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slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 06:20
I have a few questions about 40k unusual tactics. What I mean by unusual, is that I have never seen or heard anybody doing the following. My queation is are the following tactics workable or I got the fluff wrong.

1 Is it possible to use teleporter to teleport a powerful bomb? If yea, why teleport termines in to the heart of the enemy if u can just teleport a bomb? im talking about seek and destroyed mission, not capture.

2. how come the Nids dont use bio virus nids as a weappn troops. Do they even use them?

3. can a powerful demond possess a giantic warmachine size such as a titan or a battleship? has it been done?

thats all for now.

by the way, if u have ideas of your own, please ppat them. i find this very interesting.

Ganymene
04-09-2009, 06:31
1 Is it possible to use teleporter to teleport a powerful bomb? If yea, why teleport termines in to the heart of the enemy if u can just teleport a bomb? im talking about seek and destroyed mission, not capture.

2. how come the Nids dont use bio virus nids as a weappn troops. Do they even use them?

3. can a powerful demond possess a giantic warmachine size such as a titan or a battleship? has it been done?


1. The Imperial battleships most likely just launch weapons from space when they need to level a city/continent/planet. The Marines are only called in when a more surgical strike is necessary.

2. The Tyranids launch all kinds of viruses and deadly spores in the initial stages of planetary invasion. This weakens/kills any threats that may lie on the planet before they send in the troops (also, some of the spores force all the plant life to grow uncontrollably). Sending creatures to the planets surface is done when the fleet needs to clean up the stragglers that survived the orbital bombardments.

3. Yes. There are many possessed titans used by chaos forces. The only titan legion I can think of is Legio Mortis.

horst
04-09-2009, 06:33
1) terminators are more devastating than the most powerful weapon available... a nuclear bomb could go off next to a terminator, and it would just kinda say ow and keep on fighting. Also, terminators are usually deployed to kill enemy leaders, or accomplish specific objectives. When going on such a mission, its entirely possible that the enemy could escape a bomb... and his death needs to be visually confirmed.

2) Nids do use virus weapons... I believe spore mines contain toxins and viruses.

3) a daemon cannot possess a titan or a battleship because the individual controlling those war machines is linked into a Mind Impulse Unit and communicating with a machine spirit. In order to do this, the mind must be extremely powerful to begin with, so would be resistant to possession.

DoombringerATT
04-09-2009, 06:37
1) Yes.

In Fire Warrior, the Imperium teleported a strike force of Storm Troopers and Tech-priests aboard the Tau vessel, bomb in hand, in order to attach it to the ship's power stack and disable the engines.

Presumably though, a single bomb getting teleported into a vessel would be haphazard and unreliable at best. In the same novel, a few of the Storm Troopers ended up teleporting into each other (creating a gruesome ball of flesh), and IIRC a Tech-priest was teleported into a wall.

Not sure how a bomb's integrity would hold up in this case... If it teleported into something, it may deactivate. If it teleported in unsupported, it could probably be found and disarmed rather quickly by rapid-response teams.

2) Yes.

One of the 'Nids' primary weapons are bio-viruses.

In the Let the Galaxy Burn anthology, it describes in detail a Tyranid invasion of a planet. One stage had the people outside the vehicles getting eaten alive by biohazardous bacteria and other types of flesh-eating viruses to turn the unfortunate victims caught out in the open to goo long before Tyranid macro-organisms, proper, can engage them in direct combat.

3) Yes.

One of the Chaos ships that you can select for your fleet in Battlefleet Gothic is a daemonship. [ref. Chaos Fleets .pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1280009_BFG_Traitor_Fleets.pdf_)]

Also, I do believe that in Fire Warrior, once again, a Warlord Titan is possessed by a daemon and/or possessed artificial intelligence (if such a thing could exist?).

---

EDIT:

Horst... I'm not quite sure a Terminator could survive a nuclear bomb going off next to him...

Extremes of heat and cold, considering their original design? Sure.

Tens of millions of degrees though? That's a bit excessive. Melta weapons wouldn't be able to so much as slow him down, which simply isn't true.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 06:53
1. You probably could teleport in several bombs at the same time, just to be sure. I've never seen them mentioned, but creating a teleport detector would certainly be on my list of priorities.

3. Powerful enough Daemons can possess anything.

Logarithm Udgaur
04-09-2009, 06:59
1) Also in Let the Galaxy Burn an fallen marine redeems himself by teleporting into the heart of a demonworld with a bomb. Such tactics are slip-shod at best though. If you can teleport a bomb into an enemy stronghold, presumably you would be able to destroy it with more conventional means.

2) What everyone else said.

3)A powerful deamonhost escapes its bonds in one of the Eisenhorn books and possesses a titan IIRC. Also, as another has said, Chaos titans are nearly all possessed.

grissom2006
04-09-2009, 07:11
1)3) a daemon cannot possess a titan or a battleship because the individual controlling those war machines is linked into a Mind Impulse Unit and communicating with a machine spirit. In order to do this, the mind must be extremely powerful to begin with, so would be resistant to possession.

Yes they can or haven't you been reading any the books.

Arakanis
04-09-2009, 07:53
1) terminators are more devastating than the most powerful weapon available... a nuclear bomb could go off next to a terminator, and it would just kinda say ow and keep on fighting. Also, terminators are usually deployed to kill enemy leaders, or accomplish specific objectives. When going on such a mission, its entirely possible that the enemy could escape a bomb... and his death needs to be visually confirmed.

3) a daemon cannot possess a titan or a battleship because the individual controlling those war machines is linked into a Mind Impulse Unit and communicating with a machine spirit. In order to do this, the mind must be extremely powerful to begin with, so would be resistant to possession.

