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Arkley
09-09-2009, 23:04
Hi all let me first apologise if this has been done before :(...

I have decided after years of Ultras to do a DIY chapter called the Knights of Cydonia (Yes I'm Muse obsessed)

My question is this would all successor chapters of the Dark Angels be informed of the hunt for the fallen?

Would I be able to get away with having an ex Dark Angel Master as my Grand Master?

I dont want the DA fans to hate me :).

Hypaspist
09-09-2009, 23:13
Nice title for a successor Chapter :)

Absolutely yes, each successor chapter to a greater or lesser extent is fixated on the hunt for the fallen.
Successor chapters have thier own inner circles and it's not unheard of (according to codex fluff at least) for Grand Masters to hold secret meetings in the Rock, so there is perfectly good justification for you to;

a) Treat DA knowledge of the Hunt for the fallen as Knights of Cydonia knowledge.
b) Have the same goals and ambitions.

You might want to put a slight slant on it, for instance to get a bit more of a 'personal' feel, but DA players aren't going to hate you! ;)
Remember brother.
Never Forget, Never Forgive.

Rat Catcher
09-09-2009, 23:14
My question is this would all successor chapters of the Dark Angels be informed of the hunt for the fallen?

Would I be able to get away with having an ex Dark Angel Master as my Grand Master?

I dont want the DA fans to hate me :).

Yes, all successor chapters "higher ups" are aware of the Fallen and said hunt of them; Dark Angels keep a very close watch and have a tight hold over any chapter of their gene seed.

Do as you like with the Grand Master - being part of the Imperium makes you their brother in arms; rivalry or not nobody will verbally assault you when there are heretics and xenos' about.

grissom2006
09-09-2009, 23:15
Yes they would be informed otherwise the chapter would never be allowed to be formed by them. The Dark Angels would possibly set one of there own high ranking officers in charge.

NightrawenII
10-09-2009, 07:30
Well, Angels of Abosolution hunt Fallen only because its their duty not because they want redeem themself.

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 07:43
Sorry about the nitpicking, but Knights of Cydonia (http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=33.870415&lon=-19.6875&map=visible&q=cydonia) would be a better name for an Iron Hands successor chapter, or possibly a Titan Legion. :)

Askil the Undecided
10-09-2009, 10:22
Yes but Cydonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydonia) was also a city in Crete, a Greek goddess and a genus of flowering plant in the family Rosaceae. So it's not like there have been no other claims to the name.

Arkley
10-09-2009, 10:28
I named them based on 2 factors :) the Muse song and a region on Mars. I can understand Andrews point and I was considering Iron Hands at first, but I like the robe aspect of the DA as well as the iconagraphy (sp).

Well I will be doing them as a 7th founding Chapter, originally led by a Dark Angel Master of undecided name :).

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 10:40
Of course, there's also the possibility of making them a Noise Marine warband ... :)

Sir_Turalyon
10-09-2009, 11:03
As far as I remember there are DA successors (or successors to DA succeessors) that do not know about Fallen, but they are just codex chapters. I would say that if Chapter uses DA organisation (and rules) they hunt the Fallen and if they use Codex:Ultramaries they are unaware of Fallen.

electricwolf
10-09-2009, 14:22
My question is this would all successor chapters of the Dark Angels be informed of the hunt for the fallen?

Yes, all successor chapters would know about the fallen, the hunt for them and the history of caliban and what happened.


I would also say that all successor chapters are organized the same way and the Dark Angels are with Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Would I be able to get away with having an ex Dark Angel Master as my Grand Master?


That does make logical sense if they are a relatively newly formed chapter.

I dont want the DA fans to hate me :).

Hate you, dude, welcome to the unforgiven.

BTW I have 11,000pts of Dark Angels.

