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Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 15:33
We’ve all heard the complaints about Abaddon, how he is a failure because of 13 failed crusades.

I will point out that’s it’s not his fault, here’s why.

People seem to be under the misconception that a single black Crusade, properly managed under some chaos super-warlord, can destroy the entire Imperium in a single blow, and that Abaddon is incompetent for doing so.

This is simply untrue. Let’s look at the facts here.

1.Cadia is the second most heavily fortified plant in the Imperium along with one of the most heavily fortified sectors of the Imperium. It is populated by some of the most badass guardsmen in the Imperium.

In addition to that the battlefleet blocking the Eye of Terror is guarded by over twenty marine chapters and the most veteran battlefleet the Imperium can muster.

These are just the normal defenses. When the Black Crusade hits, the Imperium will be sending as much as they possibly can to hold it. That means dozens of more marine chapters along with millions of Guardsmen and many more warships.

And this is the only way to launch a major strike against the Imperium, this is practically the only way Abaddon can attack.

2. Chaos’s own nature prevents it from uniting, Even Abaddon cannot hold on to the loyalties of the Chaos forces for very long. Eventually his force is going to peeter out, the question is simply time.

This is what happens. Abaddon invades, and hits the heavily fortified defenses of Cadia hard, he has early success due to initial superior numbers, but the black Crusade quickly turns into a meatgrinder once Imperial reinforcements start arriving.

Eventually Abaddon’s Black Crusade unravels out of Chaos’a very own nature. The more troops the Imperuim sends, the longer the fight becomes, and the greater chance the chaos forces revert to their old rivalries.

Abaddon cannot take Cadia because of this fact. It is not his fault. Replace him with another commander and the results are the same. Lucius, Typhus, Huron, it does not matter, they could not do better.

Abaddon’s great success came during the 13th Black Crusade, where the Imperium was stretched thin holding off the Tyranids and the Tau in the Eastern Fringe. But even here he cannot hold Cadia against a concentrate Imperial counter attack. And even then, he was unable to completely take Caida and the sector.

Plus, even is Abaddon managed to do this, and take Cadia, he still would have to struggle to hold it against an Imperial counter attack. By some miracle he managed to mount an offensive towards Terra, then he faces much much more.

He will face two entire Segmentums, including the home planet of the space wolves, and more guardsmen and marines. Before he can get to Terra, the most heavily defended plane tin the galaxy.

Terra, the system covered with weapons and the entire planet one giant armored hive city guarded by millions of Guardsmen, the Imperial fists, a massive battlefleet, and the Custodes, along with the Grey Knights in system.

And this is before the rest of the Imperial forces arrive.

You can bet that once word bet’s out that the chaos forces, bloodied and battered form their long war in the Cadian sector, have began heading another bloody, long trek across two entire Segmentums, you can bet that the Imperium will commit literally everything they have to stop them.

That means hundreds of marine chapters, all flocking to defend Terra, countless billions of Guardsmen, and entire sector fleets, and much, much more.

All arrayed against Abaddon’s bloodied fleet, fresh form the meatgrinder at Cadia.

Now do you see the strategic situation? Anyone who believes that a single Black Crusade can completely conquer Cadia, let alone take a Segmentum, let alone actually destroy the Imperium, is an idiot.

Iracundus
08-09-2009, 15:43
Your entire premise is flawed from the beginning since the 13th Black Crusade was a success, not a failure as Imperial players keep trying to spin doctor the results.

The Imperium has already sent reinforcements to the meatgrinder of the Cadian Gate, first during the actual campaign itself, and since then by stripping the Eastern Fringe of garrisons, allowing the Tau to expand further. There is no miraculous Imperial counter attack suddenly restoring the status quo. Cadia itself at last known status at the end of the EoT campaign is more under Chaos control than Imperial control.

The 13th Black Crusade succeeded in establishing a major Chaos foothold outside the Eye, with at least 1 new daemonworld forming and much of Agrippina sector sacked. With Abaddon's last known whereabouts as in the Thesus Sector (as per Apocalypse rulebook), it appears Abaddon's personal forces have already broken out, even if the ongoing battle for the Gate continues. This may imply that other individual Chaos warlords have also broken out to start preying on worlds and sectors more remote from the immediate Gate area.

Meanwhile, the Imperium's situation elsewhere is deteriorating due to its "robbing Peter to pay Paul" tactics of reinforcing the gate. The large detachments from the Segmentum Solar fleets and Segmentum Obscurus fleets stripped from other sectors cannot be stationed indefinitely around the Gate, leaving their home sectors vulnerable. Segmentum Solar fleets have also been mauled due to having to deal with Hive Fleet Leviathan (as detailed in 4th ed. Tyranid Codex). All the nearby major sectors that might have been a source of reinforcements or war material, like Agrippina sector or Scarus sector, have their own problems and have either been sacked by Chaos, or Orks (in the case of Scarus). Reinforcements from further away such as the Eastern Fringe have resulted in increased Tau expansion (as detailed in 4th ed. Space Marines Codex and 4th ed. Tau Empire Codex).

The Cadian Gate situation is not totally collapsed but it is a bleeding ulcer for the Imperium draining valuable resources away from other fronts and there is no indication the situation is likely to change or improve any time soon.

The 13th Black Crusade was a success in that it accomplished its goal of breaking out of the Eye and establishing Chaos footholds in realspace. Abaddon may have the longer term goal of slogging to Terra, but that of course will not be easy. The Crusade by itself won't directly collapse the Imperium but the critical drain it is causing on the Imperium's resources at the same time the Imperium is best by a host of other rising threats may be the final straw. If the Imperium should ever need to reshuffle forces from the Gate to face other threats, the possibility of Chaos forces then making more advances again becomes a possibility.

kylsnik ironhead
08-09-2009, 15:52
2. Chaosís own nature prevents it from uniting, Even Abbadon cannot hold on to the loyalties of the Chaos forces for very long. Eventually his force is going to peeter out, the question is simply time.


Then he fails as a Chaos Lord and is using a title he does not deserve. Seriously Its a poor warlord who can't keep his minions in check.

grissom2006
08-09-2009, 15:54
Cadia was also ended up with the pillons coming under increasing stress and cracking. The pillons are believed to be the only thing hold back the EoT a few more attacks like the 13th and they could collapse entirely and bye bye Cadia into the EoT.

ChaosAstartes
08-09-2009, 15:54
I believe it has been stated (though I am at work at the moment so do not have access to the chaos codexes at the time), that each Black Crusade that Abaddon has lead has been a success in some form or another.

Kurisu313
08-09-2009, 16:09
Weíve all heard the complaints about Abbadon, how he is a failure because of 13 failed crusades.


I find this thread a little odd, because most people know that:

1) Abbaddon did not lead all 13 crusades, so it seems unfair to blame him for those,

2) The 13th, at least, was a victory for chaos.

Yes, every now and then you get a person who doesn't understand that, and you have to explain to them, but why make a thread without someone first mentioning the misconception? The thread will simply fall by the wayside, and we'll explain it again when the next person asks.

w00tm0ng3r
08-09-2009, 16:25
I believe it has been stated (though I am at work at the moment so do not have access to the chaos codexes at the time), that each Black Crusade that Abaddon has lead has been a success in some form or another.

More or less true. Each one has caused massive damage to the Imperium, and some of them had auxiliary goals that were fulfilled (1st one he got Drach'nyen, 12th he got the blackstone fortresses, etc). Also, Abaddon didn't actually lead all 13 crusades.

Objectively though, it took all the united forces of humanity, all 20 primarchs, uber tech so they'd be using real TANKS instead of TRACTORS (rhino), and the emperor himself 200 years to conquer (most of) the current Imperium. Roughly half the forces of humanity with serious sanity issues, under the leadership of a dude not even in the emperor's league, and without any primarchs are not going to blow it down in any short amount of time...

Industrial Propaganda
08-09-2009, 16:42
Also, Abaddon didn't actually lead all 13 crusades.

Of course because there are more than just 13 Black Crusades :


I hate to break into the oh yes it is, oh no it isn't circle we have going on here, but I thought I'd quote an actual source rather than just hand-waving about where I read it:

'Abbadon has led twelve more Black Crusades against the Imperium since his first horrific onslaught.' (pg. 46 of the 4th ed Codex: Chaos Space Marines, in Abbadon's background section).

I think it's pretty clear that there have been 13 Black Crusades led by Abbadon.

From the same codex, on page 24 under 'The Black Crusades':

'However, once or twice in a millennium, a truly great Champion of Chaos arises in the Eye of Terror... How the Champion brings such 'Black Crusades' together depends upon his nature and his patron god... When a mighty warlord of Chaos launches a Black Crusade.
Note that Abbadon's involvement is not a prerequisite for an event called a Black Crusade to occur, but Abbadon has led 13 of them himself. There are, therefore, presumably more than 13 Black Crusades which have taken place.'

x-esiv-4c
08-09-2009, 16:42
I'm not entirely sure what Crully was trying to get at with this thread. Most people know that the object of each black crusade was not to destroy the Imperium.
Chiming in with the rest of the non-deluded warhammer fans, chaos did in fact win the EoT campaign. Get over it.

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 16:50
Your entire premise is flawed from the beginning since the 13th Black Crusade was a success, not a failure as Imperial players keep trying to spin doctor the results.

The Imperium has already sent reinforcements to the meatgrinder of the Cadian Gate, first during the actual campaign itself, and since then by stripping the Eastern Fringe of garrisons, allowing the Tau to expand further. There is no miraculous Imperial counter attack suddenly restoring the status quo. Cadia itself at last known status at the end of the EoT campaign is more under Chaos control than Imperial control.

The 13th Black Crusade succeeded in establishing a major Chaos foothold outside the Eye, with at least 1 new daemonworld forming and much of Agrippina sector sacked. With Abaddon's last known whereabouts as in the Thesus Sector (as per Apocalypse rulebook), it appears Abaddon's personal forces have already broken out, even if the ongoing battle for the Gate continues. This may imply that other individual Chaos warlords have also broken out to start preying on worlds and sectors more remote from the immediate Gate area.

Meanwhile, the Imperium's situation elsewhere is deteriorating due to its "robbing Peter to pay Paul" tactics of reinforcing the gate. The large detachments from the Segmentum Solar fleets and Segmentum Obscurus fleets stripped from other sectors cannot be stationed indefinitely around the Gate, leaving their home sectors vulnerable. Segmentum Solar fleets have also been mauled due to having to deal with Hive Fleet Leviathan (as detailed in 4th ed. Tyranid Codex). All the nearby major sectors that might have been a source of reinforcements or war material, like Agrippina sector or Scarus sector, have their own problems and have either been sacked by Chaos, or Orks (in the case of Scarus). Reinforcements from further away such as the Eastern Fringe have resulted in increased Tau expansion (as detailed in 4th ed. Space Marines Codex and 4th ed. Tau Empire Codex).