1) Terminators are not invulnerable. A nuclear blast would vaporize them, or at least mush the occupants from force, heat and hard radiation. Terminators exist to confirm the target is dead. Or because it's not feasible to teleport a bomb into a base (either because they'll just defuse it) or because a bomb large enough to destroy the entire facility simply can't be accurately teleported into a hallway or room. Lets face it, 5 Terminators can be teleported into a facility, they can then sweep it for targets, confirm the primary target is killed and then teleport out. Much more frightening than a simple bomb that might not even work.

2) Yeah... they seed the place with spores that mulch your lungs. Eventually Spore Chimneys pop up and make them.

3) A daemon can pretty much possess anything or anyone if it's strong enough. Chaos Titans and Daemonships have been specially prepared for a very powerful greater deamon. The princeps and moderati are usually ritually sacrificed and the machine spirit is replaced with a daemon, creating a daemon engine. No struggle of will about it.

horst
04-09-2009, 09:02
yea, the crew is ritually sacrificed and replaced, or turns traitor and is slowly mutated / possessed. I thought that the OP's question was more along the lines of a daemon posessing the vehicle mid-battle, and causing it to turn right then and there.

of course, given time, the titan could turn traitor.

And of course terminators are invulnerable. they have an "invulnerable" save >< thus, they are invulnerable. especially the ones with stormshields.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 09:32
Those weren't Ultramarines that were standing next to that exploding nuke?

Logarithm Udgaur
04-09-2009, 09:54
They are only 1/3 Invulnerable going up to 2/3 Invulnerable if they have one of the newer shields. Nuclear blast? They are gonna die, the suit would probably be recoverable though.

TheBigBadWolf
04-09-2009, 10:54
2) Teleportation is dodgy at best, but I do remember a bit in the BFG book where an Imperial Cruiser is overthrown by heretics and a small number of loyalists are holed up in the hull, another vessel is able to teleport some bombs to them so that they can destroy the ship.

2) Tyranids have numerous spore weapons and the like.

3) If a deamon can possess a warship then a titan is no problem.

Lord_Crull
04-09-2009, 12:54
And of course terminators are invulnerable. they have an "invulnerable" save >< thus, they are invulnerable. especially the ones with stormshields.

No, you are confusing game mechanics that where made for game balance with the actual fluff. Fluffwise, the sheer power of a nuke would be beyond Terminatior plate and would overload the protective field offered by the Crux Terminatus.

Vaulkhar
04-09-2009, 13:58
hmm...maybe. I don't believe it's ever been tested ;). Terminator armour is certainly tough enough to handle the temperatures and the radiation (the suits were originally designed to work in active plasma reactors after all) but the concussive force might be a bit too much. A small nuke and a suit being worn by Hrothgar the Incredibly Jammy....well, maybe.

1) Teleporting a bomb onto an enemy ship with one second left on the timer is an interesting idea but as several people have pointed out, teleportation is horribly inaccurate at the best of times and that's in ideal conditions (1). Given that the middle of a battle is anything but ideal conditions then, as has already been said, you're better off teleporting in a squad of Marines that can hunt down their target.

2) Oh yes they do. It's usually subsumed into the poisoned attack rules, but if you're fighting 'Nids without a gas mask on then you've either got a death wish or no choice in the matter.

3) Daemons have been known to possess just about anything. I believe it's the Banelord class of Titans that has a Greater Daemon running things and the Grey Knights book Dark Mechanicus has a case of such possession, albeit with a slight twist. The daemon in question had slightly lost it's mind when it fused with the Castigator's AI. Alaric winds up having to point out that it's behaving like a daemon to remind it of what it is. Ironically, this renders it vulnerable to him.


(1) And if the target has a sufficiently skilled Chaos Sorceror and/or Greater Daemon onboard, there's a distinct possibility of the bomb winding up somewhere you don't want it...like your bridge. With one second left on the timer.

ashc
04-09-2009, 14:40
3)A powerful deamonhost escapes its bonds in one of the Eisenhorn books and possesses a titan IIRC. Also, as another has said, Chaos titans are nearly all possessed.

Not quite, Cherubael is unbound and summoned by Eisenhorn and pretty much tears the titan in half with power.

Although yes, daemons can possess titans anyway :)

pookie
04-09-2009, 15:26
1) terminators are more devastating than the most powerful weapon available... a nuclear bomb could go off next to a terminator, and it would just kinda say ow and keep on fighting. Also, terminators are usually deployed to kill enemy leaders, or accomplish specific objectives. When going on such a mission, its entirely possible that the enemy could escape a bomb... and his death needs to be visually confirmed .

are you getting confused because they orginaly desgin was to be used in Plasma/Nuclear reactors? people have already pointed out why your wrong so i wont.


3) a daemon cannot possess a titan or a battleship because the individual controlling those war machines is linked into a Mind Impulse Unit and communicating with a machine spirit. In order to do this, the mind must be extremely powerful to begin with, so would be resistant to possession.

as pointed out a Powerful enough Daemon can possess anything, the exceptions are someone who has become Illuminated - ie has been possessed and mananged to throw that possession off. or a Pariah who are Psycic blanks.

Types of possesed chaos titans are: Banelords, Warplords, Painlords ( iirc ) and Pluage Lords.

darker4308
04-09-2009, 15:41
1)

In many cases where they "send in the terminators" they are trying to do something that a bomb just wouldn't do such as recover technology, save a relic, pull someone or something out of a statsis pod, and/or in the best case change the current course of the spacehulk.

In many cases though, a bomb would make more sence. There are also, as I understand, limitations to how far a teleported bomb could make it into a solid object like a ship. Either way teleportation doesn't exist today apart from on the quantum level so we don't really know what the limitations are. I would only hazard that space hulks are so massive that the expenditure of ordinance to completely destroy one is not available. The concept of their existence at all though, also raises a lot of theortical concerns. Why would a hulk even keep moving ? How could you control one ? How would then be in any way able to cope with an attack from dedicated attack craft Ect. Ect. Ect.

