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View Full Version : Ok, Who helped the Tau this time?



Nicha11
31-08-2009, 10:27
2nd pg, Battle fleet gothic Tau book.

On the innermost of Tíau sevenís moons a
routine geological survey discovered the remains
of an alien vessel. The significance of the find did
not disrupt Tau society as much as might have
been expected. Tau theorists had long reasoned
that other life forms existed and the verification
helped confirm the belief that there was a greater
destiny awaiting them. No Tau commented on
the sheer good fortune of finding the technology
that they so desperately needed on their
doorstep just when they needed it.

Its heavily implied that someone gave them the technology (slots in with the rest of their background).

So, who dunnit?

Gustovic
31-08-2009, 10:30
The Old Ones.
The Old ones have created the Tau to fight against the Chaos and so they are tryng to help them.

Bassik
31-08-2009, 10:33
The Old Ones.
The Old ones have created the Tau to fight against the Chaos and so they are tryng to help them.

Good grief....

Condottiere
31-08-2009, 10:33
Maybe the Eldar copied the technology from a race extinct, oh, these thirty million years, and left an example for the Tau to find.

Burnthem
31-08-2009, 10:45
In an galaxy of millions of stars, and countless Alien races (Yes, its not just the Imperium, Orks, Eldar et al) it could have been absolutely anybody.

Some things are meant to be a mystery.

grissom2006
31-08-2009, 10:49
Whats to say it wasn't from the first expedition the Imperium made into Tau space and just worked out how to work it better than the humans did. They could of quite simply left stuff behind.

Gustovic
31-08-2009, 10:55
Maybe the Eldar copied the technology from a race extinct, oh, these thirty million years, and left an example for the Tau to find.

Mmmmmmmmmhh, not the Eldar. They are too proud and I don't think that they consider the Tau differently by the humans.
They were the Old ones. I'm not joking, it's the thruth. Thry to ask to the "masters" of the BG around here.

Condottiere
31-08-2009, 11:06
Though I'd be interested to find out if Tau can copy Orkish technology.

Lord Malorne
31-08-2009, 11:08
Mmmmmmmmmhh, not the Eldar. They are too proud and I don't think that they consider the Tau differently by the humans.
They were the Old ones. I'm not joking, it's the thruth. Thry to ask to the "masters" of the BG around here.

Read xenology.

Gustovic
31-08-2009, 11:17
Aready done. There is a piece of Wraithbone in Ethereal's head. Yes, Eldar use it, but who created the Eldar and theyr tecnology? Why the Tau can't perceive the Chaos Perils? Because the Old Ones are fighting against Chaos and they have failde with: Eldar (they have created a Chaos God), Orks (too rebelliuos), Mankind (too weak against Chaos). Now they have created the Tau, they gave them the tecnology and the Ethereals to control them.

WEEVILWOOD
31-08-2009, 11:33
If to follow the trend it was obviously the c'tan just before their attempt to subdue mankind with starbucks ...

Daver X
31-08-2009, 11:39
or it just turned up by coincidence...
if you have a 40,000 years for something to occur in an area with several different space faring races it's starting to become possible
add in the incredibly easy time everyone has at predicting what the warp could do to you and your ship, space hulks floating about, a whole colonisation fleet lost heading in that direction and a small scale war occuring in the rest of the galaxy there is quite a high chance that something might pop up
or a it was just some grand conspiracy? who knows (probably tezeench and quite a few more)

Lord_Shorty
31-08-2009, 11:56
Aready done. There is a piece of Wraithbone in Ethereal's head. Yes, Eldar use it, but who created the Eldar and theyr tecnology? Why the Tau can't perceive the Chaos Perils? Because the Old Ones are fighting against Chaos and they have failde with: Eldar (they have created a Chaos God), Orks (too rebelliuos), Mankind (too weak against Chaos). Now they have created the Tau, they gave them the tecnology and the Ethereals to control them.

Firstly, where in "Xenology" does it say that Ethereals have wraithbone in their heads? If you mean the diamond-shaped organ on their forehead, then that is not it. It is very clear what that organ is if you read the book, and it is not wraithbone.

Secondly, the Tau were not "given" their technology, they created it themselves, with the exception of technology that they bought or took from other races ( ion technology for example ).

Lastly, the origins of the Ethereals are heavily hinted at in the book, and the Old Ones did not create them. I'm not going to give spoilers for those who haven't read it, but I suggest you read it again more closely.

Condottiere
31-08-2009, 13:27
If it's a warp capable ship, it might even have time travelled before crashing.

guillimansknight
31-08-2009, 15:12
A) not old ones that's ********
B) no way was it "given" by the eldar their farseers aren't THAT good
C) It was probably from the colony fleet that hit a warp storm just before it got to Tau

Col. Tartleton
31-08-2009, 15:19
It was a Tau ship that got lost in the warp in the future and traveled back in time before crashing on the moon. The Tau copied its design exactly and have presumed they ripped off the design from an elder race. In fact they actually created a self fulfilling prophecy of their future as space farers.

