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Lucifer216
05-09-2009, 23:19
Hi all,

I was wondering if there's been any reason given as to why Erebus and Kor Phaedron, both of whom collectively have the true responsibility for fuelling the Horus Heresy remain very definitely mortal, despite the massive service they have done the Chaos Gods.

It's interesting to note that while Abaddon has been alleged to have turned down the gift of daemonhood due to his obession with getting his fleet to Terra, walking up to the Golden Throne, hitting the off switch and then tearing the resulting corpse to itty little pieces, there has been no justification in the background as to why these two individuals haven't been "blessed".

Anyone have any ideas? I'm currently working on a Word Bearer army of my own with an almost equally large Deathguard contigent and was also wondering if there are any canonical daemon princes within the Word Bearers.

Urath
05-09-2009, 23:22
Apart from Lorgar, I know of none.

trolly
06-09-2009, 00:59
hi,

there must be numerous of them as they most devoted to chaos, so it is easily for WB to reach daemonhood.

cheers,
:D

kylsnik ironhead
06-09-2009, 01:13
I would assume it is because they are undivided so they have to keep all four of the Chaos gods happy whereon a World Eater only has to keep Khorne happy

HK-47
06-09-2009, 01:14
Maybe they also turned it down, so that they can bring the true faith to the heathens of the Imerpium.

Joewrightgm
06-09-2009, 01:30
I think it has more to do with their undivided worship of chaos. The Word Bearers in "Daemon World" are noted to have a disdain for those who worship only one power. Often times, a Chaos God will bless those most worthy with demon hood.

For the Word Bearers, they worship the myriad Gods and demons with equal fervor, probably preventing them from catching the eyes of the Gods for any length of time.

totgeboren
06-09-2009, 11:13
I agree with the above, and it is probably a combination of things.

On one hand we have the issue of them seeing other who worship only one god as about as bad as someone who worships the Emp, hence their own worship will be quite diluted to any one power.

And one other thing, that might be more important is that someone who turns into a daemonprince will see the meddlings of mortals as quite uninteresting.
The most important thing in a Word Bearers life is to spread the Word of Lorgar, and being a DP means they will probably not get to do that anymore. They appear to focus more on the Great Game instead, since they are now a daemon.

Thats probably why we donīt see the Daemon Primarches running around on the battlefields anymore. (I know Angron made an appearance at Armageddon, but they are a very very rare sight.)

Irisado
06-09-2009, 11:23
Yes, I tend to agree that their pacts with all of the Chaos Gods makes it less likely that a Word Bearer Chaos Lord or Sorcerer will catch the eye of a Chaos God, in order to begin the journey to becoming a Daemon Prince.

The lack of Daemon Princes in the Word Bearers legion (that I am aware of at any rate) is actually one of the reasons I am attracted to their background.

grissom2006
06-09-2009, 11:32
They serve far better in their current capacity than they would as a Demon Prince and as such why elevate them.

BrotherMoses
06-09-2009, 13:22
Because the chaos gods are cruel and fickle masters.

massey
06-09-2009, 14:08
No, they do become demon princes. They do it a lot. Word Bearers are noted to have a lot of possessed marines and many demon princes. Why specific people haven't turned? Because none of the main characters become demon princes. Jeez, look at Kharne. He's still mortal, and nobody can say there's a better follower of Khorne than him.

will564752
06-09-2009, 14:34
I would say its because they still want to interact with and still care about the Material Realm. The Word Bearers are one of the only Chaos Legions who largely still care about the destruction of the Imperium, and if Erebus and Kor Phareon were Daemon Princes they wouldn't be able to interact as much in the Material Realm. Just my thoughts!

Aside from that though I don't believe it says anywhere that the Word Bearers have less Daemon Princes than any other Traitor Legion or Warband & they don't necessarily have to please or gain the favour of all 4 Chaos Gods to be elevated to Daemon Prince status. They worship Chaos in all its forms, They worship Chaos in itself, not particular aspects - That doesnt mean they have to appease/please all aspects of Chaos in order to gain Daemonhood...

Urath
06-09-2009, 14:39
No, they do become demon princes. They do it a lot. Word Bearers are noted to have a lot of possessed marines and many demon princes. Why specific people haven't turned? Because none of the main characters become demon princes. Jeez, look at Kharne. He's still mortal, and nobody can say there's a better follower of Khorne than him.

Yeah, but if Kharn was a Deamon Prince he wouldn't be able to venture out into the material realm often enough to butcher. The specific reason that Lucius, Kharn, Ahriman, Abaddon, Typhus and Bile are the main characters is because they still harbour very *human* traits or, that is, they wish to see the Imperium destroyed. Ascending to deamonhood wouldn't help their individual causes at all.

