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Desert Rain
07-09-2009, 16:14
I've been playing the High Elves for a long time now, and ever since the 7th edition came out I have used basically the same list. But after playing lots of games with it I have found some problems with it, and the list that is presented further down is my attempt to improve on what I feel that the old list was lacking.

However, it isn't perfect yet I need your help to make it as effective as possible!

So first of all the old list:

Archmage: L.4, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll (330 points)

Mage: L.2, Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll (185 points)

20 Spearmen: Full Command, Warbanner (225 points)

20 Spearmen: Full Command (205 points)

10 Archers (110 Points)

18 Swordmasters: Full Command, Banner of Sorcery (350 points)

5 Dragon Princes: Musician (160 points)

5 Dragon Princes (150 points)

Tiranoc Chariot (85 points)

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers (200 points)


Total points: 2000
Power Dice: 9-11 +1 Bound Spell
Dispel Dice: 5 + 2 Scrolls
The biggest problems I have with the above list is the lack of eagles and the spears relatively weak performance against a lot of enemies. They really need a close combat character to make them a bit hitty.

Another problem is the swordmasters, they just die to easily to ranged attacks. In order to avoid that the unit has become the bloated behemoth that it is today. Just to keep some guys alive for the actual fight.

In the list below I have tried to address all of the above issues at the same time. So here is the new list and your comments and tips are worth their weigh in gold!



Archmage (310 points)
- Level 4
- Silver Wand
- 2 Dispel Scrolls

Mage (185 points)
- Level 2
- Seerstaff of Saphery
- Dispel Scroll

Noble (143 points)
- Battle Standard
- Great Weapon
- Armour of Caledor

23 Spearmen (232 points)
- Full Command

10 Archers (110 points)

15 White Lions (305 points)
- Full Command
- Banner of Sorcery

12 Swordmasters (180 points)

5 Dragon Princes (150 points)

Tiranoc Chariot (85 points)

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers (200 points)

2 Great Eagles (100 points)
__________________________________
Total points: 2000

Power Dice: 8 + 1D3
Dispel Dice: 5 + 3 Dispel Scrolls

As you can see the spearmen issue has been solved by dropping one unit, boosting the size of the remaining one a bit and added a fighty character, namely the BSB who also helps out with break tests. The new formation (6x4) also brings more attacks to bear against the enemy.

I have tried to solve the swordmaster issue by decreasing the size of the unit and added some White Lions who with their increased save will probably whether enemy shooting much better than the swordmasters. Presenting the enemy with more than one dangerous close combat unit will possibly make him split his fire between them all thus ensuring that not one unit will have to take on all the missile attacks by itself.

2 Eagles have also been added, and they don't really need further comments;)

The loss of the second Dragon Prince unit is a bit of a blow, but if I want it in I have to drop some of the infantry, and I know that I don't want to do that.

The loss of the Ring of Fury is a bit unfortunate to the magic phase, but it's either the ring or an Eagle.

Hopefully someone will have chewed through all this text and can post a comment!

EvC
07-09-2009, 16:36
White Lions without Lion Banner seems awful wrong :(

Personally I see 12 Swordmasters as a bit of a waste. You could possibly drop 3 of them and take the Ring of Fury after all :)

Desert Rain
07-09-2009, 16:46
White Lions without Lion Banner seems awful wrong :(

Personally I see 12 Swordmasters as a bit of a waste. You could possibly drop 3 of them and take the Ring of Fury after all :)
Yeah I know about the white lions, I really want them to have the lion standard. The problem is that I feel that my magic phase will be to weak without the banner of sorcery.

9 swordmasters, that's a strange unit size, I guess 7+2 for deployment?

Nuada
07-09-2009, 17:09
spears relatively weak performance against a lot of enemies.

You're a more experienced HE player than me (trust me i've played zero games with my HEs so far) But i'd say the special units do the same job as spears, but are better at it.

I always find it awkward to give advice on army lists, because i don't like all lists to be the same, and obviously it's only my opinion.

Personally i'd stick to 2 eagles, take 10 archers, exchange your spearmen for a unit of 13 PG with BoS(with BSB and mage) , reduce your SMs to 7, reduce your WL to 10 give them lion standard, drop the chariot.......but then it's very similar to my list :D

Draconian77
07-09-2009, 17:11
Personally I'd drop the Swordmasters altogether and take 2 units of Lions, one with the Banner of Sorcery and the other with the Lion Standard.

If you keep them on the flanks of the Spearmen(to benefit from the BsB re-roll) you will have a very solid wall of infantry.

I think trying to add a 6th Dragon Prince as well as a Standard Bearer+Warbanner would also be useful. (For fighting)
At the very least they could probably do with a Musician.

Finding the points for these things is difficult though, you would probably have to drop the Chariot, Bolt Thrower or Eagle.

Alternatively, you could also drop 6 Spearmen and deploy them 6x3(Including the BsB). That saves you quite a few points.

