PDA

View Full Version : Special characters without model



Boss Zagstruk
02-09-2009, 10:19
GW has now intergrated special characters into rulebooks. I think being able to take special characters more openly is great. They add alot to an army and can help a theme. I dont take a special character to power game or anything however if i like one and can theme a list ill take one. However GW seems to be creating more special characters yet making less metals to represent them. Personally i feel its kind of frustrating especially when some models are hard to represent. Sadly i arnt amazingly creative with green stuff and cant scuplt :( (im trying atm, baby steps tho). How do you feel about this current trend from GW.

Im waiting for the day i can paint up Kholek Suneater and then paint 8 dragon ogres and 2 shaggoths. Will that ever happen probably not :(

zoggin-eck
02-09-2009, 12:02
Well, the alternative to them printing rules for characters they haven't yet made, or never will, is of course not writing them at all and just having three or so characters an army, or the same ones that already have figures.

You can't expect them the release every single model with each new book, I think we get enough as it is.

Sheena Easton
02-09-2009, 12:16
If anything, they are making more SC models than they used to - the 4th / 5th Ed WE army book is still waiting for 3/4 of its SC minis, most O&G, Chaos, HE & DE SC's from previous editions didn't get models...

mrtn
02-09-2009, 13:22
the 4th / 5th Ed WE army book is still waiting for 3/4 of its SC minis...I'd stop waiting if I were you. :)

On topic, yes, I'd like some more models. Especially for the more unusual models, like Valkia.

Keller
02-09-2009, 15:16
For the most part, I don't care whether special characters get specific models. They tend to be great casts, but I am more than happy to represent them with a standard Lord model, if one is close enough.

Karl Franz, Kurt Helborg, etc would all be represented by one of my mounted elector count models, should I ever decide to take them.

On the otherhand, though, I do like using some of the special character models to represent ordinary characters, just becuase the models are that nice. However, with the costs of this wonderful hobby only going up, I am not in any hurry to run out and buy a $20-30US model that can be represented by something I already have.

E-Dog
02-09-2009, 15:29
I'd be happy with some White Dwarf articles with conversion ideas/examples. But a Valkia model would be nice.

siphon101
02-09-2009, 15:34
what I noticed GW doing is actually releasing MORE special character models, to be used as regular models too.

6 new vampire models were released with the new VC army book. 5 of them were special character models (vlad, isabella, konrad, mounted mannfred, unmounted mannfred). Only one (the winged vampire) was a generic character.

Same with daemons. There are no herald models at all, but skulltaker, epidemius and the masque can be used as such.

Izram
02-09-2009, 15:38
I don't like that they make special models for SCs at all to begin with. I prefer to convert all my heroes and lords, including SCs; I don't like that when they make a model, people get used to that particular representation and don't like it when you claim that another model is representing the SC.

I like it when a model comes out that is easily converted, i.e. not all one big metal piece and not a complicated assembly with the cuts in odd places. Easily converted models are more appealing to me than a nice, single piece sculpt by GW.

N810
02-09-2009, 15:40
Hopefully the new forgeworld division will fill in the gaps in GW's line of models.

ps. Lizardmen are missing 4 sc models from their book

Keller
02-09-2009, 16:53
I don't like that they make special models for SCs at all to begin with. I prefer to convert all my heroes and lords, including SCs; I don't like that when they make a model, people get used to that particular representation and don't like it when you claim that another model is representing the SC.

I like it when a model comes out that is easily converted, i.e. not all one big metal piece and not a complicated assembly with the cuts in odd places. Easily converted models are more appealing to me than a nice, single piece sculpt by GW.

Thats a great point. A lot of these center-peices of armies, such as special characters, often look much better when converted, and its a shame when people get upset that you don't use the right model. Frankly, I find it curious that people are ok with using a SC model as a regular character, but get bent out of shape when you use anything but the right model for the SC chosen.

Oh well, I never take any SC's anyway.

