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View Full Version : Who purged the missing legions: usual and unusual suspects



ML Kurze
04-09-2009, 09:00
Hopefully the title wasn't misleading. I'm not interested in exploring what the two missing space marine legions and their primarchs did wrong, but rather in something that has been bothering me for a long time. Who ordered the records of their existence to be purged?
In the 3rd edition SM codex it said: RECORDS PURGED, ORDER ORIGIN UNKNOWN.
Now, because the viewer of the legion table was an inquisitor (=][= approval codes were visible in the corners), we have to assume that the great secret of chaos was known to the viewer, but not to the more average imperial citizen. At least, that was the theory of the day.
In later SM codeci the ORDER UNKNOWN became blurred entries that suggested complete deletion, or corroded databanks that would suggest physical destruction of the information.

Now, everything we know about the Heresy has been 'updated' (to be polite) through the Horus Heresy artbooks and the BL series. In one of the little books, the Lightning Tower, Primarch Rogal Dorn ponders the questions as to why Horus defected. As he ponders this, he walks into a stadium where there used to be twenty statues of the primarchs. Now, here's where my question and argument revolves around:


Dorn's aimless wanderings had taken him to the Investiary. In that broad space, an amphitheatre open to the night sky, statues of the twenty stood on ouslite plinths in a silent ring. (...). Under the glittering stars, it felt like an arena, where twenty warriors had gathered to make their combat.
The second and eleventh plinth had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one heeded?
Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh. For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

At first glance, nothing really new here. The missing legions are not discussed and the physical memory of those primarchs have been removed. So, the order for the purging of the legion archives seem to point to the Emperor. After all, he either removed their statues, ordered it, or allowed it.
The traitor legions however, seem to get a preferential status regarding their two siblings. They are ordered shrouded by the Emperor, rather then removed as requested by Sigismund. And knowing Sigismund, he is probably the most vocal of a larger group of people believing this is the right thing to do. But, as can be read, the Emperor laughed this away.

Now, he will probably remove the statues of the traitors after the war is over. But, the deletion of the records doesn't sit well with me. After all, deleting all records means that their 'seperate tragedies' aren't allowed to be known by anyone, right? Destroying their records and their statues would eventually delete the public knowledge of these two primarchs, right?

If this was the goal of the Emperor, why didn't he remove the plinths?
This may sound strange, but think about it. If the Emperor truly wanted to destroy any and all memory of the legions, why would he allow the memory to remain that there were twenty primarchs? Nobody would understand those two empty slabs if the records were deleted. And the people, and with that I mean the normal and mortal citizens, that were around at the time would eventually die out, leaving these points of reference void. So, removing those plinths and remodelling the theatre would be completely possible since it happened 'a long time' ago. None would be the wiser. The Emperor was rather busy with his palace in the years leading up to Horus Rebellion.

Here's my theory: the Emperor never wanted to destroy the memory of his two missing children, but couldn't bear to look on their faces because of what happened. All records were most likely sealed. The order to purge them was of a later date. I do not know who did it, but I believe the following options are possible:

a). The surviving loyalist primarchs decided to purge all memory and knowledge of these two. This would have been done in the interest of preserving a positive image of the Emperor. With the data on those two gone, no-one could point a finger to the Emperor that he didn't see the Heresy coming because of what happened previously, or to protect the remaining primarchs against accusations that there's something wrong with their design itself and defection/insanity/whatever is bound to happen to all of the primarchs.

b). The data was deleted by the newly appointed High Lords of Terra to ensure a positive image of the Emperor, thus ensuring their own rule.

c). The newly founded church of the emperor ordered the deletion, either when they came to power amongst the high lords, or one or more of their adherents amongst the high lords persuaded the others.

What do you think?

pookie
04-09-2009, 09:14
Imo only the Emperor could have done this, in my mind they died early in the Great Crusade, even before the first (Hours?) Primarch was found by the Emperor, is it possible that they were maybe killed by the Emp before he realised who they were?

Though that doesnt sit right, but seems a logical explanation, even if it doesnt seem logical, after all he may have had resistance from other Primarchs ( Russ ) and more noteably ( Angron ) before, but he knew who they were, but how would he not know who these were.

hmmmm good thread and certainly diffrent to what most people post regarding the Missing legions.

i'l sit and ponder this now.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 09:21
Information purges can be effected at different times for different reasons.

The Emperor may have just ordered the suppression of all information regarding them. Guilliman may have ordered the elimination of all existing references to them, in order to build up a certain image of the remaining Space Marine chapters in the minds of the Imperial populations. Inquisitors may have decided to eliminate anyone with knowledge of the missing Legions.

Industrial Propaganda
04-09-2009, 09:37
The 2 lost Primarchs and their Legions probably did something very terrible to be banned/killed by the Emperor.

The two others Primarchs who would have know the same fate (Purged from the Imperial data) are Magnus The Red (for the illegal use of sorcery) and Konrad Curze (murdered Fulgrim and Dorn bodyguards. Innocents genocides on many conquered worlds, destruction of Nostromo). But the Horus Heresy started before.

SM_fanboy
04-09-2009, 09:42
Its been a bit of a joke in my local wargaming club for quite a while that the Emporer acidently killed them, whilst trying to bring them into line. Maybe the missing primarchs challanged him to a duel and he got a bit carried away.
Then later said to some one high up in his command 'Delete all records and if any one asks there were only ever 18. Wink wink.'

I know its daft and we made it up, but we kind of want it to be true.

And yes i know this reply is kind of pointless but im bored at work!

pookie
04-09-2009, 09:42
The two others Primarchs who would have know the same fate (Purged from the Imperial data) are Magnus The Red (for the illegal use of sorcery) and Konrad Curze (murdered Fulgrim and Dorn bodyguards. Innocents genocides on many conquered worlds, destruction of Nostromo). But the Horus Heresy started before.

Murdered Fulgrim? did i miss something, isnt he daemon prince still???

ashc
04-09-2009, 09:45
@pookie: He meant Fulgrim's BODYGUARDS, not Fulgrim ;)

I have 2 theories.

1). Pre-Heresy traitors. Thinking it would never happen again, the Emperor felt it best to completely wipe them from the records. They would have been destroyed by their brothers, and the Emperor is probably the only one with enough clout to ensure all records are permanently removed.

2). Genetic instability. This actually seems a more likely reason considering the traitors of the Horus Heresy are still recorded, and I would think a mutation in the very genes of a primarch/legion is a very realistic way for two forces to be completely annihilated and a good reason to purge all records (what would people think if they knew space marines could become psychopathic mutants at any moment?)

3). Chaos influence happens in the Horus Heresy, but what of Xenos influence? Something similar to Enslavers or 'The Thing' could wipe out legions. Too horrific to contemplate and with no explanation of what it was, the Emperor has all records purged.

There are some ideas anyway. In regards to the purging of the records it seems most like it was the Emperor either way.

Lord Malorne
04-09-2009, 09:47
Well at the very least this seems to imply that something interesting and different happened to them which does not involve turning traitor but something considered worse, whether it was a tragedy and they where lost, or they where lost and its a tragedy, who knows.

ashc
04-09-2009, 09:58
There is another option down to becoming lost or destroyed in warp transit or suchlike, but then why would some parts of the legions (such as Sigismund) wish to completely remove their memory? - That would be something to mourn as a terrible tragedy, not tear down their monuments and purge all records.

I agree with Lord Malorne that it would have to be something unique/unusual for the reaction it garnered.

pookie
04-09-2009, 10:46
@pookie: He meant Fulgrim's BODYGUARDS, not Fulgrim ;)


Yep, quite right, my ability to read is somewhat rubish today!

OT - Maybe this is what links into the Book Nemesis?

maybe they were deposited on the same planet and fought against each other? both dying in the fight without ever knowing they were siblings?

Lord Malorne
04-09-2009, 10:55
Is that so terribale as to be expunged? I think the original idea from GW was of course 'make your own' but over the years the tiny snippets have continued and now I think there is some real mystery behind them, who knows, one dark, dark day GW may unleash them...

pookie
04-09-2009, 11:02
Is that so terribale as to be expunged? I think the original idea from GW was of course 'make your own' but over the years the tiny snippets have continued and now I think there is some real mystery behind them, who knows, one dark, dark day GW may unleash them...

yes i would say so, its a tradgedy they didnt know they were related.

plus

a warning that wasnt headed? siblings fighting - sounds like a mini HH to me....

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 11:03
They could have suffered different fates at different times, though that implies that Marine Legions aren't a force to be totally relied on.

grissom2006
04-09-2009, 11:05
Not so sure that the Emperor had them Killed mainly through rereading the collected visions and the way Malcador and Dorn talk to each other.

pookie
04-09-2009, 11:05
Is that so terribale as to be expunged? I think the original idea from GW was of course 'make your own' but over the years the tiny snippets have continued and now I think there is some real mystery behind them, who knows, one dark, dark day GW may unleash them...

yes i would say so, its a tradgedy they didnt know they were related.

plus

a warning that wasnt headed? siblings fighting - sounds like a mini HH to me....