The Cadian Gate situation is not totally collapsed but it is a bleeding ulcer for the Imperium draining valuable resources away from other fronts and there is no indication the situation is likely to change or improve any time soon.

The 13th Black Crusade was a success in that it accomplished its goal of breaking out of the Eye and establishing Chaos footholds in realspace. Abaddon may have the longer term goal of slogging to Terra, but that of course will not be easy. The Crusade by itself won't directly collapse the Imperium but the critical drain it is causing on the Imperium's resources at the same time the Imperium is best by a host of other rising threats may be the final straw. If the Imperium should ever need to reshuffle forces from the Gate to face other threats, the possibility of Chaos forces then making more advances again becomes a possibility.

I did state the 13th Black Crusade was a sucess. Did you not read my post?


Abbadon’s great success came during the 13th Black Crusade, where the Imperium was stretched thin holding off the Tyranids and the Tau in the Eastern Fringe. But even here he cannot hold Cadia against a concentrate Imperial counter attack. And even then, he was unable to completely take Caida and the sector.


Then he fails as a Chaos Lord and is using a title he does not deserve. Seriously Its a poor warlord who can't keep his minions in check.

No Chaos lord can do that. That's the whole point. There is no chaos lord that can hold on to the loyalty of thier minions indefinietly. It's Chaos's very nature.

In fact Abbadon is better than most chaos lords because he can hold into it longer?


I'm not entirely sure what Crully was trying to get at with this thread. Most people know that the object of each black crusade was not to destroy the Imperium.


Really? I knoww that but I've met soem people who don't realize that.



Chiming in with the rest of the non-deluded warhammer fans, chaos did in fact win the EoT campaign. Get over it.

I did state that, did you not need my post? I was pointing out what other people said.


Abbadon’s great success came during the 13th Black Crusade, where the Imperium was stretched thin holding off the Tyranids and the Tau in the Eastern Fringe. But even here he cannot hold Cadia against a concentrate Imperial counter attack. And even then, he was unable to completely take Caida and the sector.

And please, as I have told many other people, do not call me Crully. I have said this many many times.

x-esiv-4c
08-09-2009, 16:58
I did read your post.

Please fix it too. No one called "Abbadon" lead any Crusades.

"Now do you see the strategic situation? Anyone who believes that a single Black Crusade can completely conquer Cadia....is an idiot"

Not sure what the point of your post was really. If it was to say that Cadia can't be taken in a single crusade is an idiot, well....ok.....so? Perhaps Abaddon's ability to rally the forces of chaos in a unified front was lacking but does that mean that no one can do it?

will564752
08-09-2009, 16:59
All the Black Crusades have been victories for the Forces of Chaos.

And just to add something to this thread, look at the advantages Horus had during the Heresy compared to what Abaddon now has. (My point being that of course Abaddon hasn't achieved what Horus did during the Heresy - Reaching and besieging Terra)

1) Horus had complete suprise on his side
2) He could strike anywhere he wished (Abaddon is just able to plough time and time again into the Cadian Gate)
3) He had 9 Full Legions at his complete command.
4) He had Mars under his control aswell as tonnes of vital Forge Worlds etc
5) The Warp was in turmoil, blocking loyalist travel and communication

Etc.. The List could easily go on :)

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 17:00
"Now do you see the strategic situation? Anyone who believes that a single Black Crusade can completely conquer Cadia....is an idiot"

Not sure what the point of your post was really. If it was to say that Cadia can't be taken in a single crusade is an idiot, well....ok.....so? Perhaps Abaddon's ability to rally the forces of chaos in a unified front was lacking but does that mean that no one can do it?

Where? It's been stated repeatedly that the nature of Chaos is rivalry. The only person who could unite them is Horus.

The whole point of this thread is an answer to those people who beleive that abbadon is a failure. I thought it was fairly obvious.


I did read your post.

Please fix it too. No one called "Abbadon" lead any Crusades.


So you are concerned so badly with a simple grammar error? Get over it. I'm changing it.

x-esiv-4c
08-09-2009, 17:16
Abaddon.

You say that the thread is to address people who think Abaddon is a failure yet you yoursef state that he cannot take Cadia etc etc.

"Abaddon cannot take Cadia because of this fact. It is not his fault. Replace him with another commander and the results are the same. Lucius, Typhus, Huron, it does not matter, they could not do better."

As someone said, what about Horus? Replace Abaddon with Horus in the 13th crusade. What would the outcome be?

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 17:18
Abaddon.

You say that the thread is to address people who think Abaddon is a failure yet you yoursef state that he cannot take Cadia etc etc.

"Abaddon cannot take Cadia because of this fact. It is not his fault. Replace him with another commander and the results are the same. Lucius, Typhus, Huron, it does not matter, they could not do better."

As someone said, what about Horus? Replace Abaddon with Horus in the 13th crusade. What would the outcome be?

If Horus can hold the allegiance of the Chaos forces indefnietly, then yes. If he cannot, then the attack will fall apart. Simple at that.

We can both certainly believe that no other Chaos commander alive currently can do it.

My whole point is that he cannot take Cadia with the Imperium unoccupied by other threats. Like the Tyranids and Tau.

will564752
08-09-2009, 17:20
Abaddon.

You say that the thread is to address people who think Abaddon is a failure yet you yoursef state that he cannot take Cadia etc etc.


That Doesn't Make him a failure..

But anyway Abaddon has taken Cadia... The 13th Black Crusade took the majority of the planet, although the Imperium currently retains orbital superiority.


As someone said, what about Horus? Replace Abaddon with Horus in the 13th crusade. What would the outcome be?

Even if Horus were still around and did command the 13th Black Crusade, I highly doubt the results would be any different. The Reason he did so well in the Heresy were because of the reasons I listed above (in my previous post).

x-esiv-4c
08-09-2009, 17:30
Good point will564752, well put!

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 18:17
That Doesn't Make him a failure..


I never believed he was.



But anyway Abaddon has taken Cadia... The 13th Black Crusade took the majority of the planet, although the Imperium currently retains orbital superiority.


For now, what about when the Imperium get' s on to the inevitible counterattack?

x-esiv-4c
08-09-2009, 18:23
I don't think that will ever happen. GW seems very reluctant to push fluff past 999.M41. With all the incursions from other races, be it the Tau expansion, the Necron threat or the menacing Ambull-Grox alliance, a massive counterattack to reclaim Cadian seems impossible.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 18:35
Weíve all heard the complaints about Abaddon, how he is a failure because of 13 failed crusades.


Hes also a whiny lill daddys clone

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 18:40
Hes also a whiny lill daddys clone


Did you not read my posts at all?

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 18:44
Did you not read my posts at all?

Yes, I did


Weíve all heard the complaints about Abaddon, how he is a failure because of 13 failed crusades.

I think hes a failure for completely different reasons.

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2009, 18:56
That, and his 12 other Crusades ended rather well for him.

I can not remember the goal of each one, but they were never to actually reach Terra. It is as if each one had its own goal and the Crusade itself was more of a way to insure Abaddon got what he was after while everyone else was distracted.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 19:03
1st Black Crusade: BEFORE the defenses on Cadia were built, does not reach past Cadia.

Result: abaddon forced back in to the Eye by the guard and marines.

2nd Black Crusade: Cadian Defenses built, Larger Attack Fleet by Chaos. Chaos forced back in to the Eye by fortifications that are built DURING the Crusade


4th Black Crusade: Chaos takes over El'Phanor For a time. Guard and Marines attack in mass and kill the majority of the Chaos warriors involved.

7th Black Crusade: A win for Chaos

12th Black Crusade: if your considering this a war against the Eldar, It was a win

Or if you Consider it a war on behalf of the Necrons its a win, other wise again, Chaos lost many of there warriors and was unable to do anything against the Imperials other than destroy a few planets.

So in 6/7ths of the Crusades Abbadon was unable to achieve lasting victory, or a victory other than destroying planets with little strategic importance

Mojaco
08-09-2009, 19:31
He's a ****. I hope one of the primarchs will take over one day, kicking boo-tah. Not Angron though, he just raised a huge party which got crashed in the end. He has no long-term planning ability.

Johnnyfrej
08-09-2009, 19:36
I believe Abbadon goes to sleep each night under a plaque that says "Life is a journey, not a destination."

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 19:39
I believe Abbadon goes to sleep each night under a plaque that says "Life is a journey, not a destination."

"And if, on a regular basis I get my legions destroyed just to take out some non military targets, OR make it easier for the Necron Gods, who oppose my gods, to manifest, then that's ok"

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2009, 19:53
1st Black Crusade: BEFORE the defenses on Cadia were built, does not reach past Cadia.

Result: abaddon forced back in to the Eye by the guard and marines.

2nd Black Crusade: Cadian Defenses built, Larger Attack Fleet by Chaos. Chaos forced back in to the Eye by fortifications that are built DURING the Crusade


4th Black Crusade: Chaos takes over El'Phanor For a time. Guard and Marines attack in mass and kill the majority of the Chaos warriors involved.

7th Black Crusade: A win for Chaos

12th Black Crusade: if your considering this a war against the Eldar, It was a win

Or if you Consider it a war on behalf of the Necrons its a win, other wise again, Chaos lost many of there warriors and was unable to do anything against the Imperials other than destroy a few planets.

So in 6/7ths of the Crusades Abbadon was unable to achieve lasting victory, or a victory other than destroying planets with little strategic importance

The war is the distraction. With several of them, Abaddon had some other goal and he accomplished it. If victory is not based on the accomplishment of our goals, then what should we base it one?

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 19:55
The war is the distraction. With several of them, Abaddon had some other goal and he accomplished it. If victory is not based on the accomplishment of our goals, then what should we base it one?

Oh ok...
So what were the goals?
40k Lexicon and the 3rd Edition Chaos codex state in objective text that these were the goals.

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2009, 19:58
I thought the Talismans of Vaul, some hand-thing or eye-thing and something else. I honestly don't remember some of these details.

There was something he needed to get to control the Blackstones. He got it.

There were the Blackstones. He got them.

The hand thing and the eye thing might be the same thing and I am just confusing the details on them. And I can not remember if he got Drach'Nyen during a Black Crusade or not.

And, if the objective of the 13th was the utter frelling of the Cadian Gate, well, hello success.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 20:04
I thought the Talismans of Vaul, some hand-thing or eye-thing and something else. I honestly don't remember some of these details.