Agoz
02-09-2009, 17:14
Thats a great point. A lot of these center-peices of armies, such as special characters, often look much better when converted, and its a shame when people get upset that you don't use the right model. Frankly, I find it curious that people are ok with using a SC model as a regular character, but get bent out of shape when you use anything but the right model for the SC chosen.

Oh well, I never take any SC's anyway.

see, I'm annoyed that people take multiple special characters in their games, especially without asking, now, if they took the time to convert and paint up a model to represent the character, I wouldn't insist that they use the stock model, but they don't (at least the people at my shop) they use standard character models to represent individuals who deserve to have a special model, just because the character is more powerful, and that, I'm not okay with.

Edit: also I think its a fitting punishment for someone who uses special characters to use the real model.

Wolf 11x
02-09-2009, 17:15
I just want Mazdamundi.

Geordie Vampire
02-09-2009, 22:09
[QUOTE=siphon101;3914481]

6 new vampire models were released with the new VC army book. 5 of them were special character models (vlad, isabella, konrad, mounted mannfred, unmounted mannfred). Only one (the winged vampire) was a generic character.QUOTE]

I think they released them because they played a large role in the history of the empire. So it makes sense to create models for influencial characters, where as it isnt practical to release every other Orc or WoC character to take a large warband into the empire. But I'm being bias because I play VC

Cypher, the Emperor
02-09-2009, 22:22
I just want Mazdamundi.

But hes the easiest one to convert :confused:

Freman Bloodglaive
02-09-2009, 23:19
I'm going to use the Valten, Chosen of Sigmar (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181840_99060202131_ColValtenChosenMain_873x627.j pg), model to represent Karl Franz on horseback.

He's suitably attired, carries the big hammer and has history in the Empire.

Kalandros
03-09-2009, 03:48
I'd be happy with some White Dwarf articles with conversion ideas/examples. But a Valkia model would be nice.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=3900011a

Just need a better head, better color scheme, better weapon and a different pose for the weapon and its a good Valkia.

The basic idea from using the dark eldar model is good. The Dark Pegasus wings also.

The Red Scourge
03-09-2009, 07:56
Well, the alternative to them printing rules for characters they haven't yet made, or never will, is of course not writing them at all and just having three or so characters an army, or the same ones that already have figures.

You can't expect them the release every single model with each new book, I think we get enough as it is.

I remember a time, when you could have each and every elector count of the empire, along with KF and his penpal the tzarina - not to mention a complete collection of empire wizards both mounted and on foot. And I'm not even getting into the three different knight orders, reiksguard, halfling, dwarves and all manner of curious stuff.

Empire might be all plastic now, but they still need a lot to be complete :)

I don't mind special or named characters. The game is about heroes running around beating up other heroes, while the common man die in droves around them for their country. What I do mind is that these special characters are better than others. I'd like it much better, if they were just hero build examples - and the occasional demi-god to break the rules and be restricted to 5K+ battles :)

Tokugawa100
03-09-2009, 09:28
Theres a fair few Wood Elves characters Id like to see with new models. Ariel for one and a couple of treemen characters.

Keller
03-09-2009, 13:53
I don't mind special or named characters. The game is about heroes running around beating up other heroes, while the common man die in droves around them for their country. What I do mind is that these special characters are better than others. I'd like it much better, if they were just hero build examples - and the occasional demi-god to break the rules and be restricted to 5K+ battles :)

My complaint about special characters is that they really shouldn't be showing up at the point levels that WH is played in. A 2000-3000 point game is little more than a border skirmish, not some massive battle. I really think Karl Franz has better things to do than personally show up for small scale battles, risking his neck for a relatively minor fight. Now if it was a 12K+ epic battle, maybe he can be bothered to make an appearance....

Izram
03-09-2009, 14:31
I think all SCs should have a game-points-limit to be used as well. Not for fluff really, but fo rbalance.

At any level of play, I can't justify NOT taking my Epidemius; he is simply cheaper than a normal hero and I need all the points I can spare at any level. I don't see how GW can have an SC like him; a hero level character with a game-breaking special rule that costs less than a standard hero.

