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hiram
13-01-2006, 06:22
So, alittle while ago I'm playing against one of my co-workers at the shop and I go to charge a unit of Choas Warriors, right. He looks smuggly across the table and says "take a fear check". I retorted "For what!?". He then proceeds to inform me that said warriors were devoted to Nurgle.

Ready for the kicker,

THEY WERE PAINTED RED AND BRASS!!!:wtf:

In the end after he dodged some of my BS2 dice hucking, I took the check and passed, but still annoying.

comments?

m1s1n
13-01-2006, 06:57
If it was a tourney he would have been violating the WYSIWYG rules. Since you were playing as friends he should have informed you that he was proxying models. I don't mind playing against my friends if they are proxying, but I expect them to let me know before we begin so that I can take that into account.

hiram
13-01-2006, 07:15
Yeah, I've fought against a box of matches but i knew it was a predator.

Sayu
13-01-2006, 08:09
Colour scheme shouldn't be necessarily indicative. There's no rule saying you can't paint your Nurgle Warriors red, your Orcs Purple or your Lizardmen Sotek spawnings in Blue. It's entirely an artistic choice. (Kinda like how people who say that a beautiful looking army painted like Blood Angels can't use Codex rules. Arrgh!)

Personally, I'd just be happy not to be playing against the old Silver and Grey colour scheme (metal and plastic) for a change.


Though, in all honesty, he should have made it clear to you before the game started.

(My Marines are painted Dark Green so when I exchange army lists before a game I always make it very clear that they are not Dark Angels)

Azazel
13-01-2006, 23:18
Assumption is the mother of all !$% ups. Had you seen some Red and Brass Chaos Warriors you should ask : "Are those Warriors of Khorne I take it?".

Trunks
14-01-2006, 04:37
My nurgle army has red as it's primary color.

There is not a "color requirement" for "what you see is what you get". That would be ridiculous. If the opponent had unit full of models that have the mark of khorne painted on them and then pulled this "but they are really nurgle" thing, that is against the WYSIWYG concept.

m1s1n
14-01-2006, 05:55
My nurgle army has red as it's primary color.

There is not a "color requirement" for "what you see is what you get". That would be ridiculous. If the opponent had unit full of models that have the mark of khorne painted on them and then pulled this "but they are really nurgle" thing, that is against the WYSIWYG concept.

Yeah, I agree. I thought the original post mentioned that they were styled as Khorne, but they were only painted in a similar fashion.

god octo
14-01-2006, 12:57
Visuals dont always help. You cant model spites onto a model so my friends dragon lord got help up for 3 turns by a branchwraithe with annoyance of netlings that he didnt know about.

Latro
14-01-2006, 14:31
Since units Marked by a specific God would be very recognizable, I always point them out to my opponent before the game ... even more so if the colour-scheme would be confusing.

Unwanted surprises like that ruin the fun of the game.


:cool:

Cpt. Drill
14-01-2006, 14:36
TBH they could have been either really clever nurgle warriors who thought they would dress up as khorne to scare off people....

Or they were new devotees to the father and hadnt really turned green yet...

Luke
14-01-2006, 14:53
well, i can appreciate your outrage Hiram. i am one of those gamers who paints and converts units appropriatly to how they are inteded to be fielded, even if this makes my options slimmer in different games. imho it is entirely appropriate to field red and brass warriors as either khorne or undivided, but to call them nurgle is simply just "not cricket" and round our way, such an individual would find himself very short of opponents very quickly.

Mad Makz
14-01-2006, 23:03
yeah, using models painted as one thing that could be contradictory to what they are and NOT pointing them out as such goes against the idea of WYSIWYG.

Red nurgle warriors I can buy. I can even buy a friend using Khornate miniatures as Nurgle if he told me before hand he wanted to try out Nurgle for the game.

But you HAVE to tell your opponent.

I have a unit of Cyborg Clanrats (converted from a box of Clanrats and box of Necrons) that I used as Plaguemonks in a 'Skryre' themed army (no, it wasn't a SAD, it was pretty light on the Skryre weapons and warlocks, I just wanted the theme of it to be a warlord clan with a strong allegiance to skryre).

