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the_picto
02-09-2009, 13:48
Could someone help me with the rules for challenges. I was playing against a daemon army and the following complicated combat came up.

.......VDD
....BBBDD
GGGGVDD
GGGGGHD
.........DDS
.........ZZZZZ
.........ZZZZZ
V=Vampire
G=Graveguard
Z=Zombie
B=Bloodcrusher
S=Skulltaker
D=Daemonette
H=Herald

Essentally, the daemon player wanted to know if Skulltaker could issue a challenge to the vampire at the top. Everyone around was of the opinion that he couldn't, due to challengers and challengees having to be in combat with each other's unit rather that just part of the same overall combat. But, nobody could actually find the rules that state this. Were they right and could someone point out where in the rule book it says this?

In the end we went with this ruling, I lost combat anyway and my army died horribly. God damn siren song:mad:

theunwantedbeing
02-09-2009, 14:08
Challenges are never issued to specific individuals.
So no, the skulltaker could not issue the challenge to the vampire at the top.

He has to issue a challenge to all models capable of accepting/declining a challenge.

the_picto
02-09-2009, 14:27
The way he said it, skulltaker had an ability to force a specific model to accept, like Wulfrik does.

Could the vampire have accepted skultaker's challenge, or was skulltaker not allowed to issue one because he was only fighting zombies?

Nurgling Chieftain
02-09-2009, 14:34
Skulltaker issues a challenge which can be met by any character on the other side of the combat. As the top vampire does not have a unit to hide behind, the challenge cannot be refused. The vampire player must select a character in that close combat (or unit champion if one is in the fight) to battle Skulltaker. Note that the character meeting the challenge does NOT have to be anywhere near Skulltaker, just in the same sprawling close combat! Once the challenge is accepted, the character accepting the challenge is moved into base contact with Skulltaker. (If that's not possible, Skulltaker is moved into base contact with the model that accepted the challenge.)

siphon101
02-09-2009, 14:37
challenges work like this:

1) any character (or unit champion) engaged IN THE CLOSE COMBAT may issue a challenge

2) any character (or unit champion) engaged IN THE CLOSE COMBAT may accept the challenge

3) if the player responding to the challenge elects to refuse the challenge, the challenging player may send any character engaged IN THE CLOSE COMBAT to the back ranks.

Skulltaker is involved in the combat. The vampires are involved in the combat. They are all in the fighting rank. Skulltaker may challenge and the vampires may accept.

the_picto
02-09-2009, 14:57
Thanks for clearing that up. That's completely the opposite of what everyone thought.

EvC
02-09-2009, 15:31
Yep, that's usually how people think it works when they haven't read the rules (or additional FAQ) properly.

kyinpie
03-09-2009, 00:13
i thought i'd point out that, its up to you who accepts the challenge, the opponent cant choose who he is challanging!! otherwise as siphon101 said. as long as the challanger and the the charecter/unit champ accepting is in the fighting rank and part of the same combat its fine even if they are quite far apart as in the example above!

nosferatu1001
03-09-2009, 02:57
The obvious exception being Wulfrik, who can challenge a specific character.

Loq-Gor
03-09-2009, 03:58
Yes Skulltaker cannot force a specific model to accept, as far as I know only Wulfric can do that.

jaxom
04-09-2009, 23:46
So in the case where the unit with the character accepting the challenge is not anywhere in b2b with the unit with the challenging model, how do you determine who moves and do you literally pull one of the models out of its unit? Does that unit then appropriately back-fill using a normal r&f model? Is there a citation for page or FAQ for this please?

Nurgling Chieftain
05-09-2009, 00:27
The model meeting the challenge is moved into contact with the model issuing the challenge. If that's not possible, the original challenge issuer is moved instead.
Is there a citation for page or FAQ for this please?Too obvious to meaningfully cite; it's right there in the rules for challenges, exactly where you'd expect it to be.

jaxom
05-09-2009, 14:56
Let me rephrase then. If I told you I was going to pick up the whole unit that the character was in and move them all into b2b with the challenger, you would tell me I was nuts. Characters only leave units in specific cirumstances according to the rules. I am on vacation this weekend and have no rulebooks so I can't cite page on that. The point was to ask if the ruling on challenges is strong enough to override the limitation that a character who has joined unit is considered part of that unit and that units do *not* move. I know of no wording which would override that.

nosferatu1001
05-09-2009, 15:17
What part of Nurglings post was unclear? You move the challenged model into b2b.

Not the unit. Just the model.

Shadowfax
06-09-2009, 08:49
I think the confusion comes from the fact that if the Skulltaker were to rank up face-to-face with the top Vampire, he would seemingly be forcefully joining the unit of Daemonettes (displacing the one in the top left corner of the diagram, but leaving the one besides it still in formation).

