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IG_Airborne_Ranger
01-09-2009, 03:28
What are the chances of GW ever making another game based on another franchise like LOTR? Particularly a science fiction one?

Putty
01-09-2009, 03:42
almost none.

they already face a heap load of work supporting their own line of products.

them taking up another franchise means whatever army other people own of GW's existing line will get pushed back further in their schedule.

for purely selfish reasons, who will want that?

ask them Inquisition, Dark Eldar and Necron players...

IG_Airborne_Ranger
01-09-2009, 03:45
almost none.

they already face a heap load of work supporting their own line of products.

them taking up another franchise means whatever army other people own of GW's existing line will get pushed back further in their schedule.

for purely selfish reasons, who will want that?

ask them Inquisition, Dark Eldar and Necron players...

There are people who play 40k that play other non-GW tabletop games as well.

Bookwrak
01-09-2009, 05:13
I believe that GW has publicly stated that they aren't doing any more licensed properties. They've already got the three core games to focus on, along with scant support for the specialist systems, and starting a new game system would mean either purchasing further production equipment, or cutting back on the rate they produce their existing models to make room for the new lines. Along with licensing contracts and all the entanglements that those involve, it's also a lot more expensive with a much smaller profit to use someone else's setting.

starlight
01-09-2009, 05:18
The only reason GW did LotR was to eliminate the possibility of a competitor getting such a lucrative opportunity. If a similar opportunity came along, I'm sure they would do the same thing...however I don't see any on the horizon, so it's unlikely...in the extreme.

Cane
01-09-2009, 05:41
They should pick up the Starcraft and Warcraft license :chrome:

Tommygun
01-09-2009, 06:01
I would like to see them try and turn the Hobbit into a table top war game.
Hobbit Apocalypse or Warmaster Hobbit.

starlight
01-09-2009, 06:20
They should pick up the Starcraft and Warcraft license :chrome:


I would like to see them try and turn the Hobbit into a table top war game.
Hobbit Apocalypse or Warmaster Hobbit.

:wtf:

*beats head on desk...*

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 07:27
Considering they're connected, you might get The Hobbit miniatures as a continuation of their LotR line.

But yes, for purely strategic reasons, they will probably try to secure any miniature line licence that would seriously threaten their market share, or sabotage it by driving up the price in a bidding war that any other company that gets it is accepting a poisoned chalice.

snurl
01-09-2009, 07:47
Nope. Due to contractual obligations, miniatures for "the hobbit" franchise must be a completely different scale than any other figures currently produced. I'm thinking about 54mm scale ought to be about right.
In 5 years, people will be fielding OK armies made from converted hobbits. :D

orlanth1000
01-09-2009, 10:38
They should pick up the Starcraft and Warcraft license :chrome:

I think you would find Warcraft would pick them up.

Baggers
01-09-2009, 11:15
I would like to see them try and turn the Hobbit into a table top war game.
Hobbit Apocalypse or Warmaster Hobbit.

Been done. It's called Battle of the Five Armies. As I understand, GW have the rights to 25mm from the film alone. Anything based on the book has to be a different scale. But I have not read the contracts and so do not how true this.

On topic. I don't see their being a Sci Fi setting that is worthy of GW. Star Wars maybe, but they'll never get that. Battlestar Gallatica or Stargate maybe.

blongbling
01-09-2009, 12:50
GW and Mark Wells has stated that they would never do another licence due to the issues it caused for their business at the time. Having said that I could see them doing the Hobbit as this is a natural extension of the current licence they have.

However they would never do another partworks with the Hobbit as that is what really caused the "issues" with the LoTR bubble

Condottiere
01-09-2009, 12:57
I think that BSG is too limted to have potential for continuing expansion such a game needed. Can't comment on Stargate, since I have unfavourable views of most of the episodes I've seen (probably fifty plus).

Tommygun
01-09-2009, 13:07
Fantasy Flight already has a BSG board game, but I suppose you could have a Battle fleet Gothic type game out of it.
I don't think Stargate would work as a war game, unless it was done on a very small skirmish level like Okko.