**edit** ok miss read the qoute from LT - Seperate Tradgedies, so nope, they cant have fought each other.

Askil the Undecided
04-09-2009, 11:13
Maybe the two missing primarchs got horribly flawed by contact with the warp during the whole "spirited away by the dark gods" thing and died mewling in seething puddles of their own warp-tainted flesh.

My theory is that the Emperor found there were horrific flaws (genetic/warp taint) in these two that was simply too terrible to allow anyone to know too much about.

The big E couldn't afford to damage the morale of his armies during the crusade, especially the morale of the other primachs and their legions and so fearing their reactions the news astartes could be so afflicted, the big E had all the records of them utterly destroyed.

pookie
04-09-2009, 12:11
Maybe the two missing primarchs got horribly flawed by contact with the warp during the whole "spirited away by the dark gods" thing and died mewling in seething puddles of their own warp-tainted flesh.

My theory is that the Emperor found there were horrific flaws (genetic/warp taint) in these two that was simply too terrible to allow anyone to know too much about.

The big E couldn't afford to damage the morale of his armies during the crusade, especially the morale of the other primachs and their legions and so fearing their reactions the news astartes could be so afflicted, the big E had all the records of them utterly destroyed.

hmm that could work, would that mean that there Legions would still be around? Dorn after all does indecate to Malcador that there are other forces available to use in the defence of Terra, malcadors reply is something along the lines of "dont even think that" so maybe, they still have the Gene Seed of the Legions, they were just never created?

Lord Malorne
04-09-2009, 12:14
Wrong.

20 Legions along with 20 Primarchs fought in the great crusade.

grissom2006
04-09-2009, 12:25
And if they hadn't done so they'd never of got a plinth or statue made and make reference to knowing them.

pookie
04-09-2009, 12:28
Wrong.

20 Legions along with 20 Primarchs fought in the great crusade.

as we know, so do you/we think that he found them prior to Horus or After, iirc Horus is noted as the 1st Primarch to be found wasnt he?


And if they hadn't done so they'd never of got a plinth or statue

but why wouldnt they have had a Plincth, the Emp may have arranged to build the Plinth knowing he was working on 20 Primarchs, the Emp afte rall couldnt see the future as well as he thought, he must have thought that he needed 20.

ashc
04-09-2009, 12:35
It is said in that piece of background though that the statues were removed, yes? There definitely were 20 legions with Primarchs and they all fought in the Great Crusade.

I just don't buy a 'mini-Horus Heresy', as the results of the Horus Heresy are still obvious to this day (in imperial history). Why remove those two? What in a heretical sense could be worse than turning half your brothers and killing others and their legions of super-soldiers, not to mention the imperial army, mechanicus and navy, that then leads to mass genocide and almost the destruction of the human race itself, crippling the one man who tried to build everything from nothing, and resulting in you having to be psychically scourged from the universe?

My preferred story is genetic instability. If people found out just how unstable those two legions had been then it would put the whole of the Great Crusade and the Space Marine and Primarchs places in the galaxy in jeapordy, not to mention the suspicion and horror that could be induced in the space marines knowing their bodies could be ticking timebombs of genetic corruption.

This would also explain why nothing is left of these legions; if they turned traitor then they could easily have just run off to hide in the warp/far reaches of the galaxy and then turn up as the current traitors do. Instead there is nothing left of them. If they were genetically corrupt then chances are none of them could survive that.

Purge all records. Deny all knowledge. The horror of dealing with your own flesh and blood warped because of your own genetic designs is terrible enough.

pookie
04-09-2009, 14:13
that does in some ways make Sence Ashc.


Dorn indecates that they could call upon at least some of one/both those Legions to Malcador, whilst he is planning the defence of the Palace, but maybe due to the excelerated way Marines were made back then, he was hoping to 'make' some more from there Gene seed? and Malcadors warning was due to the unstable nature fo the Gene Seed?

ashc
04-09-2009, 14:15
that does in some ways make Sence Ashc.


Dorn indecates that they could call upon at least some of one/both those Legions to Malcador, whilst he is planning the defence of the Palace, but maybe due to the excelerated way Marines were made back then, he was hoping to 'make' some more from there Gene seed? and Malcadors warning was due to the unstable nature fo the Gene Seed?

In a way that then also links to what Corax actually did with his depleted legion and its results.

Askil the Undecided
04-09-2009, 14:30
Wrong.

20 Legions along with 20 Primarchs fought in the great crusade.

What do you mean? how does this invalidate the theory of a genetic/warp taint?

I never said when the big E might have discovered such a thing but as ashc has basically reiterated my point in far more detail (which I had purposely avoided) it must have at least some merit at the very least in the mind of gamers.

ashc
04-09-2009, 14:34
Indeed, remember there is a kind of gap between Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. It also may have happened during or near to the end of the Great Crusade.

So yeah, plenty of time for something to happen to two legions before the HH kicked off. :)

pookie
04-09-2009, 15:04
In a way that then also links to what Corax actually did with his depleted legion and its results.

very true, and would support your thoughts, and also to add, Maybe Vulkan was aware of Corax doing this, so he didnt, hence why his the Legion' was never split into chapters, he didnt want to go and make the same mistakes Corax did.

Cygnusmaximus
04-09-2009, 16:23
I always got serious Cain and Abel vibes from the missing legions...

BUT the OP asked who deleted the records, not why - so this is all off topic.

I think the OP did a good job of showing that the Emperor wasn't the one responsible for removing the records, as he could have done quite a bit more to keep people from realizing that two primarchs were missing.

I do think we'd have to know more about WHY the Primarchs and their legions were missing to know who deleted the records. I would hazard a guess that the reasoning had something to do with the new "Cult of the God Emperor," and that the records of the lost two legions would somehow compromise the stranglehold it had/has on Imperial citizenry.

Hopefully GW will give us a few more clues in the future.

Revelations
04-09-2009, 16:30
I've always enjoyed the Genetic Mutation bit, since we have so much evidence for that occuring already; SW, BA, etc. It would make sense that even the Emperor would want that information covered up.

I've also come up with another rather far fetched theory. We know that all the Primarchs shared *some* form of the Emperors power, and one was once described as invisibility. I think it might have been interesting if one of the Primarchs just simply disappeared, so not even the Emperor or other Primarchs knew *exactly* what happened to him.

The even more far fetched one is that after the great Crusade the Emperor was killed by something (remember he wasn't invincible, coughwarbosscough) and was replaced by one of the Primarchs. Perhaps one of the Primarchs had the power of transformation and another, such as Magnus, used their powers to alter their memories so one assumed the identity of the Emperor in body and mind. Then they had to manipulate the others in the same way, and ended up costing the life of the 2nd one, either in their sacrifice to keep the secret or maybe was the one who killed or was killed by the Emperor.

Many good crazy theories. Part of me wants to know, but another part wants to keep them forever mysteries. Unlike what obviously happened internally with the Dark Angels.

Hrw-Amen
04-09-2009, 16:53
Perhaps the numbers of the marines in each of the two missing legions were depleated to such an extent during the wars of unification and/or early history of the great crusade that they simply became unviable as stand alone legions.

I cannot remember which, but was not one of the other legions down to just a few hundred men at the start of the great crusade and nearly suffered a similar fate.

Perhaps knowing this and for whatever reason not having a big enough bank of gene seed left to rebuild them they were sent with thier Primarks on some mission that was likely or for whatever reason did end in tradegdy and they were all killed down to a man.

Maybe the only reason the plinths were covered up was as some sort of formof respect for the dead legions, like people pull a sheet up over a corpse or whatever. Maybe that when the statues of those chapters that followed Horus were removed then these to were as well, not out of disrespect or anything, maybe the emperor planned to put them in a shrine dedcated to the fallen but before that could happen he was cut down himself and entomned upon the golden throne and the knowledge of them and where abouts of the statues was lost with him. Perhaps the knowledge it is still there in the records but burried so deep that noone has looked under the huge pile of books and manuscripts, just waitng fo someone or thing to uncover it?

Cygnusmaximus
04-09-2009, 17:37
Perhaps the numbers of the marines in each of the two missing legions were depleated to such an extent during the wars of unification and/or early history of the great crusade that they simply became unviable as stand alone legions.

It was the Emperor's Children.

I cannot remember which, but was not one of the other legions down to just a few hundred men at the start of the great crusade and nearly suffered a similar fate.
It was the Emperor's Children.

Perhaps knowing this and for whatever reason not having a big enough bank of gene seed left to rebuild them they were sent with thier Primarks on some mission that was likely or for whatever reason did end in tradegdy and they were all killed down to a man.

Maybe the only reason the plinths were covered up was as some sort of formof respect for the dead legions, like people pull a sheet up over a corpse or whatever. Maybe that when the statues of those chapters that followed Horus were removed then these to were as well, not out of disrespect or anything, maybe the emperor planned to put them in a shrine dedcated to the fallen but before that could happen he was cut down himself and entomned upon the golden throne and the knowledge of them and where abouts of the statues was lost with him. Perhaps the knowledge it is still there in the records but burried so deep that noone has looked under the huge pile of books and manuscripts, just waitng fo someone or thing to uncover it?

