicles you gave as examples. Pretending that a Range of 18(24)" isn't a liability, a single Tyrant or Zoanthrope has a 22.9% chance to at least glance AV14 or a 15% chance to score a Penetrating hit on the same armour. If a 3.8% or 5% chance of destroying your AV14 vehicles is enough to get your knickers in a twist, I suggest medication and playing a different game.


I love when people use mathammer then and not compare it to anything else. Lets compare shall we? I'll use a 3 man lascannon team from imperial guard, a truly dedicated anti-tank unit, which is more expensive, and arguably less survivable then two warpblast zoanthropes(same cost) since they are vulnerable to instant kills and have no 2+ save, and they do not have the advantage of being able to move and shoot it's weapon(an advantage oft overlooked). Range isn't a problem, since with an effective 24 inch range, it's only one turn your zoanthropes can't shoot at an enemy castling his deployment zone.

3 BS3 lascannons=1.5 hits on average, and on a AV14 vehicle it will have a .25% chance of penetrating, and a .25% chance of glancing. considering the penetrate the tank has a .8% chance of being killed by the three lascannons.

And guess what? You can get 2 zoanthropes for the price of those 3 lascannons. Which means tyranid zoanthropes are already more efficient for there points at taking tanks out then a kitted out imperial guard anti-tank squad. They are fine as they are. It seems some nid players want the best of all worlds, with awesome close combat capabilities AND good shooting capabilities(which they just see as "minimally passable" of course)

BrotherMoses
30-08-2009, 20:15
idk why they would want to do this. If I had my way tyranids would have very very few shooting attacks at all. They're bugs for Emperor's sake! I would probably give them fewer shots but more of the small blast weapons. Something like that.

Vepr
30-08-2009, 20:30
I love when people use mathammer then and not compare it to anything else. Lets compare shall we? I'll use a 3 man lascannon team from imperial guard, a truly dedicated anti-tank unit, which is more expensive, and arguably less survivable then two warpblast zoanthropes(same cost) since they are vulnerable to instant kills and have no 2+ save, and they do not have the advantage of being able to move and shoot it's weapon(an advantage oft overlooked). Range isn't a problem, since with an effective 24 inch range, it's only one turn your zoanthropes can't shoot at an enemy castling his deployment zone.

3 BS3 lascannons=1.5 hits on average, and on a AV14 vehicle it will have a .25% chance of penetrating, and a .25% chance of glancing. considering the penetrate the tank has a .8% chance of being killed by the three lascannons.

And guess what? You can get 2 zoanthropes for the price of those 3 lascannons. Which means tyranid zoanthropes are already more efficient for there points at taking out a kitted out imperial guard anti-tank squad. They are fine as they are. It seems some nid players want the best of all worlds, with awesome close combat capabilities AND good shooting capabilities(which they just see as "minimally passable" of course)

Nice to know range is not a problem. :rolleyes: You are going to get 6 shots to our two that don't risk causing a wound due to a failed psych test.

You also have to look at the army as a whole Zoans are pretty much it for dedicated anti-tank for nids other than adding warp blast to a tyrant which tends to be a waste because you cannot upgrade their BS with warp blast. Orks might be the only other army that compares to nids for lack of anti armor but they also can get their squads across the board and into CC with vehicles the second round due to trucks and Waaagh so they can use power claws etc. If your las cannon crews do happen to get nuked in the first round chances are decent a guard player is going to have tanks with lascannons and or melta and multiple squads with melta weapons etc.

ReveredChaplainDrake
30-08-2009, 21:05
The Hive Mind, for all it's supposed "tactical brilliance", sees combat scenarios in an incredibly one-dimensional matter, roughly on par with Necrons in terms of critical thinking, battlefield economy, and decision making. The Hive Mind sees (off the top of my head) a Leman Russ squadron, thinks "hard" and fields "boom" because "boom > hard".

The problem is that Tyranid "boom" isn't better than anybody's "hard". I don't think BS4 is a proper fix, either. I'd take the Fleeting Carnifexes and Flying Tyrants with TLed CC attacks (albeit not as many attacks as the current Tyrant / Fex), but that's just me. A CC answer is more appropriate than a shooty answer because, hey, we've got Str9/10 Monstrous Creatures! The problems are (1) reaching the tank without getting pasted, and (2) hitting tanks that move over 6" in the previous turn. My Warptime Winged Nurgle-Prince and Skarbrand have no problems cracking heavy armor. What's their secret? Re-rolls to hit. (Note: not the same as Preferred Enemy; that only works on stuff with a WS.)

I'm in the "Tyranids are bio-engineered to be the best at everything" crowd, but for the sake of the other non-Tyranid armies that I also play, I have two caveats:
1) Tyranids have to pay to be the best at what they do, and...
2) Tyranids have a hard time dealing with stuff you don't equip them to handle.
A cookie goes to whoever said that Tyranids are ugly Eldar, because they are, or at least they should be. The difference is that Eldar can't do horde but can do AP-spam, while Tyranids should be able to go max-gribbles, but not the AP1-3 stuff.

Trogdor
30-08-2009, 21:42
Let's not forget that there are going to be 4 new racial types included in the new codex, if the rumours are reliable. It's quite possible that at least one of them will be the better than average BS nuke-beast nid players are hoping for, or if not some kind of Dactylis-type heavy artillery beast. Yes, I know that isn't much comfort to those having trouble winning right now but frankly, neither is arguing about a proposed stat change ;).

In the mean time, how viable a strategy is using more flying Warrior and Tyrant units? It doesn't affect their anti-armour capabilities but it may equip them better for surviving the mad rush into CC, targeting rear and side armour etc...

Vepr
30-08-2009, 21:48
Let's not forget that there are going to be 4 new racial types included in the new codex, if the rumours are reliable. It's quite possible that at least one of them will be the better than average BS nuke-beast nid players are hoping for, or if not some kind of Dactylis-type heavy artillery beast. Yes, I know that isn't much comfort to those having trouble winning right now but frankly, neither is arguing about a proposed stat change ;).

In the mean time, how viable a strategy is using more flying Warrior and Tyrant units? It doesn't affect their anti-armour capabilities but it may equip them better for surviving the mad rush into CC, targeting rear and side armour etc...

Flying tyrants are still beasts in CC or shooting with twin linked devs and can cause some real havoc for other armies. The winged warriors are a bit too squishy for their price and tend to go get shredded before being able to do much.

Trogdor
30-08-2009, 21:56
Flying tyrants are still beasts in CC or shooting with twin linked devs and can cause some real havoc for other armies. The winged warriors are a bit too squishy for their price and tend to go get shredded before being able to do much.

I see. I suppose there's no way of making flying warriors more survivable either? Oh well, it was just a thought.

HsojVvad
30-08-2009, 22:06
I see. I suppose there's no way of making flying warriors more survivable either? Oh well, it was just a thought.

But hopefully they made them cheaper, so if they die the loss won't be so much, and or a better armour save.

Vepr
30-08-2009, 22:14
I see. I suppose there's no way of making flying warriors more survivable either? Oh well, it was just a thought.

You can try to keep them to cover but with wings they cannot take extended carapace so they end up with a 5+ save. :eek: You can wound them with an angry look. :p

HK-47
30-08-2009, 22:45
Personally, I think every army should have at lest one range AT weapon. Nids read something that can pop tanks at range and cover the CC elements. I think the vemon cannon should be upgrade so that it can penetrate high AV vehicles. Biovore and spore mines also need reworking so that Nids have a really artillery piece outside of Barbed Strangler equip Fex's. Zoanthrope I feel should have a BS of 5 or 4, and be made to play like Tzeentch Daemons Princes, from the daemon codex. Tyrants should also automatically have BS of 4, Fexs should stay at 3.

The cc options should be made more accessible, most people who comment in the Nid tactica say CC fexs are to expansive and squishy. Other Nid close combat units have this problem. Prices need by be reexamined, and lowered in many cases. Survivable for CC fexs and be help by giving them a fleet upgrade, warriors and ravagers should get a better save, Lictors need to have their deployment change.

I also had the funny idea of giving Genestealers a way to got the old version of Rending, but that would be to broken and unfair.

