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John1979
02-09-2009, 16:54
The Black Library 'Coming Soon' section shows a Horus Heresy release for September 2010 called ''NEMESIS'' any ideas what topic this book will cover?

Urath
02-09-2009, 16:57
Welcome to Warseer :)

Well, it's James Swallow so it could be either Blood Angels or Sisters of Silence, likely the latter considering the title. It's weird, Swallow can write the Sisters well but he's butchering everything Blood Angel related that's touched.

grissom2006
02-09-2009, 17:02
Theirs been the odd hintings at their being a Nemesis in the background in a few forums with many different takes on what it will mean or who. I common trend has brought up Fulgrm a few times and him having a Nemisis so maybe we might find out who has it in for him.

I'd like it to be a Sisters of Silence book as they haven't been explored yet in any real depth along with the Custodes.

Urath
02-09-2009, 17:23
I've not heard Fulgrim mentioned? Fulgrim's nemesis was Ferrus Manus, who was killed. If it's a Blood Angels book, it could refer to Signus Prime and the Bloodthirtser - Sanguinius' nemesis.

Captain Corallis
02-09-2009, 17:47
Aye, I had the same idea as signus as there has already been great coverage of some of the rivals in the HH whilst others make little sense fluff wise.
The Daemon-Sanguinius Idea works as it is Swallow and this book would set up for the Siege of Terra, it's also an integra part of the BA's Mythos so they can't leave it out.

Cpt Corallis

StefDa
02-09-2009, 18:40
I would prefer if they would chuck out a book covering one of the loyalist legions during the Heresy. Say, Blood Angels or someone. They've covered the Dark Angels twice, the Luna wolves a good deal, and the Emperor's Children and Death Guard had their share. in addition, two Thousand Sons books are coming out in '10.

Urath
02-09-2009, 19:52
Thousand Sons AND Space Wolves ;)

Israfael
02-09-2009, 19:55
I would prefer if they would chuck out a book covering one of the loyalist legions during the Heresy. Say, Blood Angels or someone. They've covered the Dark Angels twice, the Luna wolves a good deal, and the Emperor's Children and Death Guard had their share. in addition, two Thousand Sons books are coming out in '10.

The Dark Angels are loyalist - as for the "two" Thousand Sons books coming out; it's only one - the other is a Space Wolves book just involving said legion.

Also, a Raven Guard audio book is being released soon. While it isn't a novel - it's still something.

Urath
02-09-2009, 20:12
So far, this roughly the level of coverage each Legion/Faction has had. Major is having it's own novel, or being in several novels/shorts:

Major Traitor:
Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus
Emperor's Children
Death Guard
Alpha Legion
Thousand Sons

Minor Traitor:
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Night Lords


Major Loyalist:
Dark Angels
Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Space Wolves
Imperial Fists

Minor Loyalist:
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Raven Guard

Londinium
02-09-2009, 23:49
James Swallow said over on the BL forums that it wasn't about the Blood Angels in the Signus clusture, so god knows what it is, it's one of those ambigious titles like 'BFTA' so it could really be anything.

Urath
03-09-2009, 00:47
Hmm.

Nemsis, as in "Nemesis Force Weapons". Perhaps the Sisters of Silence used them?

grissom2006
03-09-2009, 08:44
Hmm.

Nemsis, as in "Nemesis Force Weapons". Perhaps the Sisters of Silence used them?

How as the Sisters of Silence are psychic nulls??

Industrial Propaganda
03-09-2009, 09:43
Perhaps a book about the Adeptus Custodes ? They use similar weapons as Grey Knights (Spears with combinated bolter). Don't know if they are psykers nemesis force weapons too ?

grissom2006
03-09-2009, 09:51
Perhaps a book about the Adeptus Custodes ? They use similar weapons as Grey Knights (Spears with combinated bolter). Don't know if they are psykers nemesis force weapons too ?

Could do would be one book i'd certainly be wanting and i always look at their weapons and think back to the original Grey Knight models as the weapons had inbuilt Bolters.

N0-1_H3r3
03-09-2009, 10:07
Perhaps a book about the Adeptus Custodes ? They use similar weapons as Grey Knights (Spears with combinated bolter). Don't know if they are psykers nemesis force weapons too ?
The Custodes aren't specifically psychic, and their weapons (a power halberd with a bolter attached) are called Guardian Spears.

Charax
03-09-2009, 10:15
The Custodes aren't specifically psychic, and their weapons (a power halberd with a bolter attached) are called Guardian Spears.

Exactly, and it would be a little stupid to go "We're going to name this book "Nemesis" after the weapons that a force which hasn't been founded yet will use which are in certain design aspects similar to the weapons used by some of the protagonists of this novel"

I'd go with Sisters of Silence. There hasn't been a book specifically about them yet and they're sorely in need of fleshing out.

Bitterman
03-09-2009, 10:36
So far, this roughly the level of coverage each Legion/Faction has had. Major is having it's own novel, or being in several novels/shorts:

Major Traitor:
Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus
Emperor's Children
Death Guard
Alpha Legion
Thousand Sons

Minor Traitor:
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Night Lords


Major Loyalist:
Dark Angels
Iron Hands
Ultramarines
Space Wolves
Imperial Fists

Minor Loyalist:
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Raven Guard

I´d add Iron Warriors to the Minor Traitor list.

