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Bauhaus86
08-09-2009, 05:59
Hello everyone,

First a little background. I have been playing for many years. I was away from the hobby for a while but returned about 18 months ago. I have always been a chaos fan so I picked up daemons when they were released. After playing them in a campaign and a few games, I have not touched them for well over six months. I of course enjoy winning, but they were too easy. I moved to Warriors upon their release, but they have also proven to be a bit dull and simple. I am not claiming to be a great tactician or anything, but it is time for a challenge! So Tomb Kings it is....

With that decided, I plan to do this as a bit of a secret project. I have painted undead before and can get them done pretty quickly. So I am looking to put together a 2000pt force and surprise my regular opponents with it. I enjoy magic heavy armies but would like to have a bit of shooting as well.

With that in mind, I humbly ask for some advice. As always, I will be collecting mmodels based on what I like the look of. Below you will find a list of what I do and don't like. If anyone could suggest a roster based around my preferences, that would be much appreciated! It doesn't have to be a super poerful force (I realise Tomb Kings are considered underpowered), but something reasonably competitive for allcomers. So, here we go....

Characters: I have no problems with any of these.
Core: I like skeletons, chariots and swarms. I am not fond of the cavalry, the models really need redoing.
Special: I love the Tomb Guard and Ushabti. The carrion are...ok, I would use them if they are good in game. The Tomb Scorpion I absolutely hate and is the one model I really want to avoid using if possible.
Rare: The Skull catapult is a must (preferably two). The giant is mediocre, but I think I could improve the model with some scalpel work.

So, the image I have is of masses of Skeletal archers (which are probably crap :p) and catapults hurling death at the enemy. Ushbati and chariots hitting the enemy lines. A lord of some sort standing immovable amongst his (or her) tomb guard.

Well, there it is. Thanks for reading if you got this far. I hope to hear your ideas soon.

havoc626
08-09-2009, 06:27
Well, I find that horsemen really aren't that needed for TK (the chariots are awsome though) so there really isn't much to worry about there.

Carrion are great in game as they are probably the best warmachine hunter in the game (40" charge if you get the incantation off on them). Swarms and Tomb Scorpions are also great at this with their 'It came from below' rule, but if you use a swarm, only put one in the squad, as that's more than enough to hold up crews in combat for a turn or two at least. Tomb Scorpions are great units and can do a hell of a lot of damage if you use them right, but if you don't like the models, then they aren't that important so long as you take Carrion for against warmachines/mages.

Bone Giant really isn't that good. If it had high WS, then it would be a great CC unit, but because of this, there really isn't much use in taking one over either a) a SSC or b) a Casket. I find that I'd take 2 SSC, then CoS, then, and only if I don't want to take more SSc, I'd take a Bone Giant, and in 4,000pts, I don't think it's really going to be that good anyway. I haven't used it, but if anyone wants to fill in a good way of using it, feel free to do so.

SMann233
08-09-2009, 06:47
Bone Giant really isn't that good. If it had high WS, then it would be a great CC unit, but because of this, there really isn't much use in taking one over either a) a SSC or b) a Casket. I find that I'd take 2 SSC, then CoS, then, and only if I don't want to take more SSc, I'd take a Bone Giant, and in 4,000pts, I don't think it's really going to be that good anyway. I haven't used it, but if anyone wants to fill in a good way of using it, feel free to do so.

2v2, Ally with Vampire Counts, Houserule that gear affects other armies, and then have a Vampire Lord use Helm of Commandment to give it WS7?

Skywave
08-09-2009, 07:28
For characters you could start with a king and 3 liche priests. That will give you a decent magic phase, and a great fighting character. A king with the Crown of Kings also help to boost his magic capability and I find it very usefull.

For your core, chariots will be here with a king (otherwise special choices), and it's one great unit to have around. Skeletons are good too (especially with bow) but the models are hideous. Horsemen have quite decents models imo, and the light one have their use too. Swarms are great also, bucketload of poison attacks :D

If you don't like the scorpion models, you better find some alternative since it's such a great unit! Never leave home without 1 or 2 or 3 :p Ushabti have great models, but can be a let down in-game. They're quite vulnerable to enemy magic/fire, and are quite pricy, but are our hardest hitting unit. Tomb guards are a bit low on save (like the whole army), but are a good unit still, with great magic banners to make them a bit better. I never used carrion personally, so I could say you can live without them I guess!

