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shredshredxx
03-09-2009, 16:36
i'm attempting to make a semi-competitive orcs and gobbos list for my second army.

tactically, i'm focusing on the fact i have 10 fanatics and using the naked night goblins as bait to throw said fanatics through so enemies end up on top of them when charging taking 2d6 hits per fanatic, the fact i have 4 spear chukkas, and the concept of picking and choosing fights i know my black orcs can quickly win and overrun into another unit. bullying, if you will.

tell me what you think!! i massively appreciate any advice or criticism you guys have.

characters
black orc warboss w?ulag's akkrit axe, enchanted shield, warboss umm's best boss 'at, warboss imbad's iron gnashas, heavy armour, boar
=275 points
(goes in the black orc unit)
black orc big boss w/ bsb, martog's best basha, amulet of protectyness, heavy armour
=154 points
(goes in the big 'un unit)
night goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, dispel scroll (or mayhaps staff of sneaky stealing... what do you guys think??)
=100 points

core
orc big 'uns x 19 w/ full command, additional choppas, nogg's banner of butchery
=264 points
night goblins x 25 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=230 points
night goblins x 25 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=230 points
night goblins x 20 w/ full command, spears, nets, 2 fanatics
=185 points
night goblins x 20 w/ full command, spears, nets, 2 fanatics
=185 points
night goblins x 20
=60 points
night goblins x 20
= 60 points

special
black orcs x 19 w/ full command, shields, mork's spirit totem
=354 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points

total=2237 points

what should i add? what should i drop?? can i actually win a game?? THE POWER IS IN YOUR HANDS

green316
03-09-2009, 16:51
If you plan to put your Lord in the unit of Black Orcs you could go with just a regular Orc Warboss instead of a Black Orc Warboss as you wont be needing to use Quell Animosty or make use of the armed to da teef.

Saves you 25 points and that means another fanatic.

rtunian
03-09-2009, 17:56
your bsb has amulet of protectyness and heavy armor. there is no instance where he will be allowed to use his armor save from heavy armor (since he doesn't have anything that can wound himself). any time he is wounded, he uses the armor/ward save of the model that caused the wounds

imo not taking any rare choices is a mistake.

fanatics are good for extra damage. imo they are not good for basing your whole battleplan upon.

if you want magic defense, you need more shamans or mork's spirit totem. if you take mork's totem, you need to put your bsb in a bigger unit. as you are now, you don't have much mdef at all. sneaky stealing is still better than 2x dispel scroll

of course any list can win. even horrible lists. it's all in the dice.

Deglosh
03-09-2009, 18:48
you will get masacred tbh. Using that many units of nightgobbos with only unit strenght 20 is a huge mistake, trust me. 30 gobbos on hte other hand can actually sustain quite a bit of dmg beofre you need to start worrying about panic

shredshredxx
03-09-2009, 19:09
cool, thanks for replying guys.

i'll take all this into consideration.

i mostly want a black orc warboss simply because i have an impossibly cool model i converted to use for one, but i figure that extra weapon skill and other stat benefits might make the little difference i need against a monster or in a challenge with an enemy lord.

i already have mork's spirit totem, it's in the blorc unit...

i'll throw down a revised list when i get home and have the points values readily available.

thanks again

undeadgoblin
03-09-2009, 19:41
Like said, Goblins need to be high US. Ive seen night goblins take down dawrf hammerers in combat, thanks to 3 ranks, banner, outnumber, and a kill. It helps.

Also, consider musicians on your small units of Night Goblins, as any leadership bonus for rallying is a godsend for them.

IIRC, I think Black Orcs only have a magic banner point limit of 25. I would put the Spirit Totem on the BSB, and remove the Best Basha and Amulet, and keep his heavy armour. He can still use weapons from Armed to Da Teef, which is useful and often overlooked.

rtunian
03-09-2009, 19:59
the blorc unit is not a good spot for both your general and mork's spirit totem. that unit is going to be a magnet for shooting and magic, and you have only 20 in there to start (well 21), so 2 death = 1 less dispel dice

perhaps you should trade one of your 200+ pt ng blocks for a block of 28 orc shield boyz, and put your mork's totem bsb in there. then give your black orcs the gork's waaagh! banner or the war banner

this way, you don't need to have 19 blorcs, and can cut it down to 12-15 or so, and spend the windfall on fanatics or fastcav

Deglosh
04-09-2009, 09:33
He can still use weapons from Armed to Da Teef, which is useful and often overlooked.

