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View Full Version : Would Black Templars ally with Grey Knights?



G_Thraka
03-09-2009, 22:30
Hi there, I'm collecting a Witch hunter and Grey Knight apocalypse force at the moment but recently i have the urge to collect an allied Black templar contingent after painting some old space marine vets in their colours when i was bored. However, in the fluff as you all know Black Templars dont like psykers to much and since Grey Knights are all psykers this could cause a problem. I was thinking though when an emergency arises the Black Templars would put aside their grievances to counter a common threat.
Anyway what i want to know is what you guys think about this? Would it never happen in a million years or would the Black templars see the Grey Knights as an exception to the rule?

Corrode
03-09-2009, 22:32
I believe it's explicitly stated in the BT Codex that they have no truck with psykers barring the Grey Knights, whose purity is obviously beyond questioning. Someone with an actual source can help you more, though.

Somerandomidiot
03-09-2009, 22:37
Corrode is correct, they will not ally with any psykers except for Grey Knights. (this means no Inquisitors though, as iirc according to the FAQ they count as psykers even if they don't take a power)

G_Thraka
03-09-2009, 22:39
Cheers guys for the quick reply. I thought the same but i like to have as fluffy an army as possible and i wanted to make sure before i started spending money on them.

ntin
03-09-2009, 22:39
In most cases the Grey Knights work alone from the rest of the Imperial forces. They could come and go without the Black Templars being aware of their presence. In any case if the Grey Knights are present then the situation has already spun wildly out of control. The Inquisition would take command authority of the battle and the Black Templars would have to behave. This is why the previous 4th edition codex makes the one exception for the Grey Knights.

ctsteel
03-09-2009, 22:41
Makes you wonder what would happen if a senior Malleus Inquisitor Lord showed up with a GK Brother Captain and a full complement of GK Terminators, would the Black Templars tell the 'witch' where to go? And would the Brother Captain have issue with that?

G_Thraka
03-09-2009, 22:44
I thought the black templars like the space wolves are very independant from the other imperial branches and do as they see fit. I cant see an inquisitor having much say in what they do or how they behave or am i barking up the wrong tree?

ctsteel
03-09-2009, 22:54
It might depend on how much leverage or backup the Inquisitor had - if a minor inquisitor was to turn up on his own or with a small complement of guards, and was on his own personal mission, they might tell him to go away, and if he persists in his annoyance of them they might just forcibly remove him from their presence with confidence that they can ignore any attempts at censure.

I'd expect a Lord Inquisitor with the backing of the sector command or higher to have enough clout and guile to twist the meeting/request in the way that suits him - and someone of that seniority isn't going to disappear easily or without investigation. The Templars are still devoutly loyal to the Emperor, so as long as the Inquisitor didn't do things they perceive as radical, and the mission had perceived value to the chapter, they'd probably voice their objections (whatever they may be) or swallow them while "co-operating" with the inquisition's "request".

Cheesecat
03-09-2009, 22:58
Black Templars may mot like inquisitors but they sort have to obey him if he has the power to blow up your home world.:evilgrin:

G_Thraka
03-09-2009, 23:02
They dont have a homeworld though;). Also i get the feeling they stay away from the inquistion if possible. Something to do with them having a slightly more marines than they shold have.....

Argastes
03-09-2009, 23:41
There's always going to be a sort of unsteady, ambiguous balance of authority in relationships between SMs and the Inquisition. Those relationships exist in a grey zone without clearly agreed-upon rules, so what will happen varies from situation to situation. Obviously Inquisitors are going to view the privilege of "commandeering" SM chapters, just like they would commandeer any other property or personnel in the Imperium, as part of their authority... but at the same time, they know that in practical terms, they usually have to approach SM chapter masters as equals to be negotiated with rather than subordinates to be commanded. Because SM chapters are essentially independent military mini-states that exist outside the rest of the Imperium, and to a certain degree their special status they can get away with telling off Inquisitors (or at least holding out on them) if they don't want to work with them. For own their part, of course, the Marines know that they if show too much hostility towards the regular Imperial authorities then they might eventually be accused of disloyalty, and there HAVE been chapters who have been punished for that in the past.