Read the OP's quote - the "Lost Legion" statues were already gone. The Traitors' statues were simply covered.

And:

I'm not interested in exploring what the two missing space marine legions and their primarchs did wrong...

I added the emphasis there, but the "what happened to the missing legions" question has really been done to death on these boards.

ashc
04-09-2009, 18:02
I don't think you can discuss who purged the records without considering why they were purged in the first place.

Cygnusmaximus
04-09-2009, 18:24
I don't think you can discuss who purged the records without considering why they were purged in the first place.

Fair enough. My point was mostly directed at those who have posted theories about what happened to them with no discussion of the records being deleted, why it would have been justified, and who would have removed them.

Condottiere
04-09-2009, 18:29
Which is why it might not just have been one person or organization, who following their own particular agendas, may have purged part or all of the information at various times for a variety of reasons.

grissom2006
04-09-2009, 18:37
I still remember when the major theory years and years ago was the Tyranids had to be one of the lost legions. Many cited the old fluff line that they seemed to be heading straight for Terra, as if drawn there but that they was also afraid to go there.

Which kind of has me wonder did he hold one of those Legions back to map out and explore the Webway and that some how they became lost to him.

Wolfblade670
04-09-2009, 23:04
That is actually a rather intruiging, if really far out, idea. That one of the legions at some point in their history mutated into something totally alien, something so unhuman as to be unacceptable to the new human Imperium.

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 00:01
Dual X chromosomes.

Lothlanathorian
05-09-2009, 02:41
Dual X chromosomes.

NEVAR!!

Are you trying to incite a riot? That is just an unbelievable mutation.;)

slaanghoul
05-09-2009, 04:48
IMO, when we want to cover up or delete something. . . it is our fault. I don't think the two missing legions did something bad. In fact, I think the imperial did something bad to them. . . . .

Koryphaus
05-09-2009, 08:32
Until the Lightning Tower, there was never any reason for the Legions to be deleted prior to the Horus Heresy - it could have happened at any point in the 10,000 years of the Imperium. All it would have taken was for 1 button to be pressed by accident.

Remember, we don't know if that archive is a galaxy-wide archive, or if it is the archive of a single base, perhaps it is only a handheld data slate?

ML Kurze
05-09-2009, 09:03
I don't think you can discuss who purged the records without considering why they were purged in the first place.

Fair enough. My point was mostly directed at those who have posted theories about what happened to them with no discussion of the records being deleted, why it would have been justified, and who would have removed them.
Agreed there, but I was afraid, as usually happens, that the discussing would just go on about what might have happened to them without going in to who deleted the records. I think that will bring us closer to finding out what happened to them, rather then just going the old way around. That has been done perhaps a little bit to much.


Which is why it might not just have been one person or organization, who following their own particular agendas, may have purged part or all of the information at various times for a variety of reasons.
A possibility, but not very typical of the GW universe. Or for my desire to see one clearly defined guilty party :p :evilgrin:


Dual X chromosomes.
Sweet... heresy, heresy, heresy I say! As said multiple times in multiple places, the geneseed is bound to the Y-chromosome.
If you're interested in how that would work, look for Lastie's work in the Stories and Art section.


IMO, when we want to cover up or delete something. . . it is our fault. I don't think the two missing legions did something bad. In fact, I think the imperial did something bad to them. . . . .
Also possible, but I doubt that the Imperium made two legions disappear because they wore white armour after Unification Day.

gunners
05-09-2009, 09:14
I think "slaanghoul's" idea make sense..It does explain why the traitor legions didn't get deleted, or purged.
And if the Emperor did do some wrong the high lords of Terra and/or the "church" have every to gain by make this certain story disapear for good..
Their whole powerbase is build around the godification of the emperor. And it more or less lies in the word GOD that mistake are not made, and if no human is perfect, well the one and only gods sure as hell must be...

If you imagene a kind of Meeting at Nicea( where the now accepted gospels was chosen and several others was discarded) to make Jesus seem perfect..

Good reason for the same powerstruggle og powerbase creating to happen in far, but not so differrent future:eek:

God i hate working on a saturday morning:cries:, but that is what warseer is for, and especially the background forums.:D

Lord-Caerolion
05-09-2009, 09:20
I think "slaanghoul's" idea make sense..It does explain why the traitor legions didn't get deleted, or purged.
And if the Emperor did do some wrong the high lords of Terra and/or the "church" have every to gain by make this certain story disapear for good..
Their whole powerbase is build around the godification of the emperor. And it more or less lies in the word GOD that mistake are not made, and if no human is perfect, well the one and only gods sure as hell must be...

If you imagene a kind of Meeting at Nicea( where the now accepted gospels was chosen and several others was discarded) to make Jesus seem perfect..

Good reason for the same powerstruggle og powerbase creating to happen in far, but not so differrent future:eek:

God i hate working on a saturday morning:cries:, but that is what warseer is for, and especially the background forums.:D

Well, that could work, apart from the fact that whatever happened happened before the Heresy itself, long before the Emperor was widely believed to be a God.

ML Kurze
05-09-2009, 09:28
The geneseed corruption theory does sound interesting. In an Index Astartes it is said that the accelerated geneseed replication to keep the legions at full strength caused genetic imperfections, which aided in the corruption of the traitor legions. But they need to have done something horrible which may have been caused by their mutation. Mutation on its own isn't enough to cause their disappearance. After all, Magnus had only a single eye, Russ has canines, Sanguinius had wings and Alpharius and Omegon.. well, let's not linger on the whole one soul two body thing.

But it still leaves the option open that someone other then the Emperor deleted the records. After all, these genetic problems were only 'discovered' in the aftermath of Horus' Rebellion. So, someone in the aftermath, reasoning that the two previously removed legions could be construed as a warning, decided to remove their records to insulate their own power position.

With this in mind, I think either Dorn or Guilleman are the most likely suspects. Dorn's thoughts touch my reasoning with a needle. From his musings that they could have been a warning unheeded, it is a small step to blaming the Emperor from ignoring the signs. Also, Guilleman came with the solution to breaking up the legions to ensure no-one ever wielded the power of a full legion again, but also to ensure genetic purity. And since he was very loyal to the regime, it isn't unthinkable that previous proof of genetic impurity and resulting disloyalty was removed by him.

Of course I'm not suggesting that the Imperium had suffered a previous and minor heresy, but I do believe that these legions were considered by some to be a precursor of Horus' betrayal, or a warning of the possibility that Astartes could be disloyal. But because at the time it was only considered something minor, the plinths remained as a symbol.
After all, the Emperor didn't remove the statues of Horus and his ilk. Perhaps they didn't step over some kind of boundary the other two primarchs did cross. Though I can't think of anything that could be worse then torching an entire planet, perhaps the missing two did something so horrible that Horus actions were mild when compaired. Or the Emperor loved Horus more and hoped his rebellion would cease quickly with his defeat and surrender on Isstvan/Istvaan V as Caesar hoped after his victories over the Optimates in the civil war. Either way, removing the statues was something the Emperor wasn't ready and willing to do yet. Clearly indicative of something.

ML Kurze
05-09-2009, 09:30
Well, that could work, apart from the fact that whatever happened happened before the Heresy itself, long before the Emperor was widely believed to be a God.
But if what happened before the Heresy ever became known, the godlike aspect of the Emperor would be discredited even further. Allowing Horus to start a rebellion is one thing, suffering or allowing something similar to happen before Horus even turned is something different. Two times a charm.

geoffkemp
05-09-2009, 09:46
I`ll just stick to a theory I heard 9 - 10 years ago from a well placed source ..... And Administrative Error

Marsekay
05-09-2009, 09:46
There is another option down to becoming lost or destroyed in warp transit or suchlike, but then why would some parts of the legions (such as Sigismund) wish to completely remove their memory? - That would be something to mourn as a terrible tragedy, not tear down their monuments and purge all records.

I agree with Lord Malorne that it would have to be something unique/unusual for the reaction it garnered.

Sounds to me like they didnt want to join the crusades perhaps?
They probably said no and got banished.
thats enough to make emp and the other primarchs dislike them.

Lord-Caerolion
05-09-2009, 09:53
You're still seeing it as the records being deleted post-Heresy to protect the Emperor. Seeing as their statues have been removed during the Heresy, the records will have been deleted before then, and it seems stupid for the Emperor to want to make himself seem godlike then. It had to have been the Emperor who deleted them.

Marsekay
05-09-2009, 10:05
Ok, heres an idea.

perhaps during the heresy the emp thought the imperium would fail, and so secretly sent 2 legions to go into hiding to create a new imperium under his rules as an insurance policy.

he then wiped the memory of these legions so nobody/chaos would not know where they went or why.

If nobody knows about them then they cant seek them out and destroy them.