Indeed, this is what ive done in my army. I got a Black orc bsb on boar with heavy armor and Morks spirit totem. So he gets 3+ save, 5+ from the armor and down to 3+ for riding boar. Then As said and quoted here, Armed to da teef is often overlooked, but is a verry good rule for blackorcs, great even.

As you can opt. between 2 hand weapons or a great weapon on youre battle standard. So eiterh 1+ attack, or 2+ strenght depending on the foe =)

and a black orc bsb with WS6 S6 and T5 with 3+ save is actually great. Ive had my boyz face of Warriors of chaos with 2x hand weapons were he didnt even get a wound on my bsb thanks to the 5+ rolls needed to wound the sucker, hehe. then hitting back with 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound with -3 armor modifier, he cant save that even with his preciouse chaos armor. :chrome:

Catferret
04-09-2009, 10:28
...I got a Black orc bsb on boar...

As you can opt. between 2 hand weapons or a great weapon on youre battle standard. So eiterh 1+ attack, or 2+ strenght depending on the foe =)

Just for clarity's sake, while he's mounted he won't get any benefit from a choppa or an additional choppa, and will only get +1S from wielding a great weapon.

rtunian
04-09-2009, 13:27
i do not believe that you can wield a great weapon or an additional weapon while you are a battle standard bearer. this flows from the knowledge that you cannot equip a shield as a bsb. so if your hand isn't free to hold a shield, i don't see how it would suddenly be free to hold a great axe or a second weapon

the rule is wasted on blorc bsb. the only benefit of having a blorc bsb is making your unit of boyz not squabble, and 1 extra armor save

Catferret
04-09-2009, 16:04
I'm inclined to disagree on that. The battle standard upgrade just says he may not choose to buy any additional mundane equipment (barring light/heavy armour). There are no restrictions on using anything the model comes with in the Orc and Goblin armybook, or the main rulebook (at least, none that I could find).

Deglosh
05-09-2009, 10:16
I'm inclined to disagree on that. The battle standard upgrade just says he may not choose to buy any additional mundane equipment (barring light/heavy armour). There are no restrictions on using anything the model comes with in the Orc and Goblin armybook, or the main rulebook (at least, none that I could find).

First of all, youre right, my bad. A mounted model only gets +1 strenght with GW.

And i furthermore agree on this matter. There is nothing that says that the armed to da teef rule doesn apply. But i also have to say it makes ssense what rtunian says.

oma
06-09-2009, 00:23
There is no rule that the bsb use a hand. Several models are shown having the standard mounted on the back of the model. Unless stated spesifically (as it is with some of the bsb's out there) you should not see it as a restriction. Even if it says you can not by extra mudane GW, it does say you can use the 50 magic points in other things (if not taking a magic banner) witch can be a magical great weapon for instance.

Deglosh
06-09-2009, 10:51
There is no rule that the bsb use a hand. Several models are shown having the standard mounted on the back of the model. Unless stated spesifically (as it is with some of the bsb's out there) you should not see it as a restriction. Even if it says you can not by extra mudane GW, it does say you can use the 50 magic points in other things (if not taking a magic banner) witch can be a magical great weapon for instance.

This is true. I have actually thought about remodelling him with the banner on his back.

jthdotcom
08-09-2009, 06:19
I beleive that with the BSB is it assumed they just stick the standard in the ground or something to give them the hand to fight

shredshredxx
08-09-2009, 17:29
check it out, revised list. the black orcs do indeed have a 50 pt. magic banner allowance. thanks again for all the help so far, guys.

characters
black orc warboss w/ ulag's akkrit axe, enchanted shield, warboss umm's best boss 'at, warboss imbad's iron gnashas, heavy armour, boar
=275 points
(goes in the black orc unit)
black orc big boss w/ bsb, martog's best basha, amulet of protectyness, heavy armour
=154 points
(goes in the big 'un unit)
night goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, dispel scroll (or mayhaps staff of sneaky stealing... what do you guys think??)
=100 points

core
orc big 'uns x 19 w/ full command, additional choppas, nogg's banner of butchery
=264 points
night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician
=65 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician
=65 points
goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician
=71 points

special
black orcs x 19 w/ full command, shields, mork's spirit totem
=354 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points

total=2238 points

skuller
08-09-2009, 17:39
The only thing that i would do is add a boar to your BSB swap the amulet and the basha for the banner of butchery, one lonely goblin shaman with 6 DD and 2 dispel scrolls will be a decent defense against most armies but try to add another character either another cheap gobbo boss or shaman (this one with the staff of sneaky stealing)

Catferret
08-09-2009, 17:42
No point buying heavy armour for the big boss with the amulet of protectiness. The amulet makes it pointless.