BigBadBull
01-09-2009, 15:28
Starwars= Hasbro=WotC... not going to happen and no more movies for the GW guys to appear in as back ground as extra corpses.

Condottiere
02-09-2009, 00:33
It's far cheaper and simpler for them to create another range, than to try and get a licence, and hope customers buy it, and then worry if the licence gets pulled or renegotiated.

starlight
02-09-2009, 01:21
The only reason they got LotR was to keep it from competitors. No other licence has that kind of potential.

It's *always* better in the long run to keep the IP in house...GW learned that a long time ago and they've stuck with it...

Occulto
02-09-2009, 01:53
Been done. It's called Battle of the Five Armies. As I understand, GW have the rights to 25mm from the film alone. Anything based on the book has to be a different scale. But I have not read the contracts and so do not how true this.

I do tend to chuckle when people ask: "are GW going to do a Hobbit TTG?"

Firstly, they've already done BoFA. Secondly, it's not exactly a story suited to wargaming.

"In this scenario you control Gandalf, Bilbo and the dwarfs in the trees. You have to throw pine cones at the wargs to hold them off until the eagles appear."

Or

"The player controlling Bilbo must roll on the riddle table to see if he can beat Gollum."

Exciting. :rolleyes:

Cypher
02-09-2009, 03:13
Nope. Due to contractual obligations, miniatures for "the hobbit" franchise must be a completely different scale than any other figures currently produced. I'm thinking about 54mm scale ought to be about right.
In 5 years, people will be fielding OK armies made from converted hobbits. :D


Been done. It's called Battle of the Five Armies. As I understand, GW have the rights to 25mm from the film alone. Anything based on the book has to be a different scale. But I have not read the contracts and so do not how true this.

On topic. I don't see their being a Sci Fi setting that is worthy of GW. Star Wars maybe, but they'll never get that. Battlestar Gallatica or Stargate maybe.
I dont think that's right - there's plenty of stuff in GWs LotR range that isnt direct from the films, including a mini of "Sauron the Necromancer".

I know there are limitations - the "renaming" of the blue wizards in WotR proves this, but I think anything from The Hobbit or LotR is fair game.

starlight
02-09-2009, 03:21
It's a big part of why the LotR minis are actual 28mm scale instead of the 28mm *heroic* that GW seems to prefer. Because LotR minis are based on real people, they needed to use an internally consistent scale that represented humans (ie the actors) properly... :)

I'm betting that The Hobbit minis will use the identical scale to the LotR minis...

Condottiere
02-09-2009, 07:10
Seems a given.

Does Bilbo get to do his Magic Disappearing Act? That would be the equivalent to an assassin. Anyway, since they'll be adding patches onto the story, GW probably does have the opportunity to have a healthy expansion of the range. Though unless someone starts pre-production on stories that precede LotR, this franchise must eventually wind down.

Tommygun
02-09-2009, 09:13
What about a Harry Potter battle wizard game or Twilight: Vampire Wars?

Seriously though, LOTR may be on its way out, but it brought in a lot of money to GW, so way not do something similar again?

Earl_UK
02-09-2009, 09:27
No Barry Trotter and Unnecessary TTG's please

blongbling
02-09-2009, 09:34
tommygun, for the basic reason that GW cant handle doing it. Not in the sense of it cant produce the game or miniatures but in the sense that the stores cant do it.

During the LoTR preiod GwWtotally took its eye off the ball and with regards to recruiting and sales of its two core systems and suffered as a result, it could do nothing else but stuff the tills with the huge bags of LoTR money that was coming in.

To do another major licence would present them with the same issues if they put it through their own stores, as such they wont risk that again as it flies in the face of their long term business strategy

Calgacus
02-09-2009, 11:10
"However they would never do another partworks with the Hobbit as that is what really caused the "issues" with the LoTR bubble"

tell me more I had always thought the part work was very successfull.