Pherom Sichar
05-09-2009, 11:35
Well, that could work, apart from the fact that whatever happened happened before the Heresy itself, long before the Emperor was widely believed to be a God.

You mean in the way that all the stuff Jesus did happened hundreds of years before Nicea?

I think it's perfectly plausible.

Lord-Caerolion
05-09-2009, 12:00
You mean in the way that all the stuff Jesus did happened hundreds of years before Nicea?

I think it's perfectly plausible.

No, I mean like back when the Emperor was actively denying his divinity. Last I checked, Jesus never denied he was the son of God. The Emperor denied he was a God at every chance he got.
So no, the Emperor didn't do anything to help him be seen as a God, as he didn't want that to happen.

Fallen DA
05-09-2009, 12:02
They could have been caste out into unchartered space as punishment by the Emperor, with they're fleets? And told never to return?

Urath
05-09-2009, 12:28
This is actually a very interesting thread, especially considering I thought it would be another "who are the lost primarchs?" thread. Good form :)

Okay, so we have the traitor primarchs, shrouded, but not cast down and yet we have two primarchs, with no information about them what so ever, who are completely vaccant.

It is indeed interesting.

Could we say that, the reason for the Traitor statues still standing, is that they were once loyal to the Emperor? They helped to forge the Imperium and, the Emperor believed that shards of their former selves remained... Or even that he could perhaps sort the mess out? I don't know, but it sounds feasible. They were still his sons and were once his greatest commanders, perhaps the Emperor refused to believe there was nio way back for them, as had been his stance with Horus in the older fluff.

The forgotten primarchs. Now, for their records to have been expunged they would not necessarily have done some great evil, greater than casting aside oaths, pledging yourselves to your father's and races' immortal nemesis and then butchering all that the you helped create. Perhaps, when the Emperor happened upon their worlds, they simply didn't wish to join him?

But then, twenty Primarchs and their twenty legions fought in the Crusade. At least in the beginning. There could be parallels with Angron here, in that, the Primarchs didn't want to leave their worlds and join the Emperor and fight in his Crusade. Perhaps they were too human, like Vulkan; failed experiments. So when they saw their chance, they left the Crusade, with their Legions and returned to their homeworlds. Or, they ventured beyong the veil of our galaxy to fight some percieved threat, and never returned.

Is it possible that, in the first instance, they deleted their own records?

gunners
05-09-2009, 12:52
But by denying his divinity didn't stop some people and SM (Lorgar and the rest of the world bearer legion). So it is rather safe to assume there was followeres of the divinity theory. And if the emperor or the empire made a mistake iwth these to legions it is safe to assume they wanted to, so to say, wash of the stench of failure..
Later post heresy the legions have been erased al together. While pre-heresy thay where merely removed from the public or lower leadership goverment.

Still works fine with the geneseed theory.. To assume that some space marines geneseed was corrupted would debatable question the Emperor's own blood. And therefor as close to heresy as possible assuming the dear old emperor IS a god in the eyes of the post heresy human civilization.

Could everybody keep track on that rant??:D

gunners
05-09-2009, 12:58
Is it possible that, in the first instance, they deleted their own records?

Now this adds a whole new spin to an already interesting plot...
Might be, one could imagine a primarch have the needed "acces code"...
Have to let the mind run this through a couple of time before a proper reply comes to mind:eyebrows:...

grissom2006
05-09-2009, 13:25
Now this adds a whole new spin to an already interesting plot...
Might be, one could imagine a primarch have the needed "acces code"...
Have to let the mind run this through a couple of time before a proper reply comes to mind:eyebrows:...

And just so happen to wipe all memory at the same time of all those who knew them including their fellow Primarchs, more likely they was told not to speak of them maybe even blocked from doing so.

Urath
05-09-2009, 14:01
Well no, they obviously didn't mind wipe anyone. Yeah, the Primarchs were told not to speak of them... Which you said in your post, too.

Confusing.

If the missing primarchs deleted their own records, surely their brothers wouldn't speak of them in shame.

Ddraiglais
05-09-2009, 14:18
Here's a theory: The nine traitor primarchs would have eventually have been removed too. It's just that the Emp wanted to bring them back into the fold until the last moment (don't some argue that he held back when he fought Horus?). By the time the Emp would have ordered all memory of the nine traitors to be removed, he was already a vegetable.

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 14:22
Sweet... heresy, heresy, heresy I say! As said multiple times in multiple places, the geneseed is bound to the Y-chromosome.
If you're interested in how that would work, look for Lastie's work in the Stories and Art section. A mutation was suggested. This mutation just happned to allow geneseed to work with X chromosomes.

grissom2006
05-09-2009, 14:26
Only thing there is we don't know how long it took before the Emperor he lapsed into a state that he could no longer talk. We know that the Emperor gave the Order for Night Haunter to be terminated and for the founding of the Grey Knights personally. I reckon he slowly deteriorated as he struggled more and more with his injuries maintaining the the Webway opening and the Astronomican. So continued to order the crusade and the rest of it as best and as long as he could.

grissom2006
05-09-2009, 15:09
The historical references that are being made are very intuitive, GW has used the history of Western Christianity and way back into the annals of Rome as the base for all its background on the Primarchs.

What if however we are looking at this from the wrong perspective, what if the lost Primachs were not traitors or deviations at all. What if they were too loyal? That is too say what if they worshipped the Emperor as a god and pursued this in such an extreme manner he considered it detrimental to the Imperium?

Maybe they were destroyed/excommunicated because of this and the act of purging itself was carried out by the Emperor's preferred purveyors of his cult?

Then why treat the Wordbearers any differently after all they spent as much time if not more errecting temples to the Emperor kind of two faced to punish those two and then not him in the same manner.

bobbles
05-09-2009, 15:20
A mutation was suggested. This mutation just happned to allow geneseed to work with X chromosomes.

Quit flogging that dead horse.

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 15:37
It was a mere suggestion.

LexxBomb
05-09-2009, 16:05
I think it could have been that the two legions fought each other (seperate from the Heresy) and that both Primarchs killed each other over something trivial. So maybe personal pride destroyed the two primarchs and their heresy was to destroy the bonds of brotherhood - this could lead to The Emperor or even the Custodes removig their statues and records.

adter all we know that Johnson and Russ fought each other quite often and it was only a vision of the Emperor to Russ that stopped Johnson killing Russ... what if the other 2 didn't heed their vision.

Condottiere
05-09-2009, 16:20
Well, whatever it was, it happened before the heresy.

However, it could have been a harbinger. One Legion did betray it's allegiance to the Emperor, the other discovered this and destroyed it despite being ordered by the Emperor not to undertake any action, but does so anyway, nearly annihilating itself in the struggle. The victorious Primarch returns to the Emperor with his rival's head on a platter, but finds a rather cold welcome from the Emperor, since he believes the offending Legion was destroyed on a misunderstanding, and says he requires obedience from his children.

The Emperor disbands the remnants of the winning Legion and places the nineteenth Primarch in an eternal ice prison, deep frozen for the past ten millenia.

Logan_uc
05-09-2009, 16:43
One of the missing legions are the blood raven, i bet on it, the "lots of psykers" thing can be the reason the primarch is gone... to dangerous a gene seed.

another reason for them being deleted is that there primarch where killed in the GC, the primarch are gods so its not a good thing to now they can be killed by mortals.

pookie
05-09-2009, 16:59
some intrestingthoerys, but people i think are still not taking into account what Dorn thought and seems to me that they did rebel, he mentions it being a warning not headed, to me this is a direct link to the other Primarchs that turned during the HH.

also how should we take what Horus thinks when he looks at Capsual XI during his vision, he does note something about capsual, just offtop my head i cant remeber, though there wasthe theory it was actual capsual IX - and we know what he did to the IX Primarch.

Wolflord Havoc
05-09-2009, 18:13
Okay in answer to the OP (and this is pure speculation on my part).

Both the 2nd and 11th Legions (like all the legions) very likely would have existed before the Emperor found the Primarchs.

Therefore they (and the other 18 Legions) would have been fighting as part of the Great Crusade without the leadership of a Primarch.

So its possible that the 2nd and 11th Primarchs were - Already dead/Corrupted and subsequantly killed (or not...)/killed opposing the Emperor or his forces upon discovery.

For many of these reasons it might have been decided to hide who their primarchs were lest some form of dishoner stain what are otherwise glorious Legion's.

Maybe these legions continued to fight on or were merged with another Legion.

Let us say for example the 11th Legion is in fact "The Rainbow Warriors" Legion. It is possible that this chapter and its successors still exist but have no idea who their primarch is (perhaps they never did the Emperor having discovered their primarch and not liking what he found - slew him and then to protect the 11th Legion erased all records).

Or perhaps time itself is to blame - those Legions and their Primarchs might simply have been casaulties early in the Great Crusade and for mere properganda reasons their existance was kept quite from a growing Imperium.

ashc
05-09-2009, 18:32
I'm pretty sure it has been stated that 20 legions were founded, 20 primarchs created and found, and all of those 20 took part in the Great Crusade.