Catapult are the way to go for your rare. One or two can be deadly. The casket should also be considered as it's a great "mount" for a liche. At 2000pts you should go for either 2 catapult or 1 catapult + casket.

leighr3029
08-09-2009, 08:19
@SMann233 - house rules are not a good reason to play a model. Likewise i donīt like the cavalry. no good

Off the top of my head I run the following

tomb king with cloak of the dunes and fitted out various ways. he sits back, incantates the catapults until he is needed in combat when he flys to where he is needed.
3 liche priests (on steeds)
2*20-25 skellies with bows
1*20 tomb guard with undying legion
2*3 chariots
1 swarm base
2 scorpions
4 carrions
2 catapults

from what you said you donīt like the scorpions so i suppose you could replace them with carrions and Ushabti. I think they full fill a role nothing else does but you can survive without them. If you donīt like the models you can always make/convert your own

with my above list I sit back and shoot with everything (potentially 4 catapult and 80/90 arrow shots) with the scorpions, carrions and swarms taking out war machines and slowing down the opposition. when ready the archers rank up and take chargers (with the tomb guard) while the chariots setup for a flank.

Infurion
08-09-2009, 08:49
I'll jump on the bandwagon here and agree with the others. If you don't like the scorpions, convert something or make your own, any insect or construct will do. :) The Tomb Scorpions are just too good to be left at home. Either burrowed or even just to slingshot them out on your enemy's precious character/general in his bunker unit. 4 s5 attacks with poison/killing blow scares the crap out of him. Just to experience the look on his face is good enough reason to try that imo. :D

Other than that, the above posters have said the most. I am a big fan of Carrion, so i always take a unit of 3-4 to move behind enemy lines in Turn 1, for warmachines, wizards, or just plain old march blocking.

Enigmatik1
08-09-2009, 13:03
Welcome to the fold, Bauhaus! :)

I empathize 100% about the current Tomb Scorpion model. I think it's atrocious. I recommend using a Reaper Miniatures scorpion instead. It's cheaper, infinitely easier to assemble and looks 1,000% better. Get two! Scorpion crisis averted! As everyone else has said, they're way too good to leave at home.

Given your criteria, I think your character dilemma becomes whether to field a King or a Prince with the Tomb Guard. Tomb Kings really need max characters to function in today's environment.

If you choose the King, Chariots become core, which is extremely valuable and a properly equipped Tomb King is no joke in combat. This pretty much means that, for a magic heavy list, your other three characters are automatically Liche Priests. Giving you 5 Incantations (on 8 dice) to throw around during the magic phase, discounting bound items.

If you choose the Prince, Chariots are special, which limits your other special choices at 2K but you can take the Liche High Priest which is a substantial upgrade to your magic phase. By taking the "standard" LHP/TP/LPx2. You still have 5 Incantations per phase (but now on 11 dice), once again discounting bound items. The one thing about Chariots, I find that Chariots without characters in them are pretty lackluster. I only ever field one unit, and there's always a King or Prince in the unit to give it the hitting power it otherwise seems to lack.

I suggest skeleton archers in two configurations. First, lines of 20 that can be reformed into 5x4 blocks for some SCR if needed or lines of 10 for pure shooting. You could conceivably do both in a list if you want.

All of our special choices are good and have their uses. Take whatever you like and roll with it. Tomb Guard are solid and somewhat underrated, I think. Scorpions are devastating and Carrion are indispensable against war machines and the like. The Ushabti are the best looking models in the range, but are prone to being shot and/or magicked off the table. Protect them like you would your newborn baby and they'll do you right.

I prefer Casket/Catapult to Catapult x2. Yes, it's more expensive points wise. But unless you're facing off against Elves or Dwarves, that's three less DDs and a few scrolls your other characters won't have to deal with in your magic phase. We win/lose games in the Movement and Magic phases. I run a Casket in my TK/TP/LPx2 and LHP/TPx2/LP lists. It never goes off. But my other characters are pretty much free to Incant away so it's worth every point. Besides, one SSC is devastating enough if you're good at guessing ranges and adjusting for scatter. I think two would be overkill! ;) But your mileage may vary.

Good luck!

Bauhaus86
08-09-2009, 15:02
Thanks Enigmatic1. The reaper model certainly is the solution! I was looking at a TK/TP/LPx2 combo. Then I could have a couple of nice chariot units to hit the enemy with. The only problem is that once I have added a casket, skull catapult, scorpionx2 and some archers, there is not really anything left. This would seem to make the army easy to cripple, if the chariots are taken down, the army would be pretty much neutered.

LHP/TP/LPx2 sounds like it would do well in the magic phase which is clearly important for Tomb Kings. My question are; what units would you put the priests in? and, what units would provide good support to a TP in a unit of chariots? The more I look at this army, the more it's complexity intrigues me. I hope to get a reasonable idea of what I need for my army so I can start buying some models!

