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Harwammer
05-09-2009, 12:58
If a character is in a unit and he wants to declare a charge must he use his own line of sight or may he use his units?

I'm struggling to find any plain rules about this in the rule book.

I've a feeling page 18, declaring charges may have some bearing on my question, 'It is not necessary for every model to be able to see the enemy - the whole unit is able to charge the enemy so long as one model can do so'.

The phrase 'whole unit' seems pivotal as it could mean 'every model in the unit' or 'any model in the unit'.

The rules for charging also tell us to see page 8 for more on Line of sight.

Page 8 tells us 'if one model in your unit can see at least one model from an enemy unit, that enemy is said to be 'in sight' of your unit'.

The Characters & Units rules (page 72) tells us a character becomes a part of a unit until he decides to leave it.

As such, it seems the character can use his units LoS to declare charges with since he is a part of that unit, is this correct?

Kalandros
05-09-2009, 14:25
The unit isn't doing the charging, thus you would use the character's line of sight.

nosferatu1001
05-09-2009, 14:51
He is bound by his own line of sight, as he is the unit doing the charging.

jaxom
05-09-2009, 14:58
Interesting answer. At the time of the charge declaration he is part of the unit as I thought was established for the Physchology references when it was asked whether or not a character in a fear-causing unit needed to test to charge a fear causer. Is that not correct?

nosferatu1001
05-09-2009, 15:16
He is part of the unit, but he is the one charging and he has to be able to see the unit being charged.

Drachen_Jager
05-09-2009, 17:17
Charge declaration is not Psychology. Also in the Psychology references are not about a character leaving a unit so it's a completely different case. For charging purposes, because he's leaving the unit, he becomes his own separate unit.

T10
05-09-2009, 18:04
If a character is in a unit and he wants to declare a charge must he use his own line of sight or may he use his units?


Obviously this isn't stated specifically in the rules.

When you declare the charge at least one model must be able to see the target unit. Since the rest of the unit is willing to take this model's word at face value ("They're over there! I swear!") and complete the charge, it seems reasonable that the character would too ("Stand back, men! I'll deal with this!").

He would, after all, be the go along with the unit if it charges - most likely he's the one in command and giving the order to charge in the first place.

-T10

Drachen_Jager
05-09-2009, 21:06
"A unit may only declare a charge if at least one model in that unit can see at least one enemy model in the opposing unit"

The "unit" declaring a charge is the character, the unit he's with is NOT the charging unit. Pretty clearly it is stated specifically in the rules T10.

T10
06-09-2009, 11:55
In the Declare Charges part of the Movement phase the character is still a member of the unit: he is not a unit on his own. The fact that he may soon to leave the unit does not change this.

Whatever clarity you perceive is founded on a snipet of rules you've merely invented: that the character is to be treated as a separate unit under these circumstances.

As far as this matter is concerned, the rules do not deal with the issue and we are left to resolve it in whatever manner we find reasonable. I've already made my case, above.

-T10

Foxbat
06-09-2009, 12:23
I have to agree with T10 here as this is specifically noted in the rules. A Character is part of the unit he charges out of it (BRB, pg 73, last paragraph in right hand column). As a result, the Character is part of the unit until moved out of contact with the unit to complete the charge.

However, given the recent FAQ answer where shooting is resolved against the Character’s unit (Feb 2009 Q&A, pg 4, right hand column), it would appear that the interpretation of the rule has been expanded to “the Character is part of the unit until the end of the Character’s charge”, otherwise the Q&A response would not make any sense.

Drachen_Jager
06-09-2009, 17:08
The "unit" declaring a charge is the character, not the unit he's a part of. Just read the rule it's very clear. By your interpretation the book is contradicting it's self, as the sentence I quoted is quite clear. I think rather than the BRB being self contradictory you're just wrong...

Actually by your definition that the character is always a part of the unit until he reaches contact, given a literal reading, the character couldn't charge out of the unit by your interpretation because the character is not a unit yet, and yet a model in the unit must be able to see the opposing unit. Since there is NO "character only" unit yet there are no models in the non-existent unit so it can't see anything.

Foxbat
06-09-2009, 21:58
The "unit" declaring a charge is the character, not the unit he's a part of. Just read the rule it's very clear. By your interpretation the book is contradicting it's self, as the sentence I quoted is quite clear. I think rather than the BRB being self contradictory you're just wrong...
I think you should go back re-read what I wrote.