Mr.Rotty
30-08-2009, 23:55
What I think will (hopefully) happen, is than rather than some god-given miracle to High AV vehicles, that will cause land raiders to turn to a refined paste, there would be some kind of little helping push, Not too much so its like "Mwuhahaha it destroys monoliths and land raiders like they were soggy paper, I'm going to take as many as possible!!!!"
Just a little help, like a new unit, to provide damage to mid AV, and be a target, until the big bad MC can get in and maul it.

PhalanxLord
31-08-2009, 00:30
I don't expect nids to be good against heavy armor. In fact every army has to have a weakness and I am fine with heavy armor being a problem for nids. If we are better able to get into CC with our fexs etc in the next dex I will be happy. We don't have to have a range upgrade to dealing with armor as long as we can actually get into CC with one before round 4. Right now MC's other than a flying tyrant just get kited around because the big guys don't have fleet. If you want to take out a single tank right now you need to concentrate a sniper fex and a CC fex or flying tyrant on it. One MC to try and stun it from range and hopefully keep it from moving away the other to close and chop it up. Usually you are spending twice the points just for a chance deal with a one tank. Zoans regular blast is decent but the focused blast that requires a psych test on top of BS3 shooting and a 24 inch range makes it really tough to use especially when the opponent knows the Zoan is the only possible threat from range and concentrate half a table of firepower on them.

The problem is that nids are bad against ALL armour. Even against AV10 generally we can only really use fexes. Warriors need deathspitters to have a chance to pen and they tend to be inaccurate. Devs are only strength 5 or 6 depending if they're on a tyrant or a fex and they have -1 on the damage charge. BS are the strongest weapon that can pen (zoans not included), but they're still woefully inaccurate. Meanwhile zoans have warp blast but with its short range.

Having to use CC against AV14 is fine, but we at the very least need some sort of dependable anti-transport weapon.


Ok anthour thought came to my mind now lol, watch out everyone lol. Ok say Tyranids are facing IG. If IG are fielding the 9 tanks they can field (can they field more?) Would Tyranids be screwed then? How would we be able to go against that?

We would be screwed. We could maybe stun one or two a turn but thats it. The other 7 or 8 would manage to kill a couple of fexes each turn and finish off the game really quickly. We could use stealers, but at 20pts each for the best kind they're still HB bait and even if they get lucky and destroy one tank the others could turn around and blow them up with battlecannons.


I love when people use mathammer then and not compare it to anything else. Lets compare shall we? I'll use a 3 man lascannon team from imperial guard, a truly dedicated anti-tank unit, which is more expensive, and arguably less survivable then two warpblast zoanthropes(same cost) since they are vulnerable to instant kills and have no 2+ save, and they do not have the advantage of being able to move and shoot it's weapon(an advantage oft overlooked). Range isn't a problem, since with an effective 24 inch range, it's only one turn your zoanthropes can't shoot at an enemy castling his deployment zone.

3 BS3 lascannons=1.5 hits on average, and on a AV14 vehicle it will have a .25% chance of penetrating, and a .25% chance of glancing. considering the penetrate the tank has a .8% chance of being killed by the three lascannons.

And guess what? You can get 2 zoanthropes for the price of those 3 lascannons. Which means tyranid zoanthropes are already more efficient for there points at taking tanks out then a kitted out imperial guard anti-tank squad. They are fine as they are. It seems some nid players want the best of all worlds, with awesome close combat capabilities AND good shooting capabilities(which they just see as "minimally passable" of course)

24" isn't much. Most people have their tanks deployed a bit back against nids to prevent 2nd turn charges by MCs against them and zoans tend to be deployed a bit back behind the gaunts so they can get a cover save. They tend to be out of range until turn 3 I find (turn 2 if the enemy tries to move towards you) and it still requires 3 to do anything.

You compare them to guard HWTs. HWTs are troops (and so scoring), have over 2.5x the range (which has been very significant in many games I've played), and can be targetted by orders (which makes those lascannons suddenly a much larger threat). They also don't have a chance to hurt themselves on a bad roll (believe me, it happens more than you'd think). You can also take a lot of HWTs but only ever a total of 3 zoanthropes and killing HWTs won't cause your other troops to become stupid. Not only that but while zoans have less than a 50% chance of hurting an MC those HWTs will reliably put on a wound or two each turn. Not only that but as guard you still have access to other effective anti-tank choices, such as Russes and you can always take a unit of vets with 3 meltaguns for a mere 100pts.


The Hive Mind, for all it's supposed "tactical brilliance", sees combat scenarios in an incredibly one-dimensional matter, roughly on par with Necrons in terms of critical thinking, battlefield economy, and decision making. The Hive Mind sees (off the top of my head) a Leman Russ squadron, thinks "hard" and fields "boom" because "boom > hard".

The problem is that Tyranid "boom" isn't better than anybody's "hard". I don't think BS4 is a proper fix, either. I'd take the Fleeting Carnifexes and Flying Tyrants with TLed CC attacks (albeit not as many attacks as the current Tyrant / Fex), but that's just me. A CC answer is more appropriate than a shooty answer because, hey, we've got Str9/10 Monstrous Creatures! The problems are (1) reaching the tank without getting pasted, and (2) hitting tanks that move over 6" in the previous turn. My Warptime Winged Nurgle-Prince and Skarbrand have no problems cracking heavy armor. What's their secret? Re-rolls to hit. (Note: not the same as Preferred Enemy; that only works on stuff with a WS.)

I'm in the "Tyranids are bio-engineered to be the best at everything" crowd, but for the sake of the other non-Tyranid armies that I also play, I have two caveats:
1) Tyranids have to pay to be the best at what they do, and...
2) Tyranids have a hard time dealing with stuff you don't equip them to handle.
A cookie goes to whoever said that Tyranids are ugly Eldar, because they are, or at least they should be. The difference is that Eldar can't do horde but can do AP-spam, while Tyranids should be able to go max-gribbles, but not the AP1-3 stuff.

I dislike the idea of focusing out anti-tank on CC. You mentioned Skarbrand and a winged DP. Both have invulnerable saves, both can start close to the enemies turn 1, and both have something that helps them to assault faster. Not only that but nids have a hell of a time trying to get into CC with things such as Eldar falcons and tanks where the enemy is willing to move them back. With transports by the time you can engage them in CC they've generally already done their damage.

Vaktathi
31-08-2009, 00:42
The only units I see as really needing to have BS4 in a Tyranid army are Zoanthroapes. Other than that the big guys can twin link nearly everything already or really should be redesigned to simply be brutal CC monsters. I'd much rather see Carnifex's be smashing painmountains than MC shooting platforms, or Warriors that tear apart opponents with ease and get stuck in quickly rather than Crisis suit equivalents. The idea of Nids as a shooting army has always been very odd to me. Some shooting sure, but really, they don't need BS4 (as in, better than trained and well equipped professional soldiers) and shouldn't be focusing on shooting. They should be the CC army to scare Orks.

Reinholt
31-08-2009, 01:34
More importantly:

Why not just make the Biovore, which is already a living artillery piece, actually not suck and be useful as heavy-duty anti-tank?

This kills a lot of birds with one stone. Or spore mine. Whatever.

Logan_uc
31-08-2009, 04:28
Logan,

You should read the nid codex properly and see the point you adressed.

1. venomcannon can only glance a vehicle period, no blowing up vehicles with it.
2. the focussed warpblast has poor range and can miss at least half the time it's fired, also giving it's short range it won't hit a vehicle untill the 3rd turn.
3. living ammo does nothing against vehicles.

No one is asking for over-powered options, you should read.
Nids right now have very little to deal with the heavy mech armies.

1. sorry dident see it oops

2. meltas are 12 range and they are good just need to use it well ( i play a guy that makes very good use of warp blast)

3. i now but gives extra dakka (just for those that think they are bad shoots)

if you look in this tread i say they need a cost reduction and anti tank unit not bigger bs.
but in my opinion the anti tank should be under powered... nids need the weekness, every army has one.

the point is every body complains that is army needs a bit more its normal (way in hell can i no longer infiltrait all my army of plague marines:cries:) but if they had watt they want the game wouldnt be any fun.