2)

Nids do use bioweapons. It is in the nid codex I think....some story about guardsmen hacking up blood and the commisar being allready dead for nid spores.

3)

Machines has a "machine spirt" ... this can be allegedly taken over by a daemon.

Burnthem
04-09-2009, 15:46
Teleportation is also very close ranged, if you've got close enough to an enemy vessel to teleport a bomb aboard than either you're extremely desperate and have lost all other offensive means, or the enemy ship is incapable of hurting you, which kind of makes the bomb redundant anyway.

SabrX
04-09-2009, 16:02
@horst: I'm not sure what the equivalent of a nuclear weapon would be in 40k (probably Strength D?) but confusing 40k game rules/stats and 40k fluff is a big no no. Anything at ground zero from 100 megatonnes of TNT(Tsar Bomba?) will be vaporised.

Firaxin
04-09-2009, 17:16
(How are these unusual?)

As Burnthem said, teleportation attacks can only be made at 10cm in BFG, which is 1/3 the range of the shortest ranged weapons. The vessels capable of making teleportation attacks typically include weapons with 6-15x that range.

Another obstacle is teleportation attacks can only be made when a ship's shields are down.

canucklhead
04-09-2009, 17:30
OP. All of these things are not only possible, but are commonly done. It does however, make for a dull table top game, when you opponent sets up his lovely painted army, and then removes them as you drop a card that says 'exterminatus'.

Instead, we play the desperate last struggle to remove secret tech files to the teleport homer, before the exterminatus. Or the fight to keep the xenos hemmed into the wastelands so the incoming orbital strike will catch them all without devastating the surrounding agrilands.

It's never been a question of whether or not the Imperium uses other tactics. 40k is about the little moments when there is real struggle between forces, not just an exchange of horrific world ending weapons.

Damocles8
04-09-2009, 17:33
3) Daemons have been known to possess just about anything. I believe it's the Banelord class of Titans that has a Greater Daemon running things and the Grey Knights book Dark Mechanicus has a case of such possession, albeit with a slight twist. The daemon in question had slightly lost it's mind when it fused with the Castigator's AI. Alaric winds up having to point out that it's behaving like a daemon to remind it of what it is. Ironically, this renders it vulnerable to him.


well the Castigator was an AI that turned into a Daemon...there was no Daemon (from the warp) that it fused with, it might have absorbed warp energy before the planet reappeared but it was a pure AI

trolly
04-09-2009, 17:42
hi,

2. yes, tyranids use virus weapon coz every weapon they use is living thing.
3. the novel about daemon possesion on titan is dark adeptus.
1. 40K space ship is powered by plasma generator, and terminator armor is based on suit that able to stand the high vaccum pressure of the generator. nuclear blast is so powerful but not vaccum. if the armor can stand high vaccum, maybe it can stand the blast, but i'm not sure coz there is no reference of how high is plasma generator pressure, and how many tonnes of TNT of nuke bomb in 40K

another tactics maybe :
1. teleporting lots of bomb rigged grots.
2. suicide bomber for penal legion or Latd.
3. vehicle self destruct.
4. playing dead ( maybe for necrons ).
5. disguise for two identical but opposite army ( dark eldar disguise as eldar vice versa for example ).
that all i have in mind.


cheers,
:D

slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 18:00
OK, thanks for all reply.

First off.
I thought the range of a teleport is very far. I'm talking about From orbiting ship to to ground on a planet. Emperor did it to Horus's ship. To me that is quite a range.

- Now I think the cost of a Nuke to teleport is way cheaper than a cost of a trained marine and Termie armor. Yes a teleport is not perfect. But to risk a nuke hitting a wall would be cheaper than a One Termie hitting a wall. What I'm saying is that I think One Termie and Marine cost of production is about the cost of 20 nuke or 20,000 Bombs that can blow up a city block. Take your pick. I would rather send 5 nukes + 100 bombs to a White House, than teleport 5 Termines to White House. Again, mission is Kill all in the White house. If one of my nuke hit the wall or got screw up with the teleporter, so what. The same could have happened to a Termine.

Every time one marine get killed from a teleport, I think it would have been much better to teleport a suicide bomber or bombers for the mission.

Leftenant Gashrog
04-09-2009, 18:02
are you getting confused because they orginaly desgin was to be used in Plasma/Nuclear reactors? people have already pointed out why your wrong so i wont.


Theres a serious difference in energy output between a reactor and a bomb - when 'the' Chernobyl react went critical it only blew the top off the building, even a low level nuke would have vapourised the entire facility.

slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 18:09
Can a Teleporter teleport something into a matter on purpose? Example, Teleport a Car or a solid chunk of metal into a enemy Spaceship engine so it can screw it up.

Or Teleport a chunk of metal right into a control room and hopefully it will matter some of the people in the control room or at least screw up the control system. I can see how 5 termines mass is about a size of a Van, now a Van just pop up in a Control room will killed a few pilot or at least screw up the control system. Just picture Star Track ship control room, BAMB! A Van pop right on Sulu.

Firaxin
04-09-2009, 18:18
OK, thanks for all reply.

First off.
I thought the range of a teleport is very far. I'm talking about From orbiting ship to to ground on a planet. Emperor did it to Horus's ship. To me that is quite a range.
Space is huge. That range is nothing in BFG, where 1cm can represent thousands of kilometers.


First of all -- space is big! Very, very, big. Take your conception of a long way (ie, down to the shops when it's raining hard) and multiply it by a million, then by another million... and then by another million and you're still not even close to how far apart things are in space... it is assumed that the ships actually occupy the point in space shown by the stem of their base... The actual base of a ship model represents a very close range around the ship, no more than a few thousand kilometers.

slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 18:28
yes space is hugh, so what? The issue is from Orbit to ground.

