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Pooky
07-09-2009, 02:50
I was thinking about doing an all Biker army for SM's and was wondering if the idea would actually work game wise. I'm NOT looking to do a White Scars army. The fluff/ theme of the army would be more of a "Knightly" theme, i.e. the SMs are mounted on bikes instead of horses and charge valiantly into battle...

Basically I was thinking of taking the following in an army (roughly 1500 points, I don't have my codex on me)

Captain
+ Bike
+ Relic Blade

Command Squad
+ Bikes
+ 2 Power Weapons (Maybe fists?)

6 Bikes
+ 2 Melta guns
+ Power Fist
+ Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter)

6 Bikes
+ 2 Melta guns
+ Power Fist
+ Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter)

6 Bikes
+ 2 Melta guns
+ Power Fist
+ Attack Bike (Heavy Bolter)

2 Attack Bikes
+ 2 Multimelta

2 Attack Bikes
+ 2 Multimelta

3 Attack Bikes
+ 3 Heavy Bolters

I believe that having very fast moving Meltaguns and Heavy Bolters would be fantastic! One problem I can see is if the enemy catches my units or is clever and sets bait for me that I fall into/ sets diversions from me claiming objectives. I can also see this list having problems against 2+ saves troops and MCs.

So, what do you think? Can the above work? Can all Biker SM lists work?

I have a thread happening in the army list area:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219234

TheSanityAssassin
07-09-2009, 03:10
I've played a full White Scars army once in a while, ususally led by Korsarro in this edition (the Hit and Run, Furious Charging, Outflanking command squad of Doom is AWESOME), and they can definitely work. The big thing to always be aware of is how fragile your army is despite being all T5. Very much the Deathwing philosphy. Only close to within 12" when you KNOW you can wipe out what you're attacking, or else follow up in assault to finish it. You'll run in to trouble in that your expensive bike squads lack a bit of punch due to the small number of models, but if you use your strong mobility to focus your fire, and only assault when you're good and ready to, it can work.

Shas'o Brightsword
07-09-2009, 03:33
one word ravenwing :D

Corpse
07-09-2009, 04:21
Be 40 models of ravenwing or 70 models of vanilla marine on bikes?
Your choice.

Cypher, the Emperor
07-09-2009, 04:57
Werent the Dark Angels originally a bunch of knights before the emperor showed up?

Edonil
07-09-2009, 05:12
That book (Descent of Angels wasn't it?) was a terrible piece of crap and nearly ruined the Horus Heresy books for me. Battle for the Abyss finished that job...

MadHatter
07-09-2009, 06:20
As it has already been siad stay out of close combats you cannot for sure win. I would not worry about holding the objectives in the begining of the game. Keep your opponent off as many as you can and be ready to turbo boost to context them and take them in the last round. The last thing you want to do is sit somewhere and take away your advantage with this army. I have a rather large eldar jetbike force myself and have tons of fun. So I Have no doubte you will enjoy it.

Lothlanathorian
07-09-2009, 07:03
I have a friend who plays Ravenwing. We've both only played a few games of 5th, but they aren't too shabby. I can only picture a Vanilla Marine biker army being even better.

Pooky
07-09-2009, 07:57
The big thing to always be aware of is how fragile your army is despite being all T5. Very much the Deathwing philosphy. Only close to within 12" when you KNOW you can wipe out what you're attacking, or else follow up in assault to finish it. You'll run in to trouble in that your expensive bike squads lack a bit of punch due to the small number of models, but if you use your strong mobility to focus your fire, and only assault when you're good and ready to, it can work.

Under some analysis, I quite agree. I didn't expect T5 to be able to stick it out in the face of the enemy and allow me to be careless. And with even fewer models than the mech/ mounted SM army like I usually take, I need to be all the more careful of my tactics/ game decisions. Conversely I do get to pick and choose my battles, so to speak, due to the units high amount of mobility given by bikes.

I don't really want to do a Deathwing/ Dark Angel army as some have suggested. I know the DA's have Ravenwing which is an all bike/ fast army, but I have personal issues with DAs. (BTW on an unrelated note, I am 90% through Decent of Angels and I must say it is TERRIBLE.)