(y)

reds8n
03-09-2009, 10:40
Also from the BL site...when pressed for some info abou Nemesis..


Because the book is a year away from release, obviously I can't tell you too much. What I can say is that the Editorial Team met yesterday to talk about the synopsis and as part of the discussions we ran through possible ways you could kill a Primarch.

I'm not necessarily saying that the discussion was directly related to the plot of Nemesis, but I thought that little insight into our editorial process might be useful.

fantomex
03-09-2009, 10:51
Ok, my guesses:



Not Sisters Of Silence - Kinda hard to have an involved book when 99.9% of your characters don't ever speak. Sign language could be used, but I'm not sure it would be done. More short stories though.
Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists - There's a Nemesis situation right there!
Iron Hands - Given the fact that so far the books aren't (totally) linear, I'd say there could be a chance of seeing the discovery of the chapter, first meetings with Fulgrim, etc..
Blood Angels - Sanguinius does have a bit of a nemesis in the daemon which gave him a beatdown..
Word Bearers vs Ultramarines - Neither have been featured highly..

Who knows? We'll just have to wait and see. Though for one I'm far too restless.. Write faster, Black Library!

reds8n
03-09-2009, 11:02
They keep saying it's something somewhat leftfield.....so....

..what I'm wondering if it might maybe be from a non Imperium perspective ? A book from the point of view of one of the conquered races/civilisations or a chaos influenced force. The chaos gods tried to stop the Primarchs during their creation, presumably they must have tried to do something else about them prior to teh fall of Horus.

pookie
03-09-2009, 13:20
Eldar/Slaneesh - if its left field, why not?

Urath
03-09-2009, 13:34
How as the Sisters of Silence are psychic nulls??

Perhaps the weapons worked on different principles back then? As in, they weren't powered by psychic potential, but were designed to slay psykers.

I don't know, I doubt it somehow.

But anyway. Good find, Satan (made me laugh) and I remember Abnett once saying they'd like to expand the series, to make it more of a Warhammer30K type thing, where there were books about conquered alien races or from the perspectives of aliens etc.

It could be.

But as Swallow said they were talking about "Ways to kill a Primarch", couldn't it just be an assassination attempt on Horus? I mean, they've made up stuff on the spot before such as "Battle for the Abyss", so why not this?

Xisor
03-09-2009, 20:55
I still say something somehow relating to the Grey Knights based largely upon:
- Flight of the Eisenstein
- Gravato's artwork in Collected Visions (specifically his ones of Garro and also of Ula, Doom of Heroes)

But then that's probably wrong too.

andyg2006
03-09-2009, 21:09
IMHO, there's too much Grey Knights stuff in 40k novels at the moment anyway.
Given that the Word Bearers weren't in the picture list of Traitor Chapter, is it too much to hope for that Nemesis is about them meddling with something and it tries to kill their Primarch (i.e. it doesn't succeed -'cos we know Lorgar makes it to the seige of Terra- but maybe it's the thing which tips Lorgar over the edge and right into full-on Chaos worshipping?).

Damocles8
03-09-2009, 21:56
Maybe it involves the Night Lords?

ctsteel
03-09-2009, 22:48
The imperium's ultimate nemesis in that time was Horus, so perhaps it's a return to him and a progression of the war's timeline. Perhaps with some assassination mission with the intent of killing him, hence the editorial discussion.

will564752
03-09-2009, 23:10
IMHO, there's too much Grey Knights stuff in 40k novels at the moment anyway.
Given that the Word Bearers weren't in the picture list of Traitor Chapter, is it too much to hope for that Nemesis is about them meddling with something and it tries to kill their Primarch (i.e. it doesn't succeed -'cos we know Lorgar makes it to the seige of Terra- but maybe it's the thing which tips Lorgar over the edge and right into full-on Chaos worshipping?).

I hope its not about the Word Bearers, as any Word Bearers novel should be written by Anthony Reynolds without exception! :)

And I believe that Mr. Swallow himself on the BL forums stated that its nothing to do with the Iron Cage incident, Blood Angels/Signus Cluster (Although he said he plans to write this later on), the Sisters of Silence or the Nemesis Chapter.

My Bets are on the Night Lords to-be-honest. Nemesis maybe refering to Night Haunter's split personality? (Implied in Lord of the Night)

Londinium
04-09-2009, 00:07
Also the fact that the Night Haunter is the only Primarch that Rogal Dorn admitted actually being afraid of, the Dark King/Lightning Tower set up the Dorn/Curze animosity quite well really. Beforehand it was more like Curze lashed out at Dorn but it could have been anyone unfortunate enough to have been in Dorn's position but thanks to the fleshing out of their story, it has more depth to it now, enough to suggest that Curze could be titled Dorn's 'Nemesis'...well along with Perturabo.