If you can teleport something from orbit to ground with in 1mile, it's damn close enough. A nuke can effect 1mile radius or a squad of marines and do a seek and destroyed.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 18:33
I vaguely recall one piece of wargear that supposedly prevented or threw off accurate (comparatively) teleportation.

Firaxin
04-09-2009, 18:36
It's not just from orbit to ground, it's from ship to ship too. In fact ship to ship is more common, since you can just take a shuttle or drop pod from orbit, but it's much harder trying to board an enemy ship in space.

The original question was teleporting ordnance anyways, and you'd more commonly be trying to vaporize an enemy ship than a portion of the ground--the problem is it's easier to just shoot the ship to bits from 6 or even 15x the distance of teleportation range than to fly that close and then teleport a bomb over.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 18:42
I guess the teleportation question could be best answered with, what would Captain Kirk do?

Vaulkhar
04-09-2009, 18:48
Hm...Captain Kirk and the old Enterprise versus an Astartes battle barge...I don't see that fight lasting very long.

Burnthem
04-09-2009, 19:07
yes space is hugh, so what? The issue is from Orbit to ground.

If you can teleport something from orbit to ground with in 1mile, it's damn close enough. A nuke can effect 1mile radius or a squad of marines and do a seek and destroyed.

Eh? Ground to Orbit is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Starships carry weapons that can reach out to ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometres, whilst what we class as 'High Orbit' is only in the range of 35,000-ish kilometres at the maximum.

As Firaxin said, flying close enough to teleport a bomb/van/squad/christmas card over is pointless when you can safely blast them from a safe(r) range with your weapons.


Hm...Captain Kirk and the old Enterprise versus an Astartes battle barge...I don't see that fight lasting very long.

The original Enterprise could fly down the barrel of some of the Imperiums larger ship-based weapons ;)

trolly
04-09-2009, 19:54
hi,



- Now I think the cost of a Nuke to teleport is way cheaper than a cost of a trained marine and Termie armor. Yes a teleport is not perfect. But to risk a nuke hitting a wall would be cheaper than a One Termie hitting a wall. What I'm saying is that I think One Termie and Marine cost of production is about the cost of 20 nuke or 20,000 Bombs that can blow up a city block. Take your pick. I would rather send 5 nukes + 100 bombs to a White House, than teleport 5 Termines to White House. Again, mission is Kill all in the White house. If one of my nuke hit the wall or got screw up with the teleporter, so what. The same could have happened to a Termine.

Every time one marine get killed from a teleport, I think it would have been much better to teleport a suicide bomber or bombers for the mission.

the reason is same as why they dont use camo.
it just a matter of pride.


cheers,
:D

Lord_Crull
04-09-2009, 19:58
OK, thanks for all reply.

First off.
I thought the range of a teleport is very far. I'm talking about From orbiting ship to to ground on a planet. Emperor did it to Horus's ship. To me that is quite a range.

- Now I think the cost of a Nuke to teleport is way cheaper than a cost of a trained marine and Termie armor. Yes a teleport is not perfect. But to risk a nuke hitting a wall would be cheaper than a One Termie hitting a wall. What I'm saying is that I think One Termie and Marine cost of production is about the cost of 20 nuke or 20,000 Bombs that can blow up a city block. Take your pick. I would rather send 5 nukes + 100 bombs to a White House, than teleport 5 Termines to White House. Again, mission is Kill all in the White house. If one of my nuke hit the wall or got screw up with the teleporter, so what. The same could have happened to a Termine.

Every time one marine get killed from a teleport, I think it would have been much better to teleport a suicide bomber or bombers for the mission.

1. You do realize that nukes are forbidden weapons in 40k right? It's been refernces several times before in the fluff.

2. Bombs are hardly percise when uisng teleporters, and bombs can be disarmed by good enough teams.

Leftenant Gashrog
04-09-2009, 20:16
1. You do realize that nukes are forbidden weapons in 40k right? It's been refernces several times before in the fluff.


Not saying your wrong, but can you provide a source for that?

Burnthem
04-09-2009, 20:25
1. You do realize that nukes are forbidden weapons in 40k right? It's been refernces several times before in the fluff..

Seconded, got a reference? Haven't heard that before! Even the lengthy '40K and Nukes?' thread didn't mention it - http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175311&highlight=nukes+banned+40K%3F

slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 21:53
Eh? Ground to Orbit is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Starships carry weapons that can reach out to ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometres, whilst what we class as 'High Orbit' is only in the range of 35,000-ish kilometres at the maximum.

As Firaxin said, flying close enough to teleport a bomb/van/squad/christmas card over is pointless when you can safely blast them from a safe(r) range with your weapons.



The original Enterprise could fly down the barrel of some of the Imperiums larger ship-based weapons ;)

You are missing the point. I'm not saying that it is eaiser to shoot from a ship. i'm saying why teleport troops, if you can teleport bombs and get the job done better.

slaanghoul
04-09-2009, 21:56
1. You do realize that nukes are forbidden weapons in 40k right? It's been refernces several times before in the fluff.

2. Bombs are hardly percise when uisng teleporters, and bombs can be disarmed by good enough teams.


Bombs are cheaper than marines. It could be virus bomb or any explosive such as krack missile warhead. Use Timer???

Again, a bomb can be as killy as a marine and way cheaper too. Why risk a marine life with a port. just port a bomb.

Firaxin
04-09-2009, 22:55
Why teleport a bomb when you can use the ship's weapon batteries and get the job done better?! When you're teleporting marines over it's not to directly damage the ship; they have a very specific task that can't be done blind with a bomb. The only reason to teleport a bomb is to cause superstructure damage, which you can do by shooting. Marines do more.

Decius
04-09-2009, 23:28
Who's says they don't just teleport bombs all the time? From playing Battle Fleet Gothic, I could see the damage a teleported bomb would do represented by the game's "boarding action" mechanic or a a critical hit caused by "teleport attack"*. The flavour text for these rules mentions troops doing the job, but who's to say the Captain didn't just yell "screw it, send a bunch of bombs"?