Deglosh
08-09-2009, 18:19
Nice, those big blocks of gobbos makes me wanna field em, hehehe.
As said amulet of protectyness makes heavy armor useless.
TBH, i would drop his magic items, give him a magical standard, maybe Spirit totem, then then add another shamn with staff of sneaky stealing and you will have a good magical defense. OFC take to note that this banner tends to draw alot of attention when fighting magical dependant armies.

Anyways, a Black orc with heavy armor on a Boar gets 3+ armor save, so i would put ure bsb on a boar, then just give him a magic standard. He will have 3+ save and armed to da teef. Tbh that is more than enough for him. The boar gives 1 strenght 5 attack kat the charge plus, the armed to da teef part makes him able to hit diferent targets with diferent wpns depending on target. this is what i do

Felworth
08-09-2009, 21:46
Anyways, a Black orc with heavy armor on a Boar gets 3+ armor save, so i would put ure bsb on a boar, then just give him a magic standard. He will have 3+ save and armed to da teef. Tbh that is more than enough for him. The boar gives 1 strenght 5 attack kat the charge plus, the armed to da teef part makes him able to hit diferent targets with diferent wpns depending on target. this is what i do

This does not work. Catferret has already said this.

A mounted Black Orc doesn't get the benefit of using his choppa, doesn't get an extra attack from using two choppas and only get +1 strength when using his great weapon.


Anywho, don't place your anti-magic hopes in the Black Orcs retaining ranks. People operate under the curious assumption that Blorc units are dangerous* and shoot/magic them to death rather quickly. When presented with either killing cheap Gobbos or expensive Orcs they nail the Orcs every time.

If anything place your Mork's Totem BSB in a large Night Gobbo unit that has nets. Forces the enemy to bang off shots at Gobbos if they want to hurt your magical defenses as opposed to Blorcs and the BSB is protected by the nets in the unit.


*Seriously, Blorcs can pound on average enemy blocks with no problem (though regular boyz can too for cheaper) but they get minced by enemy elites like nobody's business.

woodulikeanother
08-09-2009, 22:06
I'm inclined to disagree on that. The battle standard upgrade just says he may not choose to buy any additional mundane equipment (barring light/heavy armour). There are no restrictions on using anything the model comes with in the Orc and Goblin armybook, or the main rulebook (at least, none that I could find).

pretty sure it states clearly in my book for O&G that thay cannot choose any non-magical equipment, except light or heavy armor. Not even a shield for shooting purposes, and even thought the black orcs come armed to da teef, the battle standard negates the armed to da teef rule. also even if he doesnt choose a magical banner, he still cant choose a magical weapon...just armor or enchanted and talismans etc...

Catferret
08-09-2009, 22:49
O&G book, p20 - Armed to da Teef: The only thing listed as negating this rule is a magic weapon.

O&G book, p50 - Big Boss battle standard upgrade: May not take mundane equipment except light/heavy armour. May choose magic items up to 50pts, or a magic standard of any value. Same wording as all other army books so nothing about not being allowed to take magic weapons (although if he did he would lose his Armed to da Teef).

Also nothing about them losing any equipment they come with. Would a Savage Orc lose his choppa? There is nowhere in the O&G book or main rulebook that states taking a battle standard removes any basic equipment you start with.

Anyway, no more derailing this thread. Any further rules discussions should be take to the WFB Rules forum.

Deglosh
09-09-2009, 09:16
Im totally with Catferret on this.

shredshredxx
10-09-2009, 02:38
me too, i quite enjoy having 2 weapon skill 7 characters in my army.

Deglosh
11-09-2009, 23:18
hehehe yeah, at least give us that!

shredshredxx
12-09-2009, 11:11
i mean, when we're playing o&g... what else do we have going for us??

hahaha :p

shredshredxx
15-09-2009, 23:35
revisions!!

i took into account how quickly i can lose dispel dice once the black orc unit takes some shooting, and buffed them accordingly.

got rid of one of the naked night goblin blocks in favor of another spear chukka because i love them.

characters
black orc warboss w/ ulag's akkrit axe, enchanted shield, warboss umm's best boss 'at, warboss imbad's iron gnashas, heavy armour, boar
(goes in the black orc unit)

black orc big boss w/ bsb, martog's best basha, amulet of protectyness, heavy armour
(goes in the big 'un unit)

night goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, dispel scroll (or mayhaps staff of sneaky stealing... what do you guys think??)
(goes in a night goblin unit)

core
orc big 'uns x 19 w/ full command, additional choppas, nogg's banner of butchery

night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics

night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics

night goblins x 30 w/ full command, spears, nets, 3 fanatics

night goblins x 20 w/ musician

goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician


special
black orcs x 24 w/ full command, shields, mork's spirit totem

spear chukka

spear chukka

spear chukka

spear chukka

spear chukka

Catferret
16-09-2009, 03:35
No point in having the Amulet and heavy armour on the BSB, he can only ever roll a save granted by the amulet.