My knowledge of the HE magic items isn't all that great, so I can't remember what the Armour of Caledor does. However, assuming that it grants some sort of a Ward save, then mounting him on a barded steed and giving him the Helm of Fotune(For a total of 1+ re-rollable) and a Sword of Might might be a more useful configuration.

Nuada
07-09-2009, 17:24
I can't remember what the Armour of Caledor does.

It gives the BSB a 2+ armour save that can't be improved by any means.

Quite a good magic item i think, it allows the full +2 str from a great weapon. I'm going to have that on my BSB as well :)

Draconian77
07-09-2009, 18:02
A 2+ save and 3 S6 attacks on a M5 model or a 1+ Re-rollable save on a model with 3 S5 attacks(A a single S3 attack from the Horse! :D) with a M value of 8.

In my(own, very humble experience!) even a 2+ save collapses as soon as S5+ attacks come your way and considering how important a BsB is to an army, I think spending more on defense is worth it.

Rawne
07-09-2009, 18:50
id try and get at least 1 unti of 7 swordmasters in here, to use as a hammer unit for the spearsmen, people will think twice about charging your spears if they get a flank charge from swordmasters and for 105pts for 7 its a bargin. regards to BSB ive seen alot of people do what you have suggest, armour of calador, gr8 weapon, only prob i see is lack of ward save. i like temakadors gauntlets, combined with HA thats a 4+ which isnt gr8 but with a 5+ward save against str 4+ atks which lets be honest, people are going to challenge him or try to. or mayb the armour of protection, not a gr8 save only 6+ but if hes with lions wont need to worry about shooting atks as they have brill saves, but it gives u a 4+ ward save :)

the gribbly
07-09-2009, 19:07
Honestly I dont think the bsb is gonna increase the performance of the spear targets much. Also I agree with Draconian77 that a 2+ save doesnt go very far vs hvy hitters IMO (although I still use it) but I find the best defense is in eliminating models that can strike back. The 1+ rerollable bsb with helm is very survivable and a great build to be considered. I also agree that lions without fear immunity are pretty pointless in this environment. Also I have found the WLs often need character support to deny return wounds by allowing them to eliminate the front rank of most units more reliably. Taking into account what you said and without changing too much, heres what I would suggest:

Archmage (360 points)
- Level 4
- Silver Wand
- Dispel Scroll
- sacred incense
- ring of fury

Mage (185 points)
- Level 2
- Seerstaff of Saphery
- Dispel Scroll

Noble (174 points)
- Battle Standard
- Great Weapon
- dragon armour
- banner of sorcery

22 Spearmen (248 points)
- Full Command
- lion std
(mage here)

10 Archers (110 points)

13 White Lions (270 points)
- Full Command
- std of balance
(bsb here)

12 Swordmasters (202 points)
- bladelord
- talisman of loec
(archmage here)

5 Dragon Princes (150 points)

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers (200 points)

2 Great Eagles (100 points)

Total- 1999

Honestly I would probably rather ditch the spears but your lists seem to suggest you enjoy using them so I avoided that option. I know the BsBs protection is nil but your opponent doesnt and this setup allows you to keep the sorcery banner while the unit still enjoys itp and removes frenzy/hate. Plus 10 s6 attacks should really mitigate most incoming damage in conjunction with the champ challenging so your bsbs armor wont be tested very often and with this setup the unit is more likely to stick around than before.

Losing the spears would really open up some options though IMO, like that second unit of dragon princes. Anyway just some ideas. -grib

Desert Rain
07-09-2009, 20:17
First of all, thanks for all the responses!

Regarding the BSB:
I now that the mounted 1+ rerollable save build is great, but I just can't stand cavalry models in an infantry unit. That's why I've used the AoC + GW build instead.

@the gribbly: I like the list. But in my experiance the Sacred Incense isn't that great. It could be replaced with another spearman (for 6x4 formation) and another swordmaster for 7x2 with the archmage.
The BSB could sacrifice some, or more like all, his hitting power buy using hand weapon and shield instead. Or only if the situation demands it.

Draconian77
07-09-2009, 20:27
Hmm, if you dislike mounted models in infantry units, you could try a BsB on foot with the Enchanted shield. It will limit him to S4 but give him a 2+ save.

The advantage over the Armour of Caledor? It's cheap! You would have enough points left over to give him a Ward save or whatever other trinket catches your eye.

I don't have a high Elf book, but the list I would draw up would be something along the lines off;

Archmage
Silver Wand
Dispel Scroll
-1PD(Enemy) +1DD(Owner) (Not sure what it's called, the Annulian Crystal?) I'm also not sure if its Enchanted or Arcane, but either way...I'd try to get it into the list.

*Reason: Currently you have 5 DD, 5 DD is a horrible amount of dice to have in my experience. Mostly, HE players throw 2 DD at 5/6/7+ spells, 3 DD at 8/9/10+ and Scroll anything else. Having an uneven number can be wasteful(As in, the 5th DD gets wasted) when you come up against armies that just use the lower level spells, which is a lot of them. ;)

Mage
Dispel Scroll
Seerstaff

Noble
Bsb
*Better than a 2+ save even at the cost of offence. :D

17 or 23 Spears(6x3 or 6x4)
Full Command, Warbanner or the Standard of Balance if its available to the Spearmen.