*A teleport attack in BFG requires 10cm range (about 10,000km I reckon), no active shields on the target (void shields down), and the target must have more damage than the attacker (attacker needs more crew and functioning systems than the target). That last part is the important to the argument here I think. If the target has more crew/functioning equipment than the attacker, the teleport attack is easily countered, either through sheer manpower (30 guys with a bomb vs 300 guys with "red wire" cutters) or the target has more "teleport cancel-out-ers" than the attacker has "anti-teleport-cancel-out-ers".

Also, 10cm (10,000km) in BFG is considered super close. OMGWTF close. Especially when weapons have ranges of 30cm to 60cm (30,000km to 60,000km), or more. Just thought I'd throw that out there because it's awesome.

Lord_Crull
04-09-2009, 23:55
Seconded, got a reference? Haven't heard that before! Even the lengthy '40K and Nukes?' thread didn't mention it - http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175311&highlight=nukes+banned+40K%3F

Necropolis, Gaunt mentions them as proscribed weapons. In the 2nd edition fluff for Tallarn nukes are mentioned as fordidden as also.


Bombs are cheaper than marines. It could be virus bomb or any explosive such as krack missile warhead. Use Timer???

Again, a bomb can be as killy as a marine and way cheaper too. Why risk a marine life with a port. just port a bomb.

Again, read Doombringer's reasons, bombs are hardly percise or there is any guarantee they are going to remain armed while teleported. Or that boarding will actually reach an important area.

Arakanis
05-09-2009, 02:02
Another thing to remember about teleporting attacks. it's quite one thing to teleport something 5,000 klicks through empty space, it's quite another to send something through 100 meters of reinforced adamantium hull. Starships are quite large and they must generate MASSIVE Electromagnetic interference. You might not be able to teleport a bomb into the engine room because the interference is much too strong to materialize correctly, or even at all. In that case you need a boarding party to deliver the weapons.

Logarithm Udgaur
05-09-2009, 02:11
Bombs are cheaper than marines.

That may be, but they are by no means cheaper than the lives of Naval Boarding Parties.

Back to the topic, I remember the Catachan XXIV covered an entire canyon as a giant pit trap and lured Krakskull's WAAAAAAAGH! into the trap with bait squads. Kinda like Amerindians used to do with Buffalo.

I also remember something about Vesh Etogaur's Pact members waiting weeks in blistering desert heat to set the perfect ambush for a much larger force of Imperial Guard.

Burnthem
05-09-2009, 12:48
Firaxin hit the nail on the head, the only point of Teleport attacks is to acheive a specific objective, say kidnap a crew member, steal some plans/technology, whatever. Teleporting a bomb is pointless, as if you're close enough to teleport you must by definition be in a superior vessel and also be close enough to pulverise them with conventional attacks.

The only possibility i can see for this is as a surprise attack by a damaged ship against a over-confident attacker that thinks it's won and closes in for boarding.

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 14:17
Which is why anything to do with teleportation has been done by Star Trek first.

Surgency
05-09-2009, 17:53
Necropolis, Gaunt mentions them as proscribed weapons. In the 2nd edition fluff for Tallarn nukes are mentioned as fordidden as also.


I think he (Gaunt) meant that for land-based forces, and the Guard they were to dangerous to the soldiers to use. Theres all kinds of references to atomics being used in ship-ship warfare, as would make sense. In space, the vacuum means that persistant radiation effects (as well as the shielding on various ships to deal with background radiation) make the weapons less dangerous to the average person....

Unless you're near the part of the hull that gets hit with one of the weapons :p

Burnthem
05-09-2009, 23:00
Agreed, it makes sense for the Guard to be restricted in use of Nuclear weapons, with the old 'keep power divided' attitude of the Imperium. They are there (Deathstrike Missiles etc) but they're not as common as they are in the Imperial Fleet, where even the nukes are at the extremely low end of the destructive scale!

darker4308
05-09-2009, 23:14
Grand Master Space Marine : Hey look ... Brother Oren is trying to fix his plasma gun so it doesn't explode with a "Plasma munitions for dummies" book. Apparantly it's by some Tau guy.

Tech Marine : Heresy, I may need to burn that book and we may need to something about Brother Oren before he tries to patent it his quickfix and me and all the other guys end up out of a job without sacred urgents.

Grand Master Space Marine : Are you thinking what I am thinking ....

Tech Marine : Space hulk mission FTW.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 04:59
It makes sense keeping WMD out of the hands of the IG. But then you'd need two organizations, one that authorizes use, and the other that carries it out.

Brother Antonios
06-09-2009, 05:19
The main reason the Imperium does not teleport bombs is two fold but first remember the Imperium of Man uses the Warp to teleport, Tau and Necrons and some far off AdMech have other methods that I won't get into.

1. Their is a chance any teleport action can be influenced by the sentient powers of the warp. This includes the chance it will be teleported a short distance and end up right next to the teleport pad, this is not a good place for a bomb. A bomb needs a target not knowing where it will end up is a very bad place for a bomb.

2. Time does not function normally in the warp, you can send a bomb through that may end up arriving 2 years later. This reduces the stategic value of the bomb considerably. As it may destroy a base that is now controlled by your forces.

1 and 2 do happen to Terminators who are blessed and do their absolute best to land on target and have homing tech that is no longer made. The shorter the hop the less likely the warp interfearance, warp interfearance is reduced again by other methods ie Grey Knights have better luck thanks to extra blessings and Psychic powers.

It boils down to the fact a bomb as a tool is only good if you know the outcome before you use it, otherwise it's only good for Khorne.

Logarithm Udgaur
06-09-2009, 05:29
otherwise it's only good for Khorne.