ReveredChaplainDrake
31-08-2009, 04:29
I dislike the idea of focusing out anti-tank on CC. You mentioned Skarbrand and a winged DP. Both have invulnerable saves, both can start close to the enemies turn 1, and both have something that helps them to assault faster. Not only that but nids have a hell of a time trying to get into CC with things such as Eldar falcons and tanks where the enemy is willing to move them back. With transports by the time you can engage them in CC they've generally already done their damage.
When I mentioned the winged DP, I meant the CSM DP, hence Warptime. Also, I was pitching thoughts that I would be happy with, if the next codex had them. I think it'd be much more "Tyranid" if our Monsters to actually handle tanks in Assault. (I played Tyranids before they started out-shooting Tau.) Shooting would be nice, but an assault answer is what I'd prefer to use, given that we actually get such an option next Codex. I have faith. Remember, Shoota Boyz, Dire Avengers, TH/SS Terminators, and Sanctioned Psykers didn't used to be "optimal" either. How'd those all work out? ;)

Logan_uc
31-08-2009, 04:45
Despite the war crimes you've performed to the English language in your post, I'm going to be polite as I can.

Epa desculpa ter dado erros e isso ser um crime de guerra, mas muito obrigado por um ser tão triste como tu ter tempo para reponder e ja agora tenho orgulho por não ser anglo saxonico meu badamerda.

did you understand... no translate it. im not english, a dunb american, canadian or australian so english isnt my 1st language, its normal that i give so errors if im typing in a hurry, still i see people that mka the same "crime" in warseer.

now for the rest didnt see the glancing only in venom cannon, living amo makes nids good shoots, didnt say it was to blow up tanks. zoas make good av hunter, i have seen it many times.

ReveredChaplainDrake
31-08-2009, 04:53
now for the rest didnt see the glancing only in venom cannon
I've heard that, when codecies get translated, some rules get "confused".

I'll remember to bring my Venom Cannons to the next game of Hispanic 40k I play.

PhalanxLord
31-08-2009, 06:06
When I mentioned the winged DP, I meant the CSM DP, hence Warptime. Also, I was pitching thoughts that I would be happy with, if the next codex had them. I think it'd be much more "Tyranid" if our Monsters to actually handle tanks in Assault. (I played Tyranids before they started out-shooting Tau.) Shooting would be nice, but an assault answer is what I'd prefer to use, given that we actually get such an option next Codex. I have faith. Remember, Shoota Boyz, Dire Avengers, TH/SS Terminators, and Sanctioned Psykers didn't used to be "optimal" either. How'd those all work out? ;)

I knew it was a CSM DP (but I seem to have forgotten that when I started writing-> too caught up in the awesomeness of warptime, deepstriking, inv saves, and Skarbrand to realize it).

Personally I would love to see CC nids become viable against mech. I like to play with 3 CCfexes as my heavies and no elite fexes. Last time I played mech I got slaughtered because I couldn't deal with the vehicles (which killed off every MC[3 T7 fexes and 2 tyrants, one with 2 tyrant guard] by turn 3, albiet my opponent did get pretty damn good rolls) and my anti-infantry had nothing to shoot at. IMHO ccfexes need a lot more than just re-rolls in order do well-> they need to move faster, but then that causes other balance issues. Anyways, I want to get a rematch with the mech d00d who destroyed my Crusherfex army and try to face him with my more shooty army (it uses 3 zoans and 2 sniperfexes-> I had managed to defeat mechdar with it just before I played the mechwolves with my Crusherfex army).

Well of course non-optimal choices can quickly become optimal with a new book, I still can't see CC fexes becoming optimal due to what I mentioned before: They can't move fast enough right now to deal with mech (and the hitting on 6's is a problem), but if you speed them up then they become much more powerful against infantry. Unless they do something bat$$$$ crazy like giving them a 2d6 run move and fleet I can't see them being our answer to enemy armour.

Finn
31-08-2009, 08:10
And gargoyles should have some grenade equivalent

Bioplasma is already sort of grenade equivalent, at least in 5th and attacking rear armor. I could see it becoming krak grenades, though I would miss the extra attack it currently gives.


Overall, I would be sad to see the extreme variations possible in the codex right now go. Being able to upgrade almost any stat off of a base "economy model" is nice. That being said, I'm betting that when these options go they'll simply become standard along with a slight decrease in price... Things like +BS on Warriors (standard as 3 with no upgrade available), flesh hooks on stealers and hormies, etc. I hope some of the options stay, but I'd be happy with a codex where every unit is simply viable.

Right now, Biovores are actually decent antitank if you're not playing kill points. Otherwise you have to resort to 'thropes trying to hit (after passing a test), stranglers on fexes, and the odd venom cannon/deathspitter hit. After that, you have to kill them in CC - if you can get there. Outflanking stealers are good for this, but approximately 33% fail rate (coming in on the opposite side you need them) means unreliability. Winged tyrants are also good, but you need the tyrant for your synapse net and risking him so far in front of your army is not always the smartest. Charging something is likely to get him killed - and sometimes it's worth it, but sometimes it's not. And with the 3 attacks, taking double devourers on him is too tempting.

BS 4 standard on a Tyrant I can see, especially if the upgrade option goes away. I can also see BS 5...but I wouldn't expect it.

Also of note, a maximum of 3 'thrope shots a turn (and one from the tyrant if you ever give him that power...) is too little. Since it's the only high strength weapon that can penetrate (aside from a strangler on a fex or a VC against an open vehicle), it makes anti-psychic things hurt that much more - hoods and runes, to be specific. To address the cross-army balance point that was brought up back on the first page with basic Guard squads being able to handle all but 3 tanks in Melee: the Guard's plethora of lascannons/missile launchers/whatever-else aren't stopped by mechanics such as these. The lack of ranged anti-tank in a game that's become mostly about the shooting has really hurt the Nids.

Then again, balancing between melee and shooting has always been tricky...give the melee army too much and once the survivors get to combat they'll eat the other army alive, give the shooting army too much and the melee army never makes it there (3rd ed. Orks, anyone?). Luckily for Nids, they can currently adjust enough to compensate but it kind of pigeon-holes us into certain list choices if we're attending a tournament. And that's where the heart of the matter lies.

Marrak
31-08-2009, 09:11
Bioplasma is already sort of grenade equivalent, at least in 5th and attacking rear armor. I could see it becoming krak grenades, though I would miss the extra attack it currently gives.


Overall, I would be sad to see the extreme variations possible in the codex right now go. Being able to upgrade almost any stat off of a base "economy model" is nice. That being said, I'm betting that when these options go they'll simply become standard along with a slight decrease in price... Things like +BS on Warriors (standard as 3 with no upgrade available), flesh hooks on stealers and hormies, etc. I hope some of the options stay, but I'd be happy with a codex where every unit is simply viable.

Right now, Biovores are actually decent antitank if you're not playing kill points. Otherwise you have to resort to 'thropes trying to hit (after passing a test), stranglers on fexes, and the odd venom cannon/deathspitter hit. After that, you have to kill them in CC - if you can get there. Outflanking stealers are good for this, but approximately 33% fail rate (coming in on the opposite side you need them) means unreliability. Winged tyrants are also good, but you need the tyrant for your synapse net and risking him so far in front of your army is not always the smartest. Charging something is likely to get him killed - and sometimes it's worth it, but sometimes it's not. And with the 3 attacks, taking double devourers on him is too tempting.

BS 4 standard on a Tyrant I can see, especially if the upgrade option goes away. I can also see BS 5...but I wouldn't expect it.

Also of note, a maximum of 3 'thrope shots a turn (and one from the tyrant if you ever give him that power...) is too little. Since it's the only high strength weapon that can penetrate (aside from a strangler on a fex or a VC against an open vehicle), it makes anti-psychic things hurt that much more - hoods and runes, to be specific. To address the cross-army balance point that was brought up back on the first page with basic Guard squads being able to handle all but 3 tanks in Melee: the Guard's plethora of lascannons/missile launchers/whatever-else aren't stopped by mechanics such as these. The lack of ranged anti-tank in a game that's become mostly about the shooting has really hurt the Nids.