Now I ask how do you think I should kit out my troop bike squads? I was thinking that perhaps I should have it Power Fist, 2 Flamers, Multimelta. The concept behind this is I don't want the unit to be within 12" of the enemy unless I KNOW I can destroy it. The Flamers are a great anti-infantry/ horde weapon and will thin out the numbers before I charge. The MM allows me to be more than 12" away and still be able to reach out and touch a tank/ MC. I was looking at the build in my OP and saw that if I use the Meltagun then I would be within 12" of the enemy (say a Rhino or LR). If I fail to destroy my target then I will be charged in the next turn, which is all bad. The HB would be useful for thinning down the hordes, but flamers can also do that job.

Lothlanathorian
07-09-2009, 08:08
Why not use Speeders in Fast Attack?

Pooky
07-09-2009, 08:21
Why not use Speeders in Fast Attack?

Because Speeders aren't Bikes! :)

The thought did cross my mind though...

Xelloss
07-09-2009, 08:27
I faced a all SM biker army once. They seems really efficient : one of their great strength is using the KP-rules to their advantage : a lone bike can turbo-boost and hide easily, denying the KP of the squad.

marv335
07-09-2009, 08:44
It can work, but you'll have serious trouble with hordes. Orks in particular will be a hard slog.
What you'll probably find is that you need to concentrate all of your force on a small portion of your opponents army at a time, destroy it and move on before he can react to you.
If you get caught in combat, you're doomed.
Anyone faster than you is a serious threat.

isidril93
07-09-2009, 08:45
maybe instead of distibuting weapons you'd want to keep different bike squads for different things
one with meltas, one with power weapons and flamers, one with power fists
although im not sure if you can do that

rev
07-09-2009, 08:48
Mine was 75% bikes and worked -

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2831616#post2831616

3rd pic down.

Rev

ashc
07-09-2009, 11:34
It can work, take it easy and don't go charging in to combat unless you can guarantee winning in the next round or not getting shot to death after a sweeping advance.

Lash armies will probably absolutely decimate you either way though.



That book (Descent of Angels wasn't it?) was a terrible piece of crap and nearly ruined the Horus Heresy books for me. Battle for the Abyss finished that job...

What's wrong with it, not enough bolter pr0n for you?

Pooky
07-09-2009, 14:28
Lash armies will probably absolutely decimate you either way though.

Hmmm, I never thought of lash spam. Well, only one unit can be lashed at a time. Hopefully there are enough heavy weapons to knock down the DP/ sorc.

nabs
07-09-2009, 14:57
Try running a Librarian with bike lists? That could frustrate Lash/Seer Councils.

Hypaspist
07-09-2009, 15:49
Pooky, my experience is with Ravenwing, though I generally run 3 Speeders and (obviously) less bikes (because of points, and running speeders!), I do sometimes play all bikes though.

I find MC's perfectly manageable (though your mileage may vary due to speeders, as tornado's kick out an *awful* lot of firepower for their points) MM's are good, but MC's (Wraithlord aside) are allergic to small arms fire en masse. - Yes it's a calculated risk, but if your playing something that absolutely *has* to die often its worth putting it out there to kill them.

You need to watch for your opponents targetting your attack bikes, as the (un)-adjusted 4 toughness still makes them very vulnerable to strength 8+ weapons. (you have an added benefit of being able to hide bikes in your squads, however this is also a disadvantage of targetting as you de-facto almost need to make your Attack bikes in your squads Heavy Bolter carriers as they can't split off like RW and go tank hunting).


Battle cannon style weapons str 8 ap 3 will absolutely *ruin* your day (un-adjusted toughness 4 again), so Defilers/Soulgrinders/Leman Russ are things to avoid or kill at your earliest opportunity, and I would definitely add a couple of flamers in there for crowd control as 1 squad with 2 flamers and a heavy bolter attack bike is going to put some serious hurt on any horde army.

Otherwise enjoy! an all bike/ bike-speeder army is great fun and there are weaknesses to them but they also have some great strengths that are a joy to play :-)

Lion El Jason
07-09-2009, 15:52
Werent the Dark Angels originally a bunch of knights before the Black Templars got their own codex?

Fixed that for you ;)

primarch16
07-09-2009, 16:00
Definately can work, you're one of the fastest armys out there and quite resiliant. Don't underestimate the amount of firepower twin linked rapid firing bolters can throw out. My daemons got destroyed by a biker army two weeks ago. Things I'd fear:

-battle cannons
-hordes

But you have speed and cover to help you there.

quatrofromageo
07-09-2009, 16:06
Ravenwing army is quite nasty apparently as it can all outflank.

Hypaspist
07-09-2009, 16:20
Ravenwing army is quite nasty apparently as it can all outflank.