Onisuzume
10-09-2009, 15:08
Erm, not all DA successors would know it.
The Techies on Mars are free to use whatever geneseed they want if the high lords order another marine chapter. So it isn't too unlikely that they'll use DA geneseed. But those chapters wouldn't, however, be part of the Unforgiven, and thus would be ignorant of the Fallen, unless they somehow stumbled upon one (imagine the odds...).

grissom2006
10-09-2009, 16:29
Erm, not all DA successors would know it.
The Techies on Mars are free to use whatever geneseed they want if the high lords order another marine chapter. So it isn't too unlikely that they'll use DA geneseed. But those chapters wouldn't, however, be part of the Unforgiven, and thus would be ignorant of the Fallen, unless they somehow stumbled upon one (imagine the odds...).

I have to disagree on that as if you read the Successor Chapters of the DA Codex it states that even the ones they don't have recorded still refer to themselves as The Unforgiven.

Fallen DA
10-09-2009, 17:11
I dont want the DA fans to hate me :).

Errr... Yup. Pretty much hate you :mad:

Onisuzume
10-09-2009, 19:56
I have to disagree on that as if you read the Successor Chapters of the DA Codex it states that even the ones they don't have recorded still refer to themselves as The Unforgiven.
Can't refer to yourself as a DA successor if nobody knows that you *are* a DA successor, can you? :rolleyes:

Messiah
10-09-2009, 22:30
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cydonia_(goddess)) is who the region of Mars is named after..

TheDarkDaff
10-09-2009, 23:14
Jus thought i would point out that the DA Codex has some nice bits here for you. The Admech are very reluctant to use DA Geneseed despite it's purity, so there aren't many successors running around. Also it does mention a chapter that doesn't know about the fallen at all (makes it out as the exception in the other DA successors), so it is possible but very unlikely.

By the way, welcome to the Inner Circles.

Lothlanathorian
11-09-2009, 19:53
I remember when only the DA and their Second Founding Chapters were known as the Unforgiven.

TheDarkDaff
12-09-2009, 10:45
I remember when only the DA and their Second Founding Chapters were known as the Unforgiven.

That would be from Codex: Angels of Death were we only got the Dark Angels and their second founding from that particular Geneseed family. Most of the later foundings have only been added into the latest codex.

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 15:21
I remember when only the DA and their Second Founding Chapters were known as the Unforgiven.
And that got retconned.
Just look at the Disciples of Caliban fluff. A DA Grand Master requested the creation of a new DA successor, request was granted, and now that successor is also hunting the Fallen.

But since the new codex does *not* have any special rules that have to do with hunting the fallen (like the last codex), they can be used with any DA successor chapter provided they use the same codex structure. It does not mean they would know about the Fallen though.

Arkley
12-09-2009, 20:29
I was snooping around and noticed a few things... We can consider the DA at the time of the 2nd Founding were more that 4k strong?

If thats true then at the time of the 2nd Founding only the following are written down as being part of the original DA these being...

Angels of Redemption
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Vengence
And the Dark Angels of course.

That accounts for 4k marines even after the fallen surely there was more DA left... I donnu what the fluff in the 2nd edition codex says about this I would be interested to know... As I am toying with the idea of being 2nd founding.

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 22:12
Well, the Dark Angels suffered quite a few losses between the rush towards Terra, the liberation of it, and the fight with the Fallen.

IIRC, only the Ultrasmurfs were mostly unharmed from the Horus Heresy because they were stupid enough to be led too far away from Terra.

Condottiere
12-09-2009, 22:17
That's not necessarily stupidity.

Arkley
12-09-2009, 22:50
Well, the Dark Angels suffered quite a few losses between the rush towards Terra, the liberation of it, and the fight with the Fallen.

IIRC, only the Ultrasmurfs were mostly unharmed from the Horus Heresy because they were stupid enough to be led too far away from Terra.

If you have read the HH books it was more of a plan by Horus to keep them out of the Heresy simply because he knew Guilliman would not side with him.