10 Archers

14 White Lions
Full Command, Banner of Sorcery

14 White Lions
Full Command, Lion Standard

5-6 Dragon Princes
Musician

2 Bolt Throwers

2 Eagles

Obviously that's rough, I really should buy/download all the army books...

BrPrometheus
08-09-2009, 00:06
I don't think you need the dispell scrolls. If you are going up against a magic heavy army you can cast drain magic. I have bee running with only 4 dispell dice and two mages to cast drain when I need it and I hve even slowed down the 13 pd vampires quite a bit.

That gives you 50 more points.

Instead of a BSB for your spears for hittiness you might consider Korhil. He makes the unit stubborn and a large blocks of stubborn spears with good flank charging units to the side will do well. He is a bit delicate b ut with always strikes first and killing blow he does pretty well. You might also consider Calyndryl (bad spelling I am sure but the pheonix guard special character cuases fear so you can give the lion standard to someone else and when he dies he goes out with a bang. He is pretty expensive.

Desert Rain
08-09-2009, 09:48
I never take the field without scrolls, but one of them might be dropped which frees up 20 points.

And Korhil would be nice, but I don't fancy special characters, so he's out.

wamphyri101
08-09-2009, 10:35
Hey Desert, thought Id give you my thoughts since your always
nice enough to do the same.

The archmage is nice and simple as long as you keep protected, but 3 dispel
scrolls does seem to be alot, expecially since we can cast drain magic for those magic
heavy encounters. maybe swap 1 on the archmage for a sneaky powerstone.

Mage seems nice and fine also. Love being able to pick spells. Too bad its not like the old days
when you it wasn't an item!

bsb is ok also, but maybe worth dropping 1 spearmen and 1 white lion and taking the guardian
pheonix also.

Spearmen is fine, shame you cannot skim points for a warbanner lol

archers always done me good

white lions seems fine, yes you dont have the lion banner/banner of balance but your mages
could run support for that

tbh I would eithe drop the swordmasters to 7 and run them behind the spearmen or white lions and have them
counter strike. The 75pts spared could pimp the army up a bit (ie warbanner, guardian phoenix, extra dragon prince

Plain dragon princes and chariot works well

2 bolt throwers will help cover and add some knight killing/monster power

2 eagles will cover you for march blocking/unit charge blocks. Didnt take any in the last tournament i went in and I think it would
have saved my last 2 games.

Overall I think your list is fine if you run support with the mages rather than magic missile power

Desert Rain
08-09-2009, 19:46
The archmage is nice and simple as long as you keep protected, but 3 dispel
scrolls does seem to be alot, expecially since we can cast drain magic for those magic
heavy encounters. maybe swap 1 on the archmage for a sneaky powerstone.

I agree with three dispel dice is a bit to much, honestly I forgot about Drain Magic when I designed the list. Nice of you guys to remind me of it:)



Mage seems nice and fine also. Love being able to pick spells. Too bad its not like the old days
when you it wasn't an item!
Argee, that build is probably the most efficient one on a L.2 supporting a L.4. I miss the old Seer too;)



bsb is ok also, but maybe worth dropping 1 spearmen and 1 white lion and taking the guardian
pheonix also.
I know that I don't want to drop any spearmen, so he will have to do with inly the armour unless I can find some points elsewhere.




Spearmen is fine, shame you cannot skim points for a warbanner lol
If I drop one of the scrolls, as you suggested above, those points can be used for buying the War Banner.



archers always done me good
Me to, they are useful for killing light troops and taking away rank bonuses from the enemy's main combat units.



white lions seems fine, yes you dont have the lion banner/banner of balance but your mages
could run support for that
As I said before I would like to have the Lion Standard on them, but then the BSB wouldn't have any protection but the troops his bodyguard kills before the enemy can strike back. As suggested by the gribbly



tbh I would eithe drop the swordmasters to 7 and run them behind the spearmen or white lions and have them
counter strike. The 75pts spared could pimp the army up a bit (ie warbanner, guardian phoenix, extra dragon prince
I might try that, but I've always seen the 7 sword master unit as to fragile for my taste.


Plain dragon princes and chariot works well
You're right about that! They always serve me well ;)



2 bolt throwers will help cover and add some knight killing/monster power
Exactly, never leave home without them!



2 eagles will cover you for march blocking/unit charge blocks. Didnt take any in the last tournament i went in and I think it would
have saved my last 2 games.
I've always missed having them and I have great faith in their potential.



I'll have to do a bit thinking and I promise to post an updated list later this (for me) evening.

BTW, 1000 posts with this one:D

Draconian77
09-09-2009, 21:42
Congratulations! You have now officially wasted too much time on this forum. ;):D