....apart from the Speeders.

Outflanking is overrated though as not only are you splitting your army through reserve rolls, you are also splitting your army on either side of the table *and* in reserve rolls. it can work, but for my money you get more mileage from deploying together.

Not a concern for a vanilla army as they don't get scout or infiltrate to be able to outflank from reserve ;-)

Edonil
07-09-2009, 16:57
Definately can work, you're one of the fastest armys out there and quite resiliant. Don't underestimate the amount of firepower twin linked rapid firing bolters can throw out. My daemons got destroyed by a biker army two weeks ago. Things I'd fear:

-battle cannons
-hordes

But you have speed and cover to help you there.

Also, flamers and heavy flamers, as your armor save becomes only a cover save...

the1stpip
07-09-2009, 17:21
I have a friend who fields a pure bike army with a normal Captain on bike, and it is very effective.

As already stated, you have to play them in a distinct style that can take some getting used to.

Hypaspist
07-09-2009, 18:18
Also, flamers and heavy flamers, as your armor save becomes only a cover save...

Eh?
is this from C: SM as the turbo booster states you benefit from a cover save, not that your save becomes a cover save.... (note it was different in 4th where your armour save became an invulnerable save, due to the wording of the rule).

on topic again, either way pooky you should definitely go for the all biker army (regardless of how you load it out) you will have a whale of a time, and sure, it won't nail *every* opponent, stairs will cause you some small issues, but apart from that it's all gravy :)

505
07-09-2009, 19:14
I have run a mostly bike army for a long time (I have other things but dont use them often)

I run all my buke squads with melta/plasma
and I run my heavys as multi/HB just for the versitility
I do ussually run 2 LS
and a captain or two

its nice as its fast and resilent (but still killable) just be carefull and know what to hit and when

Fallen DA
07-09-2009, 19:20
Ravenwing....

ReveredChaplainDrake
07-09-2009, 22:12
This is the kind of thing you have to worry about with an all-biker army:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217889

The moral of the story: take Khan. You must take Khan.

Pooky
07-09-2009, 23:11
This is the kind of thing you have to worry about with an all-biker army:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217889

The moral of the story: take Khan. You must take Khan.

Lame. That was so very lame. I would refuse to play someone who did that. I play for fun, not to win through cheap loopholes.

Pooky
07-09-2009, 23:15
I don't want to start posting my army lists in this thread, so here is the link:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Please leave some comments. I think I have a very workable list, but a second opinion would be nice.

Edonil
08-09-2009, 03:02
Or, you just field at least one squad on the board so that they can't do that to you.

Voss
08-09-2009, 03:12
Werent the Dark Angels originally a bunch of knights before the emperor showed up?

Native Americans (well, native americans in Space!), at least pre Dark Angels retcon #347.

Bjornin
08-09-2009, 08:46
Not a concern for a vanilla army as they don't get scout or infiltrate to be able to outflank from reserve ;-)

Don't forget that the Khan gives outflank, both to units and transports.

Sleazy
08-09-2009, 09:01
Native Americans (well, native americans in Space!), at least pre Dark Angels retcon #347.

Yes that too. Tho reading Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness would indicate that pre Imperium Calibanites were indeed knights, there was friction with the Terran Dark Angels and after the destruction of Caliban they were forced to recruit from other worlds.... like the tribal world in AOD which would show the current native american style.

Anyway back on topic.... I've always fancied an all biker marine army, probably Ravenwing as I couldnt face painting all those White Scars.

Duce
08-09-2009, 10:26
I'm pondering a bike army still, and seem to find lots of differing information. Some like two captains and command squads tooed for cc, which does seem very expensive, some like keeping small squads of bikes while others swear by full size units.

I'd reckoned assuming 1750 points 3 full squads of bikers with 2 melta guns and a multi melta bike with sgt holding a powerfist wuold be decent for the core. Thats 9 solid melta weapons and 3 power firsts for cc anti vehicle (along with grenades of the bikers get them)

For attack bikes i'm in two minds, are 2 sets of 3 or three set sof 2 better? kill point wise i'd though two sets of 3 and then what weapons?

three heavy bolters and two squads of three means a nice 18 S5 shots at 36 inches. but 6 multi meltas are also appealing.

For command squads if taken is cc really bette rthan taking hellfire rounds on the captain and a relic blade / SS and equipping your squad with 4 special weapons? or three special weapons and comapny champion for the extra just incase CC factor?