However as far as I'm aware the Night Lords are well away from the Imperial Fists during the Heresy who are based on Terra, which kinda rules this idea out and makes my post rather redundant.

will564752
04-09-2009, 10:08
Also the fact that the Night Haunter is the only Primarch that Rogal Dorn admitted actually being afraid of, the Dark King/Lightning Tower set up the Dorn/Curze animosity quite well really. Beforehand it was more like Curze lashed out at Dorn but it could have been anyone unfortunate enough to have been in Dorn's position but thanks to the fleshing out of their story, it has more depth to it now, enough to suggest that Curze could be titled Dorn's 'Nemesis'...well along with Perturabo.

However as far as I'm aware the Night Lords are well away from the Imperial Fists during the Heresy who are based on Terra, which kinda rules this idea out and makes my post rather redundant.

:D Although that doesn't stop my idea working! That 'Nemesis' refers to Curze's split personality and what each one represents.

Damocles8
04-09-2009, 17:43
he's gonna be on a jungle planet.....and some random assassin's gonna go hunt him down...up river......

Urath
05-09-2009, 12:31
The imperium's ultimate nemesis in that time was Horus, so perhaps it's a return to him and a progression of the war's timeline. Perhaps with some assassination mission with the intent of killing him, hence the editorial discussion.

As I thought too.

But I like the idea based upon Kurze's schizophrenia to be the most entertaining by far. I fear though, as Swallow has demonstrated an ample lack of talent (Flight of the Eisenstein excused).

Londinium
05-09-2009, 17:55
Flight of the Eisenstein was better than his Blood Angels books if it helps.

Urath
05-09-2009, 18:35
Yeah, Eisenstein was indeed good.

FlashGordon
05-09-2009, 23:39
For some reason i thought of Fulgrim vs Guilliman but thats in the "far future". Soo.. naa..

khirsath
06-09-2009, 11:29
I'd say Alpharion vs Guilliman better fits that title

Though it could be Curze vs Dorn what with the build up of two related short stories

My bet's on it being the greatest rivalry of all the primarchs. Alpharion vs Omegan :D

will564752
06-09-2009, 12:26
I'd say Alpharion vs Guilliman better fits that title

That was Post-Heresy though.


My bet's on it being the greatest rivalry of all the primarchs. Alpharion vs Omegan :D

I have it from Mr. Abnett himself that there are currently no plans for another Alpha Legion HH novel, although he said at some point in the future it is likely.

So 'Nemesis' does not refer to Alpharius Vs. Omegon or Alpharius Vs. Guilliman.

NightrawenII
06-09-2009, 14:09
Also from the BL site...when pressed for some info abou Nemesis..

how kill a Primarch?
This can be about
M'sheen vs. Konrad Curze
Guiliman vs. Alpharius
Jaghatai Khan vs. Dark Eldar.

sydbridges
06-09-2009, 14:26
Flight of the Eisenstein was better than his Blood Angels books if it helps.

I thought the third BA novel was reasonably enjoyable, but that might have been because it largely put the Space Marine characters into an unfamiliar element - political dealings with each other. I haven't read the first two, but I've heard nothing but negative reviews about them.

FotE was decent, although it isn't one of my favorite books in the HH series.

I prefer not to remember Faith and Fire.

So, I'm not really looking forward to Nemesis (which will presumably involve a Primarch either being killed or someone attempting to kill one, given the course of the discussion), but I'll pick it up and read it, if only for the sake of filling out my HH novel collection.

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:28
Yeah, I'm still sticking to the belief that it'll be the loyalists attempting to assassinate Horus Lupercal.

RCgothic
06-09-2009, 14:30
I haven't read the first two, but I've heard nothing but negative reviews about them.


For what it's worth, I enjoyed them.

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:36
For what it's worth, I enjoyed them.

Blood Angel novels? I bought Deus Sanguinius when it was first released and I did actually like it. That is, up until the Word Bearers came in.

will564752
06-09-2009, 14:39
how kill a Primarch?
This can be about
M'sheen vs. Konrad Curze
Guiliman vs. Alpharius
Jaghatai Khan vs. Dark Eldar.

All Post-Heresy events, so highly unlikely.


Yeah, I'm still sticking to the belief that it'll be the loyalists attempting to assassinate Horus Lupercal.

Thats a possibility - Although im struggling to think about how they would base an entire novel on this. Unless of course it focuses on Horus (aswell as an assassin character) post Isstvan V. Also I dont know if 'Nemesis' is an appropriate word to describe Horus Vs. An Assassin either to-be-honest.

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:42
Jaghatai Khan fought the Dark Eldar before he was rediscovered by the Emperor. Mundus Planus was often plundered or attacked by the Dark Eldar and the White Scars still harbour hatred for them.

It's entirely likely that the White Scars fought them all through the Crusade at various points and, the reason that the Great Khan entered the webway gates was to finally force the attacks on Mundus Planus to cease.

They were indeed his nemesis.

will564752
06-09-2009, 14:46
Jaghatai Khan fought the Dark Eldar before he was rediscovered by the Emperor. Mundus Planus was often plundered or attacked by the Dark Eldar and the White Scars still harbour hatred for them.

It's entirely likely that the White Scars fought them all through the Crusade at various points and, the reason that the Great Khan entered the webway gates was to finally force the attacks on Mundus Planus to cease.

They were indeed his nemesis.