There was something he needed to get to control the Blackstones. He got it.

There were the Blackstones. He got them.

The hand thing and the eye thing might be the same thing and I am just confusing the details on them. And I can not remember if he got Drach'Nyen during a Black Crusade or not.

And, if the objective of the 13th was the utter frelling of the Cadian Gate, well, hello success.

Oh cool, good to know.
Its just i HATE it when the source books lie to me.

When did the The Talisman of Vaul go from being the Eldar name for the Blackstone fortresses, to being a hand thing and an eye thing?

MrInsomniac
08-09-2009, 20:06
Drach'Nyen was indeed obtained during his first Black Crusade. All in all, his crusades have been successful. Abaddon doesn't care about loss of life, he cares about HIS goals. Not all of them have been to breach the Cadian Gate, though his 13th semms to have done just that.

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2009, 20:08
Oh cool, good to know.
Its just i HATE it when the source books lie to me.

When did the The Talisman of Vaul go from being the Eldar name for the Blackstone fortresses, to being a hand thing and an eye thing?

They weren't a hand thing and an eye thing. Note that I listed them separately and not as the same thing. He needed something to control them. He got that thing. That was the hand (or maybe eye) thing. Then he used it. He used it to control the Blackstones.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 20:11
They weren't a hand thing and an eye thing. Note that I listed them separately and not as the same thing. He needed something to control them. He got that thing. That was the hand (or maybe eye) thing. Then he used it. He used it to control the Blackstones.

Um, are you thinking of the Hand and Eye of Vecna?

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 20:12
1st Black Crusade: BEFORE the defenses on Cadia were built, does not reach past Cadia.


Yes he did, he went past the gate and was eventually pushed back by Dorn a primarch, at the cos to fhis life.



4th Black Crusade: Chaos takes over El'Phanor For a time. Guard and Marines attack in mass and kill the majority of the Chaos warriors involved.


Source please?



2nd Black Crusade: Cadian Defenses built, Larger Attack Fleet by Chaos. Chaos forced back in to the Eye by fortifications that are built DURING the Crusade


Source please?


I believe Abbadon goes to sleep each night under a plaque that says "Life is a journey, not a destination."


Let me explain this concept that is too hard for you people to understand.

Change Abaddon with somebody else and NOTHING changes, except mauybe for the worse. It's not Abbadon, it's his strategic situation. The Imperium is big, once it starts pouring in troops, it's not going to be easy to take Cadia. You even have over twenty marien chapter stationed there permenantly.

The Imperium WILL fight tooth and nail to hold it.

MrInsomniac
08-09-2009, 20:14
Um, are you thinking of the Hand and Eye of Vecna?

Isn't that D & D? :p

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2009, 20:15
Um, are you thinking of the Hand and Eye of Vecna?

Very well may have been. That would explain why I am remembering a hand and an eye. Am I attributing their abilities to the wrong thing?

(And I am looking for my BFG rulebook atm, but I am not sure where exactly it is and I will be leaving for work soon.)

EDIT
Isn't that D & D? :p

If that is the case, then no, that is not what I am thinking of at all. There was some item that Abaddon needed to control the Talismans of Vaul. He found this item, then showed up at the Blackstones, activated them and took them.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 20:16
Yes he did, he went past the gate and was eventually pushed back by Dorn a primarch, at the cos to fhis life.



Go back and actually check the maps wher El'Phanor, it's actually pretty far in the sementum solar form what I remember.

Excuse me, he was unable to take Cadia BEFORE the defenses



This is what happens. Abaddon invades, and hits the heavily fortified defenses of Cadia hard, he has early success due to initial superior numbers, but the black Crusade quickly turns into a meatgrinder once Imperial reinforcements start arriving.

Lord_Crull
08-09-2009, 20:18
Excuse me, he was unable to take Cadia BEFORE the defenses

Yes he did, the Imperium only pushed him back after massive losses including a PRIMARCH. Abbadon led his forcess into the Segmentum Obscuras and deavastated that.


The Imperium at this time had yet to build the vast defences on Cadia and the naval port of Belis Corona, and the invasion stormed across thousands of worlds in a mighty push to force the Emperor to bow before the forces of Chaos. The invasion itself was more of a blunt sword action than a wickedly sharp blade, which most of the other Black Crusades would be. It seemed that little could stop the oncoming of Chaos as world after world was burnt.

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 20:34
[QUOTE=Lothlanathorian;3933451]Very well may have been. That would explain why I am remembering a hand and an eye. Am I attributing their abilities to the wrong thing?

(And I am looking for my BFG rulebook atm, but I am not sure where exactly it is and I will be leaving for work soon.)

Ya those are DandD, dont worry we all get our wires crossed some times

Crull, You questions my sorces, and well I have to admit thats a good thing. Ive had to get to work since I typed that up, soon as i get back ill give you page numbers

khirsath
08-09-2009, 21:50
I believe Abbadon was after the Eye of Night and the Hand of Darkness, or some similar sounding name. These were the artifacts that he needed to activate and control the Blackstone Fortresses that he intended to capture in the later crusade, which were successful. If I recall, the capturing of the Hand of Darkness had the bonus of eradicating the ratling home world as well. (This is from BFG fluff, I'd give a quote but my texts are a few thousand km away at the moment)

Condottiere
08-09-2009, 21:54
Why would he want to eradicate the Ratling homeworld?Unless, it was prophesized that his nemesis would arise from an unassuming member of that folk.

Talos
08-09-2009, 21:59
1) Horus had complete suprise on his side
2) He could strike anywhere he wished (Abaddon is just able to plough time and time again into the Cadian Gate)
3) He had 9 Full Legions at his complete command.
4) He had Mars under his control aswell as tonnes of vital Forge Worlds etc
5) The Warp was in turmoil, blocking loyalist travel and communication

Etc.. The List could easily go on :)
I totally agree. One thing I would add to the list that I Feel is quite a large bit. Is that when Horus commanded the Traitor legions they had not fallen totally into Chaos and most where not insane, they where still unified behind there Primarchs, only a few of them such as Typhon had made pacts for power behind there Primarchs back.
I dont believe Abbadon is a failure, each Crusade has pushed the Imperium to breaking point, each one has been a success. I hate people that think he set out on his first crusade to take Terra and destroy the Imperium in one swoop. His first crusade was problemly just to probe the imperium's defensives and see how there tactics had changed since he was first captain.

Will he succeed , I dont think so, the Legions have broken down to much, maybe if he could get the Primarchs to help so they are all unifed then yea but I dont see that happening, I think the Primarchs are to involved in the great game and to them the imperium is nothing any more.

Iracundus
08-09-2009, 22:04
I believe Abbadon was after the Eye of Night and the Hand of Darkness, or some similar sounding name. These were the artifacts that he needed to activate and control the Blackstone Fortresses that he intended to capture in the later crusade, which were successful. If I recall, the capturing of the Hand of Darkness had the bonus of eradicating the ratling home world as well. (This is from BFG fluff, I'd give a quote but my texts are a few thousand km away at the moment)

It's never said he eradicated all of Ornsworld, just that he inflicted millions of casualties. Also Ornsworld is a Ratling world, but it's not a "homeworld". Ratlings are abhumans, and so their ultimate homeworld would also be Terra.

BrotherMoses
08-09-2009, 23:39
Forgive one of the newer (or less informed) converts to the game, but how do they decide the outcomes of these campaigns? Was any sort of battle played out on table or was it just a developers meeting?

BrotherMoses
08-09-2009, 23:50
Um, are you thinking of the Hand and Eye of Vecna?

LOL omg, thats what this setting needs. VECNA!!!

Lisiecki
08-09-2009, 23:53
Forgive one of the newer (or less informed) converts to the game, but how do they decide the outcomes of these campaigns? Was any sort of battle played out on table or was it just a developers meeting?

the 13th was yes, the rest are just background stories

BrotherMoses
08-09-2009, 23:59
Abaddon is kind of a terrific warlord. He knows what Chaos is about. He's gotta keep himself in mind and be constantly suspicious of everything just to stay around. He's even smart enough to know better than to become a daemon prince, which is suppossed to be one of the greatest honor's his gods can bestow. Even though it ensures he is never anything more than a mindless slave to his dark master's will, incapable of so much as free thought.
CHAOS: Abaddon, you have proven yourself and we would like to reward you.
Abaddon: errr.... really? What do you have in mind.
CHAOS: We would like to bring you into our ranks as an honored, all powerful, and eternal daemon prince!
Abaddon: Ooooohhhh you know what, I'm going to have to pass on that, yeah. I really don't wanna leave the guys behind. Oh, and I've got to see a doctor some time next week about having my teeth filed into points, its just not a good time for me.
CHAOS: What? Are you sure? Being a daemon has excellent health and dental coverage.
Abaddon: Sounds nice, but I'm cool with my current position. If you've got another S or I buff I'll take that, but other than that I'm cool.
CHAOS: Ok, if you're sure I guess we'll try again later...
Abaddon: *sigh of relief*

BrotherMoses
09-09-2009, 00:00
the 13th was yes, the rest are just background stories

Ok, thats what I thought I heard. From the rumours I heard GW seriously uhhhh... *bumped the table* for the end of the campaign to be this way if I'm not hearing wrong.

Lothlanathorian
09-09-2009, 00:30
However, during the Gothic War, Abaddon managed to use a pair of ancient devices he had recovered to rouse the Fortresses and bring them under his control.


Knew I wasn't thinking of something from D&D:p

Hand of Darkness (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hand_of_Darkness)

Eye of Night (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eye_of_Night)


And from http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blackstone_Fortress


"However, during the Gothic War Abaddon was influenced by the C'tan 'The Deceiver' to find a pair of ancient devices, (known as the 'Hand of Darkness' and the 'Eye of Night', probably Eldar devices with some kind of command code or password) which re-activated the massive ships, bringing them under his control."]However, during the Gothic War Abaddon was influenced by the C'tan 'The Deceiver' to find a pair of ancient devices, (known as the 'Hand of Darkness' and the 'Eye of Night', probably Eldar devices with some kind of command code or password) which re-activated the massive ships, bringing them under his control.

kylsnik ironhead
09-09-2009, 03:03
No Chaos lord can do that. That's the whole point. There is no chaos lord that can hold on to the loyalty of their minions indefinitely. It's Chaos's very nature.