I win.

guillimansknight
31-08-2009, 15:27
It was a Tau ship that got lost in the warp in the future and traveled back in time before crashing on the moon. The Tau copied its design exactly and have presumed they ripped off the design from an elder race. In fact they actually created a self fulfilling prophecy of their future as space farers.

I win.

Yes you do, you win the prize for being a nutter.

The prize is a veeeerrrryyy long holiday in a lovely hotel courtesy of the Inquisition.

Lord Damocles
31-08-2009, 16:22
It was a Tau ship that got lost in the warp in the future and traveled back in time before crashing on the moon. The Tau copied its design exactly and have presumed they ripped off the design from an elder race. In fact they actually created a self fulfilling prophecy of their future as space farers.

I win.
Dammit. That's exactly what I was going to say :p

Prodigalson
31-08-2009, 16:53
I'm on board with the ship being part of the imperial fleet, it makes the complete since. Also tau warp travel is very similar to imperial EXCEPt they don't have navigators, and therefore can't go deep into the warp. i.e. they use a similar travel style.

As for who created the Tau, again, read zenology, it's fairly explcit, although I would add a modification due to a personal theory. The Eldar do not have the known ability to create huge warp storms that hid them. However, the group that the Eldar work with that are seen in Decent of Angels (Watchers in the Dark) and also Legion. I think that is the group you can put your finger on.

Also the only known quote from the Eldar about the Tau is out of the 3.0 Tau Codex. I don't remember the complete phrase but it's something like "I see all of our possibility in the young ones." If someone else could find the quote, that would be helpful.

Firaxin
31-08-2009, 17:14
It wasn't the Old Ones; the Old Ones created psychic races (because their arch-nemeses were the Necrontyr and the C'Tan), and the Tau are distinctly not psychic.

The two most possible (or most pleasing, IMO) are that 1 it was the remains of the Imperium's colonization fleet (a bitter irony in keeping with 40k trends, and yet another reason why the Tau are only around today because of the Imperium) or 2 that it's a Tau ship gone back in time (mainly just because that's cool). ;)

Writerski7
31-08-2009, 17:31
Maybe it's one of Vulkan's artefacts. Now the Salamanders have an excuse to come in there and whip Tau butt.

Dhazzakull
31-08-2009, 17:55
The german Lexicanum says that the organ on the ethereals Heads are similar to the organs of some sort of alian called Q'orl, it says also that eldar cidnapped in m37 a hivequeen of the Q'orl.
That implies that the eldar created the ethereals to unify the Tau, for what reason ever.
If the eldar are consequent in helping the tau its only logical that they deponated the ship on the moon to increase the technological advance of the tau.

the old seer
31-08-2009, 18:46
Also the only known quote from the Eldar about the Tau is out of the 3.0 Tau Codex. I don't remember the complete phrase but it's something like "I see all of our possibility in the young ones." If someone else could find the quote, that would be helpful.

"i have followed the myriad potential futures of the tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls" ELDRAD ULTHRAN, p61 codex TAU.
I hope that's the quote you mean and I hope it helps.

Bregalad
31-08-2009, 19:28
At that point, the Tau already invented space travel (they found the vessel on a moon!), so it is not that essential to Tau technology. We know that humans visited T'au before, we also might assume that Eldar were there (if we take Xenology's hints seriously). So I would opt for humans as the most likely option, but any possible Xeno race with space travel as possible.

Shrapnel
31-08-2009, 23:09
Judging by the "subtle" hints trowelled on by xenology, I'm backing the idea that the Eldar are behind it.

Condottiere
31-08-2009, 23:43
Once the C'Tan fall out of fashion, it will be the turn of the Eldar to have had a finger in every pie. But it would make sense for them to secretly sponsor a race to remove attention from themselves.

DoombringerATT
01-09-2009, 00:05
At that point, the Tau already invented space travel (they found the vessel on a moon!), so it is not that essential to Tau technology

What kind of logic is that?

Sending an expedition to a moon in your own planetary orbit is much different and far less complex than creating and operating fast interdimensional and interstellar engines...

The discovery of functional Warp Drives would have been (and were) hugely essential to the Tau's progress in becoming a fortified power in the Eastern Fringe. Without those Warp Drives, they'd probably still be in orbit around T'au sending sub-light ships out to the various stars and waiting hundreds of years for them to get there...

---

Xenology *SPOILERS*

On the topic of Xenology, while I agree that the Eldar (or, more accurately, one obscure faction of them) were definitely responsible for the Ethereals' initial creation, I don't think people are seeing the more subtle submeanings of the text that imply something entirely more complex.