Everything is good for Khorne, that is why we worship it.

Koryphaus
06-09-2009, 06:01
That may be, but they are by no means cheaper than the lives of Naval Boarding Parties.

+1! Plenty more troops, but don't waste good bombs!

NightrawenII
06-09-2009, 12:04
Unusual tactic eh?
Throwing peniciline or antibiotic grenades at Plague Marines:cool:
Using aircrafts, i mean using bombers like Wellington, Lancaster, B-17 Fortess or B-24 Libeartor. This is real Air Force.:skull:

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
06-09-2009, 12:35
The 10cm distance required to teleport something in BFG is also the same distance required to be in orbit around a planet. When the Emperor teleported onto Horus's ship in orbit (after he dropped the shields), he was in within the BFG 10cm.

As mentioned already, since you need to be so close and the other ship has to have its shields down in order to teleport something aboard, do it from far away! The shields are already down, blow it up from a distance where you are less likely to get caught in an explosion from the ship.

Logarithm Udgaur
06-09-2009, 13:00
Just thought of one, attacking by boat/submarine. The Orks did it in the 3rd Armageddon war. Also on Armageddon, the Last Chancers used a boat to get around.

In my 4 years of playing 40K, I have never once played on or seen a battlefield with any water on it (come on, I need my Chimera's "Amphibious" rule to count for something).

Lord_Crull
06-09-2009, 13:12
Theres all kinds of references to atomics being used in ship-ship warfare, as would make sense.


Where? I've never seen it.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 13:47
Regarding use of atomics, it's been implied in other threads when the subject came up, that the Imperium uses more advanced weaponry than a hydrogen warhead.

Galatan
06-09-2009, 19:17
@the whole teleporting bombs question: Why teleport bombs when you can shoot a nova cannon? Besides the fact that other weapons have much more range, a nova cannon has far more devastating effect than any bomb you are able to teleport. The bugger has a range of 150 cm (150.000 km) and becomes more precise when you get closer. Heck the minimum range is 30 cm (30.000 km) which is a lot farther than teleport range and it will hardly scatter. Nova cannons are used to devastate entire continents and if the enemy is in a tight formation can hit multiple ships.

It isn't a precise tactic, but it gets the job done and does by far a lot more damage than your average teleportable bomb. If you want more precise methods, then boarding actions are much more effective since boarding action tend to keep the enemy ship intact. Blasting out a wall in a ship tend to have very bad consequences (chain reactions, vacuum, etc) and will probably will do more bad than good if you need to retrieve your objective from the enemy. That is why imperial navy troops often only use shotguns for boarding actions, because shotguns don't blast holes in the walls and keep the many sensitive stuff intact (all the other races do seem to ignore that fact though).

Edit: Terminators are also made for boarding actions. Terminator casualties in boarding actions are extremely minimum. The enemy will never use a plasma gun or any kind of AP 2 or lower weapon in a space ship. The damage you'll do when you miss can be very bad (hitting cooling systems, blowing holes in walls, critical systems, causing a fire which is very very very bad idea) and can't be easily fixed. Terminator casualties will often happen due to CC and the amount of CC really varies between ship layouts and the enemy's tactics. Nids are great ship fighters because they tend to crawl into the smallest spaces and just pop out, boarding a nid ship is a very bad idea (Uriel did it once and barely came out alive). Tau will only use firearms and because of that will probably use long halls with tight corners in order to create kill zones in their ships. Eldar don't really get boarded much in the background I think. Necron space combat is extremely rare and one sided. Lastly Ork ships are just unpredictable, but flamers tend to be very effective in clearing parts of the ship.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 19:26
How thick are the bulkheads onboard? There should be enough armour in most ships to ignore most standard small-arms fire.

Galatan
06-09-2009, 19:39
How thick are the bulkheads onboard? There should be enough armour in most ships to ignore most standard small-arms fire.

Don't know, but iirc the reason of using shotguns is stated in BFG or least in another space ship combat book (I've been playing too long to remember all the sources...). TBH I too think that most small arms fire will be ok, because otherwise firing a bolter/shuriken weapon/pulse rifle will be just plain stupid. I think the restriction will be more in the use of special and heavy weapons. Melta/plasma/heavy laser weapons will have a lot less probs blowing holes in bulkheads. If we translate it into gaming terms I think AP 4 weapons is the max you can have in penetrating power if you want to keep it safe.

NightrawenII
06-09-2009, 19:42
@the whole teleporting bombs question: Why teleport bombs when you can shoot a nova cannon? Besides the fact that other weapons have much more range, a nova cannon has far more devastating effect than any bomb you are able to teleport. The bugger has a range of 150 cm (150.000 km) and becomes more precise when you get closer. Heck the minimum range is 30 cm (30.000 km) which is a lot farther than teleport range and it will hardly scatter. Nova cannons are used to devastate entire continents and if the enemy is in a tight formation can hit multiple ships.

It isn't a precise tactic, but it gets the job done and does by far a lot more damage than your average teleportable bomb. If you want more precise methods, then boarding actions are much more effective since boarding action tend to keep the enemy ship intact. Blasting out a wall in a ship tend to have very bad consequences (chain reactions, vacuum, etc) and will probably will do more bad than good if you need to retrieve your objective from the enemy. That is why imperial navy troops often only use shotguns for boarding actions, because shotguns don't blast holes in the walls and keep the many sensitive stuff intact (all the other races do seem to ignore that fact though).