"During the LoTR preiod GwWtotally took its eye off the ball and with regards to recruiting and sales of its two core systems"

weren't they both on the slide before LOTR?

blongbling
02-09-2009, 12:08
answer to the questions above - partworks was very successful and drove lots of people into the stores, but therein was the problem. GW stores aren't retail stores like other retail stores and the staff act differently and operate in a different way. The staff were so busy they had to just take money from people and forgot how to do the hard part of the job, the hobby side and introduction side of it.
It was very successful in generating cash, but GW wanted to transfer those customers onto its other games sytems.....this it didn't do so well. It wasnt the sales of LoTR stuff itself that made it all so successful, it was the driving force of the partworks putting peple into the stores that did it.


Were the other two systems on the slide before the LoTR bubble...to be honest not really. GW was still in consistent and steady growth at that point and was performing quite well before it all went crazy with LoTR

Tommygun
02-09-2009, 12:37
With GW being publicly traded, I'm wondering if that would be hard to explain to investors?

Calgacus
02-09-2009, 12:44
so in a sense LOTR was a victim of it's own success

Lord Malorne
02-09-2009, 12:49
Fantasy Flight already has a BSG board game, but I suppose you could have a Battle fleet Gothic type game out of it.
I don't think Stargate would work as a war game, unless it was done on a very small skirmish level like Okko.

Stargate was done, I think you can still pick up serpent heads from time to time, it did not do well, mostly because most people did not know it existed, I did not until a few years after it was over.

You could do stargate with larger battles very easily, there are jaffa armies and aliens and different time periods with large galactic armies and so on. I don't think it ever will happen though.

blongbling
02-09-2009, 16:07
so in a sense LOTR was a victim of it's own success

yes and no cos the LoTR stuff still continues today but without all the hype created by the partworks....the Deagonstini part work was the best selling part work that they have ever done. They actually asked GW to do more, based on the GW IP but GW refused.


With GW being publicly traded, I'm wondering if that would be hard to explain to investors?

Cos the major investors in GW don't want to see another period where they don't get a dividend again, ergo they wouldn't question them not doing it again. Besides most investors wont get that involved, Gw is heading in the right direction(ish) again, is getting some (on the surface) improving results so why would they question what is going on?

Temprus
02-09-2009, 23:15
At this point, what license could GW get that would match LotR? All of the usual suspects are either played out or trapped with other companies that would not give them up.

Condottiere
03-09-2009, 05:40
Probably nothing currently available.

As regards Hasbro, they have material available from WotC, both Magic and D&D, so if they felt they needed a market share, they could attempt it. Star Wars, I think, is the only franchise that could match 40K in the Science Fantasy category.

Dervos
03-09-2009, 05:53
I would love to see a table top version of FFXI, except I'd want it to be actual armies, like the Federation of Windurst fighting Yagudo, like the crystal war stuff.

I can't see it happening though.

Ever

chromedog
03-09-2009, 06:24
There is a FF styled miniatures game already. It's called Anima Tactics, complete with
OTT swords.

Cacodemon
03-09-2009, 06:31
Warzone and Chronopia, hugely colourful and great games that fell victim to company troubles. They'd be nice skirmish-scaled alternate activation strategy games to offset the main lines of 40k and Fantasy, which feature grander armies.

fantomex
03-09-2009, 12:15
I can't imagine GW ever doing another game based on another IP again.
How long exactly is it til the LOTR thing stops with GW? Isn't there a limit in a few years?

blongbling
03-09-2009, 13:23
you pay for the licence, in theory they could keep going as long as they want as the licence itself isnt worth a huge amount anymore so the production company will want to keep making as much money as possible. They would have nothing to gain by opening it up to another company to take the licence as noone else would take it now

scarletsquig
03-09-2009, 14:19
Can't think of many current licences that would work.

I've always wanted a properly scaled star trek spaceship game (no, NOT micro machines, PPP, or that silly pop-out card game), the sheer range of models and different races that could be produced is huge, lots of different things in-show would translate well into wargaming.

Design would be a doddle, the ship designs are already fully laid-out, and look good.