I don't really grasp how this works either. Would the Skulltaker just automatically join the Daemonettes? If not, the Daemonettes would seem to be forced into an illegal formation (4 in their front rank, 5 in their rear rank) and would also be screwed out of any possible pursuit by having to stop immediately as they touch the non-joined Skulltaker.

nosferatu1001
06-09-2009, 11:04
You could move the vamp at the top into the Zombie unit at the bottom, where Skulltaker is currently. When the challenge is over one will be dead, so either it won't make a diference (vamp dead) or you move the vamp back to his unit.

Shadowfax
06-09-2009, 15:50
It's not acceptable to assume that one of them will be dead. They could ring blows off of each others armour.

But your solution still works if you're allowed to move the character(s) back to their respective units once the challenge concludes. I guess that's fine. Come to think of it, isn't there a line somewhere in the rulebook or the FAQs that says it's not even necessary to move the characters if it will cause problems, and that it's perfectly reasonable to just imagine them confronting in the scrum of the combat?

Atrahasis
06-09-2009, 15:50
If they can't move to touch each other by remaining in the units they're in, then you don't move them at all. You use your imagination.

HellRaid
07-09-2009, 00:14
Come to think of it, isn't there a line somewhere in the rulebook or the FAQs that says it's not even necessary to move the characters if it will cause problems, and that it's perfectly reasonable to just imagine them confronting in the scrum of the combat?

That's how we always play it. There's no point in physically moving them really, it just takes up time and effort! :p

Sarah S
07-09-2009, 00:16
They should just 100% abstract the challenge and not move anyone ever.

EldarBishop
07-09-2009, 03:02
Yes Skulltaker cannot force a specific model to accept, as far as I know only Wulfric can do that.

And any Bretonnian character with a Guantlet of the Duel.

It is nice to move opposing characters in b2b... for effect. But it's not at all necessary to do so.

Shadowfax
07-09-2009, 03:44
That's how we always play it. There's no point in physically moving them really, it just takes up time and effort! :p
Well, there may actually be consequences to the movement sometimes, I think.

Like in the following diagram. The bases marked as 1, 2, and 3 are all characters. 1 and 2 are allies in the same unit, 3 is their enemy. If 3 challenges, and 2 accepts, 1 will not be able to make any attacks in the combat.

Moving/displacing one character for another could affect who gets to attack elsewhere. I don't think the blue player would be able to move any of the challenged characters in the given diagram, because they're all in btb already, but that's beside the point.

Nurgling Chieftain
07-09-2009, 04:29
And any Bretonnian character with a Guantlet of the Duel.No, that item merely prevents a challenge from being refused, you can still throw a unit champion his way and so on. Heck, Skulltaker's "ability" is merely a disadvantage: he must issue and accept challenges, but the opponent is not constrained in how they respond!

Milgram
07-09-2009, 07:34
You could move the vamp at the top into the Zombie unit at the bottom, where Skulltaker is currently.

zombies cannot be joined by characters.

just leave the models in place. I think I remember that FAQ entry too that says if there is no possibility to get the two characters in b2b to each other, you do not move them.

I fail to see a reason or a rule to move a character into another unit. mind you that the challenged model could be a unit champion and therefore might not leave the unit - or even better, join another unit. also there would be other issues with leaving the unit: negating ranks, demonic locus, stubborn wood elves and everything else that a unit or character might profit from when the character is enclosed.

woodulikeanother
07-09-2009, 07:56
dont you have to be in base contact with a character/champion that can accept a challenge to issue one yourself?

Nurgling Chieftain
07-09-2009, 08:10
No, you don't. The only requirement is that both models be in the same combat - no matter how far removed. If, for example, you're counting wounds caused by both characters for the same fight, they can potentially challenge each other.

the_picto
07-09-2009, 11:22
Do the models have to be facing each other? People keep mentioning skulltaker having to join the daemonettes or the vampire joining the zombies and neither of these things being possible. But, skulltaker could easyly be placed in the vampire's flank.

Atrahasis
07-09-2009, 11:42
No, the models do not hve be facing each other.

The rulebook lays out the preference for moving models to satisfy he challenge. If neither of those options is viable, then neither model moves and we use our imagination.

EldarBishop
07-09-2009, 14:02
No, that item merely prevents a challenge from being refused, you can still throw a unit champion his way and so on. Heck, Skulltaker's "ability" is merely a disadvantage: he must issue and accept challenges, but the opponent is not constrained in how they respond!

I merely overlooked the important word/phrase... specific model. :p