Edit: Terminators are also made for boarding actions. Terminator casualties in boarding actions are extremely minimum. The enemy will never use a plasma gun or any kind of AP 2 or lower weapon in a space ship. The damage you'll do when you miss can be very bad (hitting cooling systems, blowing holes in walls, critical systems, causing a fire which is very very very bad idea) and can't be easily fixed. Terminator casualties will often happen due to CC and the amount of CC really varies between ship layouts and the enemy's tactics. Nids are great ship fighters because they tend to crawl into the smallest spaces and just pop out, boarding a nid ship is a very bad idea (Uriel did it once and barely came out alive). Tau will only use firearms and because of that will probably use long halls with tight corners in order to create kill zones in their ships. Eldar don't really get boarded much in the background I think. Necron space combat is extremely rare and one sided. Lastly Ork ships are just unpredictable, but flamers tend to be very effective in clearing parts of the ship.

ehm, man. If fight orks you will the last, who will be launching boarding action(and this same goes for DE).

Gimp
06-09-2009, 19:42
During the 3rd War for Armegeddon some Jopall Indentured Squadron officers got some Basilisks and rigged the shells in them with bombs. They then pretended to be traitors and gave them to a big mek.

As soon as the big mek was showing his new toys to his warboss the officers blew the Basilisks up as well as the big mek, Warboss and a bunch load of orks.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 19:47
Makes the Orks sound dumber than usual, though I suppose Bomb Disposal for them is sending in some Gretchin with a wrench.

Galatan
06-09-2009, 19:58
ehm, man. If fight orks you will the last, who will be launching boarding action(and this same goes for DE).

DE very true (forgot to mention them), but I think think that if you are able to teleport something onboard an eldar ship that the eldar onboard are probably having a brain fart or something. Eldar/DE ships are very fragile and thus must have methodes for teleport prevention (although DE will probably smile with glee when they are boarded). Most enemy ships even have a hard time getting close.

Orks on the other hand will really depend on the situation. Orks tend to ignore everything around them when focused on something. A diversion can easily send orks running in the wrong direction. A covert operation is extremely plausible. It has been done in the book 'Heroes of the Space Marines', but once they were discovered they ran like hell. The instability/unpredictability of an ork ship will probably also discourage any type of boarding/teleporting action in a combat situation. It wouldn't be surprising that something small could send in a chain reaction and wreck whole parts of the ship, that or the ship can take a lot more punishment than you think. It really depends. There are no standard ork ships, if you teleport a bomb on board then where would you teleport it? It's like throwing darts and you don't know how many points you get for each section.

PS: I think the eldar hole field will also screw up any kind of teleport action.

Marshal2Crusaders
06-09-2009, 20:08
Nuclear weapons are forbidden... unless of course they are needed, then they are momentarily unforbbiddened, used, then reforbiddened. Once reforbiddened the user can simply say it was a measure of last resort or Orks/Chaos did it.

NightrawenII
06-09-2009, 20:58
DE very true (forgot to mention them), but I think think that if you are able to teleport something onboard an eldar ship that the eldar onboard are probably having a brain fart or something. Eldar/DE ships are very fragile and thus must have methodes for teleport prevention (although DE will probably smile with glee when they are boarded). Most enemy ships even have a hard time getting close.

Orks on the other hand will really depend on the situation. Orks tend to ignore everything around them when focused on something. A diversion can easily send orks running in the wrong direction. A covert operation is extremely plausible. It has been done in the book 'Heroes of the Space Marines', but once they were discovered they ran like hell. The instability/unpredictability of an ork ship will probably also discourage any type of boarding/teleporting action in a combat situation. It wouldn't be surprising that something small could send in a chain reaction and wreck whole parts of the ship, that or the ship can take a lot more punishment than you think. It really depends. There are no standard ork ships, if you teleport a bomb on board then where would you teleport it? It's like throwing darts and you don't know how many points you get for each section.

PS: I think the eldar hole field will also screw up any kind of teleport action.

And this was point of my post. DE, E and orks will be in most (if not in every)cases the attackers.

Logarithm Udgaur
06-09-2009, 22:46
I always figured that the reason for shotties in boarding parties is to reduce ricochets and because they are very effective in close quarters (like inside a building, jungle warfare, inside ships, etc...).

Also, this;
http://www.siegeworld.com/downloads/units/imperial_guard/Imperial_Guard_Tunnelers.pdf

Condottiere
07-09-2009, 05:06
Generally, boarding only takes place once a ship's offensive weaponry is neutralized and in most cases, her propulsion is crippled. Teleportation solves the problem of the boarding vessel coming under fire, but doing it during violent manoeuvres by both ships has got to be like shooting that golden bullet.

Sai-Lauren
07-09-2009, 16:32
as pointed out a Powerful enough Daemon can possess anything, the exceptions are someone who has become Illuminated - ie has been possessed and mananged to throw that possession off. or a Pariah who are Psycic blanks.

How about a quicker option, they possess the Princeps and go from there? ;)

But yes, theoretically, based on Defilers being run by a Daemon, a powerful Daemon could possess a Titan, or a number of lesser ones could possess parts of it and become it's "crew", but you'd almost certainly need someone there desecrate it and perform the ritual to summon them, and if you permenantly bound them to it, they might get a little upset with you.

pookie
07-09-2009, 16:36
How about a quicker option, they possess the Princeps and go from there? ;)

But yes, theoretically, based on Defilers being run by a Daemon, a powerful Daemon could possess a Titan, or a number of lesser ones could possess parts of it and become it's "crew", but you'd almost certainly need someone there desecrate it and perform the ritual to summon them, and if you permenantly bound them to it, they might get a little upset with you.

true! in fact didnt this happen in Mechanacium? well not the Princeps, but one of the other crew?

Vaulkhar
07-09-2009, 16:38
Oh, I don't know about that...the daemon gets a body that's really hard to kill (and thus becomes really hard to banish) and access to some really, really large weaponry. For Khornate daemons at least, what's the downside?

I'll grant that Slaaneshi daemons might get a little narked at the lack of...erm...'entertainment' options, but just feed a few sacrifices through the crew access hatch every now and again and that's that problem solved.

Philip S
08-09-2009, 12:29
1 Is it possible to use teleporter to teleport a powerful bomb?
Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how it works.