Note how I said in Check I never said they had to be loyal, just more afraid of you then they are of anyone else, and if Someone manages to off the top-man, oh well Chaos is all about survival of the fittest.

and yes Some Chaos Lords can hold compelte control over their minions

Thousand Sons Lords can , as can the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers and if i recall correctly Iron warriors have a pretty firm grip on their minions

Askil the Undecided
09-09-2009, 03:59
The real trick is giving Kharn (Khorne Jnr,) Typhus (Nurglicous,) Ahriman (Mr. Tzeentcheriffic,) Fabius Bile (Capt. Fabulous) & Lucius the eternal (Slaanesh's personal bitch) somebody they can all follow for any length of time despite each hating everything that the others might look for in a leader apart form Abaddon's raw power and general favour from the gods.

No wonder it's proven a bit of a bother in the past, it sounds a bit tricky doesn't it?

Iracundus
09-09-2009, 05:08
Ok, thats what I thought I heard. From the rumours I heard GW seriously uhhhh... *bumped the table* for the end of the campaign to be this way if I'm not hearing wrong.

You are hearing wrong. Some Forces of Order players have been in denial over losing now for 6 years and some are still trying to spin doctor the loss into a "draw" or worse into an Imperial victory, or failing that to cry "cheat!" since they cannot seem to understand or accept the possibility they could ever lose.

Logarithm Udgaur
09-09-2009, 05:52
Knew I wasn't thinking of something from D&D:p

You are thinking of something from D&D. 40K just tactically acquired it.
Interestingly enough, Asdrubael Vect wields the Hand of Vect. Real subtle, those GW developers.

TheOverlord
09-09-2009, 06:33
Note how I said in Check I never said they had to be loyal, just more afraid of you then they are of anyone else, and if Someone manages to off the top-man, oh well Chaos is all about survival of the fittest.

and yes Some Chaos Lords can hold compelte control over their minions

Thousand Sons Lords can , as can the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers and if i recall correctly Iron warriors have a pretty firm grip on their minions

And Abbadon has complete control over the Black Legion. Neither the Dark Apostles or the Thousand Sons can control minions outside of their own legion as firmly or as long as Abbadon can. Quite frankly it'll take a Primarch of the daemon variety to control that many Legions under his banner for so long.

And Iron Warriors? Really? You mean the guys who, because one of them decided not to spit-shine the shoes of one of his more senior commanders ended up killing 3 grand companies for the sake of leftover gene-seed, to which the majority of those gene-seed was sent over to the Despoiler in the first place? Those guys?

They could barely hold their breaths much less their own legion together.

randian
09-09-2009, 07:16
If Horus can hold the allegiance of the Chaos forces indefinitely, then yes. If he cannot, then the attack will fall apart. Simple at that.
Allegiance isn't good enough, you need command and control. If you look at the Siege of Terra, you will note that the Emperor's Children spent their time savaging civilians and generally having Chaotic fun. That's an incredible waste of resources. Given how so very close Horus was to breaking the walls of the inner palace, it is clear to me that if the might of the Emperor's Children had been applied to that task Horus' victory would have been assured.

Lanparth
09-09-2009, 07:48
You know what? Abbadon is a failure. As a Word Bearers player I can firmly say my Word Bearers spit on Abbadon, and here is why.

Abbadon has a phrase.

"Horus was a fool. Horus had the whole of the Imperium in the palm of his hand and let it slip away."

This guy basically claims he is better than Horus. Read into it, he does.

Crull, there are Chaos Lords who can keep it together, Lorgar is one proof, as was a little man named Horus. Abbadon is not Horus. Abbadon is Abbadon the spoiled.

He should be killed for incompetence. He rates himself along, and better than Horus, by no means is this man Horus.

Brother Alric
09-09-2009, 08:03
Crull, there are Chaos Lords who can keep it together, Lorgar is one proof, as was a little man named Horus. Abbadon is not Horus. Abbadon is Abbadon the spoiled.

Lorgar is only controlling his own legion. As far as I know he never lead any joined forces.

Horus is very different. Unlike all the other Chaos Lords, he never had to fight for his position. The Chaos Gods choose him and gave him controll over the forces of Chaos. Neither did he have to struggle to gain command over the other legions, seeing as how he was already the Warmaster.

Abaddon however, he's been having a though time. Let's not forget that the other Chaos Legions felt some pretty strong hatred against the Black Legion after the Horus Heresy. Abaddon must have had a pretty though time rebuilding some of that trust again.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2009, 10:28
Thousand Sons Lords can , as can the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers and if i recall correctly Iron warriors have a pretty firm grip on their minions

No, you are confusing feuding Chaos lords with grunt Chaos marines. Abaddon brings a loose alliance of hard to control Chaos lords together. That is far, far different from mere grunt chaos marines.

Regardless, Lorgar is not going to unite all the various feuding Chaos legions. Replace Abbadon with Lorgar, and you will get the exact same results.



"Horus was a fool. Horus had the whole of the Imperium in the palm of his hand and let it slip away."


He's right actually, Horus risked it all for the gamble of killing the Emperor personally. Had he done things differently, he might have won.



Crull, there are Chaos Lords who can keep it together, Lorgar is one proof, as was a little man named Horus. Abbadon is not Horus. Abbadon is Abbadon the spoiled.


Nope, Lorgar only ever led his legion of Undivided yes-men who distain one-god worship cults and focus on it all. He would never be able to unite the World Eaters and the Emperor's Children, or any of the various other opposing Chaos warbands just like Abbadon does.

Lanparth
09-09-2009, 11:14
Horus did a hell of a lot better than the supposedly superior Abbadon did, regardless of his gamble.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-09-2009, 12:09
Thousand Sons Lords can , as can the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers and if i recall correctly Iron warriors have a pretty firm grip on their minions

Thousand Sons are Rubrics, which are automatons slaved to the wills of their Sorcerers. There's no struggle there. Moot.

Word Bearers are complete religious fanatics, and their unity is admirable, but unless you believe that this kind of devotion can be forced upon all the Legions, this point is also moot.

These two Legions are able to keep forces of their own Legion together by virtue of their organization and form of brainwashing. The other Legions do not and will never have such advantages in control, and even if they did within their own Legions rivalries between Legions would grind any arbitrary choosing of a leader to a halt. It's only by his own charisma, determination, heritage as the scion of Horus, ruthlessness, and yes, his history of victories and glory that keep Abaddon on top. No other Lord can compare.


Horus did a hell of a lot better than the supposedly superior Abbadon did, regardless of his gamble.

And Horus had a massive number of advantages Abaddon will never have.

will564752
09-09-2009, 13:14
Horus did a hell of a lot better than the supposedly superior Abbadon did, regardless of his gamble.

For all the reasons I gave on Page 1 as to why the Heresy achieved more than the Black Crusades. Its not Abaddon's fault, its down to the massive advantages that Horus had, that Abaddon doesn't have.




and yes Some Chaos Lords can hold compelte control over their minions

Thousand Sons Lords can,

Because there commanding Automatons, no challenege there really...


as can the Dark Apostles of the Word Bearers

Religious Fanatics are not hard to control, especially if the one commanding them (Lorgar) is percieved as an Arch-Prophet/Demi-God.

EDIT: Imperialis Dominatus ninjaed me!!


You know what? Abbadon is a failure. As a Word Bearers player I can firmly say my Word Bearers spit on Abbadon, and here is why.

Abbadon has a phrase.

Although even the Word Bearers respect and fear Abaddon. They don't regard him as they did Horus, but they still respect his command and overlordship. (See Dark Disciple)



"Horus was weak, Horus was a fool, He had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip away."

This guy basically claims he is better than Horus. Read into it, he does.

(Tweaked the quote for you! :))

Ok right, If the account is to be believed that stated that Horus felt some pang of regret in his actions during the heresy and this is the reason he lowered his shields, then from a Chaos Lords perspective this quote is entirely accurate. He is weak for feeling regret and not going completley down the Chaotic path, and he is a fool for lowering his shields..

I still fail to comprehend why people slag off Abaddon so much, and claim he is a failure or that hes not as big as Horus.

Just look at the obsticles he faced, and look at what he has achieved. Each Black Crusade he has led has achieved some form of goal, and just because each one hasn't reached Terra and killed the Corpse-God people simply right it off as a failure... Is that a realistic objective? No, at least not yet.

I won't post again what advantages Horus had compared to Abaddon, but even if Horus did survive and now commands in stead of Abaddon the situation would be no different, Horus would do no better than Abaddon has.

Can you not see how difficult it is for Abaddon to retain overlordship of even the Black Legion? Let alone the other 8 legions which has strong influence in. Even the Daemon Primarchs respect him (or don't care that their troops are fighting under his command, either/or). Not only that but he has to retain favour from the Fickle Chaos Gods, who could at any moment turn him into a spawn, this in itself is proof that he isn't a failure as the Chaos Gods see fit to keep rewarding him.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2009, 14:26
Horus did a hell of a lot better than the supposedly superior Abbadon did, regardless of his gamble.


First of all, Horus was a primarch. Second of all, he had alot of advantages that Abaddon will never have acess to.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 14:27
It's like comparing Melkor to Sauron.

Urath
09-09-2009, 15:40
It's like comparing Melkor to Sauron.

Thats very true, it's not even worth trying.

w00tm0ng3r
09-09-2009, 16:51
It's like comparing Melkor to Sauron.

Excellent analogy, but damn I feel like such a nerd for knowing who Melkor is...

Urath
09-09-2009, 17:24
You've either read, or found out through various *means*, the Silmarillion. It's not nerdy or geeky to have read a great piece of literary work and remember it.

It's like, some people say to me "How do you remember all those pokemon?" and I think to myself, well we ALL (all being my friends in question) played the games/watched the T.V series for a few years or so and you really *can't* remember?

rant/off

Logarithm Udgaur
09-09-2009, 17:40
It's like, some people say to me "How do you remember all those pokemon?" and I think to myself, well we ALL (all being my friends in question) played the games/watched the T.V series for a few years or so and you really *can't* remember?

They probably repressed the memory. I did not even watch the show (my little brother and sisters did) and I could probably sing most of the first season Pokerap. Some things just stick in peoples heads better than others.

Lanparth
09-09-2009, 18:21
First of all, Horus was a primarch. Second of all, he had alot of advantages that Abaddon will never have acess to.

I am only comparing the two because Abbadon likes to compare himself to Horus. Its fair because Abbadon MAKES it fair. He wants to be compared to Horus? Fine. I keep him placed under the glass. He's a Primarch wannabe who couldn't win a campaign to save his live.

Urath
09-09-2009, 18:26
How does he compare himself to Horus? He has the title of Warmaster and the Talon of Horus, as a symbol of authority; he's not dressing like Horus so he gets all the girls.

massey
09-09-2009, 18:37
Abaddon is a success or a failure depending on how you view it. But basically, the problem is that he suffers the same deficit that all serial villains do. He can't be allowed to win.