Then again, balancing between melee and shooting has always been tricky...give the melee army too much and once the survivors get to combat they'll eat the other army alive, give the shooting army too much and the melee army never makes it there (3rd ed. Orks, anyone?). Luckily for Nids, they can currently adjust enough to compensate but it kind of pigeon-holes us into certain list choices if we're attending a tournament. And that's where the heart of the matter lies.

Our grenade equivolents, IMO, are going to be Flesh hooks for Offensive and Toxic Miasma for defensive. Bio-plasma has suffered a horrid fate, but currently the extra attack, while nice, does very little to change a combat resolution (and actually was a liability in 4th). Frankly I'd like to see an option for the old long-range plasma blast it used to be, but that's purely wishlisting on my part.

Now then, Biovores have gotten a bad rap... but comparing them to the other heavy support options then they're that much worse, they simply do not compete vs. Zoanthropes or Fexes. Even when used in 5th, anything you want the biovore to do is done better by something else. Templates to kill troops? Zoanthropes, and at ap 3 to boot. Want to damage some tanks? Carnifex will usually keep a tank busy if not wreck some of their abilities and movement. Biovores frankly need their old bio-cannon blast back, even if it was only chapter approved at the time.

BS 5 on a Tyrant... um... no. That'd be just a little too rediculous; I already feel a little dirty for what my Tyrant's capable of as he currently stands. :)

I'm with you on the limited number thing... honestly it's time to let us start taking more than one unit of Zoanthropes/Biovores/Lictors. After 3 Hive Fleets I'm pretty sure they're not as uncommon as before.

Balance between range/melee is obviously a concern the developers have, and for good reason. I think they nailed most of nid shooting; it just needs tweak here and there, not an overhaul. Our CC, sadly, has fallen behind and needs a revamp. Not a major one, but definitely more than a new coat of paint.

Finn
31-08-2009, 09:28
Our grenade equivolents, IMO, are going to be Flesh hooks for Offensive and Toxic Miasma for defensive. Bio-plasma has suffered a horrid fate, but currently the extra attack, while nice, does very little to change a combat resolution (and actually was a liability in 4th). Frankly I'd like to see an option for the old long-range plasma blast it used to be, but that's purely wishlisting on my part.

Now then, Biovores have gotten a bad rap... but comparing them to the other heavy support options then they're that much worse, they simply do not compete vs. Zoanthropes or Fexes. Even when used in 5th, anything you want the biovore to do is done better by something else. Templates to kill troops? Zoanthropes, and at ap 3 to boot. Want to damage some tanks? Carnifex will usually keep a tank busy if not wreck some of their abilities and movement. Biovores frankly need their old bio-cannon blast back, even if it was only chapter approved at the time.

BS 5 on a Tyrant... um... no. That'd be just a little too rediculous; I already feel a little dirty for what my Tyrant's capable of as he currently stands. :)

I'm with you on the limited number thing... honestly it's time to let us start taking more than one unit of Zoanthropes/Biovores/Lictors. After 3 Hive Fleets I'm pretty sure they're not as uncommon as before.

Balance between range/melee is obviously a concern the developers have, and for good reason. I think they nailed most of nid shooting; it just needs tweak here and there, not an overhaul. Our CC, sadly, has fallen behind and needs a revamp. Not a major one, but definitely more than a new coat of paint.

Mostly agreed. Flesh hooks are already offensive grenades, and I can see Miasma becoming defensive grenades but I like the variety it currently adds. What about Lash Whips? I mean right now they're better than grenades, but you never know about the future.

I also agree that BS5 currently would be a little much on the Tyrant, the entry is basically fine as-is (I wouldn't trade his entry for anything else :p)...but in the new 'dex, who's to say the weapons are going to remain the same?

I still think Biovores are slightly underestimated. First off, they cost less than a fex (about the same as a thrope I suppose, slightly less if you give the thrope synapse - and I do). Furthermore, the bio-acid mines have a set 2d6+3 value for penetration so if the hole of your template scatters off, you're still going to hit the vehicle at normal effectiveness - increased effectiveness if you happened to land behind the thing, odd as it seems. 2-3 chances at that, hitting on side armor, is nothing to be laughed at. You stand a decent shot at getting a result on most vehicles - I don't care to work out the math at the moment, but it can't be worse than S7 or S8 hitting the thing and it might even be better. Being limited to 3 does suck, but to me it's mostly because they no longer deploy independently. 3 chances at getting that blast to hit spot on would be nice, and I doubt that even with that and a reverse ruling stating that fired mines aren't kill points they would be used in a competitive setting.

I would a love a short-range (12-18") "bioplasma" attack. Perhaps similar to the current Inferno Cannon, and yes I'm drawing inspiration here from the Screamer-Killer Brood datasheet... Something high strength with little or no AP and a flame template.

S8 AP- perhaps? S7 AP5/6? Something of the sort. I know it's not long-ranged, but with deployment these days range longer than 36" isn't all that necessary. Especially if something like this was on an assault beastie (and you know, being bioplasma this wouldn't take up the weapon biomorph slots, leaving you capable of taking double talons still), you'd be moving towards the enemy anyway. Very Nid-like, IMO.

Ironfather0
31-08-2009, 11:31
but in my opinion the anti tank should be under powered... nids need the weekness, every army has one.
.

Yes every army has, and needs a weaknesss but having unreliable anti-tank is both unfair and and unbalanced weakness considering how much more survivable vehciles have become and with the heavy ammount of mech lists. I'm all for giving tyrant and zoie bs 4. also, they should make the venom cannon better by just removing glancing only and maybe make it ap - isntead so its -1 against vehicles. I'm not say nids need AS much anti-tank shooting as others but we need ways to take vehicles at range especiall when we can pretty much be out ran by tanks.

yabbadabba
31-08-2009, 12:16
Sorry, I haven't seen any justification for BS4 yet. 'Nids always have been a horde, CC based army and I can't see any reason to change that.

massey
31-08-2009, 13:33
I love when people use mathammer then and not compare it to anything else. Lets compare shall we? I'll use a 3 man lascannon team from imperial guard, a truly dedicated anti-tank unit, which is more expensive, and arguably less survivable then two warpblast zoanthropes(same cost) since they are vulnerable to instant kills and have no 2+ save, and they do not have the advantage of being able to move and shoot it's weapon(an advantage oft overlooked). Range isn't a problem, since with an effective 24 inch range, it's only one turn your zoanthropes can't shoot at an enemy castling his deployment zone.

3 BS3 lascannons=1.5 hits on average, and on a AV14 vehicle it will have a .25% chance of penetrating, and a .25% chance of glancing. considering the penetrate the tank has a .8% chance of being killed by the three lascannons.

And guess what? You can get 2 zoanthropes for the price of those 3 lascannons. Which means tyranid zoanthropes are already more efficient for there points at taking tanks out then a kitted out imperial guard anti-tank squad. They are fine as they are. It seems some nid players want the best of all worlds, with awesome close combat capabilities AND good shooting capabilities(which they just see as "minimally passable" of course)

I love it when people use mathhammer and then get it wrong.

First, you're guilty of the exact same thing you accuse others of doing. Then you got your math wrong. You compare zoanthropes to heavy weapon teams. Yes, 3 thropes are about 30 points cheaper than a 3 lascannon heavy weapon squad. The problems, however, are numerous.

First, you can only ever have 3 zoanthropes. Points aren't really an issue any more, because no matter how big the game is, you can only have 3. Compare to IG, which can have 30 lascannon heavy weapon teams of 3 lascannons each (if you have the points, of course). 90 lascannons versus 3 zoanthropes. Second, the range is a critical factor. It's critical because the zoanthropes have to move up to 18" away from the enemy. That's a bad range, because it puts them in counter-assault range for any sort of dedicated assault troops, and it puts them in move and rapid fire range. This means you're only ever likely to get off one shot with the zoanthrope, because after that one shot you'll be dead. IG teams, on the other hand, sit back at 48" and just shoot. That's out of range of all but the most dedicated of anti-tank weapons.

Marshal Sinclair
31-08-2009, 13:42
Sorry, I haven't seen any justification for BS4 yet. 'Nids always have been a horde, CC based army and I can't see any reason to change that.