I prefer SCs that are just like normal heros/lords choices in the book, but with a unique (and preferably over-priced) special rule. I hate SCs like the skulltaker, where his specielness is just a heap of standard special rules piled on to one model.

loveless
03-09-2009, 19:20
6 new vampire models were released with the new VC army book. 5 of them were special character models (vlad, isabella, konrad, mounted mannfred, unmounted mannfred). Only one (the winged vampire) was a generic character.

Incorrect. The female vampire is not Isabella, but a generic female vampire, based on John Blanche's artwork of the vampiress with the glass leg armour, based off of a twisted version of Cinderella. This is per numerous reports and an interview with Blanche.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50045&prodId=prod1050096

You'll note she's labeled as an "Aristocratic Vampire".

The "current" Isabella is here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1040026&prodId=prod1140291


Same with daemons. There are no herald models at all, but skulltaker, epidemius and the masque can be used as such.

There is a Khorne Herald on Juggernaught, though it isn't too horribly different from a normal Bloodcrusher, imo.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120051&prodId=prod1170243

---

I doubt there's any legitimate rhyme or reason to determine which characters get models and which ones don't. It could simply fall to the output level for a given release. If they fill the slots with other models, they won't be able to release a model for every Special Character at that time. Look at the IG - Harker and a new Straken are just now being released. We also know that a Changeling model exists somewhere as it shows up on price sheets, but nowhere else.

The main thing is, GW doesn't want to limit its developers by telling them they can only make rules for things that have models (or have a space in the release to make a model kit). This serves a few handy purposes:
1) Allows for more selection in a new army list
2) Encourages Warhammer players to try their hand at converting, which could well lead them to GW's bitz pack service
3) Allows GW to fill up "blank spaces" in the release calendar with extra minis when there is no Codex/Army book to release or when it's the month of a supplemental release (such as Planetstrike or Planetary Empires).

Also remember, if you're having trouble coming up with ideas for units/characters without models, talk to your friends or hit up the forums - chances are that someone will inspire you and help you out with the conversion process.

hwd
04-09-2009, 12:21
The simplest solution would be to get rid of special charaters all together and force people to use normal heroes and to learn to play the game without relying on one model with 10 special rules...

N810
04-09-2009, 14:07
Please, stop trying to Vaniliafy my Warhammer... :eyebrows:

loveless
04-09-2009, 14:19
The simplest solution would be to get rid of special charaters all together and force people to use normal heroes and to learn to play the game without relying on one model with 10 special rules...

...maybe Warhammer Fantasy isn't the game for you. If you go looking for a new one, stay away from Privateer - they don't know what "normal" heroes are :p

The fact is, several special characters "unlock" different army builds - be it the Chaos monster army or a Dark Elf Witch Cult. I suppose you could count that as relying on them, but it's rather necessary for certain lists.

Other times, people want to play the famous characters they've read about in the army book, getting rules that help define why that character is so important. For instance, you couldn't very well make a stand-in Malekith that feels like Malekith should. Similarly, how do you portray the Everchosen of Chaos, the raw power of Manfred von Carstein, or the sorcerous seduction of Morathi? You can't write about amazing characters in an Army Book and then say "too bad, you can't use them!".

If you don't like playing against Special Characters, then don't. However, with their integration into the main army lists, they've often become less overpowered than they were in previous editions.

Drop the perceived stigma from earlier editions and learn to play against an army that contains a model with "10 special rules" ;)

Kalec
05-09-2009, 00:03
The simplest solution would be to get rid of special charaters all together and force people to use normal heroes and to learn to play the game without relying on one model with 10 special rules...

That would be the simplest.

The best would be for you to stop saying stupid things like this.

Freman Bloodglaive
05-09-2009, 02:56
I want to use Neferata (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1040026&prodId=prod1140297) as a death wizard in my Empire.