I HAVE to point out to people tha they are plaguemonks, because they are non-standard miniatures. People looking at them will generally go 'what are those' and then I will explain, but if they don't ask I will still make sure I point it out, otherwise they get to combat or shoot at them or something and go "Oh, I thought those were just Clanrats" and they will potentially feel cheated.

Neknoh
14-01-2006, 23:37
However, they are still the required models, they ARE Chaos Warriors, they are not heavely converted Marauders or empire troops. Nurgle Warriors can also be painted red and brazen, in fact, I think it would look rather good if executed properly.

Although, when he didn't measure for Frenzy, you SHOULD have told him to do so if you thought they were Warriors of Khorne, when he said he didn't have to, then you shoul have asked why.

So, it's partially your own fault

... by the way... did he have any other marked units in his army? Was his general marked?

hiram
15-01-2006, 01:14
Yeah, your right a little bad on my part, put I'm still learning the system I have been a 40k player for a long while so I'm still not as sharp as I would like to be with the rules.

On the other hand, the rest of his army was undivided and painted the same way.

ThePlagueBearer
15-01-2006, 01:24
TBH they could have been either really clever nurgle warriors who thought they would dress up as khorne to scare off people....

Or they were new devotees to the father and hadnt really turned green yet...


Yeah something like that

Trunks
15-01-2006, 05:40
Visuals dont always help. You cant model spites onto a model so my friends dragon lord got help up for 3 turns by a branchwraithe with annoyance of netlings that he didnt know about.

You aren't suppose to tell opponents about Magic Items, Virtues, Vows, Spites, or any other upgrades like that that wouldn't be immediately obvious (marks of khorne on a khorne unit). The opponent can see you have a sword, he can't know "what sword", this is why there are magic items that reveal enemy items. You shouldn't "know" that branchwraith X has annoyance of netlings until you are in combat with it unless your opponent always uses the same army list. Just like I shouldn't know that your Vampire has Summon Wolves beforehand.

Elannion
15-01-2006, 16:34
I'm in two minds about this really, one is thatas a general you wouldn't know exactly what all troops, were what they did and what they looked like. As stated you might see that they have certain features of a marked unit, but i don't think that everything should always be blazingly obvious what they are. Obviously there probably should be some kind of sign that they are abit different or summit and if they looked obviously khorne then, maybe something should of been said. However aslong as they weren't running about mascarading as khorne warriors with khorne signs and the works, then you shouldn't really rely on the fact that they are painted similar, one can see where you had a proble, but i also think that you can't rely just on sight cause lots of things come in disguieses in warhammer. At the end of the day also, giving a mark to a unit is similar to giving it a magic standard and you don't paint on the units banner this is the banner of the lady of the lake, nor do you by the rules have to say it is either.

TeddyC
15-01-2006, 17:12
If he puts down a unit that is obviously red and brass.... and look Khornate to not tell you is practically cheating....

If you played a daemonhost and put down a tzeentch deamon army only to tell your opponent half way through 'actually this is khorne... feel the wrath of my close combat' I can imagine youd be out the gaming club faster than you could protest your innocence... If its deceptive then you should tell your opponent in my eyes....

Sayu
15-01-2006, 17:35
This is also just a striking indication of why you should never copy a GW colour scheme for anything - it limits your options much more later compared to making up your own. (Purple and Silver Chaos Warriors = Any Mark)

HiredSword.
15-01-2006, 17:43
I think that really you have two realistic options:

1. just talk to the guy and say that he should of told you before the game, it might just be a one off thing and won't happen again and imo you could forget it.

2. There's nothing like sweet sweet revenge :evilgrin: next time he charges your great eagle or whatever just explain 'eagle? no. you see that's just a treeman using his eagle aspect' pretty soon he'll get the idea about not telling people before games about his units.

Drasanil
15-01-2006, 17:52
I think he should have told you before hand, especialy when all things considered the Mark of Nurgle is the mark which is the most blatantly obvious on any chaos follower. The armour's color only comes into affect when you don't visualise the most obvious of the chaos marks. If it ain't bloated, rotting, and oozing, it better be green or it's not nurgle, thats my take on it. Because if it doesn't look Nurgly it obviously wouldn't cause fear.