I know that the Black Legion have many possessed marines, but I can't remember hearing this about the Word Bearers: although it's probably likely.

hs5ias
06-09-2009, 15:18
Daemon Princes, no longer being mortals, may simply be uninterested in associating much with their old legion. They become more like Greater Daemons, appearing occasionally when it suits them, rather than being a permanent part of a military unit. It is difficult to imagine an immortal daemon being concerned with rank, promotion, personnel, supplies and all the other tedious matter of mortal affairs. They likely spend most of their time not in the material universe at all, which they would now find a dry and suffocating place. Instead they adventure in the delirium of the warp, which is now their natural environment. When they do appear in the material universe they have to be sustained by a strong flow of chaotic energies. These require a lot of sacrifices, rituals etc which are expensive to produce and maintain.

As a result most of the time it is those of the chaos marines who have chosen to stay mortal that do all the work. Over time those inclined to pursue daemonhood have either perished in the attempt or translated to a different phase of existence. Most of their wars are now waged in the immaterium, with only occasional interludes in the physical world, much like any other daemon.

The chaos marines are not led by daemon princes, and most of the time act without them. Chaos marines seem to do most of their fighting themselves, they don't rely much on summoned daemons to do it for them. They can be a great help, but are difficult to deploy. Daemon princes, like greater daemons, have a mind and will of their own, making it doubly difficult to get them to do what is required. Quite often they will have their own agenda, which may not accord with that of the commanding chaos lord. Since daemon princes are legion members, it can also create a dispute over authority. Who would have command, a chaos lord who leads his marines day-to-day, or the former-legion-member-now-a-daemon who pops up occasionally? Because of all these things those who have chosen to keep their mortal nature, or who have decided not to risk the path of daemonhood, don't rely on the daemon princes.

Iracundus
06-09-2009, 16:02
Lorgar's a Daemon Prince. What he does isn't stated explicitly, but perhaps he's off doing other metaphysical or religious pursuits in the warp.

Like the rest of the Daemon Primarchs with their own planet, he seems to be content to let his underlings run the war. If he gives any commands, I would presume they would be general directives with the Dark Apostles left to figure out the details and plans themselves. Since the Word Bearers still maintain a strict regime of religious worship and religious hierarchy, this distant form of management hasn't entirely resulted in the fragmentation of the Legion.

Killgore
06-09-2009, 18:38
Why wouldnt Word Bearers become Daemon princes? they are much more devoted to the dark gods then say Iron Warriors and NightLords.

Just because no ones bothered writing about a WB Daemon prince doesnt mean that they are not within the WB ranks.

Gimp
06-09-2009, 19:08
It has to do with interaction with the real realm. In very simple terms...

Word Bearers - Want to spread the word of chaos and preach and convert and stuff.

Abbadon - Wants to still invade Imperial Space.

Kharn - Wants to spill more blood and collect more skulls.

Typhus - Wants to spread more plagues.

Ahriman - Wants more psychic lore.

Lucius - Wants more duels.

All these things are better when still a mortal. As for the Word Bearers not becoming deamon princes then how do you explain Iron Warrior deamon princes as they dont even really like chaos.

ctsteel
06-09-2009, 21:37
Perhaps Lorgar himself interferes with the ascension process, lest his devoted followers and Bearers of his holy Word, attempt to become his equals.

Lucifer216
07-09-2009, 04:17
Hi all, some interesting points. Nowhere did I say that I thought that Word Bearers don't become daemon princes. My main question was way so many of those worthy haven't and if anyone knows the name of any canonical word bearer daemon princes aside from Lorgar. I like the point about daemon princes not necessarily being in command. That said wasn't one of the perks of being a daemon prince, a greater connection to the material realm than is the case of greater daemons because of their mortal origins?

kylsnik ironhead
07-09-2009, 04:59
There is the Dark Council it doesn't really ever say that they are Daemon princes but they can take your soul out of the warp and torture it according to Dark Apostle

NightrawenII
07-09-2009, 07:21
I dont know if this does count, but the Dark Apostle Eliphas the Inheritor from Dark Crusade can become a Daemon Prince.

My 2 cents.

Lothlanathorian
07-09-2009, 07:33
...wasn't one of the perks of being a daemon prince, a greater connection to the material realm than is the case of greater daemons because of their mortal origins?

Not sure about that, but it sounds reasonable to me. In the Chaos Daemons Codex, it mentions Princes being treated poorly by the other daemons as they are 'second class' due to their mortal origin. (more like Daemon Paupers, amirite? :angel:)