So near the end or just after, *something* occurs that results in the removal of these Legions from history; inc. statues removed. The Emperor is alive and well at this point.

Makiaveli
05-09-2009, 22:39
My personal theory is this just hasn't been retconned yet. They started off in the beginning planning to use it (ie the make your own primarch/legion) and then decided not to follow up on that angle. So they never made up the actual story to explain it since it would never be needed.

And the whole "don't go there" thing could refer to something totally different, ie the Emperor's private stash of AI robots or something.

FlashGordon
05-09-2009, 23:44
The records of those purging the records have been purged by purgers who where purged etc.

ashc
05-09-2009, 23:48
My personal theory is this just hasn't been retconned yet. They started off in the beginning planning to use it (ie the make your own primarch/legion) and then decided not to follow up on that angle. So they never made up the actual story to explain it since it would never be needed.

And the whole "don't go there" thing could refer to something totally different, ie the Emperor's private stash of AI robots or something.

To be honest, we know that GW did it for 1) historically mirror some information on Roman legions and 2) so people could make up there own.

But you know what the internet is like, and its fun to speculate :)

Lord-Caerolion
06-09-2009, 03:22
I still doubt it was a case of inter-Legionary warfare, as the Horus Heresy was such a shock because nothing like that had happened before. To me, this says that the two deleted Legions did something bad, but didn't fight each other.

Whats interesting though is that a while ago someone found incredible similarities between the Tarot major arcana and the Primarchs. If you look at what a person would be like directed entirely by a single Arcana, they ended up describing almost perfectly one of the Primarchs. An example of this:

Moon = Konrad Curze
A psychic magnet for all sorts of negative emotions, but without any conscious control over the ability. Therefore likely to be plagued by disturbing visions. From this experience of the darkest aspects of humanity he is likely to be very suspicious of contact and of the merits of humans in general. However he is also genuinely perceptive of other's thoughts and motivations.

Distrustful of all forms of structure and possibly a bit of an anarchist. He will be very aware of the subjective aspect of truth, which may bring him into conflict with several of his brothers.

Highly otherworldly, he probably goes through phases of deep melancholia, and always seems rather trapped in his own dreams or more likely, nightmares. He has a self-sacrificing nature that easily slips into self-abusive martyrdom and may try to take all work and blame for failure on himself.

At best, perceptive, inspired, and highly effective through unusual methods.

At worst, paranoid to the point of hysteria or madness, unable to connect to reality, melancholic and fatalistic.


Now, this can be a great help, as it gives descriptions of the two arcana which aren't associated with any of the Primarchs, namely the High Priestess and Fortune.
Now, the High Priestess is described as
At best, a being of pure divine grace, calm, guiding, illuminating, and capable of giving a deep sense of belonging. At worst, the ultimate tempter, conjuring unattainable, ever shifting but irresistable goals and twisting people's minds and desires without them even realising what is happening, all for his own amusement.
and Fortune is described as

At best, warm, generous, welcoming, good humoured, encouraging and inexplicably lucky.

At worst, over-confindent, too trusting, out of touch with people's real thoughts and out of control of events.


If this holds true, we could imagine that the High Priestess Primarch enjoyed manipulating others too much, having a combination of Horus' charisma and Alpharius' ability to plan for anything, and didn't like the Emperor too much, perhaps being a bit of an egotist/megalomaniac.
Deciding that he didn't want to listen to the Emperor any more, he begins to twist the overly-trusting Fortune Primarch to go against what the Emperor said. Together, they begin to carve themselves a seperate "protectorate of the Imperium" or somesuch, Fortune believing they were doing it for the Emperor, when the Priestess was doing it for himself.
Eventually, the Emperor finds out, and manages to peacefully settle the situation. The two Primarchs choose to disband their Legions instead of facing the shame of rejoining the Imperium, and have their records deleted, part of their bargain to vanish forever instead of living with the failure.

This allows us to have a "warning unheeded" in the precedence of a Primarch having loyalty to another Primarch over the Emperor, much like many Legions did with Horus, but allows us to keep the shock "OMG Marines fighting each other!" part of the Heresy.
It also allows for the quote of Dorn of "if that it were 15 Legions", or whatever it was. This seems to me that the two Legions are still vaguely around, and still vaguely Imperial, but still not used.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 05:25
To be honest, we know that GW did it for 1) historically mirror some information on Roman legions and 2) so people could make up there own.

But you know what the internet is like, and its fun to speculate :)I think that successor chapters do allow enough scope to create a wide range of chapters without necessarily requiring two of the originals.

ashc
06-09-2009, 11:42
I think that successor chapters do allow enough scope to create a wide range of chapters without necessarily requiring two of the originals.

I agree completely, saying your chapter is from one of the missing legions is pretty much one of the biggest cliche's going, but it is probably one of the reasons gw put it there :)

khirsath
06-09-2009, 11:56
Ok, I have some hypotheses on this subject:

First off I think only the Emperor and those closest to him could have erased the records if they were erased pre-heresy. The statues were removed pre-heresy, but do we know if the records were expunged at that time?

Secondly, the fate of the two has been described as separate tragedies, so I don't think they destroyed each other.

What if one legion suffered terrible mutations and may have even rebelled against the Emperor? He or Malcador could have covered up the secret to protect the image of the invincible and perfect Astartes. Or something more sinister, maybe the primarch was corrupted by Chaos, and spread his taint to his legion. To those ignorant of Chaos they appeared to be mutations, which could be explained by sour gene-seed. But the Emp saw the truth and didn't want people poking around and possibly discovering the ruinous powers themselves. The unheeded warning perhaps? Of course the Lightning Tower makes it clear that Malcador knows more of Chaos than Dorn, so he could have been responsible as well. He'd have to convince the Emperor.

What if another legion was lost do to a mistake of the Emperor? Maybe he was overconfident and underestimated a foe. He could have sent the Primarch and his entire legion into the webway to eradicate a rather obnoxious xenos species. Said legion could have had lots of psychers like the Thousand Sons (but still early in crusade so the Tsons weren't ready to back them up), so they'd be well equipped to handle a psychic xeno species, but this parts not necessary for the rest of the hypothesis. But the legion and primarch are lost to the man in the battle inside the webway. The Emperor is known to be building a webway device in his basement and not even Horus knew about it. Perhaps he feared that the xeno with their prescient abilities would find out about his attempt to gain control over the webway and thus lead to their destruction. So He erased all records of his failure to ensure his infallible persona as well as to preserve his plans to control and invade the webway.

One question, is there any reference to the Warmaster commanding 20 legions? I know that it is said all 20 fought in the Crusade, but under whose command? Could give some clue as who could erase the records.

grissom2006
06-09-2009, 12:25
What if another legion was lost do to a mistake of the Emperor? Maybe he was overconfident and underestimated a foe. He could have sent the Primarch and his entire legion into the webway to eradicate a rather obnoxious xenos species. Said legion could have had lots of psychers like the Thousand Sons (but still early in crusade so the Tsons weren't ready to back them up), so they'd be well equipped to handle a psychic xeno species, but this parts not necessary for the rest of the hypothesis. But the legion and primarch are lost to the man in the battle inside the webway. The Emperor is known to be building a webway device in his basement and not even Horus knew about it. Perhaps he feared that the xeno with their prescient abilities would find out about his attempt to gain control over the webway and thus lead to their destruction. So He erased all records of his failure to ensure his infallible persona as well as to preserve his plans to control and invade the webway.

One question, is there any reference to the Warmaster commanding 20 legions? I know that it is said all 20 fought in the Crusade, but under whose command? Could give some clue as who could erase the records.

Nice to see someone who's thinking along my lines that one Legion got held back for the Webway.

As to how many Legions Horus Commanded i'd have to go with 17 not knowing when he was made Warmaster and when the two Legions became lost as it was happened time wise.

I think that the Emperor left him in Charge and quite possibly went back to Terra with one of the 2 Legions under his direct command. My theory is that they was to be sent into the Webway to map it and take out any threats there in. But the part i still can't justify is why did he order Dorn back with him as well i know he's set to making the Palace more defendable but this is before the Heresy happens. Why defend walls from outside attack when it could just as easily come from within the walls as well.

Condottiere
06-09-2009, 13:51
On the creation of defences on Terra, it's possible that the Emperor was sure that if anything breaks through those barriers, it would be better within the Palace walls, where the strongest concentration of military force was available and the terrain was mapped out beforehand.

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:45
Besides, when you achieve such a monolithic status of power it is idiocy to leave your very home without defences.

Hrw-Amen
06-09-2009, 21:08
Read the OP's quote - the "Lost Legion" statues were already gone. The Traitors' statues were simply covered.

And:

Originally Posted by ML Kurze
I'm not interested in exploring what the two missing space marine legions and their primarchs did wrong...[/I]
Um, I did say plinth and not statue? (So yes I did read it.)