Scythe
15-01-2006, 19:02
However, they are still the required models, they ARE Chaos Warriors, they are not heavely converted Marauders or empire troops. Nurgle Warriors can also be painted red and brazen, in fact, I think it would look rather good if executed properly.


Nah, I don't agree entirely with you. Red and brazen painted warriors automatically have some kind of Khorne feeling to them, since red is just the color of Khorne. He should at least have pointed out that they were Nurgle warriors before the battle. I don't care if miniatures are unpainted, their arms have fallen of or are painted pink with yellow flowers. Heck I have even played against empty bases in the past. However I like to know what each troop type represents, especially if it could be confusing. You expect Nurgle warriors to be greenish. Nothing wrong with painting them red, but you should tell it your opponent.

That aside, it is generally a good idea to go over the enemy units before the game start. I made it my second nature to do a quick question round to my opponent if each unit is acctually what it looks it is, if the equipment is correct, and if that odd looking miniature is a hero or a mage. Helps a lot.

Makaber
15-01-2006, 19:12
Around here at least, it is common courtesy to point out the number, type, command, and any marks or visible upgrades in units before the game starts. A mark is a visible feature on troops, and should be either very obvious, or informed of before the game, especially when they're painted in a scheme so closely associated with another diety.

Hywel
15-01-2006, 19:23
I agree entirely. All games should start with 5 minutes explaining your armies to each other, just like you discuss terrain features and so on, that way everybody knows where they stand.

It's not like you're trying to trick your opponents... at least I hope not.

Shimmergloom
15-01-2006, 21:00
I agree with everyone saying that you can paint your minis however you want and with whatever paint scheme you want.

The only thing you have to do is when you place the unit on the table say, these are knights of khorne or warriors of nurgle, whatever.

You can't just put knights or any chaos unit on the table that can have marks and not say what faction they follow.

Fortdeadlykick
15-01-2006, 22:17
As far as I know, Magic items, banners, and other secret items like fanatics and assasins are the only things that have to be secret. It is my opinion that it should be mandatory to declare EVERYTHING else. As a previous poster said, name, number, character, armaments, and also upgrades, marks, special rules like frenzy, immune to psychology, stubborn, Treewhack/strangle root, bull charge, animosity, chariots as units, ambush, high elves fight in three ranks, repeater crossbow rules, anything and everything. Alot of the time it isn't really enough to just hand over army sheets, everything should be summarised. The game IS more fun when both sides are playing the same game. It's like playing chess and not telling the other guy that knights can move in a L. He SHOULD know, lord, He should know by now, how many god damn times do you have to tell him? For god sakes, sometimes he forgets in the middle of a game. Anyway, it's more fun.

There should be no fun on either side if a player thinks he can try and punch a few holes in a treeman with skink poison so his saurus oldblood might have a chance to stave it's head in, only to have thet unit taken apart by a rule he didn't know existed. Obviously it would be a great idea for each player to get a general feel of armies and their special rules (wood elves might take a while to master) by a quick look over their army book, but sometimes that isn't possible without breaking some laws, and it's pointless and miserable to have a situation where your whole plan falls apart because you didn't know grail knights were immune to psychology.

(And anybody with plans to tell me why they or I shouldn't waste my time on people who can't learn the rules, it takes all of thirty seconds usually to make sure my opponent is aware of what my units are capable. I do not demand my opponent do the same, only extend the invitation by doing so myself. I do not enjoy winning through misinformation, and do not enjoy my opponents packing up with dissaponted looks on their face because otherwise viable and intellegent strategies fell apart because those boarboys are in fact savage, not regular flavour. I like my games to be fun for both sides, or it isn't fun for me.)

((Also, I usually end up to be the only one not proxying models, or playing with broken knights of the realm as questing or errant knights, or a big unit of silver-grey glade guard as wild riders. So it REALLY pisses me of when they cannot extend the civility of a summary when they turn up with broken, unpainted or even unglued (WTF! Unglued? What does he do all day?) models))

(((I hope all that didn't sound like a rant)))

Fortdeadlykick
15-01-2006, 22:22
Oh yeah, and you can paint them or model them any damn ay you want, just TELL ME. As long as you can come up with some half assed reason why those empty slottabases make a unit of horrors, I'll be fine. (Or a damn cool reason, like cyborg clanrats. Cudos is due for an original use of clan skyre)

Shimmergloom
16-01-2006, 01:34
I don't think you have to tell every single special rule though before the game. If you did, then you'd be there an hour explaining what each rule means and does.