Then I stand partly corrected :)

But what such a book would give to the HH series is debatable. Focusing on the White Scars and the Dark Eldar would arguably not contribute a lot to the Series at all. It also isn't a well known event(s), so I cant see a Horus Heresy book being based on White Scars Vs Dark Eldar.

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:59
Yeah, I agree with you. Don't tell that to fans of the White Scars though :p

sydbridges
06-09-2009, 15:13
Then I stand partly corrected :)

But what such a book would give to the HH series is debatable. Focusing on the White Scars and the Dark Eldar would arguably not contribute a lot to the Series at all. It also isn't a well known event(s), so I cant see a Horus Heresy book being based on White Scars Vs Dark Eldar.

I'm not sure "not contributing very much to the series" has stopped various HH novels from being released so far, but I do agree that it wouldn't make a great deal of sense.

I would like to see it being about Night Haunter, but I prefer my Night Lords novels written by the author who wrote "Lord of the Night," because if I'm going to read about batman-marines, I might as well read it by someone with proven batman-marine writing skills.

reds8n
05-10-2009, 13:31
*casts raise thread with ultimate power*



After Istvaan V, Horus declares outright war against the Imperium. In the shadows of the Emperor's Palace, powerful figures convene. Their plan - to send a team of assassins to execute the arch-traitor Horus and end the war for the galaxy of mankind before it's even begun. But what they cannot know is that another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor.


Sounds good to me.

Picture about to cause no end of argument over when certain organisations were or weren't formed.

Lord Damocles
05-10-2009, 13:42
My retcon sense is tingling...


So do we think that this friendly looking fellow is an Eversor or a Culexus?

reds8n
05-10-2009, 13:44
hard to say..perhaps a forerunner to the "current" assassins.

...I would say that if you were trying to kill the most powerful human psyker in existence then the Culexus would be the better option.

Lord Damocles
05-10-2009, 13:48
...I would say that if you were trying to kill the most powerful human psyker in existence then the Culexus would be the better option.
That was my thinking as well... although that would require a nasty little retcon of the Culexus background from the 2nd ed. Codex: Assassins which has the Culexus order being composed of pariahs as a post-Heresy development.
Could always be a non-pariah Culexus I guess...? Or a Culexus who just happened to be a pariah...?

Only time will tell I suppose...

Londinium
05-10-2009, 14:54
I'm willing to bet upon them retconning the fluff, or that assassin being a proto-Culexus. This is GW afterall they are hardly adverse to sweeping retcons of their stuff and it wouldn't exactly be a game changing retcon if they did so.

AndrewGPaul
05-10-2009, 15:09
Looks more like an Eversor, but then again, it could be an Assassin of a different type to the four known ones.

pookie
05-10-2009, 15:50
Looks more like an Eversor, but then again, it could be an Assassin of a different type to the four known ones.

agreed, that head unit doesnt look like the Culexs ( sp) one.


Anyone else think it looks female? ( not that it matters )

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 16:02
It even has a c'tan phase sword like a Callidus assassin if you look, plus with the female appendages on the torso, I would say probably on way to kill Night Haunter. It is M'shen I believe so already named in fluff.

Lord Damocles
05-10-2009, 16:12
It even has a c'tan phase sword like a Callidus assassin if you look, plus with the female appendages on the torso, I would say probably on way to kill Night Haunter.
Didn't bother to read the synopsis then?

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 16:22
Didn't bother to read the synopsis then?

Please explain. All the comments I saw were pure conjecture and not what is a certain fact like the picture of the front cover. And I was expressing my vote, not saying what it certainly was as I do not know.

pookie
05-10-2009, 16:34
Please explain. All the comments I saw were pure conjecture and not what is a certain fact like the picture of the front cover. And I was expressing my vote, not saying what it certainly was as I do not know.


its a pre HH book, which rules out M'shen.

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 16:41
Maybe it was altered in later publications but my source says Kurze was killed at the end of the heresy. I suppose that depends when the heresy is deemed to end as i have no timeline for the events and I don't have recent chaos codex or assassin codex.

My main sources are still 2nd ed work which may have been retconned long since but are the only hard copies i have to hand. If I'm wrong I apologise to all.

reds8n
05-10-2009, 16:44
Please explain. All the comments I saw were pure conjecture and not what is a certain fact like the picture of the front cover.

errrr....



After Istvaan V, Horus declares outright war against the Imperium. In the shadows of the Emperor's Palace, powerful figures convene. Their plan - to send a team of assassins to execute the arch-traitor Horus and end the war for the galaxy of mankind before it's even begun. But what they cannot know is that another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor.

is the publishers summary. it's quite clear this isn't anything to do with the Death of Night Haunter.;)

and, as said, that happens post heresy.

Couldn't rule out an appearance by said assassin though I guess.

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 18:09
Sorry, I thought that was the poster's idea what the book could represent. I wasn't aware that was the publishers quote. My bad then. I will submit to punishment Monday 32nd January.

leopro2009
06-10-2009, 09:50
Picture about to cause no end of argument over when certain organisations were or weren't formed.Assassins were not part of Inquisition until the end of (Age of Apostasy) Blood Reighn of Goge Vandire.
So...

genestealer_baldric
06-10-2009, 11:10
well they said that they were going to do more books with gravil loken so it could be him vs abbadon etc...

also didnt the word bearers virtullay start the hersay? i wouldnt call that a minor role.