Also I was not giving/offering a reason for why or what they did, but simply saying that they may not have been deleted or at least not fully. I imagine that the archive is a huge database with lots of subdivisions and all manner storage places some not permenantly online or connectedat all times, for exampe those on ships in the warp.

As other's have implied it is a little thing to press one button by accident.

However the archive / database (Some / much of which may not have been electronically stored?) is probbly vast and no doubt if someone had the time to delve they may find hidden answers unless the inquisition found them first of course. But they may still be there. Just thin of how many lost thingsshow up every year for auction somewhere having been forgotten in atticks and the like and that is not to mention all the official places that may have reasons for keeping things hidden although not actually want to destroy them just incase. I suspect that the Imperium being such a huge and complex edifce would have many such places, even if someone did try to purge the systems, how likely is it they would get every single bit of evidence out?

ashc
07-09-2009, 00:08
If there is still some intact files detailing who those Legions were and what happened, GW certainly ain't telling ;)

Condottiere
07-09-2009, 05:14
If they were placed in 40K's equivalent of the 'web, it might be that records are still being duplicated automatically while viruses go on search and delete missions. How much of that data went off-planet into some isolated system, and would be more recoverable in it's original form, that would be of greater significance.

Urath
07-09-2009, 12:19
Don't worry guys, I've figured it out.

Rainbow Warriors. They were originally a First Founding legion. And who could forget:

The Iron Hearts and Primarch Rubinek :p

ashc
07-09-2009, 12:52
Panic is officially over, Urath got it. :D

Condottiere
07-09-2009, 13:25
For some reason, I hear the opening strains to My Little Pony.

Urath
07-09-2009, 19:50
"Rainbow" Warriors
Iron "Hearts".

What more reasoning do you need ;)

Gdolkin
08-09-2009, 00:53
Let me get this straight.. I'll list the known 'facts', if anyone can cite the sources that'll help.. :
-All 20 Primarchs were found.
-All were united with their Legions, as the Legions were founded on Terra in preparation for the Crusade, before any Primarchs were found.
-All fought alongside their Primarchs during the Crusade.
-The 2nd and 11th Primarchs and their Legions met their mysterious fates at some point during the Crusade, hence Dorn and Malcador's brief exchange about them and the presence of these two vacant plinths alongside nine shrouded Traitors and the loyalists.
The order for said removal of the two statues (but the leaving of the plinths), as well as the shrouding of the Traitors, was given by the Emperor.
-The deletion of the records could still have been done by anyone from the High Lords to the Inquisition at any time since, right?

The Emperor having removed the statues (in contrast to him simply shrouding the Traitors) from an arena in the Palace doesn't necessarily imply he wished all trace of them everywhere expunged. As someone suggested, perhaps he couldn't bear the physical reminder so close to him personally, for whatever reason it is. The original source of this said 'Order Origin Unknown', right? Would 'By Order of the Emperor" have raised too many questions?
Good thread this :)

Leaving the plinths is much the same as the original list of legions where we read 'records deleted' next to 2 and 11.. I guess that was like the order for deletion having failed to conceal itself in this one little file on a dataslate or whatever. Imagine an Inquisitor discovering a file that reveals there were once 20 Legions, when he's only ever learned of 18. We've all seen a bombshell of an information leak in-universe..

abasio
08-09-2009, 01:46
I think the Emperor is one far sighted, coniving manipulator and I believe it was he who had his hand in the disappearance of the 2 missing legions.

Here's my (completely unsupported in any way) theory.

I think the Emperor, while maybe not knowing that the Heresey would break out, planned for any such eventuality no matter how small he thought the chances might be. I reckon the Emperor would have contingency plans and I think the missing legions are part of his "Plan B"

I think that the 2 missing Primarches were the most trusted by the Emperor, he confided in them of his plan for humanitites future but also of his doubts and fears of civil war. In an effort to aid humanities survival he sent them away beyond his light, his sphere of influence where the Astronomicon cannnot reach. Here the two legions formed a second Empire of Humanity based on the Emperor's ideal. Away from the Emperor's light, inter-system travel was more difficult but not impossible (maybe they found other ways for FTL travel over the years) and these two would be able to control a huge Empire seperate from the Imperium that would be ready for the Emperor upon his return, or which could at least propagate the species and lead it towards the Emperor's hope of a fully psychic race. When the time comes, the Imperium will be brought into this other Empire's fold either by consent or force.

Writing this I have just realised it sounds a lot like Foundation & The Second Foundation :p

The Ecclesiarch
08-09-2009, 02:11
The idea of the missing primarchs is something thats been around sinse the begining, its effectively unanswerable, personally from my experiences me and my mates always assumed that this was due to the degredation of knowledge+Imperial records over such a long time that this information went missing. It hardly matters in terms of the Imperium (or thats what we thought) sinse the Imperium is all about purging or doctoring information or simply being unable to effectively maintain all the information it has. I know this is not a satisfactory answer but the motive for these primarchs not being mentioned doesnt rest in the books and was probably meant to be intentional to give the impression of the Imperiums senility, it is a vastly old (in human terms), cantankerous, dogmatic, psychopathic space empire thats effectively falling apart, in my opinion if you answer the mystery of the two missing primarchs you detract from this impression...

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 06:18
I think the Emperor is one far sighted, coniving manipulator and I believe it was he who had his hand in the disappearance of the 2 missing legions.

Here's my (completely unsupported in any way) theory.

I think the Emperor, while maybe not knowing that the Heresey would break out, planned for any such eventuality no matter how small he thought the chances might be. I reckon the Emperor would have contingency plans and I think the missing legions are part of his "Plan B"

I think that the 2 missing Primarches were the most trusted by the Emperor, he confided in them of his plan for humanitites future but also of his doubts and fears of civil war. In an effort to aid humanities survival he sent them away beyond his light, his sphere of influence where the Astronomicon cannnot reach. Here the two legions formed a second Empire of Humanity based on the Emperor's ideal. Away from the Emperor's light, inter-system travel was more difficult but not impossible (maybe they found other ways for FTL travel over the years) and these two would be able to control a huge Empire seperate from the Imperium that would be ready for the Emperor upon his return, or which could at least propagate the species and lead it towards the Emperor's hope of a fully psychic race. When the time comes, the Imperium will be brought into this other Empire's fold either by consent or force.

Writing this I have just realised it sounds a lot like Foundation & The Second Foundation :pMy thought was BattleTech Clans.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 06:27
Sounds to me like they didnt want to join the crusades perhaps?
They probably said no and got banished.
thats enough to make emp and the other primarchs dislike them.

ya not so much
please see teh sig

But i am SO happy that people have finally gotten over the "H killed them in the womb" thing that was going around for what seemed like decades

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 06:29
Let me get this straight.. I'll list the known 'facts', if anyone can cite the sources that'll help.. :


The most current source is Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th edition page 7

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 06:37
Don't worry guys, I've figured it out.

Rainbow Warriors. They were originally a First Founding legion. And who could forget:

The Iron Hearts and Primarch Rubinek :p

Yes, and Leman Russ was originally the greatest Imperial Guardsman and Planetary Governor ever who was elevated to the rank of Primarch

randian
08-09-2009, 09:16
What about the campaign records, after-action reports, and captain's logs of the remaining Legions? The Traitor Legions aren't talking, but not every Loyalist homeworld suffered vast devastation during the Heresy. Their records would have remained intact, which would presumably include interactions with the missing Legions. I bet those are a lot harder to get to and purge than an Administratum archive.

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 09:22
Actually, the Traitor Legions have no cause to remain silent on the subject.

randian
08-09-2009, 09:49
Actually, the Traitor Legions have no cause to remain silent on the subject.
It's not that they have a reason to be silent so much as requests for clarification are likely to be met with hails of bolter fire.

Gdolkin
08-09-2009, 22:17
That's a point, why would the Traitor Legions have been so polite about respecting the censorship order all this time? They love ******* with loyalist whelps' heads by revealing their knowledge of the Crusade and the Heresy, surely something like "Your false Emperor was a coward and a hypocrite who murdered his own sons and erased all records of them and the deed before Horus ever rose against him" (or whatever actually occurred) would be a great taunt for them to use? Bah..
Welcome to Warseer randian, the fun never stops :)

JackBurton01
09-09-2009, 00:11
If you read the conversation between Dorn and Malacdor it sounds like the lost legions and/or primarchs can actually be brought back and Dorn was thinking about going and getting them. So, my theory is they either quit the crusade and retired or they were placed in stasis.

randian
09-09-2009, 01:56
That's a point, why would the Traitor Legions have been so polite about respecting the censorship order all this time?
The most likely reason is GW didn't think it through that far before toying with missing Primarch fluff.

Presuming GW faultless ;), that Dorn doesn't link their memory to Horus suggests that falling to Chaos is not the "tragedy" in question. Any other fate would be unimportant to the Traitor Primarchs, since it probably couldn't be used to spread worship of Chaos.