1) A primary theme of Xenology (learned at the end of the book) is, obviously, about one of the Deceiver's Necron Lords infiltrating the Imperium's Inquisition in a reconnaissance effort primarily to see what all the Old Ones' various creations have been up to in the tens of millions of years that the C'tan have been in hibernation. The Tau are featured here as one of the primary dissections, the implications of which are not lost on most readers.

2) The interpretation/translation of the Eldar tablet near the end (the one that revives the Star Child theory from 2nd Edition) quite clearly implies that the entire Eldar Pantheon of Gods, to include Cegorach and Khaela Mensha Khaine, may have been Old Ones who were either in hiding or became 'trapped' in those forms somehow. Given this, it is not implausible to think that the Old Ones (Cegorach, specifically) may still have plans of their own, as well as a continuing presence in shaping some of the major events of the Galaxy.

3) The events described in the Q'orl Queen's capture reek of a dedicated Harlequin mission. The description of 'Stealth-and-Shadow-slip' is full of literary allusions to Harlequins and their notorious knowledge of the webway's many and varied openings, from which they could quickly strike out at the Q'orl and steal their very Queen away with impunity. And we all know who the Harlequins answer to... The only being in the Galaxy who knows every pathway and opening into and out of the webway; Cegorach himself.

---

With all these connections, I think the Old Ones (Cegorach) may be behind the Tau's Deus Ex Machina upbringing (or at least a lot of it), while the older, wiser races like the Eldar and the Demiurg were the ones doing the dirty work.

Bregalad
01-09-2009, 00:46
What kind of logic is that?

Sending an expedition to a moon in your own planetary orbit is much different and far less complex than creating and operating fast interdimensional and interstellar engines...

The discovery of functional Warp Drives would have been (and were) hugely essential to the Tau's progress in becoming a fortified power in the Eastern Fringe. Without those Warp Drives, they'd probably still be in orbit around T'au sending sub-light ships out to the various stars and waiting hundreds of years for them to get there...

1.) My point is that this discovery didn't start technological development (like the appearance of ethereals started social/cultural development in a way), as Tau already were on about a level as mankind today.

2.) Tau don't have a functional warp drive, still searching for warp technology. They can only "surf the rim of the warp" to get around a bit faster than normal. That's why they are concentrated in the Eastern Fringe. Kroot on the other hand have limited warp drive technology, as they ate a Big Mec from an Ork Space Hulk.

DoombringerATT
01-09-2009, 01:16
Bregalad, for all intents and purposes though, the Warp Drives themselves are fully functional, or at least as 'fully functional' as Imperial analogues are that travel from system to system without the aid of Navigators...

The Warp Drives are at least functional enough to perform their intended role of pulling the ship towards the Immaterium. The grav-wing simply holds the ship down, while an Imperial Gellar Field would be the technology that completes the process of translation.

---

Despite it all, the reasoning for why the Tau cannot travel through the warp is conflicting.

According to Dark Heresy (pg. 55), it seems the only missing component that would be preventing the Tau from achieving warp translation is the Gellar Field, which "bend[s] the ship through the veil of realspace into the immaterium." The lack of a Navigator isn't a crippling blow to warp travel; they can simply travel by frequently dropping out of warp space to check and double-check their positioning before repeating the process. Slower, but still possible.

Even so, To Unite the Stars seems to imply that it is the lack of Navigators themselves, not the technology of the drives, that are preventing the Tau from successfully traveling the warp. "Achieving transition to the Warp required more than technology, it required psychically attuned minds and the Tau boasted no psykers." (pg. 96)

---

Due to the conflicting nature of the background, and To Unite the Stars' explanation that the drives themselves are indeed functionally operating as intended, I'd hesitate to make such broad and generalized statements as "the Tau don't have functional Warp Drives" and "the Warp Drives were not that essential on Tau technology"...

The Warp Drives' discovery, then subsequent reverse-engineering and mass-production are probably the single most essential pieces of (now) Tau technology that can be attributed to the Empire's development and success as a power on the Eastern Fringe...

Xisor
01-09-2009, 02:57
DB,

I'd iterate my interpretation of the 'lack of psychically attuned minds' from To Unite the Stars. The nature of warp engines is that they pull the ship into the warp. The Geller Field pulls in the bubble of reality to permit it to survive the trip. My guess at the engine pulling the ship in was that it had to be 'hooked' into the warp in the first place, the only way to do this would be via a psyker.

Taking Star of Damocles and its ghoulish refuelling scene as inspiration, one might propose that these psychically attuned minds are 'proper fuel' for the engine, in one form or another. By reverse engineering, the Tau are able to throw themselves at the walls of reality, but they can't climb high enough as they haven't had their psy-grapple thrown over the wall to the 'other side'.

A poor analogy, but mechanically it makes sense for me.