Urath
06-10-2009, 11:26
I knew it would be about assassins.

The Anarchist
06-10-2009, 18:23
this could be Garro and his mission for those strong of faith....eg creation of the inquisition maybe.
or possible the creation of the First Emperors champion in preperation by the Big cheese for the Imperil fist first emperors champion to fight the forthcoming champions of the Chaos gods.

jsut my two cents.

Xisor
06-10-2009, 18:38
Smashing. It's great news to see a story about the assassins. Hopefully this'll begin to shed light into the 'early' days of many Imperial organisations. Garro, thanks to Pg339 of HH:CV, is almost certainly bound to being tied up in the origins of the Grey Knights, but hopefully we'll see him in this, and perhaps some appearances from Malcador, Amendera Kendel and, if we're really lucky, Promeus, Moriana and friends!

Swallow's an engaging author, I rather enjoyed The Voice. I trust Nemesis will be rather enjoyable.

Mánagarmr
06-10-2009, 19:41
Hrmph, sending assassins to kill Primarchs, silly rabbits.

I'm not sure how much I'll like this book to be honest, but the cover-art is impressive.

will564752
06-10-2009, 23:46
Is the Picture posted on page 3 really going to be the cover-art for the book? Am I the only one who thinks it doesn't really suit a HH novel front cover? :p

Eulenspiegel
07-10-2009, 06:23
amazon.de has a synopsis of Nemesis:

"After Istvaan V, Horus declares outright war against the Imperium. In the shadows of the Emperor's Palace, powerful figures convene. Their plan - to send a team of assassins to execute the arch-traitor Horus and end the war for the galaxy of mankind before it's even begun. But what they cannot know is that another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor."

http://www.amazon.de/Nemesis-Horus-Heresy-James-Swallow/dp/1844168689/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1254896539&sr=8-15

will564752
07-10-2009, 08:05
Yea this thread is way ahead of you, the synopsis has already been posted! :)

Eulenspiegel
07-10-2009, 08:43
Whoops, I read the thread but must have missed that.
Move along folks, there´s nothing to see here .... :)

blindingdark
07-10-2009, 19:56
Just wild speculation on my part, and please dont shoot me downfor this, but.......

its the great crusade, 20 legions took part, 2 we know nothing about. The officio assasinorum (sp?) has not been created yet, but we see what looks to be the assasins we know on the cover. We know one of the missing primarchs was invisible.

assassin space marines anyone ? ;)

Urath
07-10-2009, 21:41
Is the Picture posted on page 3 really going to be the cover-art for the book? Am I the only one who thinks it doesn't really suit a HH novel front cover? :p

Yes and no. Yes, because it looks far too "40k" for a Horus Heresy novel. No, because the novel will be about a different aspect of the Imperium that we haven't thus far been witness to and an event that has never been recorded *cough only just been invented cough* battle for the abyss cough*.

Mánagarmr
07-10-2009, 21:53
Yes and no. Yes, because it looks far too "40k" for a Horus Heresy novel. No, because the novel will be about a different aspect of the Imperium that we haven't thus far been witness to and an event that has never been recorded *cough only just been invented cough* battle for the abyss cough*.

It reminded me of the Mechanicum cover in a way. When I think of the Heresy, I see Space Marines bashing each-others heads in; it's easy to forget that other people exist in 40K aside from the awe inspiring marines.

Londinium
08-10-2009, 21:58
Just wild speculation on my part, and please dont shoot me downfor this, but.......

its the great crusade, 20 legions took part, 2 we know nothing about. The officio assasinorum (sp?) has not been created yet, but we see what looks to be the assasins we know on the cover. We know one of the missing primarchs was invisible.

assassin space marines anyone ? ;)

No we don't, it's one of those crackpot theories that get thrown around here from time to time, along with Sigmar and female space marines. This being said, personally speaking Sigmar is one of the lost Primarches to me, to hell with GW trying to seperate the two games.

Lastie
08-10-2009, 22:14
No we don't, it's one of those crackpot theories that get thrown around here from time to time, along with Sigmar and female space marines.

It was stated outright in Codex Imperialis (and possibly one of the Space Marines 'dexes of the time, however I'm a little too tired to check them all at the moment). Mind you the same page also stated that the surviving loyalist Primarchs all died of old age (completely screwing them over in comparison to their daemonically ascended brethren), so take what you will of that. :p

Londinium
08-10-2009, 22:22
It was stated outright in Codex Imperialis (and possibly one of the Space Marines 'dexes of the time, however I'm a little too tired to check them all at the moment). Mind you the same page also stated that the surviving loyalist Primarchs all died of old age (completely screwing them over in comparison to their daemonically ascended brethren), so take what you will of that. :p

Now you mention it, I remember that now, it's the same book that warned of the 'quiessent perils of the C'tan' or something along those lines, long before they got merged into the Necron background. But 2nd ed is pretty shaky to use as a canon source especially on the subject of Legion/Primarch background which wasn't particularly expanded upon until the IA articles.

will564752
09-10-2009, 09:12
This being said, personally speaking Sigmar is one of the lost Primarches to me, to hell with GW trying to seperate the two games.