BS4 on Tyrants and Zoanthropes, then BS3 on Carnifexes (with the option to upgrade to 4) will stop them being a combat army?

megatrons2nd
31-08-2009, 16:16
If Nids get BS4 My Tau, who train nearly from birth and have lots'o tech on par if not better than marine tech, should get BS4 also. Tau close combat is a joke and the BS of three doesn't help much. I wouldn't mind a unit or an expensive upgrade on a nid to up to BS4, but giving it to non-brain bugs would result in unbalancing other armies as well.

yabbadabba
31-08-2009, 16:28
BS4 on Tyrants and Zoanthropes, then BS3 on Carnifexes (with the option to upgrade to 4) will stop them being a combat army?
No, but keeping the BS as it is keeps people as close to that theme as possible.

Striker_002
31-08-2009, 17:04
I love it when people use mathhammer and then get it wrong.

First, you're guilty of the exact same thing you accuse others of doing. Then you got your math wrong. You compare zoanthropes to heavy weapon teams. Yes, 3 thropes are about 30 points cheaper than a 3 lascannon heavy weapon squad. The problems, however, are numerous.

First, you can only ever have 3 zoanthropes. Points aren't really an issue any more, because no matter how big the game is, you can only have 3. Compare to IG, which can have 30 lascannon heavy weapon teams of 3 lascannons each (if you have the points, of course). 90 lascannons versus 3 zoanthropes. Second, the range is a critical factor. It's critical because the zoanthropes have to move up to 18" away from the enemy. That's a bad range, because it puts them in counter-assault range for any sort of dedicated assault troops, and it puts them in move and rapid fire range. This means you're only ever likely to get off one shot with the zoanthrope, because after that one shot you'll be dead. IG teams, on the other hand, sit back at 48" and just shoot. That's out of range of all but the most dedicated of anti-tank weapons.


To correct, two zoanthropes are about equal points cost to a 3 lascannon heavy weapons squad, and again, more effective at anti-tank(almost double as effective). However, your whole point of "90 lascannons vs 3 zoanthropes" is plain ridiculous, as that can never be accomplished in a normal game. That limit does not effectively...limit. The most anti-tank teams I ever saw an imperial guard player take is two, the rest of the times one, if any. In "normal" games of 1000-1700 points you do not have theneed to take more then 3 zoantrhopes, as that will be ample anti-tank for the majority of armies out there, or at least enough to till your monsterous creatures/genestealers rip apart the tanks in combat. 18 range is not a safety liability considering you will often have a meatshield squad in front of the zoanthrope(whos going to counter assault the zoanthrope now?). Plus, do heavy assault armies tend to be the ones with heavy tank power? For the most part, no.) If you want your nids to be able to blast tanks away with high strength, low AP weaponry that is in range from turn one, then you are playing the wrong army.

Vepr
31-08-2009, 17:12
I play nids and personally I would keep it as is other than the option for Zoans to upgrade to BS4 like Tyrants and drop the limitation with warp blast and the BS upgrade. I would also keep fexs at BS2 with a possibility to upgrade to BS3. I would rather see Carnifex bet an upgrade to their base CC abilities.

Ironfather0
31-08-2009, 17:15
If Nids get BS4 My Tau, who train nearly from birth and have lots'o tech on par if not better than marine tech, should get BS4 also. Tau close combat is a joke and the BS of three doesn't help much. I wouldn't mind a unit or an expensive upgrade on a nid to up to BS4, but giving it to non-brain bugs would result in unbalancing other armies as well.

thats what most people are referring to, brain bugs ie tyrant and zoie

Vepr
31-08-2009, 17:28
To correct, two zoanthropes are about equal points cost to a 3 lascannon heavy weapons squad, and again, more effective at anti-tank(almost double as effective). However, your whole point of "90 lascannons vs 3 zoanthropes" is plain ridiculous, as that can never be accomplished in a normal game. That limit does not effectively...limit. The most anti-tank teams I ever saw an imperial guard player take is two, the rest of the times one, if any. In "normal" games of 1000-1700 points you do not have theneed to take more then 3 zoantrhopes, as that will be ample anti-tank for the majority of armies out there, or at least enough to till your monsterous creatures/genestealers rip apart the tanks in combat. 18 range is not a safety liability considering you will often have a meatshield squad in front of the zoanthrope(whos going to counter assault the zoanthrope now?). Plus, do heavy assault armies tend to be the ones with heavy tank power? For the most part, no.) If you want your nids to be able to blast tanks away with high strength, low AP weaponry that is in range from turn one, then you are playing the wrong army.

As I said before though those 3 IG lascannons are going to get 6 shots for the Zoans 2 initially and if that lascannon squad is taken out the IG has multiple other long, medium and short range anti-tank options in most lists from tanks to meltas etc. If the Zoans get killed the best nids can hope for is to stun and shake a tank while CC options close in with a sniper fex. Also you have to factor in that the IG units do not risk a wound with a psych test every time they shoot something.

PhalanxLord
31-08-2009, 17:40
No, but keeping the BS as it is keeps people as close to that theme as possible.

Zoans are supposed to be shooty anyways (but fail horribly at it due to their BS3) and tyrants already have BS4 with an upgrade. I wouldn't mind keeping fexes as is, but Zoans at the very least need a BS upgrade.

ReveredChaplainDrake
31-08-2009, 18:50
To correct, two zoanthropes are about equal points cost to a 3 lascannon heavy weapons squad, and again, more effective at anti-tank(almost double as effective).
The dirty secret about IG anti-tank is Vets or Stormtroopers w/ Meltaguns (plus Valkyrie transports), due to AP1 and 2d6 AP at short range. Using Lascannons is pretty much reserved for killing our Carnifexes and Tyrants, one of the many reasons why CC isn't an effective way to handle tanks at the moment.


In "normal" games of 1000-1700 points you do not have theneed to take more then 3 zoantrhopes, as that will be ample anti-tank for the majority of armies out there, or at least enough to till your monsterous creatures/genestealers rip apart the tanks in combat.
If you actually let Tyranid MCs and Stealers rip apart your tanks in CC, that means you either have so many tanks that it's irrelevant, or you messed up by not moving 6.00001" last turn.


18 range is not a safety liability considering you will often have a meatshield squad in front of the zoanthrope(whos going to counter assault the zoanthrope now?).
Simple solution: shoot a hole in the 8-gaunt brood, then charge both the Gaunts and the 'Thrope in the same assault. If anything, the meatshield is the liability, thanks to Combat Res.


Plus, do heavy assault armies tend to be the ones with heavy tank power? For the most part, no.)
Sadly, Tyranids are not a heavy assault army. If we could be, we would, trust me. Last time we were at least close to being a "heavy assault army", people kept complaining that our Genestealers were ripping open their Land Raiders, thus the nerf. So what's the point? Complain until the Nids don't have any competitive builds left?

An even better comparison to Zoanthropes is Obliterators. Comparable costs, dual-role, 2 wounds, great armor, mentionable IV, massive competition for the precious Heavy Support FOC slot, and anti-tank specialists for a (quite capable) heavy assault army. I use Oblits with my Night Lords, but if I want tanks dead, I deepstrike behind the tank and give it a good ol' fashioned TLed Meltagun enema. Even then, I've started taking 2 units of 2, just to make sure, or to handle more tanks.


If you want your nids to be able to blast tanks away with high strength, low AP weaponry that is in range from turn one, then you are playing the wrong army.
Y'know what? Since Tyranids mostly have problems with Transport vehicles hiding the squishy cargo from our living ammo guns, how about boosting Zoanthrope BS to 4, reducing the Warp Blast strength to 8, and give it the Lance rule? It'd be rather poetic, from a game design perspective, as Zoanthropes have Eldar DNA, so if they had Eldar-esque rules, they would actually feel more like a conquered enemy species, rather than a wimpy Terminator.

HsojVvad
31-08-2009, 20:28
More importantly:

Why not just make the Biovore, which is already a living artillery piece, actually not suck and be useful as heavy-duty anti-tank?

This kills a lot of birds with one stone. Or spore mine. Whatever.

Or spore mine. LMFAO, oh I love that.