So whenever Inquisitors and Marines interact, how the situation is going to go will depend very much on the specifics of what the Inquisitor wants, what the Marines are willing to do for him, how the chapter views the Inquisition and Imperial government, what the chapter thinks they can get out of it for themselves, and so forth. So the personalities and negotiating approaches of the particular Inquisitor and the particular Chapter Master in question are quite important to what happens. This is exactly why Inquisitors like to try to cultivate lasting relationships with Chapter Masters and vice versa, based on mutual respect and cooperation to the benefit of both.

Guess I'm kind of rambling. What I mean to say is, with regard to the question of how the BTs would receive a senior Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, it all depends. What's this Inquisitors reputation, for one thing? Do they know he's a hardline puritanical type (which they might like), or is he a radical (which they might not like)? How obvious is it that he's a psyker? How does he approach them, and how high are the stakes in the situation with which he wants help? It all depends on many factors. A skillful fluff writer could probably set up scenarios in which it goes either way, and both would be equally convincing depending on how the situations were portrayed.

Marshal Argos
04-09-2009, 07:18
Corrode is correct, they will not ally with any psykers except for Grey Knights. (this means no Inquisitors though, as iirc according to the FAQ they count as psykers even if they don't take a power)

BT can Ally with Inquisitors. The rule states that they won't ally with anyone who has Psychic powers... You can always buy an Inquisitor without a power. It's been discussed almost monthly since the codex came out...

OT: Personally I don't the the BT have any problems at all allying with GK. As others have said it even states they will in the rules.

pookie
04-09-2009, 09:06
Black Templars may mot like inquisitors but they sort have to obey him if he has the power to blow up your home world.:evilgrin:

As pointed out they dont have a Homeworld, and it would be a very brave Inq to attack them.


BT can Ally with Inquisitors. The rule states that they won't ally with anyone who has Psychic powers... You can always buy an Inquisitor without a power. It's been discussed almost monthly since the codex came out...

OT: Personally I don't the the BT have any problems at all allying with GK. As others have said it even states they will in the rules.

not according to the FAQ iirc, but.... this then flies in the face of what happened during the Vinculus Crusade, i think common sence should be used, and as long as the Inq doesnt have a Psycic power then it should be permitted.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 09:37
The Inquisition and Space Marines have independent power bases. An Inquisitor doesn't order Space Marines, he requests their assistance in service of the Imperium; the Space Marines are servants of the Emperor that founded the Imperium, so the chances are pretty good that they will respond favourably, unless there was some cause for suspicion or they do not have any resources available.

Marshal Argos
04-09-2009, 11:42
not according to the FAQ iirc, but.... this then flies in the face of what happened during the Vinculus Crusade, i think common sence should be used, and as long as the Inq doesnt have a Psycic power then it should be permitted.

And again, I quote " No model with PSYCHIC POWERS maybe be fielded as an ally to the BT ... with the exception of GK". P.23 BT Codex

An inquisitor is a psyker, even if he doesn't have a psychic power, per the updated FAQ's. But the BT codex doesn't say can't ally with psykers, it says it can't ally with anyone who has psychic powers...

pookie
04-09-2009, 12:07
And again, I quote " No model with PSYCHIC POWERS maybe be fielded as an ally to the BT ... with the exception of GK". P.23 BT Codex

An inquisitor is a psyker, even if he doesn't have a psychic power, per the updated FAQ's. But the BT codex doesn't say can't ally with psykers, it says it can't ally with anyone who has psychic powers...

:eyebrows:

looks over to my Avatar - i do know what the dex says.

Marshal Argos
04-09-2009, 12:40
:eyebrows:

looks over to my Avatar - i do know what the dex says.