Further, please explain, how if the Character is now a separate unit, that if the unit from which he charged out from flees due to a stand and shoot charge reaction, the charging character flees with the unit?

Just to help focus the mind, consider this situation, you have a unit of armourless bowmen and an uber-character mounted on a war horse who is immune to flaming attacks. Say the units are 12” apart. The character decides to charge a unit of Flamers, the Flamers stand and shoot. By the Q&A the attacks are resolved against the bowmen, which we will assume kills enough models to force a panic test. Say they panic (for now let’s not get into whose Ld they should test on). The Character’s charge then fails as he flees with the unit. Why is this the case if the Character is a separate unit?

Drachen_Jager
07-09-2009, 01:55
That's a weird FAQ response, but given your strict interpretation of the rules and the rule I quoted it would be impossible for the character to charge out of the unit (as I said, did you read what I said?). The character MUST be counted as a separate unit for LOS purposes when charging for the rule I quoted to be accurate, otherwise it's impossible for the character to charge.

nosferatu1001
07-09-2009, 02:55
At the time the character starts to leave the unit, a stand and shoot reaction already in range cannot differentiate from the unit and character - they are still one unit at that point as far as the firing unit is concerned: no movement has yet occured.

If the unit is 0.5" out of range for stand and shoot at the start of the charge, the stand and shoot is resolved against the character.

Drachen_Jager
07-09-2009, 03:03
Yes, they are one unit as far as stand and shoot is concerned. They are not one unit as far as charge declaration is concerned or the whole charge declaration section needs to be re-written to reflect that.

T10
07-09-2009, 10:33
That's a weird FAQ response, but given your strict interpretation of the rules and the rule I quoted it would be impossible for the character to charge out of the unit (as I said, did you read what I said?).

Since it is indeed possible for characters to charge out of units, I would suggest a different word than "strict" to describe such an interpretation.

-T10

Foxbat
07-09-2009, 10:55
If the unit is 0.5" out of range for stand and shoot at the start of the charge, the stand and shoot is resolved against the character.
While I may agree with this view, until GW has responded in this way either in a Q&A or errata, it still can be as per the current direction or it’s a MIR roll off (assuming you both don't agree to an approach).

And for more fun, think about a charge by a character on a steed out of a unit against a unit of skinks with blowpipes when the initial range is 13”. Do these 12” blow pipes suddenly get a 13” range or do they miss?

nosferatu1001
07-09-2009, 11:41
The FAQ has an implicit "and both are in range of S&S at the start of the charge"

It is saying that, if you are in range for S&S before moving models, you cannot directly target the character as he is still in the unit. So if the skinks are <12" away you do not resolve the s&s directly against the character, it is part of the unit.

If the unit is 13" away then it is impossible to resolve the S&S immediately - they declare S&S agaisnt teh character who is now out of the unit, meaning he can be targetted.

Foxbat
07-09-2009, 13:18
Ok, I can live with that approach for dealing with the S&S response.

As for the initial charge, what's your view on LoS at time of charge again?

nosferatu1001
07-09-2009, 15:16
For consistency the character LOS should be the same as the units, as it keeps things simpler - tbh most of the rules have issues with characters joining and leaving, as there are a few odd cases where the interactions havent been particularly well defined.

Lordy
07-09-2009, 23:40
Presuming the charging character is unit strenght 1, would he not recieve 360 vision if he can't use the units LOS?

nosferatu1001
08-09-2009, 01:27
Excpet his LOS would be blocked by models next to him - that doesnt change.

ce13
08-09-2009, 04:37
Rules wise I think you're going to use the units LOS, 7th edition being all about simplifying the game making things easier. But on the flip side if you use this to pull off a completely weird charge I'd totally ding your sportsmanship score.

T10
08-09-2009, 05:52
The FAQ has an implicit "and both are in range of S&S at the start of the charge"

It is saying that, if you are in range for S&S before moving models, you cannot directly target the character as he is still in the unit. So if the skinks are <12" away you do not resolve the s&s directly against the character, it is part of the unit.

If the unit is 13" away then it is impossible to resolve the S&S immediately - they declare S&S agaisnt teh character who is now out of the unit, meaning he can be targetted.

This is correct. Most situations in Warhammer are a matter of the now, and most actions/events that would be simultaneous in a real-time game are resolved one at a time:

E.g.:
*The charging character is in a unit but is out of range of the shooters.
*The character leaves the unit and stops when in shooting range of all models that will shoot.
* The target unit shoots.

flameberge
13-09-2009, 14:28
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