To be honest, I think he'd get more safety from heavy armour and being mounted on a boar. 3+ all the time (before modifiers) is better than something which could be better or worse (before modifiers) depending on what is hitting you. The boar also takes the same space as 2 Big Uns so gives you another casualty before you lose ranks for the Spirit Totem.

Deglosh
17-09-2009, 19:02
i would drop all the big 'unz. They are to few to make a diferense. Even though they are better than ordenary orcs, on those numbers they dot achieve much, and will get shot to pieces. I have no experience with Black Orcs, but imo id take a squig unit of 5 hunting teams, drop the black orcs and big un'z and then get ordenary boyz blocks for the rest. Static combat res ftw tbh.

Youre enemy wont charge onto a block with a static combat res of 5 to willingly, especially if they are orcs with T4 and S4 in the first round of combat (even if orcs tend to die alot :P hehe OI OI! )

shredshredxx
21-09-2009, 01:05
hmmm, i'll try that, but i think it might make me bit more lacking in hammer units /:

Deglosh
21-09-2009, 09:07
true. and i dont know what i was saying. 19 big unz is a good amount. hehehe
though a unit ofr 5 hunting teams is a great hammer unit. 2 strength 5 attacks at WS4 from each squig that can fight. And immune to psuchology. As long as the opponent doesnt shower them with missile and magic, so they blow up :P hehe but youre plaing O&G! xD

shredshredxx
04-11-2009, 03:35
hey guys. I apologize in advance for rezzing this thread, but i tweaked the list that began it quite a bit, and i'm looking for some fresh opinions.

characters
black orc warboss w/ ulag's akkrit axe, enchanted shield, warboss umm's best boss 'at, warboss imbad's iron gnashas, heavy armour, boar
=275 points
black orc big boss w/ battle standard, martog's best basha, bigg'eds kickin' boots, heavy armour, boar
=171 points
night goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, dispel scroll
=100 points

core
orc big 'uns x 19 w/ fc, additional choppas, shields, nogg's banner of butchery
=283 points
night goblins x 30 w/ fc, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 30 w/ fc, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician, 1 fanatic
=89 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician, 1 fanatic
=89 points
goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician
=71 points
goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician
=71 points

special
black orcs x 19 w/ fc, shields, mork's spirit totem
=304 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points

rare
troll
=40 points
troll
=40 points

the naked night gobbos go front and center as screens, the spider riders take the flanks to bait and redirect. behind them, the blorc warboss and his blorc unit are in the center right, both trolls are dead center to benefit from the general's leadership, and the bsb and his big 'un unit are center left. the big night gobbo blocks go on opposite sides of this battleline, waiting to launch a whole grip of fanatics through the night gobbo screens at oncoming chargers, so that they finish their charge and take 6d6 s5 ap hits. if the naked night gobbos panic and flee, so be it. it'll be through blorcs, trolls, and big 'uns. and everyone knows size matters.

the spear chukkas will go dead level with any big monsters the opponent fields. i know 6 might be overkill... but these are orcs. overkill is what we do!

comments? concerns? criticisms? didactic anecdotes? thanks in advance!!

Grom Hellscream
04-11-2009, 19:06
i agree with fellworth. get the mork's banner out of those blorcs and either drop the protectyness OR the heavy armor from the BSB (i'd say drop protecty and basha and give HIM the mork banner)

in addition. drop the spears and full command from any gobbo unit you are using as a fanatic deployment method.
actually just remove all the spears. they suck w/ WS2, S3, period.

drop the two empty units of NG, and get some fast cav. at 2250 you should field 3-4 units of fast cav - believe me, you'll need them.

with any spare points you then have, i would sugguest doom divers and/or snotlings. (i assume you know what a fanatic slingshot it)

its is worth noting that yes a fanatic army is a massivly painful and unpredictable thing (to both players), while you have a lot of out-of-your-control zaniness, you don't have any flankers.

you probably will win depending on your fanatic rolls. more than anything yell "Waagh!" a lot, and you'll probably have a blast everytime you play. (your opponent maybe not so much, everyone else hates fanatics)

shredshredxx
05-11-2009, 00:38
dropping the spears sounds like a good call... makes sense.

i also kind of like giving the bsb mork's totem and putting him in night gobbos, as it makes enemies divert fire from the black orcs to take out my magic defense. pretty good call. the only thing i don't like is that it greatly negates the fighting ability of what's probably the second hardest hitter in my army...

