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View Full Version : After reading the SW dex...I say, bring it sons of Russ.



Lusall
10-09-2009, 04:50
As an avid Dark Angel player, I felt blue when the new Space Marine codex came out. I've even thrown around the idea of playing normal space marines and calling them Dark Angels.

After I read the new Space Wolf codex, I felt gray. I almost thought about using Logan as my master Belial and the wolf guard as my Deathwing.

But after some thought...I just say enough. I call on all Dark Angel players to gather their Dark Angel armies and join me and use the Dark Angel codex. Don't use the updates from the Space Marine dex and don't fuss about the new Space Wolf dex. Plant your feet in the ground and tell those mangy pups to bring it on!

Zingbaby
10-09-2009, 04:52
Right on brother... same goes for my Blood Angels; I welcome the challenge!

antin3
10-09-2009, 05:02
Well I play SM of the chaos variety (mainly Khorne) So I too say if your going to bring it bring it strong pups!

nagash42
10-09-2009, 06:26
yeah my nids say bring just avoid huge gaps made by their psychers :P

Putty
10-09-2009, 06:32
low model count assualty army with no real dedicated anti-tank?

not very worried about them... they are just daemons with better rules.

wolf40k
10-09-2009, 06:41
Me and my Space Puppies will take you all on, and no dedicated anti tank? You must never have seen all the tanks we can take(all the ones in the SM codex) and our better then devastator, long fang squads.

We will rock you!!!:evilgrin:

Loki73
10-09-2009, 06:54
Finally! A thread were someone mans up! I punch your man card with a gold star sir! And give you all that aren't sniveling a very well deserved, huzzah! Way to go I say! Bring it to em!

Hypaspist
10-09-2009, 07:16
Those puppies will be too busy playing dress up in their fancy wolf pelts to see my power fist of *win* coming their way!
Let the sons of Russ bring it, and they can watch what it *means*to be the Emperors first and finest chapter!

perplexiti
10-09-2009, 07:27
While I am a son of Russ, I'm stoked to hear a DA player saying he's going to use his codex, good on ya mate. My good friend plays DA's and he too uses the dex, stand strong guys.

hawo0313
10-09-2009, 07:27
If they want a real chapter they can fight my BA bring it on space dogs we dont need the fancy stuff to be teh best but really nothin against SW players just jealous of the codex

wolf40k
10-09-2009, 07:28
Come on, I will now have space marine Wolf Calvary, Actual Space marines Riding Wolves to battle. Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing will ever trump that amount of win.:p

AngryAngel
10-09-2009, 07:29
I agree, at first I thought the insult of GW's lackluster Dark Angel dex would be too much to handle. However, after much playing with it I've found it works fine. I don't need all the new what nots in the new space marine dex. I don't need what the space wolves will have. They need the new toys and better rules to have a chance. A Dark Angel is cut from a better cloth. They can bring it, and we'll gun them down just like all the rest. They want to make it to close combat. We'll see. Bring it on with your small manned longfang squad. I'm not afraid of nob bikers, lash of submission or any of the so called power lists.

You want some space wolves, bring it on, The DA is right here, and all you are is another rabid dog waiting to get put down.

wolf40k
10-09-2009, 07:44
You want some space wolves, bring it on, The DA is right here, and all you are is another rabid dog waiting to get put down.

Woof Woof!:p

Wolfguard Gnarl
10-09-2009, 08:01
I'm liking this spirit of competition and the DA/BA players sticking to their guns<codex>. You guys are going to make some fun games. I'll bring it to ya, well..... after I get my lazy butt to assemble and paint my space wolves. lol

MasterGideon
10-09-2009, 08:47
I heard rumours SW can field Termnies as troops? If so how many can they field......Cos I am pretty sure my full Deathwing Company will give any SW player a fight :D

You can have you wolfriders, and fancy new toys, But at the end of the day Deathwing Hands down will be left standing.


For the Lion, For Caliban!

MasterGideon

wolf40k
10-09-2009, 08:57
I heard rumours SW can field Termnies as troops? If so how many can they field......Cos I am pretty sure my full Deathwing Company will give any SW player a fight :D


A Wolf lord lets you take one squad of Wolfgaurd, who can be upgraded to termies, and taking Logan Grimnar Lets you field as many as you want, acording to the ruomers anyway, I haven't seen the codex yet, but aperently some stores have teir preview copy already.

Souleater
10-09-2009, 09:33
Ah, I love the smell of internet-testosterone in the morning :D

Ozybonza
10-09-2009, 09:33
I play Dark Angels (mostly Doublewing) and have never used any SM updates, usually because I'm gearing up for a tournament.