It also opens the Tau up to psy-terrorism. If someone could hook their engines into the warp, their ships would simply start winking out of existence the first time they dive, never to be seen again (except as ghastly spectres).

Prodigalson
01-09-2009, 03:19
That was the quote I was looking for. I believe the conversation has gone in another direction, but still.

Shinzui
01-09-2009, 03:32
DB,

I'd iterate my interpretation of the 'lack of psychically attuned minds' from To Unite the Stars. The nature of warp engines is that they pull the ship into the warp. The Geller Field pulls in the bubble of reality to permit it to survive the trip. My guess at the engine pulling the ship in was that it had to be 'hooked' into the warp in the first place, the only way to do this would be via a psyker.

Taking Star of Damocles and its ghoulish refuelling scene as inspiration, one might propose that these psychically attuned minds are 'proper fuel' for the engine, in one form or another. By reverse engineering, the Tau are able to throw themselves at the walls of reality, but they can't climb high enough as they haven't had their psy-grapple thrown over the wall to the 'other side'.

A poor analogy, but mechanically it makes sense for me.

It also opens the Tau up to psy-terrorism. If someone could hook their engines into the warp, their ships would simply start winking out of existence the first time they dive, never to be seen again (except as ghastly spectres).

That theory doesn't make sense as Ships without pskyer/Navigators are able to achieve warp transit. There are many problems as said above.

This isn't the same as the method the Tau use, as the Tau are only able to achieve it through the Gravitic drive which is their own invention and applied to the warp technology they reversed engineered.

By that line of thought we can assume if Imperial Warp drives do not require psykers it most likely isn't a human warp drive but another races.

cyenwulf
01-09-2009, 04:53
It was a Tau ship that got lost in the warp in the future and traveled back in time before crashing on the moon. The Tau copied its design exactly and have presumed they ripped off the design from an elder race. In fact they actually created a self fulfilling prophecy of their future as space farers.

I win.

So the original Tau ship was created from a copy of itself that got lost in the warp and travelled back in time? But doesn't that mean that that ship was created from a copy of itself that got lost in the warp and travelled back in time?

Time paaarrraaaddooxxxxx!

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 06:52
If the Tau themselves can't become Navigators, they can certainly recruit from races that can.

Burnthem
01-09-2009, 09:16
That theory doesn't make sense as Ships without pskyer/Navigators are able to achieve warp transit. There are many problems as said above.

This isn't the same as the method the Tau use, as the Tau are only able to achieve it through the Gravitic drive which is their own invention and applied to the warp technology they reversed engineered.

By that line of thought we can assume if Imperial Warp drives do not require psykers it most likely isn't a human warp drive but another races.

He isn't saying you need an active psyker such as a Navigator, only that the more potential that species has (ie humans -alot) the easier it is to acheive entry into the Warp. Whilst i disagree with this i do think it's an original idea.

Warp drives themselves are entirely technological, and can be operated by anybody that knows which buttons to press. Even navigating and protecting yourself within the warp is possible without psykers, they just make it a whole lot easier.

If the Tau managed to acheive complete immersion in the warp, would thier comparitive lack of souls keep them safe or would they stick out even more, being a blank spot in an otherwise full sea of souls etc?

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 09:43
The Tau can daisy chain themselves to ignite a spark. Then you have navigation by committee.

Lord-Caerolion
01-09-2009, 11:20
He isn't saying you need an active psyker such as a Navigator, only that the more potential that species has (ie humans -alot) the easier it is to acheive entry into the Warp. Whilst i disagree with this i do think it's an original idea.

Warp drives themselves are entirely technological, and can be operated by anybody that knows which buttons to press. Even navigating and protecting yourself within the warp is possible without psykers, they just make it a whole lot easier.

If the Tau managed to acheive complete immersion in the warp, would thier comparitive lack of souls keep them safe or would they stick out even more, being a blank spot in an otherwise full sea of souls etc?

Tau, with some more study, could probably perform a Calculated Warp Jump, which is basically using weird sensors and stuff to "map" the flows of the Warp, and following a pre-prepared route. They'll never be able to do a Navigated Warp Jump by themselves, as that requires an actual Navigator.

As for how easy they can be seen, I'd say it'd be about normal, going that deep you'd be noticed no matter what you did, really.

DoombringerATT
01-09-2009, 13:31
Lord-Caerolion, funny you should suggest such a thing; the Tau have actually tried this in the past.

In Kill Team, the Tau in the novel utilize pre-mapped 'gates' that they know are relatively stable to fly through the space between spheres (the Vash'aun'an) on a predesignated route.

It's unclear, however, whether this is a common mode of travel compared to the way BFG describes it, but regardless, the Tau have also been described as having waystations and listening posts deep in the void that are capable of monitoring the local warp currents without the use of actual psykers.