Enigmatik1
08-09-2009, 15:52
Well, I wouldn't personally run both of my hitty characters in opposing chariot units. I'd run one in a Chariot unit and the other in the Tomb Guard. A character-led Tomb Guard unit is surprisingly durable despite not having stellar stats for a special choice and is rather hard to avoid when you give it the Icon of Rakaph. I just try to have this unit keep pace with my Chariot unit (or Ushabti) to force my opponent to pick their poison. This doesn't work so well for me against Horde armies as no matter what I do, I'm outnumbered and surrounded but even then, the Tomb Guard is always rock solid for me.

You're right though. Running a Casket does put a damper on points and I don't always run one, but I usually do. I recommend trying out a variety of unit configurations until you find ones that work for you and feel right within the context of how you want the list to operate. I'm slowly gravitating towards a minimalist approach to Core units as TK core units, Chariots aside, are pretty crappy when compared to other armies Core units and generally not worth the points you'd pay for them imho. A Marauder, for instance, is half as expensive as a Skeleton and nearly twice as effective in combat discounting Fear (which is overrated on Skeletons who can't win combats anyway).

If you want two combat characters and two supplemental Priests, you might want to try a HLP/TPx2/LP list. This is my favorite character set up at the moment, with a Prince in the Chariot unit, the other in the Tomb Guard, the HLP with the Cloak of the Dunes isn't in a unit at all (I use the cloak, terrain and other units to keep him out of LoS) and the LP is on the Casket. This pretty much leaves you 2 special choices however. One Scorpion and either another Scorpion if you feel you need it, an Ushabti unit or a Carrion unit depending on your opponent.

I've personally never run a HLP/TP/LPx2 list as it's too (defensive) caster heavy for me. If Liche Priests had more offensive capabilities, I'd probably use it. I find that with two Priests of any kind, plus two combat characters I have little problem incanting my units where I want them.

Skywave
08-09-2009, 17:33
I've run a list with a king and a prince, each in his own chariot unit, and it worked great! The king had the Crown of Kings, and with these 2 units there was two seperate threat for my enemy, and stopping both of them would take away a lot of his defence, and with liches and catapult behind he have though choice to make!

The TK/TP/LP/LP character setup is great as long as you don't face magic heavy army.Against a more basic 5-6 DD, it work great.

As for liches, small archer unit can be used as hiding place, or like I often do, put one with my catapult crew. Also good to have one mounted in a unit of light horsemen, this way he can easily follow and support chariots, and he's a good candidate for the Staff of Ravening too!

lcfr
08-09-2009, 18:10
The TK/TP/LP/LP character setup is great as long as you don't face magic heavy army.Against a more basic 5-6 DD, it work great.

I'd second this so long as the King is equipped w/the Crown of Kings (like Skywave's) to give him some boosted magical potency to make up for one less liche, otherwise stick to a King and 3 liches.

Imo a King should be doing one of three things, depending on how your army is tailored: 1) providing extra magic power via the Crown of Kings plus equipment to let him hit harder, 2) providing as much pain as possible w/the DoE or suitable arrangement of nasty equipment, 3) acting as a tarpitting unit unto himself w/Scorpion Armour, Spear of Antarhak, and whatever else you'd like for 25pts (popular choice seems to be the Collar of Shapesh, but I recommend the Cloak of Dunes). My 2k-2250 TK force is very elite but very small, so my King needs to be acting as a tarpitting unit to make up for the lack of skeletons (there are only ten mundane skeletons) to tarpit the enemy; if you have one or more units that exist purely to tarpit you can have your King dedicated to bringing the hurt instead.

EDIT: I'd recommend checking out the Tomb Kings fansite, which is basically what I did when I decided the fluff and models made TK worth taking up. The forum dwellers aren't too active (hard to blame them, it's been awhile since TK have had any updates/new models/etc.) but there are tons of threads that can give valuable insight into what generally works and what generally doesn't. Also, posting a list in their Army Lists section is bound to illicit some responses.