Some special rules, yeah I can see you needing to say them. Such as warpaint on savage orcs or whether the unit is fast cav or not. But every single rule. no.

Mad Makz
16-01-2006, 02:47
Among other things for the Nurgle thing, the models cause FEAR. Fear causing enemy models are going to be obvious to a general, I mean, he looks across the battlefield, see's something that looks unholy and terrible (however it comes dressed) and knows his troops will surely feel the same and may not be able to hold against them.

The arguement that the general 'might not know' is certainly a poor one for such units! :)

Trunks
16-01-2006, 03:39
If he puts down a unit that is obviously red and brass.... and look Khornate to not tell you is practically cheating....

If you played a daemonhost and put down a tzeentch deamon army only to tell your opponent half way through 'actually this is khorne... feel the wrath of my close combat' I can imagine youd be out the gaming club faster than you could protest your innocence... If its deceptive then you should tell your opponent in my eyes....

That's completely different though. Warriors of Khorne and Warriors of Nurgle use the same models. It's not like using Horrors and then randomly exclaiming they are bloodletters, that is ridiculous.

Fortdeadlykick
16-01-2006, 11:01
Obviously I don't go through what rules like frenzy and stubborn does in the summary (although most of the time they still don't know, so I have to explain. I think I should find some new players, these guys are just dumb and lazy.)

It's FAR better to play a guy or gal who knows what you are talking about when you list the units and their upgrades, which is why I strive to locate the details of my elusive and unregistered local club.

Drasanil
16-01-2006, 17:35
That's completely different though. Warriors of Khorne and Warriors of Nurgle use the same models. It's not like using Horrors and then randomly exclaiming they are bloodletters, that is ridiculous.

Not much different, Red and Brass are Khorne's primary colours and if they don't look Nurgly(which is what the Mark of Nurgle does in order to cause fear), it really is an affront to WYSIWYG, fluff, and the spirit of the game.

Crazy Harborc
16-01-2006, 21:39
IF, an opponent doesn't say "this is a .......unit" I/we ask (each other). That's what I am used to in any wargame game/rules/etc. IMHO, ALL games should be "friendly", including at a tournie.

Shimmergloom
16-01-2006, 22:42
Not much different, Red and Brass are Khorne's primary colours and if they don't look Nurgly(which is what the Mark of Nurgle does in order to cause fear), it really is an affront to WYSIWYG, fluff, and the spirit of the game.

Only in tournies or vs really anal opponents do you find that wysiwyg is required.

Most people allow proxies and different paint schemes and all sorts of other variations that don't adhere to wysiwyg.

For instance most of my night goblins have either short bows or spears, cause GW doesn't give you hand weapons anymore. And it costs a small mint to get usable and passable arms for hand weapons on the gobbos. And not everyone wants to sit around filing down spear after spear to make them look like clubs or swords.

So they are always night goblins with handweapons when I play and I tell the person that. It's never wysiwyg.

Ganymede
16-01-2006, 23:24
I can sympathise. Due to posing issues with standard clanrat handweapon positioning, I equip all my clanrats with spears and simply call them hand weapons.

Ratchet
18-01-2006, 14:54
The rule of my local games club is that to play a game you have to have a written and legible list, detialing all options and points costs, and at the beginning of everygame you swap lists with your opponent. you can then ask for conformation of the way any rules work, special abilities wargear etc. makes for a much more fluid game, and less prone to "mistakes" that happen with the good old fashioned "i can remember my list" nastiness that can go on.

Scythe
18-01-2006, 15:56
It kills of any surprise magic items and things like assassins etc.

Ratchet
18-01-2006, 16:44
It think the pro's outweigh the cons though. It was put in place as we had a raft of complaints and such about "creative" lists that changed as the game went on, wargear and magic weapons that changed etc.

Drasanil
18-01-2006, 17:01
Only in tournies or vs really anal opponents do you find that wysiwyg is required.