That involves ignoring almost everything to do with Sigmar though, Including the Army Book and both 'Heldenhammer' and 'Empire' Time of Legends novels!

Sigmar was an ordinary man, no taller, no stronger and was born to mortal parents - blessed by the gods maybe but certainly not a Primarch :)

That being said however, if you want to ignore the established fluff then go for it, just remember that its only you that would be buying into the theory :D

Urath
09-10-2009, 15:14
I have to say, I always entertained the idea that Sigmar was a primarch. I'd still like to believe it and, as I'm not really knowledgable concerning the Fantasy world, I'm ignorant enough to warrant my belief!

blindingdark
09-10-2009, 18:22
It was stated in codex imperialis, that one of the primarchs was invisible. It does not say anywhere in that book that all the surviving loyalists Primarchs died of old age. It 'implies' that the last primarch to die was from old age, but does not state it.

I want assassin space marines god dammit !
please be the birth of the assassins via one of the lost legions, that would just be awesome.

Lastie
10-10-2009, 08:56
It does not say anywhere in that book that all the surviving loyalists Primarchs died of old age.


Codex Imperialis, p.20[/I]"]Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years.

Of course then Codex: Chaos goes on about how the Daemon Primarchs are all chilling out in the warp, Codex: Space Wolves talks about Russ disappearing on a quest, Codex: Angels of Death talks about El'jonson being held inside the Rock, and Codex: Ultramarines claims Guilliman is healing inside his stasis field. So GW basically ret-conned themselves in a single edition.

Idaan
10-10-2009, 12:22
It doesn't say that the last one died of old age too, only that it was 1500 years after the Heresy. We don't know the fate of the Primarchs who left their Legions like Corax, Jagathai Khan and Vulkan, so it's still possible for them to have died 1500 years after the Heresy of natural causes.
Also the new Space Wolves codex has Russ saying that "his life's breath is all but spent" when he left.

blindingdark
10-10-2009, 12:58
Mind you the same page also stated that the surviving loyalist Primarchs all died of old age


Originally Posted by Codex Imperialis, p.20
Although long lived, the Primarchs were not immortal and the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years.


Where does this quote say that they ALL died of old AGE?

it says the last (not all) died after 1400 years, it does not say how. look up the definition of 'immortal', it means not subject to death. period.

reds8n
29-10-2009, 13:16
Final finished shot of the cover :

pookie
29-10-2009, 13:30
No we don't, it's one of those crackpot theories that get thrown around here from time to time, along with Sigmar and female space marines. This being said, personally speaking Sigmar is one of the lost Primarches to me, to hell with GW trying to seperate the two games.

no it isnt, its states in Codex Imperialis that one of the powers a Primarch had was Invisability, its not a theory, its there in black and white should you care to look for it.


It was stated outright in Codex Imperialis (and possibly one of the Space Marines 'dexes of the time, however I'm a little too tired to check them all at the moment). Mind you the same page also stated that the surviving loyalist Primarchs all died of old age (completely screwing them over in comparison to their daemonically ascended brethren), so take what you will of that. :p

no where in that article does it state he died of old age, lastie, i didnt think your be mis quoting things.


I have to say, I always entertained the idea that Sigmar was a primarch. I'd still like to believe it and, as I'm not really knowledgable concerning the Fantasy world, I'm ignorant enough to warrant my belief!

Sigmar is known to have been born to a Mortal parents, so he cant be a Primarch.

x-esiv-4c
29-10-2009, 14:26
The emperor was born to mortal parents...

pookie
29-10-2009, 16:39
talk of Primarchs etc - is probably best on this thread, were its been argued to death. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220023

blindingdark
29-10-2009, 19:07
Still think it would be a great way to tie up loose ends.
This could give us something to match the quote too, perhaps explaining the birth of the assasins and sorting out the problem of one of the missing primarchs. They have already been mentioned in two of the horus heresy novels so far, so we know the missing legions are on there mind.

they cannot be the assasins we know, i do not think GW would retcon the way the temples were founded, but perhaps there is a little more too it, maybe they were used in the past but banned at some point during / after the heresy.

Ramius4
29-10-2009, 19:40
If they do retcon any of the temple foundings it would make a lot more sense to me.

A galaxy spanning empire would have need of assassins from the very beginning... For my money, toss out the old background and give it a sensible facelift.

ThePope
29-10-2009, 20:03
Um were not the assassin temples named after actual assassins from way back when? Perhaps this is about them?

blindingdark
29-10-2009, 20:10
Um were not the assassin temples named after actual assassins from way back when?

Do you have a source for this ? dont remember readin it.

ThePope
29-10-2009, 20:14
Can't remember for the life of me off the top of my head so meh may be talking utter crap.

Urath
29-10-2009, 20:18
Sigmar is known to have been born to a Mortal parents, so he cant be a Primarch.

We're not friends anymore pookie.

Ramius4
29-10-2009, 21:36
We're not friends anymore pookie.

I'm sure 'pookie' is crying himself to sleep.