This guy (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1040026&prodId=prod1140295) in my opinion is one of the best looking vampire models. No silly oversized teeth as near as I can tell.

Special Characters can represent certain defining traits of the army. Luthor Huss embodies the ethos of the warrior priest, Morathi the decadent nature of the Slaanesh following Elves (she can be my Balthazar Gelt stand-in :D ) It's easy to go overboard, but the game would be a little less rich without them.

Agoz
05-09-2009, 03:52
Yes, but why do the special characters have to be so much of a no-brainer? Cheap and effective? I remember when they were overpriced on purpose, and nobody took them, that was only a few years ago, and I miss it.
Personally, I believe that special characters have lost some of their mysticism now that everyone takes them in every game, they just don't seem so special any more.

Kalec
05-09-2009, 20:23
What are all these no-brainer special characters that I keep hearing so much about?

enyoss
06-09-2009, 16:00
Teclis.
Caradryan.
...
Settra :angel:

Agoz
06-09-2009, 16:42
no brainers?
Epidemus
the mask
Skulltaker
Thorek Ironbrow
The dark elf hag special character with something like 6+d3 strength 10 attacks
Teclis
Etc...

w3rm
07-09-2009, 01:55
I don't like that they make special models for SCs at all to begin with. I prefer to convert all my heroes and lords, including SCs; I don't like that when they make a model, people get used to that particular representation and don't like it when you claim that another model is representing the SC.

I like it when a model comes out that is easily converted, i.e. not all one big metal piece and not a complicated assembly with the cuts in odd places. Easily converted models are more appealing to me than a nice, single piece sculpt by GW.

theres a herald on a juggernaut..

Cypher, the Emperor
07-09-2009, 05:19
Is the Brettonia book the only current one with all of its special characters in model form?

Admittedly, there are only three, but still, they are all quality sculpts too.

Condottiere
07-09-2009, 06:49
I think the High Elves have all their current special characters.

Aladauqs
07-09-2009, 12:36
I must say I do think GW has gone a bit overboard with special characters, and I think the idea that popped up since 7th of putting them with the main list means that GW are seeing them as a more integral part of the game, rather than a bit of extra fun put in the back of the book. On the flipside there have been a bunch of great models you can easily use as your other heroes, like Squidface/davy jones man (forget his name) for DE. I haven't exactly been keeping pace with the new books, but I'd love to see a Kholek model just because I'm sure they'd do a great job of it - not that I'd use it, being a beastman player with our horrendously rubbish and overpriced shaggoths.

Talking of beastmen, they're another with all of their special characters in model form.

Crazy Harborc
08-09-2009, 01:49
Since 4th Edition came out, I've known players who converted models to represent special characters. Those models were on the correct size bases for the special characters they were meant to be.

IMHO, it is okay to not blow extra money for a model just to have "the" special character model. When the used model enters the field it is IDed as so and so. Not too likely to be forgotten as to it's being a special character later in the game.

phoenixlaw
08-09-2009, 09:18
My complaint about special characters is that they really shouldn't be showing up at the point levels that WH is played in. A 2000-3000 point game is little more than a border skirmish, not some massive battle. I really think Karl Franz has better things to do than personally show up for small scale battles, risking his neck for a relatively minor fight. Now if it was a 12K+ epic battle, maybe he can be bothered to make an appearance....

This doesnt apply to all of them though, only the top end Lords.
Josef Bugman for example makes perfect sense in smaller games.

phoenixlaw
08-09-2009, 09:24
I think the High Elves have all their current special characters.

Dwarves do too, as do Empire, Brets, Wood Elves and Vampires I think.

loveless
08-09-2009, 14:43
Dwarves do too, as do Empire, Brets, Wood Elves and Vampires I think.

Brettonians and Wood Elves come from the previous edition of "here's a few special characters" as opposed to the current edition of "SPECIAL CHARACTERS!!!!11!", so yes, they both have their 3 :p

Empire and Vampire Counts have models available for everyone, but it's old in some cases. For instance, Volkmar is a rather old model, even though he has to do double-duty as a War Altar. Isabella is only available as the model from 2 editions ago, and really doesn't fit the aesthetic of the current Vampires.
After Vampire Counts, it went downhill.