4 ws7 s5 attacks every turn on a hero looked like so much fun!!

i don't use the amulet of protectyness in the new list, might you be looking at the old one?? the bsb has the kickin' boots in the new list

and yeah, i know the fanatics will cause a lot of hate, but

A. will it be more hate than the spear chukkas generate??

and B. this is an orcs and goblins list. if i can win with it, i might bring some validity back to this game everyone insists on being unbalanced, and some respect to what's considered a lowest-tier army.

thanks for the advice!!

shredshredxx
05-11-2009, 00:39
oh. and the advice about yelling "WAAAGH!" forecfully and frequently was not only the best advice i've ever received on this forum, but on the internet as a whole.

i commend you, grom.

high fives

OrcsandGobbos
10-11-2009, 17:04
i think your using way too much fanatics id drop it to 2 in each and rid myself of the empty ng units instead with your extra points get another orc unit with add choppas and cmd and drop a few chukkas and the trolls to field a giant. you have to field a giant its the law

shredshredxx
10-11-2009, 18:26
are giants really that good??

i don't really know how they do in combat, every time i've played against one my vampires/knights butcher it in a round.

it seems like investing way too many points in an easy-to-shoot, no-save, gimmicky model.

especially when o&g's best trait is the advantage of numbers.

fishound7
11-11-2009, 13:34
Gaints are suppose to draw fire. When I field my gaint I don't really expect it to make it. I mean if it does Great but if it doesn't I don't mind. I want my gaint to suck up at least 2 rounds of shooting. Granted I don't field my gaint out in the open unless i feel its safe (non-ranged armies). Imo Orcs and Goblins your suppose to bring so much cheap hitty stuff that the opponent can't kill all of it. You want lots of deployment drops lots of targets.

Also imo gaints are tarpits. Just for the fact that once in combat they are hard to shift and MAINLY because of stubborn. They are also Tons of fun just don't expect much as they are random. Gaints are more reliable then trolls thou and don't need to be babysat. Great Flankers

Also a suggestion Drop 2 boltthrowers and pick up a Rock lobba. Kinda for variety sake but a well place rock lobba hit will CRUSH a block. You can still shoot at large targets with it and will do d6 wounds. Get good at guessing and you'll never turn back.

I don't think Black Orcs are worth it. They die just as easy and for WAY more points then normal orcs. You basically can have 2 orc units for your one black orc one. Plus it takes up a Oh so scarce special slot.

I like to keep my charactors as vanilla as possible to fit in more hitty troops as to put more threats on the table. Orc charactors are like lizardmen charactors thier statline is quite impressive and don't need to add too much more hitty. I'd say just give your warboss or any fighty charactor one cheapo hitty item if at all. I mean if you go two choppas on your warboss you have 5 str 6 hits first round of combat and the option to go str 7 with a GW thats damn impressive imo as vanilla.

fishound7
11-11-2009, 13:37
If you don't want your gaint chopped up by elite units your gunna have to use your fast cav to get in and redirect or ... move out of the way the gaint has decent movement.

shredshredxx
17-11-2009, 08:18
i appreciate all of the comments,

and i upgraded(?) the list a bit.

great suggestions,

but i just don't really think a giant is what this list needs.

numbers, on the other hand...

anyway. dropped a spear chukka and those expensive bosses and got a suicidal dual-choppa block of 20 orc boyz.

characters
black orc warboss w/ ulag's akkrit axe, enchanted shield, warboss umm's best boss 'at, warboss imbad's iron gnashas, heavy armour, boar
=275 points
black orc big boss w/ battle standard, martog's best basha, bigg'eds kickin' boots, heavy armour, boar
=171 points
night goblin shaman w/ dispel scroll, dispel scroll
=100 points

core
orc big 'uns x 19 w/ standard, musician, additional choppas, shields, nogg's banner of butchery
=283 points
orc boyz x 20 w/ musician, additional choppas
=145 points
night goblins x 30 w/ fc, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 30 w/ fc, spears, nets, 3 fanatics
=250 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician, 1 fanatic
=89 points
night goblins x 20 w/ musician, 1 fanatic
=89 points
goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician
=71 points
goblin spider riders x 5 w/ musician
=71 points

special
black orcs x 19 w/ fc, shields, mork's spirit totem
=304 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points
spear chukka
=35 points

rare
troll
=40 points
troll
=40 points

grand total=2242 points
16 units
193 models