SMann233
08-09-2009, 18:37
@SMann233 - house rules are not a good reason to play a model. Likewise i donīt like the cavalry. no good

I was being facetious. If it requires a second army and a second player to make a model good, then it's obviously not worth taking over the infinitely better SSC or Casket.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. :)

Maoriboy007
08-09-2009, 20:22
While TK Cavalry is pretty awful, the light cavalry does have its uses for tactically redirecting charges.
As has been stated Tomb Scorpions are the best value unit in the whole army and most versatile.
Bone Giants are awful, nuff said.
While the SSC is fairly reliable (for a catapault), the Casket is a very nice model and a good buffer for your magic phase. Be prepared for it to do absolutely nothing but suck up a couple of dispel scrolls.
Even awful TK Skeleton bowfire can be useful in numbers, a good unit of 20 on a hill can rain solid pain on infantry and light cavalry. Don't use them as combat infantry though, for an exta 4 points a model take the rock solid Tomb Guard instead.
The few times I've tried Ushabti they've either been blasted apart, shot up, outmaneuvered or outfought. That strength 6 has potential but in practice needs work.
I'll go against the grain and say take a big unit of chariots! Make it big ! Make it Sexy! Put a King and a Prince in it and enemies will fear you! Let them watch in dismay as you go whither thou wilt and smite them in a time and place of your choosing! Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.........!

*(Laughter slowly fades into the distance as Maoriboy is taken away by men in white coats)

Bauhaus86
09-09-2009, 05:22
This thread has provided a good summary of the good and points of Tomb Kings.

lcfr, do you have an address for that Tomb Kings fansite?

I have checked out Reaper miniatures and they have many great character models to go with the Scorpions. I will be placing an order for some models soon. I can't wait to see the faces of my regular opponenets. Not because my army will be overpowered, it is just the last thing they will expect!

Hopefully I will have everything up and painted in a couple of months. I will report back then on how things went.

As an aside, why does it seem like the people who play less powerful/popular armies are much more friendly? WoC threads seem to be full of people telling each other they are idiots and stating there is only one way to play (knights and ah....knights).

Thanks again everyone, you have all cofirmed my desire to get this army. I look forward to having some fun. And, losing some games for a change :p

Mercutius
09-09-2009, 08:50
I've also startet a Tomb Kings army, and so I'm also very interesting in that Tomb King fans site, so

@lcrf: please show me too where to find that fan site :-).

Thanks! :-)

Infurion
09-09-2009, 09:05
Most active TK site is this imo: http://www.khemri.co.nr/

Infurion
09-09-2009, 09:07
As an aside, why does it seem like the people who play less powerful/popular armies are much more friendly? WoC threads seem to be full of people telling each other they are idiots and stating there is only one way to play (knights and ah....knights).

They play CS in their spare time. :D

Enigmatik1
09-09-2009, 12:23
I have checked out Reaper miniatures and they have many great character models to go with the Scorpions. I will be placing an order for some models soon. I can't wait to see the faces of my regular opponenets. Not because my army will be overpowered, it is just the last thing they will expect!

I got my Reaper Scorpion last week and I was extremely pleased with it's look and ease in assembly compared to the GW monstrosity. You're right about the characters also, especially the priestly looking ones. I'm fond of some of the mummified Warlords as well, but they all have two weapons and since we don't get that option aside from the Crook & Flail of Radiance :mad::mad::mad:, I haven't ordered any.

Related note, Gamezone has some cool looking miniatures for Horsemen and Chariots...but their actual figures look bizarre and distorted to me. I'm considering ordering a pair of their chariots for use with characters because they look great painted.



As an aside, why does it seem like the people who play less powerful/popular armies are much more friendly? WoC threads seem to be full of people telling each other they are idiots and stating there is only one way to play (knights and ah....knights).

Well, we have to stick together. There aren't many of us compared to the myriad of new army powergamers...maybe that's why? :angel: There is no one way to play a TK army. Many people like shooty defensive lists with lots of archers and priests. I prefer more aggressive ones myself, with more combat characters than Priests (or at least in equal numbers). They all work, within reason. Which is good.



Thanks again everyone, you have all cofirmed my desire to get this army. I look forward to having some fun. And, losing some games for a change :p

I bitch about the skeletons and cost of our units habitually, but this really is a fun army to play. There's something of a running joke in my gaming group that if I ever manage to defeat a unit in combat with any unit of Skeleton Horsemen (which I have no desire to field and haven't do date), I auto-win. You have to take whatever disparities you see/experience with a grain of salt and not get too bent when you lose. Other than that, you've picked one of, if not the best, army in the game from a fun perspective. I personally find it ironic that the most fun armies are the really weak ones (TK, O/G, BoC, OK).

Good luck!

lcfr
09-09-2009, 17:02
Infurion has it right, that's the TK site I was referring to.

And yes, like Enigmatik says it seems there are several ways to play TK so you just need to decide on what kind of style you like to play (or own enough TK models to pull off different lists). Try writing up a few 2k lists and post them for c&c, this way you'll get an idea of what models you need to be hunting for.