Lord Lorne Walkier
30-10-2009, 01:41
The emperor was born to mortal parents...
I don't think think the Emperor's origins have been fleshed out. He might not even be Human at all. From what Ive been able to gather about he was around from maybe as long as when Jesus was on earth...... He might even be Jesus..... any hoo

Maybe the assassin on the cover bears traits of all 4 major temples. Maybe they broke up into smaller divisions at some later date, becoming more specialized. Maybe Garro and co are the ones who save the big E?

Horus38
30-10-2009, 02:54
I don't think think the Emperor's origins have been fleshed out. He might not even be Human at all. From what Ive been able to gather about he was around from maybe as long as when Jesus was on earth...... He might even be Jesus..... any hoo

Have you even read any WHFB fluff? It clearly states what tribe he was born in and Sigmars early history. This is further fleshed out in the 2 Time of Legend books already out on Sigmar.

Hstroyer
30-10-2009, 03:54
Um were not the assassin temples named after actual assassins from way back when? Perhaps this is about them?



“No world shall be beyond my rule; no enemy shall be beyond my wrath.”

Thus spake the almighty Emperor on the summit of Mount Vengeance on Thor. And a number of his most loyal servants did meet together, eager to serve the Emperor as best they could, to help enact his dreams of conquest and rulership of the Galaxy. Skilled were they in stealth and subterfuge, accomplished in the arts of death were they.

They hunted down those who would bring ruination to the Empror’s divine plan, and struck them down as a bolt from the heavens. In secrecy they acted, preferring not to have praise from the Emperor, for they felt themselves unworthy of such attentions amidst the great sacrifices and destruction of the Great Crusade.

Silently did they enact their executions, moving unseen from world to world in the Emperor's wake, ensuring promises were not reneged upon, that treaties and pacts were adhered to.

In time, these loyal servants realized that they could never hide from Death forever, and that their skills must be passed on to a new generation, to continue their great works.

Thus they finally revealed themselves to the Emperor and he did see the magnificent duty they had taken upon themselves and he was most pleased. Great temples were constructed upon Terra and the most skillful and deadly youths were sought out. Thus the Officio Assassinorum was created, and the names of Callidus, Venenum, Culexus, Vindicare, Eversor and Vanus were forever immortalized.

The above quote would hint (in my opinion at least) that the temples were named after the original assassins. Either way, it's a nice little tale explaining the origins of the Assassin Temples.

Helikaon
30-10-2009, 03:55
Have you even read any WHFB fluff? It clearly states what tribe he was born in and Sigmars early history. This is further fleshed out in the 2 Time of Legend books already out on Sigmar.

I'm guessing he meant THE Emperor, not Sigmar.

The Emperor was around long before the Messianic upstart, the E was born in Anatolia in roughly 7000BC. But given his hobby of popping whenever humanity needed him, I'm guessing he was Jesus too, a nine feet tall golden Jesus.

Marshal2Crusaders
30-10-2009, 04:58
I'm guessing he meant THE Emperor, not Sigmar.

The Emperor was around long before the Messianic upstart, the E was born in Anatolia in roughly 7000BC. But given his hobby of popping whenever humanity needed him, I'm guessing he was Jesus too, a nine feet tall golden Jesus.

I prefer to think of my Jesus as a samurai fighting off evil ninjas. A 9 foot tall Golden Samurai.

x-esiv-4c
30-10-2009, 11:32
"I don't think think the Emperor's origins have been fleshed out. He might not even be Human at all. From what Ive been able to gather about he was around from maybe as long as when Jesus was on earth...... He might even be Jesus..... any hoo"

His origins have been covered in either "Slaves to darkness" or "The lost and the Damned". He was born of mortal parents, function as the result of the shaman sacrifice.

pookie
30-10-2009, 11:36
We're not friends anymore pookie.

:p


I'm sure 'pookie' is crying himself to sleep.

actually i didnt sleep much at all, but thats a diffrent story :D


The emperor was born to mortal parents...

so Sigmar=Emperor :eek:

The Anarchist
30-10-2009, 12:30
I prefer to think of my Jesus as a samurai fighting off evil ninjas. A 9 foot tall Golden Samurai.

from what descriptions we have of the big E from the HH books and mortals that met him like John Gramaticus he's a fairly normal looking man, not 9 feet tall or anything. just he exludes a pallable aura of power due to his sheer psychic might.

Ramius4
30-10-2009, 12:37
just he exludes a pallable aura of power due to his sheer psychic might.

You mean exudes and palpable. And the big E only seems to do that when he wants you to see it. At least according to the short story The Last Church in the Tales of Heresy book.

pookie
30-10-2009, 13:45
from what descriptions we have of the big E from the HH books and mortals that met him like John Gramaticus he's a fairly normal looking man, not 9 feet tall or anything. just he exludes a pallable aura of power due to his sheer psychic might.

actually from that meeting with John, id say he isnt what he actually appears to be, Biomancy being one of his skills, his true form is hidden from everyone ( bar John).