It is likely that planets that were visited by the missing Legions have had their legends regarding them reinterpreted by succeeding generations. Details that don't match modern Space Marine chapters are ignored as simple error, or as evidence of an unimportant change in livery. An entire region of planets whose tales about Space Marines contain that kind of error would be evidence of the missing Legions to us, but since the missing Legions officially never existed any historian or Inquisitor who came across them would likely also conclude "error or change in livery".

I find it interesting that the statues were removed from the Investiary. That must be a private place within the Palace, since I doubt a Primarch could "wander aimlessly" in the public spaces of any city. He would attract too much attention. What could have been so dangerous that the missing Primarchs must be disappeared even from the notice of the Emperor's most trusted servants? It mustn't have been simple rebellion, since it would make no sense for Dorn to wonder whether their fates were a warning. In that case, there would be no question their fates were a warning!

"When" would likely tell us something about "who", but that's crucial information we don't have.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 05:28
I suspect we'll be told during a period of extreme financial crisis for GW. Or, at least hinted at.

Urath
09-09-2009, 14:28
That's a point, why would the Traitor Legions have been so polite about respecting the censorship order all this time?

Maybe because most of the original traitor legionnaires who would have had any knowledge of the event are either dead, deamon princes or they remain within warp-space overlaps.

pookie
09-09-2009, 14:46
Maybe because most of the original traitor legionnaires who would have had any knowledge of the event are either dead, deamon princes or they remain within warp-space overlaps.

or dont care.

or wouldnt be believed if asked?.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 14:54
Zso Sahaal should know, the Night Lord protagonist of Lord of the Night.

Urath
09-09-2009, 15:29
or dont care.

That was one of my points; being a Deamon Prince or choosing to remain within warpspace overlaps pretty much shows that they don't care.

Revelations
09-09-2009, 17:20
Just had a thought, what if we're looking at this from the wrong perspective? What if the Traitor Primarchs were the ones who deleted the records?

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 17:23
Why and when?

Did they also move the statues?

Cygnusmaximus
09-09-2009, 17:25
Just had a thought, what if we're looking at this from the wrong perspective? What if the Traitor Primarchs were the ones who deleted the records?

That's an interesting thought, though I think the fact that the Emperor had the statues removed shows that there was already a move to get them out of memory before the traitor legions even considered rebelling.

But attributing their disappearance and later "expunging" to one/some of the remaining 18 primarchs sure complicates the situation.

Revelations
09-09-2009, 18:46
If it were part of their plan, then yes, they could have been the ones that removed the statues, or outright destroyed them. And it could have been during the Heresy. Not everyone was going around fighting their fellow Marine; some were destroying local population, infrastructures, and why not; information. If knowledge is power, then why not destroy the knowledge of your enemy?

Let's just say for example that they did have some grevious tragedy that was so horrific even the Emporer took steps to cover it up. Would it be better or worse that said information is no longer available? Either we know what happened and could avoid it or the unseen tragedy forever looms over us as a distinct possibility (regardless of the fact it may or may not have happened yet, we just don't know).

Other theories may include certain rebellious factions starting their own Imperium, whose foundations include the Primarchs themselves. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants to take your own statue with you? Or would other treatures be as important that Primarch statues?

I'm really just throwing ideas out there. It just seems like everyone is pointing their fingers at either the Emporer or the Inquisition. Misdirection is a huge part of a certain Chaos Legions. And if we accept that Chaos, or the Chaos Primarchs, are the only ones that still know the truth; they could have easily been the ones that did it since they're not piping up with the "haha! lok what we did!", although sure, it's not like any of them are doing much anyway.

Or perhaps, and this might be really reaching; the 2 missing Primarchs are the reason the rest of them aren't center stage right now. Why? I dunno...

de Selby
09-09-2009, 19:29
I submit that due to poor leadership and betrayal, they were destroyed by the germans in the teutoburg forest. In space.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 19:44
They lost to mutants/beasts of chaos and the primarchs committed honourable suicide.

Suspicions
09-09-2009, 19:59
I doubt we will ever be told the "actual truth" of this particular mystery. But since we're in the realm of conjecture I humbly submit...

Assuming that the statues of the Fallen Primarchs mentioned in The Lightning Tower were -not- going to be removed (presumably because the Emperor held out some hope of reclaiming them) then the fault/flaw/fate of the two lost legions was so inescapably complete that nothing could ever be done to bring them back...or the Emperor would not take them back, he no longer wanted them.

Do we know if all 20 Primarchs were raised on Human worlds? We know of a few that raised themselves amongst complete wilderness, but on a planet that had -Human- life. I can not recall reading anything that stated, however, that all landed on Human worlds. Maybe these two landed on worlds inhabited by Xenos life? Being super beings they were obviously not slain (the 20 were found and joined the crusade) but perhaps their early years of development planted the seeds of compassion for some Xenos life?

I submit the possibility that after joining the Great Crusade, that the 2 Primarchs decided to renounce their allegiance to the Emperor due to their inability to quash their sympathy for the alien races they and their legions were forced to eradicate. We must keep in mind that when discussing the fate of the 2 lost Primarchs, we can not forget the fate of their entire Legions (several thousand Marines each) in the process.

The only crime worse than betraying the Emperor (as Horus and the other 8 did) would be desertion...cowardice...weakness. Worthy of removing the statues...yes? no?

Personally, I prefer that one of the Primarchs was lost in this fashion...the other due to some horribly Genetic quark that manifested much later.

To answer the original question...I believe it was the Emperor's choice (though I give a nod to the inevitable degradation of knowledge, that creeps in over thousands of years being the cause of missing records)

Just 2 more cents to the $ pool

Emperor's Grace
09-09-2009, 21:08
I'll vote for something along the Sinestro motif.

Gods amongst men deciding that they need not serve man.

No chaos involvement, they just weary of the yoke/fail to see the reasoning and split to make their own empires.

Big E hasn't the heart to completely remove them completely (plinths) from his private places as they are still "his sons" but can't bear to look at them as they would be a constant reminder of their rejection of him and his vision.

Knowledge is removed as he is all about the united front/"the dream" and can't have the rabble see the split.

Rambings follow:

As to their fate, they could have:
1) been killed/placed into stasis by the Emp quietly (adding to his tragedy but remaining unknown to all others)
2) been banished/left for parts yet unknown (to avoid brother vs brother conflict)

It's possibly a combo as the tragadies were "separate". Maybe one banished, the other killed when he refused banishment, etc...

The legionairres could have been mindwiped and put in stasis or banished to a planet with a feudal tech level without their gear.

Either would have allowed Dorn's recommendation to "call them back to service"

I do also kind of like the idea that one went wrong and the other misunderstood the big E's rant about it and rid him of the "troublesome priest" with the big E killing him after in a fit of rage. Fits with the whole dydfunctional family thing GW has going...

Overall, the chaos legions would probably not be able to use the knowledge (if retained) as the folks they're fighting have no actual knowledge of it and aren't about to believe the enemy.

I'd definitely say that the Emp struck the records but time did the rest.



Writing this I have just realised it sounds a lot like Foundation & The Second Foundation :p

My thought was BattleTech Clans.

What about Dune? :DIsn't one of the central ideas in the later books to decentralize humanity and avoid complete die off in a catastrophe?

pointyteeth
09-09-2009, 23:27
As to who deleted the records, this line leads me to believe it was the Emperor.

"Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one heeded?"

I don't have anything to back this up except a gut feeling. Plinths II and XI had been vacant "for a long time". If they had in fact fallen to chaos/opposed the Emperor's ideals for humanity, the Emperor may have considered them to be failures and had their statues removed and records deleted, leaving only the plinths as a reminder to the remaining Primarchs (who would likely be the only ones to remember who they were) of the cost of turning against him. Once the other 9 legions fell to chaos, the Emperor may have realized that the failing wasn't with the Primarchs but with their creator, hence why the traitor Primarch's statues were only covered and records only sealed.

A lot of great ideas on this thread, makes for an interesting read.

tau_caste
10-09-2009, 04:38
wasnt there something in one of the horus heresy novels that said horus broke 2 of the primarch chambers? maybe they died early and the legions that were meant to go under their control were spread into the others

Condottiere
10-09-2009, 10:27
What about Dune? :DIsn't one of the central ideas in the later books to decentralize humanity and avoid complete die off in a catastrophe?
Sons shouldn't meddle with the words of their father.

Emperor's Grace
10-09-2009, 13:16
Sons shouldn't meddle with the words of their father.

Agreed, but if memory serves I meant later in the original series, not the stuff that followed from his kid. (I've only read the original series).

I seem to remember the theme really surfacing around "God-Emperor of Dune" possibly with hints in "Children".

Unless you were referring to Leto II's use of Paul/the Golden Path rather than the path itself?

piddlinggaley
10-09-2009, 13:33
I think they were probably destroyed in some way, killed off or perhaps lost in the warp, umm legion of the dammed?

grissom2006
10-09-2009, 13:40
wasnt there something in one of the horus heresy novels that said horus broke 2 of the primarch chambers? maybe they died early and the legions that were meant to go under their control were spread into the others

Depends on whether or not you see that as what happened in the snatching of them or that it was a twisted version of what they did created by the Chaos Gods. But as has been stated all the Primarch were found and united.