Teleporters in Sci-Fi often have caveats to stop them from being awesome (if you think about teleporter technology you could adapt it and made anything from base materials -even new humans!)

Perhaps it's like the Terminator had the whole 'no inorganic matter can go through' (though why mr.brainiac Skynet didn't wrap nukes in cow carcases is anyone's guess. Or if it has to be living - sown into the cows stomach (the have four!), drug runner can do it so how about a few mini0super nukes?).

So perhaps the Teleporter, being related to warp tech, needs a 'will' to get through, a living 'chaos resistant' willpower. About the only ones that can do this on a regular basis is ultra badass marines, or the Grey Knights.

Willpower may be key. Lack of devotion, a moment of doubt, or simple distraction is enough for it to fail totally.

Philip

Burnthem
08-09-2009, 13:02
Hmm, very original idea Philip S, i like it! I don't know enough to tell if it stacks up against existing fluff of non-marines frequently using teleporters (if there is any!) but it's a good idea all the same :)

Love your concepts page btw, even if some of it is a little crazy ;)

Firaxin
08-09-2009, 14:45
The only instance in the fluff where a regular human is teleported is during the Battle for Terra, when Olanius Pius shows up on Horus's Battle Barge in the nick of time to save both the Emperor and Mankind.

...oh wait.

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 14:48
Ordinary humans can be teleported, but under what conditions, it doesn't seem to have been specified.

Do their molecules get scrambled and then reassembled? Or a quick hop through the warp?

Philip S
08-09-2009, 16:32
Hmm, very original idea Philip S, i like it! I don't know enough to tell if it stacks up against existing fluff of non-marines frequently using teleporters (if there is any!) but it's a good idea all the same :)
It may slip through the cracks in the background if you squint a bit, take GW at its word that 40k canon is merely an interpretation, and look the other way, and...

Lets say it fits if you want it to!


Love your concepts page btw
Thanks mate - I updated the Teleporter page after posting here ;)


even if some of it is a little crazy ;)
Yeah, getting 40K to 'work' does mean a trip through the lighter side of insanity...:D

Philip

MontytheMighty
08-09-2009, 17:11
1) terminators are more devastating than the most powerful weapon available... a nuclear bomb could go off next to a terminator, and it would just kinda say ow and keep on fighting.

come on now, the explosion would at least lift a terminator off its feet and blow it a large distance away from the epicentre, even assuming infinite durability, for the terminator to stand its ground it would have to be attached to the ground or really really heavy

Raxmei
08-09-2009, 17:51
You can use teleporters to teleport bombs. Inquisitor Kryptmann does it in Codex:Tyranids. It just normally doesn't make sense to do so for reasons already explained in this thread.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 20:00
1 Is it possible to use teleporter to teleport a powerful bomb? If yea, why teleport termines in to the heart of the enemy if u can just teleport a bomb? im talking about seek and destroyed mission, not capture.


If the Imperium needs to use bomb of any real strength the can just virus bomb the planet. Marines and Guard ect are used when a planet/location/object have a strigic importance and shouldn't be TO damaged
(TO damanged is subjective)


2. how come the Nids dont use bio virus nids as a weappn troops. Do they even use them?

Because the nids don't care if an individual Nid survives. If they keep sending out waves of gaunts they will win eventually, and then make more gaunts.



3. can a powerful demond possess a giantic warmachine size such as a titan or a battleship? has it been done?



Yep, Chaos Titians. Deamons in warm war machines the size of titans. Or on a smaller scale defilers

Sai-Lauren
09-09-2009, 16:33
Hmm, very original idea Philip S, i like it! I don't know enough to tell if it stacks up against existing fluff of non-marines frequently using teleporters (if there is any!) but it's a good idea all the same :)

I'd agree, maybe the presence of a spirit/soul/whatever helps to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp, and allows the teleporter to open a link between here and there.

Teleportation seems to be more like a shipless trip through the warp, rather than Star Trek type molecular dissembly, transmission and reintegration.

Eldar have to be careful using teleport tech (Warp Spider mis-jumps), and Tau probably don't have it at all.

Philip S
12-09-2009, 02:05
I'd agree, maybe the presence of a spirit/soul/whatever helps to weaken the barrier between reality and the warp, and allows the teleporter to open a link between here and there.
Or it may help to stabilize the tear in reality, or shape reality to the travellers belief, or all three - and more!


Teleportation seems to be more like a shipless trip through the warp, rather than Star Trek type molecular dissembly, transmission and reintegration.
I am not keen on the Star Trek way of doing things as it seems un-40K.


Eldar have to be careful using teleport tech (Warp Spider mis-jumps), and Tau probably don't have it at all.
I agree, the Eldar would have to be very careful and quick (but a warp based teleporter seems to suit, and the Eldar would be better than most at jumping about), and the Tau should denied it as they have not developed that type of technology to a high level. I see the Teleporter it the pinnacle of warp technology (and the fact the Eldar has mini-porters show their advancement, though humans have displacement field armours too).

Philip

Condottiere
12-09-2009, 04:38
The Warp has perhaps sentience on its own, apart from it's inhabitants, which it might only be playing host to.

Cheesolith
12-09-2009, 21:33
1) terminators are more devastating than the most powerful weapon available... a nuclear bomb could go off next to a terminator, and it would just kinda say ow and keep on fighting.

And yet they are consistently knocked out by somebody firing a HB at them, which according to Dark Heresy is about as powerful as modern day .338 AP bullets, minus the fancy effects that defy physics. And if you have a nuke that can't blow up something that is shredded by regular bullets, you have a very weird and very useless nuclear weapon.

WrYpoRrY
13-09-2009, 08:43
For all these unusual measures, one need look no further than the Alpha Legion's Handy Book of War. If it's unorthodox, and the Legion hasn't tried it, it can't be done.