There isn't much popular sci-fi/ fantasy that focuses on big-scale ground battles due to budget concerns. LotR really was unique in that regard. Spaceship stuff is a lot easier to make,

Battlestar Galactica would be reasonably suitable, but only as a boxed game, due to the big lack of variety in the ship designs (Only 2 different Cylon capital ships and fighters in the entire show). Also, it wouldn't be possible to base it off the TV show, you'd have to set it 40-50 years beforehand.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 00:05
The problem with licences is that you need to kickback a sum to the rights holder, usually whether you make a profit or not, and if you do (depending on the size), it tends to get renegotiated in the rights holder's favour.

Brandir
05-09-2009, 14:30
GW is a plc that needs to make profits to pay shareholders (which includes me) a dividend. If staff identify a licence that could make oodles of cash then they will try and secure it, either to exploit it themselves or prevent a third party from doing so.

I have no doubts whatsoever that GW will secure the rights to the Jackson/del Toro film version of The Hobbit. And to prevent other companies spoiling the game GW will extend the book rights and, like the present LOTR SBG, mix and match as they feel will make money.

Note that we have things from The Hobbit already in the LOTR SBG rules/scale. I understand that GW had a period when they could not intermix film/book. This was, I understand, to make sure the merchandising & marketing for the film was not diminished with non-film merchandise.

Now, are there any other licences out there that GW could/would exploit? I suspect that there are only two: Star Wars and Warcraft.

But, as has been pointed out, other companies are exploiting these IPs at the moment.

Whilst GW had Black Industries & Sabertooth there was the possibility that we could have seen other IPs in various RPGs, TCGs and boardgames. But long term GW may not extend the FFG licence and bring back in-house these products.

Now history is not a licence as such, but I wonder if GW would ever produce minis to go with their various Warhammer Historical rules?

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 14:51
I don't know the economics of miniature models, but I would suspect you can't spread yourself too thin, creating lots of ranges and discovering that sales becomes splintered, producing a gross increase, but fewer sales per model.

only joking...
05-09-2009, 20:23
I would quite like a Terminator game (based on the massive ground battles) but I could never see GW doing something like that.

Master Stark
06-09-2009, 20:04
unless someone starts pre-production on stories that precede LotR, this franchise must eventually wind down.

Why would it have to wind down?

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 20:12
Fads come and go, and the movies generate both excitement and free marketing (well, not exactly free, since that would be included in the licensing fees).

Brandir
06-09-2009, 20:24
The strength of the LOTR 'franchise' is the body of work, both that available for licence and that which is not.

Professor Tolkien's works are incredibly popular and will continue to be so without the Peter Jackson film version of LOTR or the Jackson/del Toro version of The Hobbit.

I think that LOTR will remain a core system to GW.

There are no properties that come close to LOTR, with the possible exception of Star Wars and potentially Warcraft.

When the Warcraft film is released I am sure that there will be a tabletop miniatures licence available. Maybe the Upper Deck CMG licence precludes a tabletop wargames miniatures game. But let us assume it does not.

With 11.5 million subscribers to the MMORPG, a very popular TCG and a very successful CMG the IP has tremendous recognition within the gaming community. There is an instant block of 10 armies, each with their own special characters, units and fluff. A superb opportunity to make a miniatures game.

A threat to GW? A threat big enough that we see GW obtain that licence?

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 20:34
Warcraft sounds like conflict of interest, as compared to Star Wars.

I'd be surprised if Blizzard management would seriously consider passing it on to GW, without ensuring significant financial commitment in both development, marketing and upfront license fees.

threewolftats
06-09-2009, 20:44
GW is a plc that needs to make profits to pay shareholders (which includes me) a dividend. If staff identify a licence that could make oodles of cash then they will try and secure it, either to exploit it themselves or prevent a third party from doing so.

I have no doubts whatsoever that GW will secure the rights to the Jackson/del Toro film version of The Hobbit. And to prevent other companies spoiling the game GW will extend the book rights and, like the present LOTR SBG, mix and match as they feel will make money.

Note that we have things from The Hobbit already in the LOTR SBG rules/scale. I understand that GW had a period when they could not intermix film/book. This was, I understand, to make sure the merchandising & marketing for the film was not diminished with non-film merchandise.

Now, are there any other licences out there that GW could/would exploit? I suspect that there are only two: Star Wars and Warcraft.