The Anarchist
30-10-2009, 15:32
however can't almost any well trained high level psycher warp people perception so they see him how ever he wanted mortals to see him? also biomancy is the ability to change one cellular structure, is that correct? if so the Emperor bio-mancing himself into another form does make his new form his only form at that time, jsut not his orginal form per-say.

pookie
30-10-2009, 15:55
however can't almost any well trained high level psycher warp people perception so they see him how ever he wanted mortals to see him?.

i wouldnt sya any, but certainly the Emp could, hence how he managed to take on so many diffrent persona's over his 'life' time.


also biomancy is the ability to change one cellular structure, is that correct? if so the Emperor bio-mancing himself into another form does make his new form his only form at that time, jsut not his orginal form per-say.

yes from what i understand it is.

but John could tell that this was just a trick of the Emps and could see his actual True Persona/appearance.

tho ive a feeling, we are both on about the same thing, and maybe i was confused when i previously qouted you.

devlin
30-10-2009, 16:11
personally i cant wait im desperate for another hh book

MvS
30-10-2009, 16:19
Biomancy refers to the actual 'sculpting' of biological matter into new forms. I'm sure the Emperor is well versed in this process.

When Grammaticus saw 'through' the Emperor I think this was referring to what lay 'within'. His terrible age, purpose and will. His ruthlessnes and, essentially, his inhumanity, or perhaps post-humanity. You don't get as old and as powerful as him without developing a pretty unusual psychological makeup I would think.

MadDoc
01-11-2009, 23:59
When Grammaticus saw 'through' the Emperor I think this was referring to what lay 'within'. His terrible age, purpose and will. His ruthlessnes and, essentially, his inhumanity, or perhaps post-humanity. You don't get as old and as powerful as him without developing a pretty unusual psychological makeup I would think.

This was my read on it as well.

The Anarchist
02-11-2009, 01:18
Biomancy refers to the actual 'sculpting' of biological matter into new forms. I'm sure the Emperor is well versed in this process.

When Grammaticus saw 'through' the Emperor I think this was referring to what lay 'within'. His terrible age, purpose and will. His ruthlessnes and, essentially, his inhumanity, or perhaps post-humanity. You don't get as old and as powerful as him without developing a pretty unusual psychological makeup I would think.

do you think John Gramaticus was strong enough a psycher to do that, by that i mean; see anything about the Emperors true manner that the Emperor didn't want to be seen?

will564752
02-11-2009, 10:15
do you think John Gramaticus was strong enough a psycher to do that, by that i mean; see anything about the Emperors true manner that the Emperor didn't want to be seen?

Well to-be-honest didnt the priest in 'The Last Church' get a bit suspicious when this seemingly normal guy called Revelations sat down and the chair almost collapsed?!

I always got the impression from 'Legion' that Grammaticus was a very powerful psyker in his own right, perhaps the Emperor was caught off guard? Or John was just powerful enough to see through the Emperor's guise?

MvS
02-11-2009, 13:14
do you think John Gramaticus was strong enough a psycher to do that, by that i mean; see anything about the Emperors true manner that the Emperor didn't want to be seen?
Well I think the implication was that Grammaticus was pretty powerful and that he only got the faintest glimmer of what the Emperor was. That glimmer was enough to horrify him, but was still nothing close to the totality of what the Emperor was and what his plans were (or why he had them).

There's also a possibility that the Emperor allowed for a small glimmer of his true nature to become apparent to Grammaticus. The Emperor seemed to view some psykers as closer to himself. Strong and uncorrupted psykers were beings he wanted to win over. Perhaps he allowed 'bits' of himself to be seen in a hope of generating a connection of some sort. I don't know.

Malcador was the Emperor's second in command on Terra and was incredibly powerful by any measure. It's unlikely that he didn't know something about the Emperor's true nature - certainly he must have known at least as much as Grammaticus, and probably a lot more. For whatever reasons, Malcador saw the Emperor as a force for good. He saw the Emperor as somehow necessary for humanity, unless of course we regard Malcador as in it for the power, which, to me at least, doesn't seem to be the case judging by his background.

My point here is that whatever Grammaticus saw, it certainly wasn't the whole story. There was much, much more to the Emperor and he rarely shared more than a glimmer of his history, experiences, power, plans and 'inner self' to anyone. Not even the Primarchs seem to have known him fully.

I like to think the Malcador knew him better than anyone, although that doesn't have to mean much in the grand scheme of things...

Ghost Warrior
02-11-2009, 20:22
Anyways I'm not sure if this has been posted but on BL's website the cover of nemesis has a picture of a culexus assasin on.

Lord Lorne Walkier
03-11-2009, 03:29
Anyways I'm not sure if this has been posted but on BL's website the cover of nemesis has a picture of a culexus assasin on.
Why post on a thread that you have not read? That should be against the "rules".

Maybe the founding of the =][= is tied up in this plot with the origins of the Officio Assassinorum. Probably the Custodes are in the mix again, with that one in the Tales of Heresy. Maybe the picture of Garro in Collected Visions in Custode Armour will have a scene.

Gdolkin
03-11-2009, 10:54
The thing with Grammaticus was that his psychic power is of a particular kind where he has a kind of priviliged access to the 'truth' or 'essence' or 'meaning' etc of things, hence his ability to understand any language, see through any lie or appearance, discern patterns in seemingly unconnected phenomena etc, right?