Daemons miss Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, the Blue Scribes, and the Changeling.
Dark Elves miss Hellebron, Tullaris, and the other upgrade character (my memory slips as to his name).
Warriors of Chaos miss Valkia, Vilitch, Festus, Throgg, and Kholek.
Lizardmen miss Mazamundi and...some others (no interest in Lizards, so I don't really pay attention).

Heck, recent rumours for Skaven seem to give them a lot of special characters with no models as well (depending on the re-releases of old sculpts).

It's a bit intense, but it does give the modelers in this hobby a lot of work to do *nod*.

Onisuzume
08-09-2009, 14:50
Hopefully the new forgeworld division will fill in the gaps in GW's line of models.

ps. Lizardmen are missing 4 sc models from their book
And that's even with the 2 new metal sc models they got...

That chameleon one could be easily converted from a regular chameleon skink afaik. Tetto'eko can be easily converted from the stegadon set (sans palaquin?). Gor'rok looks mostly like a normal scar-vet/oldblood with a different paintjob. While Mazdamundi is pretty simple to converted by sticking a toad upon the steggy's howdah (EotG variant).

Imo its a real pity that Nakai didn't make it as a special character (again).

At least its a huge step up from the last edition with barely any special characters at all (Lizardmen had only two: Kroak and Kroq'Gar, three if you include the lustria campaign book (adding Tehenhauin)).

So imo, we don't have *that* much to complain about.
Except that they should release more of the old models, ofcourse.

TeddyC
09-09-2009, 22:09
they did have a phase of all SCs having a model now they are drifting back. not a bad thing. IMO.

I have the old dark elf book next to me. There are loads of characters in the that never had a model made

Kalec
09-09-2009, 23:04
no brainers?
Epidemus
the mask
Skulltaker
Thorek Ironbrow
The dark elf hag special character with something like 6+d3 strength 10 attacks
Teclis
Etc...

Hellebron a no-brainer? HA

HAHAHAHA

But seriously, no.

That leaves Teclis, Epidemium, The Masque, Skulltaker, and Thorek. 5 special characters out of how many? 60? 70?

There are far, far more balanced and underpowered special characters then there are broken ones. Banning special characters because of Teclis is like banning rares because of the hydra.

Agoz
10-09-2009, 04:31
Hellebron a no-brainer? HA

HAHAHAHA

But seriously, no.

That leaves Teclis, Epidemium, The Masque, Skulltaker, and Thorek. 5 special characters out of how many? 60? 70?

There are far, far more balanced and underpowered special characters then there are broken ones. Banning special characters because of Teclis is like banning rares because of the hydra.

I'm sure there are more overpowered special characters for their price, I just don't have experience playing against them. As for Hellebron, in a blackguard deathstar with the always strikes first banner, she will pretty much always kill anything that even has a remote chance of hurting her, I had to tailor a tyrant with stuff I'd normally never use to kill her, thats something I've never had to do before.

Onisuzume
10-09-2009, 16:14
As for Hellebron, two words: Chakax, Challenge. :p
Lets see how well Hellebron does when she has to strike last, even after great weapons.

loveless
10-09-2009, 17:01
I had to tailor a tyrant with stuff I'd normally never use to kill her, thats something I've never had to do before.

I think your Hellebron problem is more of a factor of you playing Ogres than your opponent playing Hellebron.

Agoz
10-09-2009, 18:07
I think your Hellebron problem is more of a factor of you playing Ogres than your opponent playing Hellebron.

on the contrary, after tailoring my tyrant, I won that game, heavily.