I can't understand why the Biover wasn't used as an anti-tank buster. Be it long range or in CC. Just look at those huge bashing arms it has.

kazkal
31-08-2009, 22:37
Look, you can give all the fluff reasons on the planet for giving your 'nids BS4, but in the end one thing comes up trumps: game balance. If you go by the fluff the guard should bring 1000 men to a 1500pt game and a lone marine should take all 1000 of those guardsmen down with only a flamer and some ingenuity. That marine and all his buddies would then get their arses kicked by the necrons. See where I'm going here? I'm not saying that the 'nids don't need a buff, but universal BS4 is not the way to go. I like the ideas about making the MCs harder to target and the like: maybe giving more units fleet could work nicely too.

Poly

:| Would hate for them to become harder to hit playing my tau rofl...4 Wounds 2+ armor save is pretty nice simply need high str weapon that can penetrate vs glance.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-09-2009, 07:13
organic killing machine genetically designed from the ground up to be the perfect warriors?

Gaunts? The perfect killing machines? :wtf:


Marines who are only slightly altered regular joes

Ugh.


As to BS4... Why should they not? If I am paying 200 points for a Carnifex, why can't I make it hit on a 3+?

Because it's a MC capable of, with proper upgrades, putting out a stupid amount of dakka as is?


Nids had fantastic shooting in 2nd edition. There's no reason they couldn't be that good again. Those who say that nids shouldn't be good at shooting don't know anything about nids.

Reason they can't be that good again: game balance.


Tyranids are genetically engineered to do whatever it is that they do. So if you've got a nid who is designed for HTH, he should be awesome at HTH. If you have a nid who is designed for shooting, he should be awesome at shooting. If you have a nid who is designed to be a bullet magnet for a larger creature, etc., etc., etc. This idea that somehow it's not "fluffy" for a tyranid to know how to shoot a gun is just stupid. Nids have had good shooting since the very beginning.

And Necrons should technorape everyone in every game. And Space Marines should be able to kill every model on the board via exploding Dreadnought. And Eldar should kill you so fast you are dead before you roll the die to determine first turn. And Dark Eldar should kill you or kidnap and rape you repeatedly before you set down your army's carrying case.

Oh wait. None of that would make a fun game.


Personally, I wouldn't mind if they eliminated a Zoanthropes' BS entirely. Make it all based upon a psychic test. Made my test, boom you're hit.

Every other psyker has to roll to hit. Except with Lash, but there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth about that for obvious reasons.


so english isnt my 1st language, its normal that i give so errors if im typing in a hurry, still i see people that mka the same "crime" in warseer.

The rules (http://www.warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_new_posting_guidelines) don't care about your nationality, you still should take the time to spellcheck and such. If you're going to rape my language when you post... just don't. You don't see me trying to type in rusty Spanish I learned three years ago. Oh and:


a dunb american

I know that Americans, for one reason or another, have become acceptable targets (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptablePoliticalTargets) for flaming based on stereotypes, prejudice, and limited experiences applied as broad generalizations to encompass a whole nationality, but that doesn't make it right. You don't see me calling out all the Brits here as having bad teeth, comparing every Aussie to the late Mr. Irwin, or calling any Frenchman a cheese-eating surrender monkey, do you? So please, posters of Warseer, there's no need to take every opportunity in every post to spit on my country.


If Nids get BS4 My Tau, who train nearly from birth and have lots'o tech on par if not better than marine tech, should get BS4 also. Tau close combat is a joke and the BS of three doesn't help much. I wouldn't mind a unit or an expensive upgrade on a nid to up to BS4, but giving it to non-brain bugs would result in unbalancing other armies as well.

Yeah, there's no reason for your S5-basic-weapon-carrying-Troops to have BS4 either.

I advocate BS4 upgrades for Zoanthropes, Warriors, and Tyrants. That's it.

Dust King
01-09-2009, 07:45
And Dark Eldar should kill you or kidnap and rape you repeatedly before you set down your army's carrying case.

Oh wait. None of that would make a fun game.

Actually that is a great idea! Is it too late to put in some suggestions for the dark eldar codex;)


On topic:
Personally I think it would be a good idea to split carinfexes into two entries, the assault fex and the dakka fex. Make the assault fex a tough close combat beast (like the current one) and the dakka fex softer, slower but more shootey, toss in a decent anti armour weapon and better BS and the problem is solved (and the list is a bit more interesting as a bonus)

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-09-2009, 08:18
Actually that is a great idea! Is it too late to put in some suggestions for the dark eldar codex;)

Only if I get to play them against you. :p

Dust King
01-09-2009, 08:34
Only if I get to play them against you. :p

Well at least buy me dinner first;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-09-2009, 08:39
Alright, but I ain't rich, no movies, sorry.

Marrak
01-09-2009, 10:55
No, but keeping the BS as it is keeps people as close to that theme as possible.

I hate to disagree with you, but the prevalent build for most Tyranid armies involve making their MCs as shooty as possible, and keeping troops to genestealers or gaunts, pending on your flavor.

We avoid CC like the plague, because while our MCs run forward we watch tanks drive circles around them while they're whittled down over several turns.

The dakka/sniper builds for MCs are heavily used because the shooting is far more reliable than the CC.

As has been said, I'd love to make a Tyranid list solely built around melee. But the list doesn't support it, and frankly it never has. Tyranids have always had a great deal of shooting available to them, and the Tyrant has always had BS 4 or the option; what we're asking for is the ability to buff up the one unit that completely relies on shooting, is supposed to be our main tank-buster, and doesn't do that even remotely effectively. Not the Carnifex (sorry for those who support this, but it'd be a little too good that way, or our guns would need to suffer a major hit), maybe the warriors (who, for some reason, are worse shots naturally then raveners), and definitely not the gaunts (wings or otherwise).

That leaves the list for who should get BS 4 at this:
Tyrant - already has it
Zoanthrope - yes
Warriors - maybe

Right now we're not weak vs. mech lists... we're completely hamstrung by them, and have very few tools to match up against it, and those tools are unreliable at best, ineffective at worse.

Please understand, no one is talking about increasing Tyranid BS to 4 across the board. We're talking about our leader-beasts and the ones designed solely to shoot large blasts of warp energy. I might be mistaken, but I've yet to hear about a single piece of fluff that had a Zoanthrope viciously kill anything by beating it to death with it's enlarged cranium. Making tanks and men explode like matchsticks from warp blast? Yea, I can find a couple references for that.

Finn
01-09-2009, 11:15
I know that Americans, for one reason or another, have become acceptable targets (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptablePoliticalTargets) for flaming based on stereotypes, prejudice, and limited experiences applied as broad generalizations to encompass a whole nationality, but that doesn't make it right. You don't see me calling out all the Brits here as having bad teeth, comparing every Aussie to the late Mr. Irwin, or calling any Frenchman a cheese-eating surrender monkey, do you? So please, posters of Warseer, there's no need to take every opportunity in every post to spit on my country.

Kudos. Incidentally, there's a song (http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/descendents/merican.html) I know of that covers this sentiment somewhat.

yabbadabba
01-09-2009, 11:16
I hate to disagree with you, but the prevalent build for most Tyranid armies involve making their MCs as shooty as possible, and keeping troops to genestealers or gaunts, pending on your flavor.

I tend to see the prevalent build amongst tournament goers is as you describe, with nidzilla and nidRAF builds. But the majority of builds I see amongst non-tournament players (and there are a few of us) is whats cheapest/easiest to get. So you tend to see a lot of stealers because of BFM swaps.

I still don't see a reason for a BS increase. BS3 is an average and is reasonable. But there again I believe that armies shouldn't be perfectly balanced, that sometimes armies should have "bogey" opponents and that armies should have weaknesses - either obvious or not.

I also believe that now GW have opened the whole tournament can of worms, they should now support this by producing a core rule set and a core army lists set that are the same for beginners and tournaments. The codices can be for those of us who want to explore beyond basic competitive gaming.

Troah
01-09-2009, 16:05
Seeing as the game is made by humans and mainly revolves around the Imperium, I think it is safe to say humanity IS the master race in 40k.


It would be nice if it wasn't focused around the squishy pathetic human race.

megatrons2nd
01-09-2009, 16:11
Yeah, there's no reason for your S5-basic-weapon-carrying-Troops to have BS4 either.