But, as has been pointed out, other companies are exploiting these IPs at the moment.

Whilst GW had Black Industries & Sabertooth there was the possibility that we could have seen other IPs in various RPGs, TCGs and boardgames. But long term GW may not extend the FFG licence and bring back in-house these products.

Now history is not a licence as such, but I wonder if GW would ever produce minis to go with their various Warhammer Historical rules?

I Can see your point.... but surely mongoose publishing proved that Babylon 5 was exploitable.... at least untill they decided to stop producing miniatures and then didn't renew the licence.... I don't see GW doing it,as it would be a competitor to BFG but it is/was a viable licence....

as far as starwars and warcraft are concerned...meh!

Brandir
06-09-2009, 21:05
It is a question of scale.

Starship combat games are not very lucrative. Babylon 5 was not a threat.

The only IP out there that could threaten GW are Star Wars & Warcraft. But only if done on a large scale. Fortunately for GW there is no company out there that comes close to GW's scale and have GW's ability to dominate the market.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 21:24
While Lucas is renowned for merchandising every aspect of Star Wars, he could pass it to a toy company with enough resources to mass market it. Once you made the miniatures, you need marketing to stir up interest and a distribution chain. But that should have been done during the launch of the Phantom Menace.

If a company thought their return on investment worth it, they could distribute it through chains like Walmarts, since Star Wars is a recognizable Trademark. The rules would be rather simplistic, however.

Veloxnex
06-09-2009, 21:34
You do know where warcraft came from...

Blizzard approached GW to make a pc game based on warhammer and were told to get lost, so they made up their own story.

Funny cuz i imagine gw were kicking themselves as wow did so well....

stonehorse
06-09-2009, 23:44
You do know where warcraft came from...

Blizzard approached GW to make a pc game based on warhammer and were told to get lost, so they made up their own story.

Funny cuz i imagine gw were kicking themselves as wow did so well....

I like to think that the higher up's kick themselves to sleep every time they see the WoW TV advert...

Venkh
07-09-2009, 01:09
I could see GW going for an Elric/Moorcock franchise if it was ever made into a movie. Not on the same scale as LOTR. Perhaps a limited edition release like spacehulk.

They have done Eternal champions/Melniboneans and Pan-Tangians before after all.

threewolftats
07-09-2009, 03:47
I could see GW going for an Elric/Moorcock franchise if it was ever made into a movie. Not on the same scale as LOTR. Perhaps a limited edition release like spacehulk.

They have done Eternal champions/Melniboneans and Pan-Tangians before after all.

i thought mongoose were already doing something with elric.... aren't they??

Condottiere
07-09-2009, 05:58
What prevents me from buying LotR models is that they look incompatible with Warhammer Fantasy, otherwise I'd have loaded up on pikemen.

Draquenoire
07-09-2009, 06:11
I would love to see a table top version of FFXI, except I'd want it to be actual armies, like the Federation of Windurst fighting Yagudo, like the crystal war stuff.

I can't see it happening though.

Ever

I completely agree. FFXI has a very compelling story and the Crystal War would be a fantastic time period to recreate. There would be eight armies (if you include Jeuno) ready to go with several more that could be easily added. Sadly it will never happen. Damn shame too.

Verm1s
07-09-2009, 10:00
With... a very successful CMG... A superb opportunity to make a miniatures game.

I think I'm missing something here.

Brandir
07-09-2009, 10:28
The WOW Minis released by Upper Deck has been a tremendous success for them.

Of course, much of this success could have been driven by WOW MMORPG players chasing loot cards .....

dlantoub
07-09-2009, 20:26
I've always wanted a properly scaled star trek spaceship game (no, NOT micro machines, PPP, or that silly pop-out card game), the sheer range of models and different races that could be produced is huge, lots of different things in-show would translate well into wargaming.

I remember there was a really old Star Trek ruleset for strategic gaming. However it might have been the pop out card thing you hated. I remember seeing it in my old gaming club. As far as I understood it was "properly scaled" However you needed to move all the tables out of the classroom in order to have a large enough playing surface.