Onisuzume
08-09-2009, 11:26
one word ravenwing :D
Exactly.
Either them or White Scars.
But seeing as how the White Scars didn't get much in 5th edition compared to the Ravenwing, it's rather simple what to pick.

Native Americans (well, native americans in Space!), at least pre Dark Angels retcon #347.
Sod Retcons unless they're about rules.

Yes that too. Tho reading Decent of Angels, Fallen Angels and Angels of Darkness would indicate that pre Imperium Calibanites were indeed knights, there was friction with the Terran Dark Angels and after the destruction of Caliban they were forced to recruit from other worlds.... like the tribal world in AOD which would show the current native american style.
Not to mention Codex: Angels of Death or either Codex: Dark Angels.

Lion El Jason
08-09-2009, 12:52
Exactly.
Either them or White Scars.
But seeing as how the White Scars didn't get much in 5th edition compared to the Ravenwing, it's rather simple what to pick.


White Scars got better bikers at lower cost.
Overall its a better list, my 1500 point RW list is ~1000 points in the vanilla codex.
The WS have more options and better HQs too.
All RW really get is 4 scoring units per troops choice.

Onisuzume
08-09-2009, 13:41
Ravenwing gets Land Speeders as troops. :p

Lion El Jason
08-09-2009, 14:17
A landspeeder per troop slot if you gimp list by taking 6 man bike squads...

And remember, OP is talking about all-bike armies.

Xelloss
08-09-2009, 15:20
Lash armies will probably absolutely decimate you either way though.

Being decimated never been a big deal for me. 10% loss seems fine. --v(-_-)v--

Dr. Hellbeast
08-09-2009, 15:25
Being decimated never been a big deal for me. 10% loss seems fine. --v(-_-)v--

Bloody historians. Always understanding the original contexts of words. :D

Ronin_eX
08-09-2009, 21:48
That book (Descent of Angels wasn't it?) was a terrible piece of crap and nearly ruined the Horus Heresy books for me. Battle for the Abyss finished that job...

The book may have been crap (or not, haven't read it) but, well... You know that ever since their codex was published for 2nd Edition in 1996 that the local population of the Deathworld Caliban were made up of knightly orders unified by Lion El'Johnson. This isn't something new that Descent of Angels made up on the spot.

The Dark Angels have always been the Arthurian Knight chapter since the Angels of Death codex. So I don't see what DoA has to do with that specific bit of background myself because it existed long before the Horus Heresy novels.

Just sayin'. :p

And an all bike army works just fine. If people can do it with the Ravenwing then doing it with cheaper bikes (and access to attack bike squads) will work out just fine, if not better. So I say go ahead and try it out, you may like it (incidentally it sounds like the SW will be able to do an all bike force as well if Wolfguard can take bikes).


Native Americans (well, native americans in Space!), at least pre Dark Angels retcon #347.

Actually that simply had more to do with the Deathwing members from a specific world (the Plains World) that the Dark Angels recruited from while they were in the area. As they have no homeworld they recruit from several planets and one had a Native American vibe to it. But even then in the story of the Deathwing a lot of talk was made about how when you became a Dark Angel you shed your old culture and became one of them. A big part of the story was the duality of the characters as Dark Angels and as people from the Plains World. So even back in the day they were a monastic order of knights who recruited from all walks of life and many different cultures.

In the end they were a chapter based around Arthurian legend. Penchant for swords, lots of importance from personal heraldry and ornamentation on their leaders and they were tasked with an impossible quest (a holy grail if you will). The Native American influences have always been fairly minor in their depiction (limited mostly to the feather motif on the Deathwing and the one origin story in the Space Hulk supplement) but many seem to blow it out of proportion thinking it is the whole of their background.

Lion El Jason
09-09-2009, 00:52
True, the Deathwing story has been officially relegated to being "Just a story" in the latest codex, likely not even true.

Onisuzume
09-09-2009, 09:55
It *is* true, or at least partially.
Because there is no other valid reason in the DA's history for why the deathwing would wear ash-white (yes, ash-white, not bone-white) armour instead of the original black or current green.

Lost brother
09-09-2009, 11:18
I have a full Ravenwing company (100 sm on bikes and speeders) and they are pretty damn good but if not use correctly it can become a blood bath. But the thing is that all ravenwing bikes have teleporting homers so Deathwing drop in and its very useful in big games.

Pooky
09-09-2009, 12:34
Just to repeat, NO DARK ANGELS!