I advocate BS4 upgrades for Zoanthropes, Warriors, and Tyrants. That's it.

My Elite Battle suits, Stealth suits, and my Heavy Support Broadsides should then have BS4. They are supposed to be the best the Tau have to offer. The reason they don't is the same as Nids not getting it on thiers, Balance.

carltmc
01-09-2009, 16:33
Epa desculpa ter dado erros e isso ser um crime de guerra, mas muito obrigado por um ser tão triste como tu ter tempo para reponder e ja agora tenho orgulho por não ser anglo saxonico meu badamerda.

did you understand... no translate it. im not english, a dunb american, canadian or australian so english isnt my 1st language, its normal that i give so errors if im typing in a hurry, still i see people that mka the same "crime" in warseer.

now for the rest didnt see the glancing only in venom cannon, living amo makes nids good shoots, didnt say it was to blow up tanks. zoas make good av hunter, i have seen it many times.

Dumb American? Don't be an @$$....

HsojVvad
01-09-2009, 17:01
Please no flamming anyone. This is not a post about nationalities, who is wright or wrong. Please keep it to the topic or I will close the post.

I have lernt alot here, and would hate this to become a flame fest.

Ironfather0
01-09-2009, 17:11
My Elite Battle suits, Stealth suits, and my Heavy Support Broadsides should then have BS4. They are supposed to be the best the Tau have to offer. The reason they don't is the same as Nids not getting it on thiers, Balance.

*sigh* some people still don't get it. There's a flaw in your logic because making a tyrant BS 4, and giving a zoie BS4 is not unbalanced in the slightest. The Zoie is unbalanced right now, as it is weaker and is generally only useful on the rarest of occasion. I don't think making him hit on 3's is gonna be the end of the world. "OH no, 3 zoies on the board with BS4, well looks like my 8+ tanks are dead" :rolleyes:

Marshal Sinclair
01-09-2009, 17:18
My Elite Battle suits, Stealth suits, and my Heavy Support Broadsides should then have BS4. They are supposed to be the best the _Tau_ have to offer. The reason they don't is the same as Nids not getting it on thiers, Balance.

You may have answered your own complaint right there. :chrome:

Mr.Rotty
01-09-2009, 17:22
I really don't understand why their is still a debate :eyebrows:
I was getting the idea that theres a general agreement between nid players and non-nid players saying just the Zoan and (upgradeable to) Tyrant should get it.

:angel:

Bolter Bait
01-09-2009, 17:33
Dumb American? Don't be an @$$....Eh, ease up on him. He may be in the wrong for lashing out like that, but I provoked him by treating him as if he was a 10-year old trolling the web instead of someone who does not have a native grasp on the primary language here.

So, Logan_uc, I apologize for being an ass myself. Desculpe.

============

Back to the topic. The erroneous comparison was drawn between Zoanthropes and IG Lascannon Teams. This is an apples to oranges comparison in numerous ways.

IG HWT has the luxury of 48" range, enabling them to sit leisurely back in safe, tall cover and can cover nearly the entire table, meaning they can shoot at targets from turn 1, while a Zoey has half the range and needs to chase down targets that are either sitting on the back edge of the board or zipping along at breakneck speeds along the far-side, putting them into a danger zone of getting assaulted or Rapid Fire range. Terminators die to massed small shots. A single Zoanthrope dies just as easily.

IG HWTs can be twin-linked through Commands, greatly increasing it's accuracy. Zoanthropes, pretending they always have range, will fail to be able to use Warp Blast almost once per game, will miss with 50% of their successful WBs and have the chance to Wound themselves using that ability. Fortunately, the chance is less likely than Get's Hot!, but it's still another point in favour of IG HWTs.

IG HWTs do not take up valuable Heavy Support choices and can claim back objectives while still retaining their full capacity for long ranged destruction. Zoeys cannot score and compete with Carnifexes. Taking a Zoey brood reduces the number of living battering rams we can field.

Finally, IG HWTs are just one more option for IG anti-tank in an army that has a glut of wonderful choices in nearly every slot. Tyranids have amazing close-combat anti-tank in the form of slower than dirt MCs (that only a poor or desperate opponent would EVER permit to assault their vehicles), a long range pop-gun that subtracts -2 from any damage result, a long range, woefully inaccurate gun with a maximum Str of 8, medium-range inaccurate guns with a max Str of 7, and a medium-ranged, unreliable psychic power.

Tyranids are handicapped enough when it comes to anti-tank, either by unreliable ranged capabilities or by being limited to movement that can never hope to catch a non-suicidal vehicle. Asking for a slight boost to the accuracy of leader-beasts will not break the game, especially when in the end, having BS4 means a Zoey goes from a 5-6% chance of destroying a vehicle to a 6%-7%. Which is on top of being out of range for likely two turns each game.

Finally, making Zoanthropes more reliable makes them more attractive and leads to less MCs in general, so I'm really not sure why people are so against another way of reducing the number of Nidzilla lists out there.

LKHERO
01-09-2009, 18:54
This is ridiculous.

Tyranids already shoot better than most MEQ; Hive Tyrants with Wings with 2x Devourers have how many shots at S5 with re-rolls to hit and wound?

What?

Marshal Sinclair
01-09-2009, 19:02
If you go the shooty route (the only viable one these days) with Nids you have 7/8 shooty things on the table, and a few squads because you have to. Is it really a crime to be ok at shooting if you only have 20 models on the table?

Egaeus
01-09-2009, 19:49
Tyranids are handicapped enough when it comes to anti-tank, either by unreliable ranged capabilities or by being limited to movement that can never hope to catch a non-suicidal vehicle. Asking for a slight boost to the accuracy of leader-beasts will not break the game, especially when in the end, having BS4 means a Zoey goes from a 5-6% chance of destroying a vehicle to a 6%-7%. Which is on top of being out of range for likely two turns each game.

One of the fundamental issues that I've brought up before is that the Tyranids are an army that relies on its non-Troop choices for ranged anti-tank, unlike armies such as Marines or Guard that can drop a lascannon, meltagun and melta bombs in nearly every Troop choice if they wish. And I doubt a lot of people would consider Genestealers effective and reliable anti-tank units (the only Troops choice that is effective against vehicles).

So we would like to think that we could have some choices that were actually effective at what they are supposed to be doing.

I've mentioned in another post how I would go about fixing things: For Zoans, just up the range on Warp Blast and make it a simple choice, rather than a psychic test. I would suggest a 36" range for both types of Blast. While I would like them to be BS 4 if they did this without increasing their price any (and remaining BS3) it would still help a lot.

I sort of expect some Biomorphs to go away with the way the new Codexes are being written (but who knows, they might decide to stick with them for 'Nids)...has anyone considered re-writing the Enhanced Senses to allow a single ranged to-hit to be re-rolled? Just something I'm tossing out there which is probably moot since as I understand it the Codex is probably already written.

The reason I brougt up biomorphs going away was the thought that they could just go over to a fixed statline on most units...that is, for example, the Tyrant would come inherently with the statline provided by taking the BS, WS, and I upgrades. The main reason to take/not take these as I understand it now is specialization...shooty bugs don't need to be good in CC and CC bugs don't need to be good at shooting, so the idea is that you're saving some points by making them specialized. I always figured that the Tyrant had a mediocre BS because it was allowed to carry the 'Nid equivalent of heavy weapons, something most leaders aren't allowed to...although they usually get Command Squads or such that can have a variety of special weapons.

Apologies, that last paragraph got a bit rambling...basic idea was that I expect to see a fix statline for units so I would expect the "upgrades" to be rolled in.

Finn
01-09-2009, 20:01
If you go the shooty route (the only viable one these days) with Nids you have 7/8 shooty things on the table, and a few squads because you have to. Is it really a crime to be ok at shooting if you only have 20 models on the table?

I disagree that it's the only viable route, but I will confess that it is absolutely necessary to have some solid shooting power. For me this amounts to Deathspitter spam on cheap warriors (26 or 31 points each depending on the mood) and a Strangler/spitter fex. I still field enormous gaunt squads and do OK, and stealers for hard targets. Cries about stealers being ineffective these days are somewhat exaggerated - the only thing they're less effective against is AV14 all around, everything else gets hit on rear armor and the rending still hurts...Combine this with outflanking and mmmmm.