But thanks for bring the Ultramarines into a DA discussion :rolleyes:.

Finn
13-09-2009, 04:09
Of course, there's also the possibility of making them a Noise Marine warband ... :)

I can't believe nobody else got that. Or at least they didn't comment on it...

As an aside, I was really hoping to find a way to reasonably convert my Noise Marines from normal Chaos guys, using bits that would look like they were holding guitars, or sound guys lugging around amps and drums....but it just would've been too much work.

I'm of the opinion that if you really want to get into it, you should paint/model Muse stuff on your vehicles, or possibly on your models...and you should name your chapter master! ;)

TheDarkDaff
13-09-2009, 08:04
I was snooping around and noticed a few things... We can consider the DA at the time of the 2nd Founding were more that 4k strong?

If thats true then at the time of the 2nd Founding only the following are written down as being part of the original DA these being...

Angels of Redemption
Angels of Absolution
Angels of Vengence
And the Dark Angels of course.

That accounts for 4k marines even after the fallen surely there was more DA left... I donnu what the fluff in the 2nd edition codex says about this I would be interested to know... As I am toying with the idea of being 2nd founding.

Simple answer is the record we get with the named successors is imcomplete. It is mentioned in some Ultra-fluff that another listing says the Ultra's had 26 successors but doesn't list them. So why shouldn't other Legions have had more successors that weren't named. Just be careful which legion you pick as some definately didn't have any more chapters made (like the Space Wolves who split in half and that was it).

Onisuzume
13-09-2009, 10:28
Because most other legions suffered a lot more losses.
Like I said; the Ultrasmurfs were pretty much the only legion not to suffer huge losses.

Arkley
14-09-2009, 11:25
Ok after more reading, and that guide to creating a Successor chapter it seems the done thing to avoid creating a new chapter from the 2nd founding - fair enough :)...

So what I was thinking was 3rd founding, all 10 Masters of the Chapter are from the Dark Angels and their 2nd founding brothers... Dont misunderstand I dont plan on saying that they are all Masters, most of them would have been veterans who would be maybe considered to be Masters in the future.

This gives me the freedom to include the fallen into my history, it also gives me the freedom to use the robes and DA symbols (I suck at GS :p).

Edit - Would the Successor chapters hand over the Fallen to the Dark Angels?

Onisuzume
14-09-2009, 13:27
Hm...

I think that successor chapters would interrogate the Fallen themselves, unless they think that their own interrogator-chaplains aren't up to the job. They would, ofcourse, report it back to the Dark Angels for administrative purposes.

Szafraniec
14-09-2009, 18:08
Hm...

I think that successor chapters would interrogate the Fallen themselves, unless they think that their own interrogator-chaplains aren't up to the job. They would, ofcourse, report it back to the Dark Angels for administrative purposes.

Definitely. When you consider the whole mission is to cross all the names of the Fallen out of the book, it would be a red-tape disaster to have several factions of the most notoriously secretive SMs keeping information from eachother.

Bergioyn
14-09-2009, 20:04
Definitely. When you consider the whole mission is to cross all the names of the Fallen out of the book, it would be a red-tape disaster to have several factions of the most notoriously secretive SMs keeping information from eachother.

Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain: Hm lets see... We only need Fallen Brother Fabian to account for the 132th page.

Angels Of Absolution Interrogator Chaplain: Wait, what? Fallen Brother Fabian? We caught him a couple of hundred years ago.

Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain: What??

Angels Of Absolution Interrogator Chaplain: Yes, he was organizing uprising on Helios IV with Fallen Brother Marcus.

Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain: What?? Fallen Brother Marcus?? He's right here, on page 205! Marked as Atlarge!

Angels Of Absolution Interrogator Chaplain: Let me see... We missed Fallen Brother Pradus though... Hey! you guys have him crossed of on page 99!

Disciples of Caliban Interrogator Chaplain *comes from checking the archives*: Hey guys, have you heard of Fallen Brother Berez?