Verm1s
07-09-2009, 21:44
The WOW Minis released by Upper Deck has been a tremendous success for them.

Of course, much of this success could have been driven by WOW MMORPG players chasing loot cards .....

So is there much incentive for them to start another miniatures game?

Brandir
07-09-2009, 21:58
So is there much incentive for them to start another miniatures game?

I don't know. Is there? Upper Deck are a 'collectable' company so I doubt very much that they will move into tabletop miniatures at the moment.

But who knows in the future? Or if another company gains a suitable licence?

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 06:09
I don't think the present time is appropiate to start such a new venture. While a lot of IT successful IT companies seem to start off during economic downturns, once the economy restarts, there is usually plenty of room for expansion. Miniatures tend to remain a niche market, so you do have to figure out if you can carve yourself a slice of the pie, and if you can survive on it.

Master Stark
08-09-2009, 16:18
Fads come and go

Can't argue with that.

I'd find it a bit of a stretch to consider the most popular and endearing fantasy saga in history a 'fad' though.

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 20:21
It probably has reached it's peak, and will coast along until after the Hobbit. People will continue to read the primary books.

But it's actually LotR as a TTG, that I meant.

Whitehorn
08-09-2009, 20:39
Dragonlance: Ravenloft please. *Stares at avatar*

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 20:46
You want GW to acquire the licence from Hasbro to make a tabletop game of Dragonlance?

Brandir
08-09-2009, 22:44
Or perhaps Hasbro will take over GW and then we will see Star Wars and D&D Minis in our local games Workshop?

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 22:46
In this market segment of toys, wouldn't that be like Microsoft acquiring Apple?

Brandir
08-09-2009, 23:00
In this market segment of toys, wouldn't that be like Microsoft acquiring Apple?

No.

Hasbo has a market capitalisation of approx 2500 million, GW 90 million.

MS is 130 billion to Apple's 90 billion.

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 23:11
I meant in the sense of how many major players are operating in the RPG/CCG/TTG segment, who'd be left in a position to dispute market share.

Brandir
08-09-2009, 23:25
Are WotC/Hasbro and GW in direct competition? There is some crossover between the RPG, CMG and TTG markets but I'm not too sure that WotC/Hasbro is a direct rival to GW as MS & Apple are.

Hmm - you have made me think.

Perhaps rather than GW secure another IP to exploit like LOTR we will see GW's IP exploited more by other licensees? WAR is an obvious example. Another example is FFG. Perhaps GW could license WH40K fluff to Hasbro and we will see Space Marine Transformers and Monopoly set in the Warhammer World.

And if we are really lucky we will see a Nagash Mr Potato Head and Morathi mounted on Pinkie Pie.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 05:54
Unless they license it to Hustler or Penthouse, in which case we'll see Morathi mounted in another way.

While they might not be part of the same exact niche, CCG/TTG/RPG compete for the same financial slice of your monthly budget from a limited demographic. I don't include PC and console games because that would make the equation too complex.

blongbling
09-09-2009, 15:55
Perhaps GW could license WH40K fluff to Hasbro and we will see Space Marine Transformers and Monopoly set in the Warhammer World.

And if we are really lucky we will see a Nagash Mr Potato Head and Morathi mounted on Pinkie Pie.

and that's the reason why GW is really strict when it comes to licensing its stuff so this doesn't happen

Crazy Harborc
09-09-2009, 20:38
Unless they license it to Hustler or Penthouse, in which case we'll see Morathi mounted in another way.

While they might not be part of the same exact niche, CCG/TTG/RPG compete for the same financial slice of your monthly budget from a limited demographic. I don't include PC and console games because that would make the equation too complex.

Mumble, mumble.......you said it first....classic reading.

I am still amazed that role playing is still around....Then, that's just me.

The names of the top companies will change. It will take time. But then time does NOT stand still.

I guess I am an old fuddy duddy. I do wargaming, what I do spend goes towards historical rules, suppliments, minies and accessories.

What I used to spend at a certain company now is cut back to half the amount or less. Funny thing.....I get just as many goodies as far as numbers of each.....half or less of the total money I used to spend.;)