Hence I wonder why you seem to remember that we can't ally with Inquisitor's anymore....:angel:

pookie
04-09-2009, 13:28
Hence I wonder why you seem to remember that we can't ally with Inquisitor's anymore....:angel:

i think we were at crossed purposes - id put "iirc" because iw asnt sure if i had, which i hadnt, not owning the WH dex also means i only pick up off here what people say you can/cant do, and as always theres always confusing, hence why i wasnt sure.

but we must be able to after all, as i mentioned before, just look at the Vinculus crusade, although would a Thirster be able to possess a non Psycic vessel??? hmmm maybe i need to research possession....

but

alls good :D

ashc
04-09-2009, 13:37
Daemons can possess pretty much whatever they like, psyker or not.

And to the OP, yes, the Black Templars will work with the Grey Knights and, as others have said, whether they like it or not.

canucklhead
04-09-2009, 16:58
I think the simple point of all those rules, Written and interpreted by you Barristers and Advocates as many ways as you like, is that you can ally BT with quite a few things, but no sneaky trying to fit in a psyker with some cool powers by making him an ally.

GK's are mentioned as the exception, and that is where it ends. As you can make an INQ without powers, I would not object to seeing that army across from me, as you are not trying to bend the BT rule to get a psyker in there.

This is why you are encouraged to discuss things like this with your opponent, in a spirit of creating a fun and balanced game, and why tournament organizers generally rule on these things in their rules packs.

I mentioned once on another forum, that if someone new to the hobby were to take his impressions from these sites, he'd come to the conclusions that every player of this and other hobby games was a WAAC, intolerant ignoramous with zero social skills, and his head buried in a rule book all game waiting to slap him in the head with it over a slightly cocked die.

ashc
04-09-2009, 17:54
I mentioned once on another forum, that if someone new to the hobby were to take his impressions from these sites, he'd come to the conclusions that every player of this and other hobby games was a WAAC, intolerant ignoramous with zero social skills, and his head buried in a rule book all game waiting to slap him in the head with it over a slightly cocked die.

And everyone who plays the hobby knows thats only a half-truth ;)

starlight
04-09-2009, 18:04
Makes you wonder what would happen if a senior Malleus Inquisitor Lord showed up with a GK Brother Captain and a full complement of GK Terminators, would the Black Templars tell the 'witch' where to go? And would the Brother Captain have issue with that?




...yeah, but she's our witch! :eyebrows:




Is about how it would go...

Emperor's Grace
04-09-2009, 18:18
It might depend on how much leverage or backup the Inquisitor had - if a minor inquisitor was to turn up on his own or with a small complement of guards, and was on his own personal mission, they might tell him to go away, and if he persists in his annoyance of them they might just forcibly remove him from their presence with confidence that they can ignore any attempts at censure.

I'd expect a Lord Inquisitor with the backing of the sector command or higher to have enough clout and guile to twist the meeting/request in the way that suits him - and someone of that seniority isn't going to disappear easily or without investigation. The Templars are still devoutly loyal to the Emperor, so as long as the Inquisitor didn't do things they perceive as radical, and the mission had perceived value to the chapter, they'd probably voice their objections (whatever they may be) or swallow them while "co-operating" with the inquisition's "request".

They don't need to kill him to shut him down...

The BT can just tell him that their forces are too thinly spread... recovering from last mauling... insufficiently supplied... busy washing their hair... etc...

Since the BT responding to your request is entirely dependent on the BT, and only the BT know where their forces are concentrated at any moment, it perfectly plausible for them to tell an =I= that they're not available. If they even answer his hails...

If the GK asks, then I'd go for grudging acceptance but not addressing the =I= and dealing with the GK only.


--- Whoops, I should have read Condo's and Argastes' posts... Ninja'd by my own enthusiasm?

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 18:31
Great minds, and all that.