I know the rules for WYSIWYG are far more relaxed in WFB(mostly due to characters), which don't get me wrong is fine, a more lenient version of WYSIWYG is pretty reasonnable. How ever there is still a basic foundation to it, don't show up with a horde of goblins and tell me they are dwarves, by the same token don't show up with chaos warriors that are plainly Khornate and tell me they have the mark of nurgle. I made an effort to collect my army properly, converted my characters, and my units are acctualy what they are supposed to be, the least I expect is my opponent to do the same, other wise it just ruins the feel of the battle.


Most people allow proxies and different paint schemes and all sorts of other variations that don't adhere to wysiwyg.

I don't mind proxies or unpainted models to a limited extent and if my opponent has a good reason for feilding them(ie: not having the time to finish the entire unit for one), but constantly playing against proxied armies is innane and ruins the entire feel of the battle. If you made a decent effort to collect your army, the least you can expect is your opponent to do the same, if my dark elves are going up against a Slaanesh army, don't show up with a nurgle one and say they 'count as' Slaanesh, I'll gladly play against your nurgle army, but not your proxied Slaanesh one. *spits*;)


For instance most of my night goblins have either short bows or spears, cause GW doesn't give you hand weapons anymore. And it costs a small mint to get usable and passable arms for hand weapons on the gobbos. And not everyone wants to sit around filing down spear after spear to make them look like clubs or swords.

First there is the 50% rule if more or less half your regiment looks like it's armed with hand weapons you're fine. Especialy when playing goblins, skaven or some other poorly disciplined army, a few odd balls who brought the wrong weapons is in the army's character, so your 'work' load just got cut in half. Second with minimal and really mean minimal effort, a night goblin spear so easily becomes a club or a dagger. Heck if you're really impatient you can just take a lighter to the spear top let it melt and little and it will look like a club in no time. You are just being lazzy, having a properly looking regiment/army is as much part of the hobby as playing a battle or writing an army list.


So they are always night goblins with handweapons when I play and I tell the person that. It's never wysiwyg.

And you're the kind of person who abuses the courtesy of proxiing, and lenient WYSIWYG standards. Like I stated before I have no problems with letting some one use unpainted models or proxies with in reason. But contantly showing up with proxied armies, proxied regiments, unpainted models and so forth is completly unreasonable, I made the effort to collect my army in a proper fashion, and I expect my opponents to do the same. Otherwise you might as well just playing with empty movement trays and pieces of paper.

Cacodemon
18-01-2006, 20:10
To me it doesn't matter how you paint them, but they must be easily identifiable. So if you want to paint your Nurgle Knights red, then go ahead, but they better have scabs, boils and lesions, and have the trisymbol of Nurgle clearly visible.

LaughinGremlin
18-01-2006, 20:41
New devotees to Nurgle who actually "haven't turned green yet" wouldn't be that scary then, right?

Make FEAR-causing models look the part. I want exploding pustules bursting from any exposed arms. I want white and yellow pimple puss exploding out out of visors. Model all this with epoxy "green stuff." THEN, I'll take a fear test! Show Father Nurgle some respect with some really tainted worshipers!!!

Debaser
19-01-2006, 00:30
your friend doesnt sound like a friend at all. any honorable player would allow a different move or would have made completely clear before hand what was what.

Crazy Harborc
19-01-2006, 03:19
I seem to remember that it says to point out what is what in the darn rulebook. None of the "oh those aren't spearmen, they have great weapons".

bloodwraith
19-01-2006, 09:04
I think the idea of exchanging my list with my opponent is not very fun because i don't want to know what hidden items he has, same as i don't want him to know what i have. That's part of the fun, the element of surprise. I can understand why you'd point out what is what but having your plan fall apart because your opponent knows everything about your list is ********.

LaughinGremlin
19-01-2006, 20:39
Bloodwraith, I agree, but there's a difference between surprising your opponent with a magic item like a dispell scroll or Von Horstman's Speculem, and surprising you opponent with a unique troop-type.

I feel that a chaos mark making an entire unit of warriors followers of Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Khorne, thus affecting the stat line of the entire unit possibly, should be made very aware to the opponent.

In other words, I'd say that the WYSIWYG rule for warriors of Nurgle should lean less towards hidden magic items and more towards "have your halberdiers carry halberds for Pete's sake!" No surprise. Now, if your character wants that mace of Nurgle, then WYSIWYG is less important. Surprise!