Angels Of Absolution Interrogator Chaplain: Yes, we have caught him already.

Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain: Yes, see? Here, on page 592.

Disciples of Caliban Interrogator Chaplain: What? When? No-one ever tells me anything!

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 22:16
I think my sides just split, I can SOOOOO imagine that happening!

TheDarkDaff
14-09-2009, 22:27
Would the Successor chapters hand over the Fallen to the Dark Angels?

It is pretty much outright stated that Azrael is in control of not only the Dark Angels but also the rest of the Unforgiven. They have circles that cross the chapter boundaries and i'm pretty sure most of the fallen are interrogated in the Tower of Angels when possible. All the chapters seem to have Interrogator Chaplins though.

Arkley
14-09-2009, 22:39
It is pretty much outright stated that Azrael is in control of not only the Dark Angels but also the rest of the Unforgiven. They have circles that cross the chapter boundaries and i'm pretty sure most of the fallen are interrogated in the Tower of Angels when possible. All the chapters seem to have Interrogator Chaplins though.

Thats cool I want my chapter to have good relations with the rest of the Unforgiven anyway... They will also be invovled in a chapter war but not with anyone known again this will be made up when I write my chapter history up :)

I want their history to be well planned and thought out... But I wonder if my chapter name is fine :confused:

pookie
15-09-2009, 14:36
Simple answer is the record we get with the named successors is imcomplete. It is mentioned in some Ultra-fluff that another listing says the Ultra's had 26 successors but doesn't list them. So why shouldn't other Legions have had more successors that weren't named. Just be careful which legion you pick as some definately didn't have any more chapters made (like the Space Wolves who split in half and that was it).

you do realise you contradicted your self there dont you.

OT - remeber if the DA were 10.000 strong and half stayed Loyal and half Renegade, thatw ould still be the DA and 4 successors - so the numbers do add up, they just seem a little strange.

i would have thought that the DA did lose a lot of Troops in the opening salvoe from Caliban when they returned home, so this and along with the loses they couldnt replace till they got home ( rememeber they still recruited from Caliban only then ) as Luther would have been slow in sending new recruits, but instead subverting them to his own cause.

Goruax
15-09-2009, 15:24
Yes, all successor chapters "higher ups" are aware of the Fallen and said hunt of them; Dark Angels keep a very close watch and have a tight hold over any chapter of their gene seed.

The hell they do :p

My successors are shunned by the Unfogiven because of their attitudes towards the Lion, and thusly aren't told about the Hunt.

Fallen DA
15-09-2009, 17:35
If memory serves, in the first printing of the Angels of darkness. It was quoted that the DA Legion was about 25 thousand strong. The Unforgiven originally quoted are known successor chapters, so one of yoru making could easily be one that wansnt listed. OR you could do a lost DA Legion from the HH? Make up your own Characters etc....

TheDarkDaff
15-09-2009, 21:44
you do realise you contradicted your self there dont you.

How did i manage that. Of the Loyal legions we know that the Ultramarines had more successors than those named, the Space Wolves only had one (the Wolf Brothers) and the Salamander's, Raven Guard and Iron Hands were pretty badly bashed up at Istvaan. Of the other Legions (DA, IF, BA & WS) we get no indication if they only had the named successors or if they had more. We also get told there are a number of records about the break down of the legions.

It is definately left very vague except in a few cases so play around with it to your hearts content.