HereticLosMorte
04-09-2009, 19:56
And again, I quote " No model with PSYCHIC POWERS maybe be fielded as an ally to the BT ... with the exception of GK". P.23 BT Codex

An inquisitor is a psyker, even if he doesn't have a psychic power, per the updated FAQ's. But the BT codex doesn't say can't ally with psykers, it says it can't ally with anyone who has psychic powers...

incorrect.
an inquisitor is an investigater, a regular man. only when you purchase the powers in the codex does he become a psyker. you can field a non-psyker inquisitor, in which case, the black templars will ally. the black templars would most definitely ally with the sisters of battle, who in turn ally with inquisitors. both have a very similar view on witches as well.

i used to be a huge black templar fanatic, amassing 10k pts over 6 yrs. they were my first army, back in 2nd edition (they were black and white marines) and into the beginning of third (where they became known as black templars officially.). i've read their fluff through multiple codices, books, background fluff, etc. they most certainly would ally, unless said inquisitor was a psyker OR a radical.

Marshal Argos
05-09-2009, 06:34
incorrect.
an inquisitor is an investigater, a regular man. only when you purchase the powers in the codex does he become a psyker.


So, I'll make this simple. Read the Codex and the most updated FAQ's...

Codex DH P. 22 Inquisitor Lord / P. 24 Inquisitor. Both entries list under special rules "PSYKER" and nothing says they are only Psykers if they choose a psychic power. That means that whether or not they choose a power is irrelevant they are still considered Psykers. Now onto Codex:WH Check the updated FAQ. It clearly states the same as above, they are considered psykers even if they don't chose powers because they are listed as having the Psyker special rule.

Now as I stated before, as long as Psyker has no psyker powers the BT will ally with them as the BT rules have nothing against "Psykers" but "psychic powers".

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 14:30
Since when does an Inquisitor have to be psychic? Amberley Vail isn't.

J-rock
05-09-2009, 14:54
Since they aren't any pykers in the BT, how would they even know if an Inquistor was a pysker?

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 15:12
They have several rounds of poker; if the Inquisitor lets the BTs win, they accept he's not a witch.

pookie
05-09-2009, 17:06
So, I'll make this simple. Read the Codex and the most updated FAQ's...

Codex DH P. 22 Inquisitor Lord / P. 24 Inquisitor. Both entries list under special rules "PSYKER" and nothing says they are only Psykers if they choose a psychic power. That means that whether or not they choose a power is irrelevant they are still considered Psykers. Now onto Codex:WH Check the updated FAQ. It clearly states the same as above, they are considered psykers even if they don't chose powers because they are listed as having the Psyker special rule.

Now as I stated before, as long as Psyker has no psyker powers the BT will ally with them as the BT rules have nothing against "Psykers" but "psychic powers".

i agree ( whch is what i did before, i just didnt post too well ) and again,to back whatyou said up, just look at the Vinculus Crusade, which involved the Bt and a Inquisitor.

it is rather confusing though i do admit!

w00tm0ng3r
05-09-2009, 23:47
Here's how I'd imagine a conversation between a GK and a BT would turn out:

GK: "Hail brother, I request your most capable aid in the fight against a most foul daemon."

BT: "Begone foul witch! I shall not tolerate your mutation staining the my halls! The Black Templars are friends only to the pure!"

GK: "... alright if you want to play that game, how many dudes from YOUR chapter have turned to chaos?"

*dead silence*

GK: "That's right b****, now pull your head out of your power-armored ass and help me smite that daemon."

BT: "But you're a witch!"

GK: "... Look you overzealous *****, which do you think is the greater evil, that bloodthirster who just burned down a hive and sacrificed everyone in it to Khorne or a Grey Knight Grandmaster?"

BT: "... alright fine I'll help you" *walks off*

GK: "Well that went relatively well, the last time I enlisted a Black Templar he refused to help me until I told him the Emperor was a psyker..."

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 05:03
"I'm glad that modern medicine allows re-attachment of heads; still have that crick in my neck."