Ghost Warrior
10-09-2009, 18:22
SC are great, and they shouldn't have points limit on them. Really, most of the SCs are lord level and most of the hero ones are quite expensive but some of the Scs are rather entertining, like my malus darkblade killing my 10 man unit of cold one and proceeding to kill a warshrine

The True Mooseman
10-09-2009, 19:09
Dwarves do too, as do Empire, Brets, Wood Elves and Vampires I think.

Also O&G and OK. That's right, the Ogres have a mighty two special characters.

crushinbeats
10-09-2009, 21:34
I play a Troll army, and I simply must use Trogg or I can't take the trolls as core.

No model for him, so I did the best I could to sculpt him from his picture in the book.

Of course I converted nearly every model in my army, so was no big thang.

No dawn
11-09-2009, 19:58
Also O&G and OK. That's right, the Ogres have a mighty two special characters.


A whole 2?:D

Darth Alec
11-09-2009, 20:09
They do have a lot of unit strength.

N810
11-09-2009, 20:43
Don't they have some Gobnar SC's ?

TeddyC
11-09-2009, 22:30
OKs SCs

Greasus Goldtooth (565 pts) and Skarg the Slaughterer (400 pts).

thats it.... nuttin else

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 16:43
And lets not forget that's the 2nd incarnation of Skrag the Slaughterer.
The original one (http://www4.osk.3web.ne.jp/~hasinaka/skrag.jpg) got killed by some chaos dwarfs who were really upset with Skrag slaughtering their entire city.

hlaine larkin
12-09-2009, 23:55
i like the fact tbh- i like making my own models.

my gor-rok for example has a chaos mace-pick head, on the old metal tempel guard body with a part of the slaans awning thing as a big shield-always draws attetnion

hlaine larkin
12-09-2009, 23:56
Hellebron a no-brainer? HA

HAHAHAHA

But seriously, no.

That leaves Teclis, Epidemium, The Masque, Skulltaker, and Thorek. 5 special characters out of how many? 60? 70?

There are far, far more balanced and underpowered special characters then there are broken ones. Banning special characters because of Teclis is like banning rares because of the hydra.


teclis is fun. i killed him in my past 3 games vs high elves with a 25 point magic item- blood statuette of spite. what you have to remember is all the people have a downside-

ANY elf character- T3 (except maybe malus) and teclis T2

O&G'sRule
13-09-2009, 16:37
As for Hellebron, two words: Chakax, Challenge. :p
Lets see how well Hellebron does when she has to strike last, even after great weapons.

thats why you put an assassin in her unit

Onisuzume
13-09-2009, 16:50
Which would just delay the inevitable (one assassins is one turn delay).
Not to mention that, with a bit of bad luck, it might cause the unit to flee.

O&G'sRule
13-09-2009, 18:37
maybe maybe but even if the assassin dies that leaves hellebron to rip chakax unit to shreds for a turn, leaving combat resolution probably very much in the DE favour, maybe even chuck the unit champion at chakax whilst the assassin and hellebron destroy his unit

Weemo
13-09-2009, 19:00
i think not making models for special char's doesnt make economic sense,

they pay a staff at HQ x amount of money to write a book, which includes special chars,

they dont make the model but the rules are very popular, eg blue scribes, kholek, valkia.

this can even put some people off, eg "why do that army when i have to convert my own model which won't look as good!"

however if they did, then much more people would buy them, if they made a decent kholek model (basically anything like the pic in the book) they could sell him for 35 and make an absolute bomb. I know 3-4 people in my store who want to play a kholek army imagine this on a global scale?!

I do find it very annoying when there are no rules for special chars, however GW still produce stunning models so im not complaining too much.

Jiggy
13-09-2009, 19:03
if they made a decent kholek model
Kelly said they will.

Trakk3r
16-09-2009, 00:04
You can't expect them the release every single model with each new book, I think we get enough as it is.

Maybe, but what they need to do is stop adding characters and ditching old ones that DO have models to represent them.

Zacharias, Crom and many others im sure of anyone?

N810
16-09-2009, 00:41
Wait a minute.....

Didn't they say they where a model company first,
and a game company second ? (more or less)