Anyway, in the *upcoming codex* I would like the option for BS4 Warriors. Maybe they'll split up the Warrior genus into two separate entries, one that can be geared for dakka and one for lots of claws. A BS5 Tyrant shouldn't be out of the picture either - as people have pointed out, it's the pinnacle of battlefield evolution (short of Apocalypse). There can only be 2 on the table, and honestly if you're scared of twin-twin-devourer Tyrants being BS5 instead of BS4, let me lay it out for you:

Hits with BS4: 8 (first roll) + 2.64 (rerolls) = 10.64
Hits with BS5: 10 (first roll) + 1.67 (rerolls) = 11.67

That's just one more hit on average. Now I know that means on average you almost hit the maximum number of hits (12), but how many times have you already seen a BS4 tyrant get 12 hits? I'm guessing more than a few, as I've seen it tons of times. Now you might say that if they already hit the maximum hits at BS4 why should he have the option to get to BS5? Because sometimes you take a Winged Tyrant with 2 talons and Warp Blast (the can't-shoot-powered-up version with enhanced senses part of that power needs to go IMO, or we need some other anti-tank), or sometimes he's got a venom cannon. HQ models of such super-human capability should be able to hit on 2's. Sammael has a BS5 Plasma Cannon, Avatars have a BS5 melta, Vulkhan gives an entire army meltas/flamers that are better than BS5 (hitting 8/9 times = 88.88%), etc. etc. Having a big bug with BS5 isn't that unreasonable - not to mention it would be in a new codex with weapons/options changes from what is currently available. I think that's the biggest point - I'm sure it will be absolutely fine if in the new codex the Tyrant has/can have BS5 because it will be considered at the same time as possible changes to its weapons and options. The same argument goes for the other beasts that should be better shots (Warriors and Thropes), albeit for BS4 instead of 3.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-09-2009, 22:55
My Elite Battle suits, Stealth suits, and my Heavy Support Broadsides should then have BS4. They are supposed to be the best the Tau have to offer. The reason they don't is the same as Nids not getting it on thiers, Balance.
Actually, the reason your Battlesuits don't have base BS4 (or at least a cheaper BS4 upgrade that doesn't eat up one of those priceless hard points) is because the Tau have a crap Codex right now. Guess what? So do Tyranids, when it comes to our options against Transport-heavy armies.

Think of it this way:
-Tau: "Our shooting has serious problems and needs to be improved in places so we can better handle large numbers without having to resort to CC. How are we supposed to handle Orks?"
-Space Marine: "WHAT?! You can already kill a Land Raider or a Monolith more reliably than anybody. What more do you want?!"
-Tau: "Something to handle Nob Bikers without fielding 9 Broadsides and 24 Pathfinders?"
-Space Marines: "You won't be happy until you can wipe out everyone, will you? Why don't you just accept that your army has a weakness?"

Vaktathi
01-09-2009, 23:02
Actually, the reason your Battlesuits don't have base BS4 (or at least a cheaper BS4 upgrade that doesn't eat up one of those priceless hard points) is because the Tau have a crap Codex right now. Guess what? So do Tyranids, when it comes to our options against Transport-heavy armies. Nobody complained about Tau not having BS4 when they were absolutely amazing in 3rd and 4th ed. The problem isn't the average BS, it was the heavy reliance on the old LoS and SMF rules. If they can get access to a couple more blast weapons and some updates to remove the reliance on the old SMF and LoS rules, Tau will be fine.

Marshal Sinclair
01-09-2009, 23:24
Fire Warrior shooting is slightly more effective than Marine shooting. A Str5 weapon hitting on a 4+ is the same as a Str 4 weapon hitting on a 3+. Tau weapons have a 6 inch longer range, but they can't take plasma/flamer/melta guns. A decent trade off considering they are quite a lot cheaper.

ooglatjama
02-09-2009, 03:26
I'm going to guess the guy claiming Tyranids are the greatest army ever and that Tyranids win every time is a Tyranid player.

Vepr
02-09-2009, 04:14
That is what you get for letting us eat Telion and some Vindicares. Now we are going to get BS4. ;) :p

catbarf
02-09-2009, 05:04
Fire Warrior shooting is slightly more effective than Marine shooting. A Str5 weapon hitting on a 4+ is the same as a Str 4 weapon hitting on a 3+. Tau weapons have a 6 inch longer range, but they can't take plasma/flamer/melta guns. A decent trade off considering they are quite a lot cheaper.

Sorry for the nitpick, but a Fire Warrior and Marine are equal in shooting against T4, but against T3, the Marine is 5.6% more effective. Not a big difference, but still- Marines are better at shooting than Tau.

Also, that range isn't terribly useful, given that most armies set up 24" away from each other.

Another consideration is that Tau are significantly easier to kill- against Bolter fire, they'll take twice as many wounds as Marines.


I'm going to guess the guy claiming Tyranids are the greatest army ever and that Tyranids win every time is a Tyranid player.

I'd put money on it being an Ultramarines player instead :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-09-2009, 06:49
It would be nice if it wasn't focused around the squishy pathetic human race.

You and your lack of faith. You need some /tg/ HUMANITY **** YEAR threads.

Marrak
02-09-2009, 10:43
I think there needs to be a clarification to what I've been saying, since there seems to be some misunderstanding.

I'm an advocate of giving the Zoanthrope BS 4... if Warp Blast remains in its current form. If you want to seriously tank hunt with it (for some reason) you have to use the focus blast, which brings you extremely close to whatever target you're firing at, and requires an inordinate amount of checks to simply be able to harm any vehicle, the crux of which is a 50/50 shot AFTER A psychic check, and after you've moved your Zoanthrope into harms way.

Add to this, the total amount of warp blast models you can ever have is 5 and non of them, not even the Tyrants, can have BS 4 if they want to use the focused blast. Compare that to the amount of las-cannon equivolent other armies can field. Remember, we can only ever take 3 Zoanthropes; to answer someone earlier who said it was a poor comparison to check to how many HWTs IG can have, think of it this way... How many HWTs can you field at 1500 points and at 4000 points, if you were feeling crazy and wanted to really push the limit for em.

Now a Tyranid player can only ever have 3 zoanthropes. Doesn't matter if it's a 1k game or a 5k game. There's a hard limit to them of 1 brood only in standard 40k games.

With the severe restrictions and hurdles it has to deal with to use the focused blast, a BS 4 doesn't seem too unreasonable to me on the giant floating brain that's only used for shooting.

Egaeus
02-09-2009, 15:44
Now a Tyranid player can only ever have 3 zoanthropes. Doesn't matter if it's a 1k game or a 5k game. There's a hard limit to them of 1 brood only in standard 40k games.

The thing is, with a new Codex this restriction is easy to remove. I always figured the restriction was there previously because Zoantrhopes fell into the "3-for-1" category along with Lictors and Biovores (who, being compressed into a single Brood should have lost the restriction in 4th but they probably still wouldn't have been popular). In previous editions of the game this ability was pretty potent. In the current game paradigm it's not quite as abusive as it was before. Plus it allows GW to sell more Zoanthropes ;). If you could actually get 9 useful Zoanthropes in an army it might be a worthwhile investment and would probably go a long way in quelling the cries against 'Nidzilla. Although then we might see "Zoie spam" as the new :cheese:. Which at least would be something new and different.

Reinholt
02-09-2009, 16:04
If we are talking about the potential for a new codex, I would suspect the following may be true:

1 - We're going to see some new types of bug that we know nothing about.

2 - The Carnifex (and maybe the Tyrant, but maybe not) will become more assault focused and less shooting focused, but also probably better at getting into assault somehow.

3 - The Biovore needs to be heavily reworked to be usable, and I would not be shocked if this becomes the standard anti-tank weapon of the nids.

4 - The Zoanthrope, if there is a single model in the Tyranid range that deserves BS4, would be it. Or, some other change to warp blast, as right now, it's just about the most inefficient tank-hunting weapon in the game, narrowly ahead of the two worst, which are the toothpick and the piece of lint.

HsojVvad
02-09-2009, 16:38
Zonie span, I got a chuckle out of that. Would be something different at least.