Remember the GI Joe cartoon? Remember how Cobra was supposed to be this big badass organization? The world trembled at the might of Cobra, and only GI Joe could stop them. Well, that held true for a little while, but as time went by, and the seasons went on, you'd get stupid things taking place, like two little kids and a dog chasing Cobra Commander around the yard, while the Joes stand around with their hands on their hips and they laugh. Or you'd get some mom with a frying pan who would hit Destro over the head, and he'd be out cold. There was usually some moral lesson about standing up for yourself or something at the end of the episode. I think in one episode some accountant came in and closed down a Cobra base because they hadn't paid rent, or something like that. The end result was that Cobra, "an evil terrorist organization determined to rule the world" ended up being a total joke. Yeah, I'm totally terrified of a group of villains who get defeated by a scrappy kid and Shipwreck's bird.

But if you watch the cartoon, they're still supposed to be dangerous. We simply know from experience that they're kind of incompetent. Abaddon is the same way. He's supposed to be dangerous, powerful, and a force to be reckoned with. Instead, we see 13 Black Crusades and the Imperium is still doing okay. I mean, seriously, he times his last attack at the same time that the Imperium is fighting a war against the Tau, an ongoing conflict against the greatest Ork warlord in a thousand years, and fending off an attack by the largest Tyranid Hive Fleet ever seen, and all Abaddon can manage to accomplish is gaining a foothold on one planet? He has all the combined armies of Chaos at his command and that's all he can do? He doesn't just drive by Cadia and ignore it? "See that, men? That's Cadia. There are billions of Imperial soldiers down there waiting for us. Wave goodbye as we pass by it. We're going to go attack somewhere else."

Abaddon is pretty much forced to suffer through plot-induced-stupidity. He's the bad guy, so he can't win. He'll be repulsed time and again, at great cost, and then he'll vow his revenge. That's the way it works. Questioning whether he's a success or failure is really an exercise in futility. He's successful enough to maintain his rep, and he's the chosen of the Chaos gods (though there's really not a whole lot for them to choose from -- the most successful alternative is a dude with an axe who kills his own men when they don't charge heavy weapons platforms -- that's like firing Cobra Commander and putting Tomax and Xamot in charge).

Rat Catcher
09-09-2009, 18:43
Abaddon is a success or a failure depending on how you view it. But basically, the problem is that he suffers the same deficit that all serial villains do. He can't be allowed to win.

Remember the GI Joe cartoon? Remember how Cobra was supposed to be this big badass organization? The world trembled at the might of Cobra, and only GI Joe could stop them. Well, that held true for a little while, but as time went by, and the seasons went on, you'd get stupid things taking place, like two little kids and a dog chasing Cobra Commander around the yard, while the Joes stand around with their hands on their hips and they laugh. Or you'd get some mom with a frying pan who would hit Destro over the head, and he'd be out cold. There was usually some moral lesson about standing up for yourself or something at the end of the episode. I think in one episode some accountant came in and closed down a Cobra base because they hadn't paid rent, or something like that. The end result was that Cobra, "an evil terrorist organization determined to rule the world" ended up being a total joke. Yeah, I'm totally terrified of a group of villains who get defeated by a scrappy kid and Shipwreck's bird.

But if you watch the cartoon, they're still supposed to be dangerous. We simply know from experience that they're kind of incompetent. Abaddon is the same way. He's supposed to be dangerous, powerful, and a force to be reckoned with. Instead, we see 13 Black Crusades and the Imperium is still doing okay. I mean, seriously, he times his last attack at the same time that the Imperium is fighting a war against the Tau, an ongoing conflict against the greatest Ork warlord in a thousand years, and fending off an attack by the largest Tyranid Hive Fleet ever seen, and all Abaddon can manage to accomplish is gaining a foothold on one planet? He has all the combined armies of Chaos at his command and that's all he can do? He doesn't just drive by Cadia and ignore it? "See that, men? That's Cadia. There are billions of Imperial soldiers down there waiting for us. Wave goodbye as we pass by it. We're going to go attack somewhere else."

Abaddon is pretty much forced to suffer through plot-induced-stupidity. He's the bad guy, so he can't win. He'll be repulsed time and again, at great cost, and then he'll vow his revenge. That's the way it works. Questioning whether he's a success or failure is really an exercise in futility. He's successful enough to maintain his rep, and he's the chosen of the Chaos gods (though there's really not a whole lot for them to choose from -- the most successful alternative is a dude with an axe who kills his own men when they don't charge heavy weapons platforms -- that's like firing Cobra Commander and putting Tomax and Xamot in charge).

Quoted For Truth

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 18:48
Abaddon might be Cobra Commander, while Horus would be Serpentor. Khorne is Pikachu.

Logarithm Udgaur
09-09-2009, 19:19
So Tzeentch is Ash?

Rat Catcher
09-09-2009, 19:26
So Tzeentch is Ash?

Only if Slaanesh is Brock.

Revelations
09-09-2009, 19:42
I wrote this a while ago, fits in nicely with this thread...

Thanks to Lexicanum for providing brief reviews for each of the Black Crusades. Iíd like to touch on the success of each one. While I initially thought we should start betting on another horse, after looking at them again, I started to understand the method of his madness, and can see the very intricate beauty of his plan.

Crusade One. Abaddon gains the Demon Sword Drachínyen.
Crusade Two. Seemingly the same assault as the first Crusade. The Imperium was able to prepare and use defenses created solely from the failures of the previous defense of the first Crusade.
Crusade Three. Not actually led by Abaddon, but another Daemon Prince. Not much is known about this by either side. Although the Space Wolves were seemingly effortlessly victorious.
Crusade Four. Abaddon destroys the Citadel of Kromarch. He easily moves beyond Cadia up to ElíPhanor.
Crusade Five. Led by another Daemon Prince. Two chapters completely destroyed. Official war declared against the Astartes.
Crusade Six. Unknown events and details.
Crusade Seven. The Ghost War, Cadia was left untouched while several surrounding systems were plagued by raids, disinformation, deceit and other forms of psychological warfare. The Blood Angels also suffer a great defeat at the hands of Abaddon.
Crusade Eight. Unknown events and details.
Crusade Nine. Led by a Slaanesh Champion. Again bypassing Cadia to assault outlying systems. Strangely, the Chaos Gods abandoned the Champion at the closing of the Crusade. In addition, while the victors did defeat Chaos, they were quickly destroyed by the Imperium due to the risk of chaotic taint.
Crusade Ten. The conflict of Helica. Iron Warriors defeat the Iron Hands at Medusa.
Crusade Eleven. Unknown events and details.
Crusade Twelve. The Gothic War. Abaddon successfully captures 2 Black Stone Fortresses.
Crusade Thirteen. The largest and most devastating Crusade to date. Minor victories by the forces of Chaos in nearly every front. Chaos still maintains control over the majority of Cadias surface. The Eldar assist and lose Eldrad in the fight.

Now as a like military mind, I can see the stages slowly being set up into a grand master plan. Each Crusade warranting a further piece of the puzzle being fit into place seemingly where no one sees any connection. Where we believe 12 failures led up to a final decisive victory in the 13th, we canít ignore the image thatís slowly coming into place.

Stage one; Abaddon gains the favor of the Chaos Gods. Therefore, heís left unscathed within the Warp and is granted immunity from Deamonic incursions or retaliations. He only has his fellow Marines to contend with, who are quickly intimidated by his newly acquired power and favors. His base of operations is firmly settled.
Stage two; Abaddon tests the learning capabilities of his enemies. To know whether or not they have the capacity to learn from their mistakes or repeat the same ones. This determines the necessity for new tactics.
Stage three; an effort to force the 13th Company back into the light. While it did fail, it notes that Abaddon knew additional Imperial allies were unaccounted for and was trying to determine where they might be and what forces they represented.
Stage four; possibly a blow to morale or removing a religious blockade. Keep in mind that Abaddon does have Daemonic allies so itís unknown what forces the Citadel could have been holding back.
Stage five; while useless chapters by anyoneís estimations, the decimation of two entire Marine Chapters is very severe. This could also provide additional support through other ways; gene seed capture as one prime example.
Stage six; following what occurred in the 7th Black Crusade, it stands to reason that the goal in this Crusade was to test routes bypassing Imperial controlled space. Seemingly a success given the relative easy of the 7th Crusade.
Stage seven; begin planting the seeds of dissent within your enemy. Cover up this intention by a direct confrontation where morale is further crushed by victory at the hands of chaos.
Stage eight; given the events of the 9th Crusade, this seems like the perfect opportunity for Abaddon to stage events that would allow upstarts to gain power and identify plausible traitors. We all know what happen to his previous Sorcerer.
Stage nine; two fold plan. The first allowing one rival to waste his efforts against your enemies when you know he doesnít have the strength to defeat them, but you donít want to waste the necessary resources to destroy him yourself. The second seeing the efforts in which the Imperium will go to insure that your efforts are crushed without remorse; furthering dissent within its Empire.
Stage ten; revitalizing old hatreds. Beginning to gain the favors and assistance of other original chapters which are too strong to take by force but can provide great assistance in further campaigns.
Stage eleven; given the purpose of the 12th Crusade, this would seem to be a war of information. Gathering key locations. Abaddon already knew how to bypass Cadia with no efforts, this provides him the locations of the Blackstone fortresses, but perhaps more importantly, additional routes through Imperial controlled space.
Stage twelve; obvious intentions and successful capture of two piece of ancient and insanely destructive technologies. Did anyone else notice these things are powerful enough to destroy stars?
Stage thirteen; the loss of a very powerful ally in the fight of good and the solid assault and entrenchment of Chaos forces in Imperial controlled space. The main defense is left in shambles and remains in conflict to this day.

Itís like setting up a chess board; your opponent is playing against each piece you move when youíre focused solely on how to get his king. Abaddon has no enemies near his stronghold to contend with like the Imperium does. Abaddon is able to slip past the main defensive line with no efforts. Abaddon has already crushed several defending allies, brought the remaining allies (minus the Primarchs) such as the 13th Company back into play, thrown what forces he contends with directly into disarray and continual conflict, has broken the morale of most systems, has sown dissent into the Imperial where rebellions are a daily concern for the Imperium, and now has a firm grip within real space.

Heís been setting up the board for the past 10,000 years, and heís done so successfully. Heís in the perfect position to strike; heís just waiting for the opportune moment. I think he hasnít struck yet because heís also trying to figure out what to do with the other powers in the galaxy. While he could easily shatter the Imperium by striking directly at Terra, I donít think itís in his best interests to destroy Earth.

One has to wonder what the next Crusade will warrant the Despoiler.