Condottiere
10-09-2009, 14:25
Agreed, but if memory serves I meant later in the original series, not the stuff that followed from his kid. (I've only read the original series).

I seem to remember the theme really surfacing around "God-Emperor of Dune" possibly with hints in "Children".

Unless you were referring to Leto II's use of Paul/the Golden Path rather than the path itself?I vaguely recall Leto II having such a plan, though I try to repress everything after Children.

Emperor's Grace
11-09-2009, 15:05
umm legion of the dammed?

Nope, LoD are fairly solidly linked to the Fire Hawks (21st founding).


I vaguely recall Leto II having such a plan, though I try to repress everything after Children.

I wish I could but the memories continue to surface.... :D

Cygnusmaximus
11-09-2009, 16:21
wasnt there something in one of the horus heresy novels that said horus broke 2 of the primarch chambers? maybe they died early and the legions that were meant to go under their control were spread into the others

Horus only cracked one of them - and it was labeled "II". I also remember him being sad about "wasted potential."

It would be interesting if Primarch II remembered seeing Horus through the glass of his pod and accused him of being a traitor before the Heresy even happened.

That would be quite the warning, and would then justify the Emperor deleting the records - banishing/killing a primarch and his legion for accusing a traitor of treachery makes you look bad.

grissom2006
11-09-2009, 16:32
But by the same token the Emperor is included saying no and not to do it to Horus so explain away that part of it if a infant Primarch saw Horus for what he did yet the Emperor did not. If that part of the book is taken as the truth of what happened to the Primarchs when stolen away.

Cygnusmaximus
11-09-2009, 19:57
But by the same token the Emperor is included saying no and not to do it to Horus so explain away that part of it if a infant Primarch saw Horus for what he did yet the Emperor did not. If that part of the book is taken as the truth of what happened to the Primarchs when stolen away.

Touché

++++

grissom2006
11-09-2009, 20:01
Touché

++++

Not really as seen as i remember the whole story line that sirens and lights start flashing and the Emperor and his Custodians entering the room to find a scene of distruction, and the Primarchs gone. As point out by another person Chaos doesn't tell lies it just manipulates the truth in order to get what it wants.

The whole thing with Horus seeing the infant Primarchs has been gone over in other threads you either take it at face value in HH or question it. If indeed Horus got called out as a Traitor though he wouldn't of needed to be as by HH the Emperor saw his guilt of it in the past. I personally thing that Horus saw it through the eyes of the Chaos Gods and the added the Emperor in for added effect, plus they imagined his devastation at seeing them gone. Kind of a wish i could of seen the look on his face when he see's what we have done.

The Warmaster
12-09-2009, 03:58
Heh, didn't take long for this to collapse into your standard Missing Legions thread... they should just make a sticky for the topic, or something.

I've always been partial to the idea of the two Legions being caught out and expunged from records for engineering some Illuminati-style plot to gain control of the Imperium (think Alpha Legion, but muuuuuuch bigger). There's obviously no real evidence to back me up on that one, but I like the idea of them having run things secretly for a while (even possibly having some kind of hand in engineering the Heresy). Perhaps they even uncovered a deep, dark secret about the Emperor and/or the founding of the Imperium, or something like that, and were put to the chopping blocks for it. And maybe the remnants are still pulling the High Lords' strings in the 41st Millennium...

Just my thoughts, anyhow.

Warsurge
12-09-2009, 05:18
Do you think it could because it they don't want people to know that more than half of the Imperium turned on itself? What side do you think would be right, the side with most people or the side with the least amount of people? Obviously the group with the most people because you think the more people are in that group, the higher amount of chances you will get to be correct. If this was found out more of the Imperium would have probably gone traitor.

Just some speculation but all the same fun.

@Suspicions: Woah, man that totally sounded full proof! Good job :D

Suspicions
12-09-2009, 13:40
;) As has been stated before...

This topic has come up so very often that I'm certain we've all developed our own preferential ideas as to the "truth" of the Missing Legions...

Actually, now I'm kind of liking the idea that the Emperor put a gag order on -everything- once he learned that the Loyal Imperium were actually in the minority! 11 Traitor Legions against 9 Loyalists? Naturally, worlds would have been fleeing from the Emperor's light at an unrecoverable rate should that become public knowledge...

No matter how often this topic surfaces, something new always seems to pop up. No wonder the truth will never be known! :)
Cheers

Condottiere
12-09-2009, 14:15
We need to put Inquisitor Fuchs Moulder on the case.

Fobster
12-09-2009, 14:23
I'm more partial to them being annihilated in battle. Much like the XVII, XVIII, XIX legions they were based on.

The Anarchist
12-09-2009, 21:00
maybe a odd one but is it possible that these primarchs joined their legions and were cowards, were affraid of combat or the larger universe they were exposed to after they were discovered by the Emperor. afterall that would be a reason to remove their memory possible. similar things happened in ancient rome to members of patrician families that ran from the feild of battle.
alternativly the legions were more loyal to their primarch than the Emperor, might the two legions have decided to leave the galaxy, maybe they are what gave the tyranids our scent eventualy lol.

is it not also possible that the two legions fought amongst themselves, similar to Dark Angels and almsot wiped themselves out, killed their primarch such to an extent as to be unlikly to be rebuilt, or not trusted enough to ebuild.

Cheesolith
12-09-2009, 21:24
Given the resurgence of Toasters in the fluff(albeit as incompetent pieces of scrap), perhaps at least one of them attacked a live tomb world some time back and had his legion completely eradicated. His memory was purged because "during our expansion we stumbled upon some metal skeletons with lasers and they killed an immortal demigod along with an army of super humans. Donations for the creation of a replacement primarch can be sent to The Emperor, Golden Throne, Terra" would make some awfully bad propaganda.

The Anarchist
12-09-2009, 21:39
having read through all the thread nows it strikes me we are answering the question the wrong way.

look at it from another side; who at the time before the Heresy had the power to have both the primarchs statues removed. i would probably say only the emperor, Malcador or the Primarchs. reason i say this Sigismund asked permission to move a statue and hes a captain, so fairly influential individual.

It could also be possible that all their records were an action of the Heresy, for example Horus was Warmaster for two years before turning traitor he might have for some reason deleted the records.

if all the records were deleted post Heresy any Primarch, a decision by the High Lords or senior enough Inquisitors might have done it.

a final idea is that the traitor Primarchs would have possible still had acsess codes that could do alot of information fixing, even if not the more important military files. so maybe as a mark of respect, affection or warning a Primarch depeted the records on their way to Terra or the eye of Terror.

Arkondak
15-09-2009, 10:23
The Emperor never really was all that big on letting other people in on what he was up to. He could have sent them off on some sort of secret errand and deleted the records himself to cover it up.


And my own insane theory... :rolleyes:

Because the primarchs were described as being scattered across space and time or something like that, personally think that one of the missing primarchs went back in time to terra at some point before M30, I think that the emperor, who existed up till that point as a warp entity only, selected that primarch as his host and combined souls with the primarch. This would explain the emperor's huge stature and the fact that Grey Knights are created from the Emperor's gene seed. I am still undecided on wether or not the Emperor knew all of this and engineered the scattering event on purpose, or simply was trying to engineer beings as impressive as the body he was inhabiting, and he lost his infant self on accident, not knowing it was him.

As an alternative he could have waited until his younger self was a primarch with a legion and then sent his younger adult self back specifically to provide a host body to join the spirit emperor and spark the great crusade. This would be a huge incentive for a cover up, and nobody else would likely know what happened.

x-esiv-4c
15-09-2009, 11:47
"We need to put Inquisitor Fuchs Moulder on the case"

Forget that, how about Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau? (Check RT book, he's in there)

Onisuzume
15-09-2009, 13:28
In a way that then also links to what Corax actually did with his depleted legion and its results.
The Weregeld, yes...

Maybe Vulkan was aware of Corax doing this, so he didnt
Corax knew the risks... So Vulkan probably knew the risks as well.

Sweet... heresy, heresy, heresy I say! As said multiple times in multiple places, the geneseed is bound to the Y-chromosome.

And a *lot* is possible with the genetic engineering that was available to the Emperor.

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if some tech-adept stubled over the wire of the databanks holding all the data of those two legions, unplugging them from the mainframe. Later they came back and tried all sorts of rites and rituals to get it working, but forgot to plug them back in. :rolleyes:

Then again Lion El'Johnson might also be a suspect in similar vain as Guilleman is.
Or, they ventured beyong the veil of our galaxy to fight some percieved threat, and never returned.
Tyranids perhaps?

My thought was BattleTech Clans.
With Primarchs Nicholas and Natasha (again, double X)?

pookie
15-09-2009, 13:35
Horus only cracked one of them - and it was labeled "II". I also remember him being sad about "wasted potential."


it was XI not II - klots of theorist have said maybe he looked at the number upside down, and it actually was IX - we all know what happened between Horus and the 9th Primarch.