Arkley
15-09-2009, 21:59
After reading B&C guide to creating a chapter its frowned on to do 2nd founding, so I ask you guys would you being DA players find it being impossible to do so or should I do whatever the hell I want :)

Hypaspist
16-09-2009, 08:15
... or should I do whatever the hell I want :)

Totally this!
The key is to make whatever you create stand up under scrutiny, for instance (and I can't off the top of my head remember which successor chapter it is) one of the successor chapters seem overly interested in reclaiming relics. There are also a few *ever so slightly* different interpretations in how they successor chapters are going to reclaim their honour, so having s specific purpose may lend credence to your chapter. (iirc the creation of successor chapters is *strongly* controlled for the DA)

Ultimately, make a successor chapter of your own, make it believable and not too OTT and only the fiercest of Fluff Nazis would criticise you for it.

pookie
16-09-2009, 12:24
How did i manage that.

because you said ( important word bolded)


Simple answer is the record we get with the named successors is imcomplete. It is mentioned in some Ultra-fluff that another listing says the Ultra's had 26 successors but doesn't list them. So why shouldn't other Legions have had more successors that weren't named. Just be careful which legion you pick as some definately didn't have any more chapters made (like the Space Wolves who split in half and that was it).

you cant then go on and say we no for certain that soem did/didnt do something. hence you contradicted yourself.

i agree theres only one known split form the SW, but its as you said, a incomplete list.

@ Arkley, - no it really is frowned upon, but they are your Marines after all.

TheDarkDaff
16-09-2009, 14:17
because you said ( important word bolded)



you cant then go on and say we no for certain that soem did/didnt do something. hence you contradicted yourself.

i agree theres only one known split form the SW, but its as you said, a incomplete list.

You mean that one little list of the Second Founding. I am also drawing on my knowledge of the 2nd ed Space Wof Codex which flat out stated that they only split once into the Space Wolves and the Wolf Brothers. So we do know for certain it is correct there but again the Ultramarines were supposed to have 26 successors but they aren't named (which does make the named list incomplete).

I guess i should have made it clearer i was using more than just that piece of fluff.

So to sum up what i said.
1. The named list isn't complete.
2. For some Legions (like Space Wolves) it is exactly right.
3. Some Legions were unlikely to have more due to heavy losses (most notably those at Istvaan.
4. We don't havve a definate statement about other 2nd founding chapters the DA may have had.

Arkley
16-09-2009, 14:29
So I have to ask why is it frowned apon to be a 2nd Founding DIY, sorry I'm not acting stupid I just as a rule dont get so deep invovled with the gaming community :).

Urath
16-09-2009, 14:32
I think it's generally because so many people make their DIY chapter of the second founding, when there are 20+ other foundings to choose from.

pookie
16-09-2009, 15:50
So I have to ask why is it frowned apon to be a 2nd Founding DIY, sorry I'm not acting stupid I just as a rule dont get so deep invovled with the gaming community :).

see below


I think it's generally because so many people make their DIY chapter of the second founding, when there are 20+ other foundings to choose from.

its more because the known chpaters from the second founding are pretty much set already, and for me i dislike people who try to insert there force right from the start, the 21st founding ( cursed ) was in M36 - so there splenty to choose from before and after.

it shows very little immagination imo.

the 3rd Founding iirc was the smallest, with only the GK created. the 13th no one knows much about - Dark Founding, but other than that your pretty much free to pick a founding.

Finn
16-09-2009, 21:43
I think it would actually be really cool if some sort of mishap tainted your successor's geneseed or founding in some manner.

Maybe the seed mutated. Maybe it was lost for a short time, and even though its purity couldn't be verified at the time of recovery it was absolutely necessary to found the chapter -right now-.

Perhaps you were denied access to Terminator armor because of it, or certain other pieces of wargear.

Of course taints in geneseed wouldn't be represented in the original masters of the chapter, but they would in all following them...

And I still remember the rules in Index Astartes for the Cursed (or was it Dark?) Founding... Granted that modified profiles and points values, but perhaps you could add some of that in just for fluff and forget about the in-game effects. Weren't the Red Scorpions one of these? Maybe I'm mistaken there...

Onisuzume
16-09-2009, 22:02
Cursed Founding, yes...
And I don't remember the article mentioning the Red Scorpions in it.
Then again, I don't know if FW had already come up with the Scorps at that time.