Condottiere
09-09-2009, 19:42
Tzeentch is Musashi/Jesse.

Lord_Crull
09-09-2009, 20:20
I am only comparing the two because Abbadon likes to compare himself to Horus. Its fair because Abbadon MAKES it fair. He wants to be compared to Horus? Fine. I keep him placed under the glass. He's a Primarch wannabe who couldn't win a campaign to save his live.

Must have missed Yartant and Mackan then.;)

And by your own logic, the Word Bearers must be full of fail also, since most of their battles detaile din the codices and IA's have been failiures.

But regardless you seem to be ignoring the fact that if you replace Abaddon with....... let's say Erebus or Kor Phaeron, you would get the same results if not worse.



But if you watch the cartoon, they're still supposed to be dangerous. We simply know from experience that they're kind of incompetent. Abaddon is the same way. He's supposed to be dangerous, powerful, and a force to be reckoned with. Instead, we see 13 Black Crusades and the Imperium is still doing okay. I mean, seriously, he times his last attack at the same time that the Imperium is fighting a war against the Tau, an ongoing conflict against the greatest Ork warlord in a thousand years, and fending off an attack by the largest Tyranid Hive Fleet ever seen, and all Abaddon can manage to accomplish is gaining a foothold on one planet? He has all the combined armies of Chaos at his command and that's all he can do? He doesn't just drive by Cadia and ignore it? "See that, men? That's Cadia. There are billions of Imperial soldiers down there waiting for us. Wave goodbye as we pass by it. We're going to go attack somewhere else."
).

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. The Cadian system is the only place where Abbadon can launch a major invasion through, if we ever wants to spread out into the Segmentum first, Cadia has to fall.

will564752
09-09-2009, 21:53
He's a Primarch wannabe who couldn't win a campaign to save his live.

/Sigh.....

Rat Catcher
09-09-2009, 22:09
How do we have a full thread of Abaddon aficionados' and yet half can't spell his name?

massey
09-09-2009, 23:31
It's not as simple as you make it out to be. The Cadian system is the only place where Abbadon can launch a major invasion through, if we ever wants to spread out into the Segmentum first, Cadia has to fall.

Why? When you have ships that travel through other dimensions at faster-than-light speeds, why do you have to stop at any particular location? Why not just have your whole fleet fly right by Cadia, never dropping out of warp?

If I were going to stage an invasion, I'd do it from some uninhabited rock in an empty system, a thousand light years from Cadia.

He does it because the plot forces him to do it. No other reason.

trolly
10-09-2009, 00:49
hi,


Why? When you have ships that travel through other dimensions at faster-than-light speeds, why do you have to stop at any particular location? Why not just have your whole fleet fly right by Cadia, never dropping out of warp?


why not just popped out on pluto and suprise those imperial.
and make way to terra.
i dont think angron invade armageddon through cadia.
that what make him go further than abaddon.

cheers,
:D

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 01:07
Why? When you have ships that travel through other dimensions at faster-than-light speeds, why do you have to stop at any particular location? Why not just have your whole fleet fly right by Cadia, never dropping out of warp?

If I were going to stage an invasion, I'd do it from some uninhabited rock in an empty system, a thousand light years from Cadia.

He does it because the plot forces him to do it. No other reason.

Nope, Warp travel Does Not Work like that. Cadia is the only place near the eye where the warp storms are absolutely calm, anythign else makes large fleet movement impossible.

It's all explained quite clearly in the 3.5 codex.


hi,



why not just popped out on pluto and suprise those imperial.
and make way to terra.
i dont think angron invade armageddon through cadia.
that what make him go further than abaddon.

cheers,
:D

He can't 1. Terra is the most alert and heavily fortifed system in the galaxy.

2. Warp Travel Does Not Work Like That.

3. Angron had much of his forces as summoned daemons on on world cultitsts.

massey
10-09-2009, 01:24
Nope, Warp travel Does Not Work like that. Cadia is the only place near the eye where the warp storms are absolutely calm, anythign else makes large fleet movement impossible.

It's all explained quite clearly in the 3.5 codex.



No reason they can't go right past. There's nothing to say you have to stop at Cadia and fight a war.

Penitent Engine
10-09-2009, 04:13
Perhaps the pylons quite literally act like a gate? A closed gate hampering Warp travel into/out of the Eye?
Also, I seem to recall that Terra has some sort of psychic sensor/ward system? I'm fairly certain I saw this somewhere, but it was a while ago...


And Angron was on a Space Hulk, which just drifts around, meaning he got to Armageddon by chance or it was Khorne's idea.

InquisitorNiels
10-09-2009, 04:24
No reason they can't go right past. There's nothing to say you have to stop at Cadia and fight a war.

Well you don't have to go through the Cadian Gate, but it is the best place to exit the Eye of Terror.

Chaos Codex 3.5, page 8
"Utilising the relative calm in the warp storms in the area known as the Cadian Gate..."
And Further down the page...
"In each case the force must first find a way of circumventing, infiltrating, or breaking through the Cadian Gate if it wishes to penetrate Imperial territory."

On the same page, it also says that Abaddon has led 12 (now 13) Black Crusades himself, "ranging in scale from raids...to great invasions..." Other Crusades have been led by other warlords and deamon prices, "in many cases their sole objective is to inflict as much pain as possible before escaping back to the Eye carrying whatever slaves and booty they can acquire."

So to recap the points im trying to make...
-The Cadian gates is the easiest point in which to exit the Eye of Terror, even more so if you are leading a huge army. You can get around it but its not easy, and it limits the number of men you can take with you.
-There have been more then 13 Black Crusades, but 13 of them have been led by Abaddon himself.
-Not all of the Crusades have been massive invasions, some are small raids by an elite section of the Black Legion.
-The goal is not always to burn Terra, or even to take Cadian it can be as simple as killing as many people as you can!

randian
10-09-2009, 04:54
-There have been more then 13 Black Crusades, but 13 of them have been led by Abaddon himself.
I think it would be more correct to say that only Chaos incursions led by Abaddon are "Black Crusades", the others are ordinary invasions.

Lothlanathorian
10-09-2009, 07:49
But they call all of them Black Crusades whether Abaddon has anything to with them or not.
Although, I think that they shouldn't be called that.

Condottiere
10-09-2009, 07:51
I guess the difference would be between a commando raid and D-Day.

A commando raid probably takes into account a little drifting in a far flung operation, while a major invasion force has to have all it's units appearing in the right place, at the right time, in a particular sequence, and not scattered halfway across the galaxy.

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 10:26
No reason they can't go right past. There's nothing to say you have to stop at Cadia and fight a war.

Yes they have to, that is the only place where they can launch a major invasion reliably.

InquisitorNiels
10-09-2009, 11:12
I think it would be more correct to say that only Chaos incursions led by Abaddon are "Black Crusades", the others are ordinary invasions.

In the 3.5 Chaos Codex, on page 8 under "Black Crusades" it says that Abaddon has led 12 Black Crusades, while there have been other Black Crusades led by other warlords/daemon princes. This is further backed up by the 4th edition codex on page 24, under you guessed it...Black Crusades!

x-esiv-4c
10-09-2009, 11:15
What about the Maelstrom?

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-09-2009, 11:44
Yes they have to, that is the only place where they can launch a major invasion reliably.

No, no, ignore established background about what works. Instead, make suppositions about the truth of the matter so you can criticize a fictional character!

massey
10-09-2009, 13:57
Yes they have to, that is the only place where they can launch a major invasion reliably.

Perhaps I'm not being clear. I'm not saying you don't have to drive by Cadia. I understand that the Cadian Gate is the only reliable way into or out of the Eye of Terror. It's like a canal, or a mountain pass. So the only way you can reliably leave the Eye is to go through Cadia.

I get that.

The problem I have with it is that doesn't mean you have to stop and fight a war there. Cadia is one of the top 5 most heavily defended planets in the Imperium. There's nothing valuable there. It's not a weapons depot like Vraks. It's a fortress world. You don't gain anything by seizing Cadia other than killing a bunch of IG.

You've got to have a staging point for your invasion anyway. You've got to have some place within the Eye to have all your forces meet and organize. Then you launch your attack. So you travel to Cadia, dropping out of the Warp, ships all looming and cool looking, and you laugh your evil laugh. You are now in real space, out of the Eye of Terror. You then have two choices. 1) You invade Cadia. 2) You activate your warp engines and go somewhere else. How about hopping in the warp for a day, travelling a thousand light years away, and marshalling your forces on some uninhabited dirtball? That way no one knows where you are?

As I said, Abaddon is forced into plot-induced stupidity. It's not his fault, any more than it is Cobra Commander's.

ToXiK
10-09-2009, 14:05
1 I thought there were warp jump spots?
2 surly when you drop out of the warp as has been said it is the one of the top 5 defended worlds so this doesn't include space defenses? surly as they come out of the warp a lot of sips will just be destroyed better to take the planet and have safe passage

Condottiere
10-09-2009, 14:20
Maybe Cadia is a required waypoint, especially if we're talking about a lot of ships.

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 15:48
Perhaps I'm not being clear. I'm not saying you don't have to drive by Cadia. I understand that the Cadian Gate is the only reliable way into or out of the Eye of Terror. It's like a canal, or a mountain pass. So the only way you can reliably leave the Eye is to go through Cadia.

I get that.

The problem I have with it is that doesn't mean you have to stop and fight a war there. Cadia is one of the top 5 most heavily defended planets in the Imperium. There's nothing valuable there. It's not a weapons depot like Vraks. It's a fortress world. You don't gain anything by seizing Cadia other than killing a bunch of IG.

You've got to have a staging point for your invasion anyway. You've got to have some place within the Eye to have all your forces meet and organize. Then you launch your attack. So you travel to Cadia, dropping out of the Warp, ships all looming and cool looking, and you laugh your evil laugh. You are now in real space, out of the Eye of Terror. You then have two choices. 1) You invade Cadia. 2) You activate your warp engines and go somewhere else. How about hopping in the warp for a day, travelling a thousand light years away, and marshalling your forces on some uninhabited dirtball? That way no one knows where you are?

As I said, Abaddon is forced into plot-induced stupidity. It's not his fault, any more than it is Cobra Commander's.

Nope.

Cadia has something called Battlefleet Cadia around it. Maybe you have heard of it. The elite force of Battlefleet Obsrucas, drawn from the best navy veterans.

They tend to make invasion diffcult. Especially with that place as a base.

Especially as you don't seem to get it, Cadia is right in the way of the warp storm. Cadia also has plenty of long range obrital weapons, you do the math.

The cadian system is also the only place where one can get into and out of the eye of Terror reblibly, Abbadon is goin to have problem renforming that massive invasion fleet if he does not have the system. Especially is it's being harassed by the local massive battlefleet of elite veterans.

Again, I would note that a staging point in the Eye is very different than one in realspace.

Oh, and read the Codex Eye of Terror, the entire Cadian SECTOR is fortified heavily.

InquisitorNiels
10-09-2009, 17:34
There are ways around Cadia, however if you are in command of a huge army you cant use the other routes. Can a small force pop out of the Eye somewhere no where near Cadia? Sure. Can you mobilize a huge army, maybe but your going to have a lot of trouble. Some of you ships might get lost, a few more might pop out some other place completely random. After all that, if you need more troops, or equipment you can't get it all too readily as entering/exiting is iffy at best, and a death sentence at worse.

Condottiere
10-09-2009, 17:36
Do they need a line of communications through the Cadia system?

massey
10-09-2009, 18:29
Nope.

Cadia has something called Battlefleet Cadia around it. Maybe you have heard of it. The elite force of Battlefleet Obsrucas, drawn from the best navy veterans.

They tend to make invasion diffcult. Especially with that place as a base.

You're going to have to go through them anyway to invade Cadia. Are you even reading what I write, or am I not explaining myself properly? I'm totally serious.

Imperial ships require days to travel in-system. Even assuming some crazy aspect of warp travel requires them to come out of the warp at Cadia (and I see no evidence of this), you don't have to stay there for days.


Especially as you don't seem to get it, Cadia is right in the way of the warp storm. Cadia also has plenty of long range obrital weapons, you do the math.

Yes, I get that the Cadian system is virtually the only safe exit point from the Eye of Terror.


The cadian system is also the only place where one can get into and out of the eye of Terror reblibly, Abbadon is goin to have problem renforming that massive invasion fleet if he does not have the system. Especially is it's being harassed by the local massive battlefleet of elite veterans.

Again, I would note that a staging point in the Eye is very different than one in realspace.

Oh, and read the Codex Eye of Terror, the entire Cadian SECTOR is fortified heavily.

I've read Codex: Eye of Terror. I know how it works.

-

I'm Abaddon. Here's my plan. We will rendezvous all our forces at Demon Planet 16, just inside the Eye of Terror. It's 3 days travel from Demon Planet 16 to Cadia. We all meet, we're all organized, everyone is ready to go. We turn on our engines. Three days later, we appear in the Cadian system. We look around, get our bearings, verify where we are. This takes a few hours, by what I've seen in a lot of the fluff. "Yep, we're at Cadia. Their battlefleet should be noticing us and moving to intercept." Now, we've appeared out in the middle of nowhere. We're out at the edges of the solar system. The Cadian fleet will probably set up defensive positions around the planet, and prepare for battle. Let them. As soon as we've got our coordinates verified, we're leaving. We kick on our engines and jump again, this time to Nowheresville IV, a planet two days travel from Cadia which is inhabited by some cavemen. We'll rendezvous there.

trolly
10-09-2009, 19:37
hi,



Chaos Codex 3.5, page 8
"Utilising the relative calm in the warp storms in the area known as the Cadian Gate..."
And Further down the page...
"In each case the force must first find a way of circumventing, infiltrating, or breaking through the Cadian Gate if it wishes to penetrate Imperial territory."


what about other anomali,
the way i see it that cadian gate is stable way in or out EOT in the matter of physic and times.
but abaddon is favoured by the chaos gods which is the master of the warp.
so why can he go to the maelstorm?
yes it is far from EOT, but he is protected by the gods right?
when he get out of the maelstorm he face golgotha, an ork held world, which he can choose to pass.
next is ryza, which can be a staging point, that if he sacked it, he will more powerful with ryza's plasma technology, with high cost of fighting admech.
but if he have that much allies and that big reward, why not.
then it is all the way to terra. sort jump only.
actually he can choose to turn right to terra from armageddon if he wishes.

cheers,
:D

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 19:55
hi,



what about other anomali,
the way i see it that cadian gate is stable way in or out EOT in the matter of physic and times.
but abaddon is favoured by the chaos gods which is the master of the warp.
so why can he go to the maelstorm?
yes it is far from EOT, but he is protected by the gods right?
when he get out of the maelstorm he face golgotha, an ork held world, which he can choose to pass.
next is ryza, which can be a staging point, that if he sacked it, he will more powerful with ryza's plasma technology, with high cost of fighting admech.
but if he have that much allies and that big reward, why not.
then it is all the way to terra. sort jump only.
actually he can choose to turn right to terra from armageddon if he wishes.

cheers,
:D

No he can't he's never shown that ability and we have never seen Chaos forces transport themselves form the Eye and to Terra.



I'm Abaddon. Here's my plan. We will rendezvous all our forces at Demon Planet 16, just inside the Eye of Terror. It's 3 days travel from Demon Planet 16 to Cadia. We all meet, we're all organized, everyone is ready to go. We turn on our engines. Three days later, we appear in the Cadian system. We look around, get our bearings, verify where we are. This takes a few hours, by what I've seen in a lot of the fluff. "Yep, we're at Cadia. Their battlefleet should be noticing us and moving to intercept." Now, we've appeared out in the middle of nowhere. We're out at the edges of the solar system. The Cadian fleet will probably set up defensive positions around the planet, and prepare for battle. Let them. As soon as we've got our coordinates verified, we're leaving. We kick on our engines and jump again, this time to Nowheresville IV, a planet two days travel from Cadia which is inhabited by some cavemen. We'll rendezvous there.

Congrats, now the Imperium has effectivly blocked the only safe way back to Cadia, you have doomed most of your fleet. Good job.

That's assuming, or course, the Imperial ships don't automaticaly intercept you and attack. As they are on offical watch 24/7 for that kind of thing.


You're going to have to go through them anyway to invade Cadia. Are you even reading what I write, or am I not explaining myself properly? I'm totally serious.


From what I can gather, you cannot understand basic logic. I am totally serious.



Imperial ships require days to travel in-system. Even assuming some crazy aspect of warp travel requires them to come out of the warp at Cadia (and I see no evidence of this), you don't have to stay there for days.


So do chaos ships. They do not travel faster than the Imperial fleet.



I've read Codex: Eye of Terror. I know how it works.



Then you realize no matter where Abbadon attacks, he is going ot face heavy resistance? Right? From what I can see you plan is to launch a Black Crusade simply to slaughter some random cavemen. Yeah, that will please the Dark Gods.

massey
10-09-2009, 20:30
Congrats, now the Imperium has effectivly blocked the only safe way back to Cadia, you have doomed most of your fleet. Good job.

Oh really? How? I'm going to go back to the Eye the same way I left it. Our fleet appears on the fringes of the Cadian system. We look around, verify where we are. Then we hop back into the warp and we're home.



That's assuming, or course, the Imperial ships don't automaticaly intercept you and attack. As they are on offical watch 24/7 for that kind of thing.

Imperial ships don't have the in-system speed to close with us and engage in battle. These aren't Star Trek ships that zip from one planet to the next in two minutes. Read the HH books. It takes 40K ships days to travel between planets. We'll be jumping in on the outskirts of the system, where it's probably a good week-plus for travel time from where the Imperial ships are stationed.




So do chaos ships. They do not travel faster than the Imperial fleet.

Of course not. They don't have to. We aren't looking to fight the Cadian fleet. In fact, we're simply looking to avoid them. There's fluff in the Ork Codex about how an ork fleet did just that. They zoomed right by the Cadian fleet, set everyone on alert, and then the Cadians just looked on in confusion as the orks plunged right into the Eye of Terror. So it's been done before.


Then you realize no matter where Abbadon attacks, he is going ot face heavy resistance? Right? From what I can see you plan is to launch a Black Crusade simply to slaughter some random cavemen. Yeah, that will please the Dark Gods.

He'll face heavy resistance as soon as the Imperials can get reinforcements to an area. But it's better to attack a lightly defended world (or a string of lightly defended worlds) and force the Imperium to come to you than it is to attack Planet Fortress. You don't simply slaughter cavemen. You slaughter cavemen and then you move on to other systems. You don't just sit there with a big neon sign hanging over your head saying "Come to Cadia, Fight Here".

MontytheMighty
10-09-2009, 20:52
if Abbadon is the Warmaster of chaos does that mean he's even more powerful than the daemon primarchs?

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 21:02
Oh really? How? I'm going to go back to the Eye the same way I left it. Our fleet appears on the fringes of the Cadian system. We look around, verify where we are. Then we hop back into the warp and we're home.


And you forgot about the entire Imperial fleet contorling the only way back did you? The Imperium watches and garrison vitrually everywhere.

And then we have this.


Of all approaches to the Eye of Terror, the area around the world of Cadia is most navigable, although still treacherous and uncertain

Zipping back and forth casually like that is going to have consequences.



Imperial ships don't have the in-system speed to close with us and engage in battle. These aren't Star Trek ships that zip from one planet to the next in two minutes. Read the HH books. It takes 40K ships days to travel between planets. We'll be jumping in on the outskirts of the system, where it's probably a good week-plus for travel time from where the Imperial ships are stationed.


Dude, the Cadian Gate covers the entire Eye, is a waypoint effectively, you are not going to get there as easily as you claim.

Codex Eye of Terror. Pg5.


''There are other routes from the Eye, but none are as stable as the Cadian Gate, and no force of any size can venture forth from the Eye without first passing through it.''

Chaos codex. 3rd edition 1st version.


Orbital stations numbering in their hundreds hang in the depths of space and five thousand watch stations and listening posts can be found in planetary orbits and on otherwise deserted moons and asteroids, every eye and ear searching for some omen, some sign of impending doom and disaster.

Do you not read the fluff? It's quite clear. There is no ''outskirt'' there is just the Cadian gate, the moment you arrive out of the warp you are smackdab right at Cadia. It says so right there.

They are patrolling and are ar ready, not only for the Cadian Gate, but the worlds of the Cadian sector.

In fact, I doubt that you can engage warp engines without getting a certain distance away from Cadia, going by the pylons, if anything, you would have ot fight your way by the fleet before warp engines. Note that the orks did not simply go straight into the warp.



Of course not. They don't have to. We aren't looking to fight the Cadian fleet. In fact, we're simply looking to avoid them. There's fluff in the Ork Codex about how an ork fleet did just that. They zoomed right by the Cadian fleet, set everyone on alert, and then the Cadians just looked on in confusion as the orks plunged right into the Eye of Terror. So it's been done before.


No,going back in to the eye while nobody is expecting you to do that is a vastly different thing from charging out the Eye.



He'll face heavy resistance as soon as the Imperials can get reinforcements to an area. But it's better to attack a lightly defended world (or a string of lightly defended worlds) and force the Imperium to come to you than it is to attack Planet Fortress. You don't simply slaughter cavemen. You slaughter cavemen and then you move on to other systems. You don't just sit there with a big neon sign hanging over your head saying "Come to Cadia, Fight Here".

*sigh* There are no lightly defended worlds in the Cadian sector, most of them are heavily populated and militarized. Plus it's constantly being patrolled.

Chaos codex. 3rd edition 1st one.


untold vessels of Battleflcet Obscuras constantly make patrols and sweeps of the thousands of nearby star systems.

And guess what? the cavemen you killed? The Imperium does not give a crap.

If you can't get any of the really important wolrds, then you are just raiding. Something that the Imperiuim really does not care about, they can easily rebuild those worlds.

Not the heavily fortified worlds of the Cadian Gate.

Seriously, it sounds like you do not read the fluff at all.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-09-2009, 22:00
if Abbadon is the Warmaster of chaos does that mean he's even more powerful than the daemon primarchs?

Depends on how you view power. Personal combat/Warp-based power? No. The power to mobilize and use the Legions and the Lost and the Damned? Hell yes.

Industrial Propaganda
10-09-2009, 22:10
i dont think angron invade armageddon through cadia.
that what make him go further than abaddon.
cheers,
:D

Yes, Angron passed through Cadia with his Space Hulk and a small World Eaters fleet. They are not detected before incoming in the Armageddon system. (source : The Battles for Armageddon fluffbook).

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 22:22
Yes, Angron passed through Cadia with his Space Hulk and a small World Eaters fleet. They are not detected before incoming in the Armageddon system. (source : The Battles for Armageddon fluffbook).

See? A small fleet like this can do it, a large invasion force like Massy is proposing has far less chance of doing this sucessfully.

Industrial Propaganda
10-09-2009, 22:27
See? A small fleet like this can do it, a large invasion force like Massy is proposing had far less chance of doing this sucessfully.

Yes, I can add that the World Eaters fleet separated often to keep hidden, only to regroup again later with the Space Hulk to attack some Imperial worlds on their road to Armageddon.

A large battlefleet like the 13th Crusade of Abaddon would be detected immediately.

w00tm0ng3r
10-09-2009, 23:41
To massey's credit something like what he's proposing HAS happened before. In the 7th black crusade Abaddon's forces charge out of the gate, rush past the Cadians, and disappear into the warp leaving the Imperials scratching their heads and going "WTF just happened?". The problem seemed to be that they couldn't keep cohesion together so the fleet splintered (or maybe it was intentional I don't know) into a bunch of raiding parties that went and sacked a bunch of worlds far from the EoT. Abaddon and some Khorne guys randomly raped the blood angels before everyone rushed back through the EoT while the Imperials once again sat scratching their heads going "WTF just happened?".

Lord_Crull
10-09-2009, 23:47
To massey's credit something like what he's proposing HAS happened before. In the 7th black crusade Abaddon's forces charge out of the gate, rush past the Cadians, and disappear into the warp leaving the Imperials scratching their heads and going "WTF just happened?". The problem seemed to be that they couldn't keep cohesion together so the fleet splintered (or maybe it was intentional I don't know) into a bunch of raiding parties that went and sacked a bunch of worlds far from the EoT. Abaddon and some Khorne guys randomly raped the blood angels before everyone rushed back through the EoT while the Imperials once again sat scratching their heads going "WTF just happened?".

First of all, I would point out that the the 7th Black Crusade was not a massive invasion, instead they launched hit and run raids that where ultimately unscuessful.

Plus the Crusade itself is vague enough that we don't know if Abbadon simply fought part of his fleet past Cadia and then ordered them to trickle back over the decades later.

Actually I would note that you are speaking of the 4th Black Crusade, it seems that crusade Abbadon was able to fight is way there. That source is also very vague. Not to mention we don't know where El'Phanor is.

Firaxin
11-09-2009, 00:51
the Imperium was stretched thin holding off the... Tau in the Eastern Fringe.

What?! :wtf:
Why do you people keep bringing up the Tau? You think Abaddon timed his crusade to coincide with a Tau Expansion phase? None of the chaos marines in the Eye even know who the Tau are!


Objectively though, it took all the united forces of humanity, all 20 primarchs, uber tech so they'd be using real TANKS instead of TRACTORS (rhino), and the emperor himself 200 years to conquer (most of) the current Imperium.
You mean double the size of the current Imperium.



I like the idea of Cadia being a 'closed-gate', where the warp is so nulled that you have to exit and pass in realspace. Even if the idea is unsupported (aye, even refuted). It makes a certain kind of sense with the Necron pylons there.

will564752
11-09-2009, 01:29
if Abbadon is the Warmaster of chaos does that mean he's even more powerful than the daemon primarchs?

Well the Daemon Primarchs are just that; Daemons and Primarchs! On a personal strength/warp-power level that would outmatch Abaddon in my opinion. Although Abaddon has the authority and widespread influence throughout all the Traitor Legions that none of the Daemon Primachs have.

Aside from that though there are older and more powerful Daemon Princes than the Daemon Primarchs anyway. :)


Not to mention we don't know where El'Phanor is.

According to my map its just within the Segmentum Solar.

trolly
11-09-2009, 01:53
hi,


What?! :wtf:
Why do you people keep bringing up the Tau? You think Abaddon timed his crusade to coincide with a Tau Expansion phase? None of the chaos marines in the Eye even know who the Tau are!


yes they know, at least as per the video games.
but isn't the sword of commander farsight supposed to be a daemon sword?
which i think intentionally left by chaos to corrupt the tau.


To massey's credit something like what he's proposing HAS happened before. In the 7th black crusade Abaddon's forces charge out of the gate, rush past the Cadians, and disappear into the warp leaving the Imperials scratching their heads and going "WTF just happened?". The problem seemed to be that they couldn't keep cohesion together so the fleet splintered (or maybe it was intentional I don't know) into a bunch of raiding parties that went and sacked a bunch of worlds far from the EoT. Abaddon and some Khorne guys randomly raped the blood angels before everyone rushed back through the EoT while the Imperials once again sat scratching their heads going "WTF just happened?".

hey this what i have in mind make those imperials think " what happened? ".
but this time he go further to terra.


cheers,
:D

BrotherMoses
11-09-2009, 02:07
Abaddon might be Cobra Commander, while Horus would be Serpentor. Khorne is Pikachu.

ROFL

Ok, someone make a chaos Cobra themed army. Get on it.

BrotherMoses
11-09-2009, 02:12
Ok guys here is the way it works with this chaos stuff.
Horus: He was awesome and cool and the favored of the gods.... Then he was obliterated. He is of no more use. Therefore he sucked and was terrible. Hail Chaos!
Abaddon: Has managed to be a major chaos leader while not becoming a daemon, being killed/usurped, or becoming slavish to one power over another(or even necessarilly all in concert). Abaddon is more awesome than Horus, because Horus has failed before. Chaos does not tolerate failure. The universe belongs to the strong. The weak are to be cast aside by those strong enough to take what they wish!

trolly
11-09-2009, 02:31
hi,


Ok guys here is the way it works with this chaos stuff.
Horus: He was awesome and cool and the favored of the gods.... Then he was obliterated. He is of no more use. Therefore he sucked and was terrible. Hail Chaos!
Abaddon: Has managed to be a major chaos leader while not becoming a daemon, being killed/usurped, or becoming slavish to one power over another(or even necessarilly all in concert). Abaddon is more awesome than Horus, because Horus has failed before. Chaos does not tolerate failure. The universe belongs to the strong. The weak are to be cast aside by those strong enough to take what they wish!

and how many times abaddon retreated to EOT?

cheers,
:D

BrotherMoses
11-09-2009, 02:35
hi,



and how many times abaddon retreated to EOT?

cheers,
:D

No no, you're not getting it. He doesn't necessarily have to WIN anything. He just has to survive while being a bad guy. Thats the name of the game. :p

Firaxin
11-09-2009, 04:33
yes they know, at least as per the video games.
but isn't the sword of commander farsight supposed to be a daemon sword?
which i think intentionally left by chaos to corrupt the tau.
:eyebrows:

Chaos spans the entire galaxy. Just because chaos agents from the maelstrom/etc have fought the Tau does not mean that those in the Eye care about them or even know who they are. If you can provide hard evidence from a game specifying the chaos marines were from the eye (and returned there after the game's conclusion) then they don't count.

And there's no conclusive proof that the Dawnblade is of chaos origin, though it seems most likely--even then it wouldn't've been left behind specifically for the Tau to find.

Condottiere
11-09-2009, 07:47
ROFL

Ok, someone make a chaos Cobra themed army. Get on it.Need an appropriate model to represent the Baroness.

will564752
11-09-2009, 09:18
and how many times abaddon retreated to EOT?


& How does that make him a failure?

Start thinking realistically people.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-09-2009, 11:35
Start thinking realistically people.

You're not getting it either.


No, no, ignore established background about what works. Instead, make suppositions about the truth of the matter so you can criticize a fictional character!

Mullitron
11-09-2009, 11:42
I see it as Abbadon doing very well, he doesnt seem to be fighting for the 'good' of chaos he is fighting for his own personal goals. If we wanted an icecream that could only be bought only on cadia he could muster the forces to lead an attack on cadia and get his icecream. (ok bad analogy :P ) He has goals, and the forces of chaos are simply his tools to accomplish these goals. Since he has little chance of death he can take his time focusing on one task at a time. He may not possess the forces to take on the imperium head on but he has the forces to lead hit and run attacks which empower himself and hopefully weaken the enemy in the process. Hes a bit like malekith with his war against the high elves.

abasio
11-09-2009, 15:30
Hello,


hi,

and how many times abaddon retreated to EOT?

cheers,
:D

Chaos doesn't want to destroy everything, they just want....well chaos which Abaddon brings in spades. So he's sucessful.

Cheerie bye

:angel:

w00tm0ng3r
11-09-2009, 15:55
Need an appropriate model to represent the Baroness.

Lelith Hesperax. Paint her up so she's wearing skintight black leather instead of ugh skintight skin and add a plasma pistol or two. Done.

Condottiere
11-09-2009, 17:13
Lelith Hesperax. Paint her up so she's wearing skintight black leather instead of ugh skintight skin and add a plasma pistol or two. Done.

Thanks - looks promising.

Trakk3r
11-09-2009, 21:23
If you want Chaos to destroy the Imperium, switch Abbadon with Archaon.

If you want Chaos to battle the Imperium and cause enough pain as possible, choose Abbadon. :)