Sure we have some disadvantages, but our Apothacaries are way better than SM's if you are saving bikes or termies.

1 x Apoth on bike and 1 x terminator apoth = 2 x saved terminators per turn, even versus plasma. Won me many a game, they have.

Sons of Russ
10-09-2009, 09:42
As an avid Dark Angel player, I felt blue when the new Space Marine codex came out. I've even thrown around the idea of playing normal space marines and calling them Dark Angels.

After I read the new Space Wolf codex, I felt gray. I almost thought about using Logan as my master Belial and the wolf guard as my Deathwing.

But after some thought...I just say enough. I call on all Dark Angel players to gather their Dark Angel armies and join me and use the Dark Angel codex. Don't use the updates from the Space Marine dex and don't fuss about the new Space Wolf dex. Plant your feet in the ground and tell those mangy pups to bring it on!

So.... as you look to the left..... you will see my avatar handle...which seems rather biased...

However, I havent picked up my Wolves in over 8 years, and have been playing Imperial Fists, Dark Angel Double Wing (more Deathwingy than raven-wingy) as well as some new mech guard....


I , too, have just spent about 2 hours pouring over the new Wolves dex. All I can say is WOW.

The only drawback to the codex is the temptation to go all out on the toys. The units have amazing capablities and the special characters are absolutely top shelf.

I think one of the best things going will be the less blingy units. I can almost guarantee that large formations of mechanized grey hunters with two flamers or meltaguns will be an amazingly powerful build in the coming months...The key will be not going crazy on all the extras...

As player that has over 45 terminators, I smile ear to ear when I realized just how amazing Wolf Guard terminator armies can be.

No offence to DA, but I dont see how the Deathwing as any chance against a Wolf-Wing in 5th edition.

Were talking standard terminators with counter attack, acute senses, storm bolter, power weapon and Ld9 for OVER A THIRD LESS POINTS. Lots of points left over for a smattering of very cheap single Wolf Claws and Chainfists when needed...

As well as chaos-terminator-cheap combi meltas, combi flamer sand combi plasma...

The only terminators cheaper are bare bones chaos, and when you compare bare bone to bare bones, its 3 points more for SW termies that have storm bolters instead of combi bolters, ATSKNF, Counter Attack, LD 9, AND ARE TROOPS CHOICES with Logan.

Cyclone missile launchers with heavy 2 rating.

Assault cannons at same price at DA.

Space Wolve have SEVEN psychic powers to choose from. The last two are amazing, as well as the one that makes all skimmers, jetbikes and deepstrikers move as if in Difficult AND Dangerous terrain...

Njal Stormcaller is essentially a buffed up and SW'ed version of Tigirius. Much tougher, if not as directly meta game enhancing. His storm caller ability alone makes me imagine an all terminator army with him, Logan, and Wolf Guard descending upon the enemy with a terrible vengence....just too cool...

The Trickster, will be famous alone for the fact that GW has finally made a Space Marine that still finds time to hit the sheets with as many shield maidens as he can bed....

Beer and ladies... ahhhhhh, now I remember why I took this handle back on Portent so many years ago!!!!!


The Wolves are back, and I want to know where to line up to start a new Army of Russ...:D

A few quirks though...

Anyone notice that SW Landraiders only carry 10 men, as opposed to 12 men?

I assume this is because SW have the flexibility to be able to include a terminator bodyguard smaller than 5 men for an HQ.

aeoglas
10-09-2009, 09:55
If I ever play a SM army, it would be either BT or SW. Of course I'm an exodite fan, so we have some cavalry of our own, sons of russ. See how you like being on the pointy end of the shock lance, and I will enjoy your look of horror as my bladespinners leap out of the sky ray howdah to unleash hell on Wolf-Wing. That said, you'd be better challengers than DA. ;)

If you want to know what I'm rambling on about, check out my codex:
Aeoglas

Sons of Russ
10-09-2009, 09:59
low model count assualty army with no real dedicated anti-tank?

not very worried about them... they are just daemons with better rules.


Grey Hunters are CHEAPER than standard marines.
They have counter attack.
They have Bolters, Bolt Pistols, AND CCW (Chaos Marines with ATSKNF)
They can take two special weapons for 66% (or less) of the cost of ONE marine. (one of those specials comes free when you have a 10 man squad)


They have some truly amazing psychic powers that really hurt mobilty, for both skimmer heavy and horde heavy armies. Read about the World Wolf power, let its rules sink in, and then understand why anything getting within 24" of your Rune Priests is in deep wolf-doodoo...

"Why hello there, Mr. Initiative 2 Carnifex....."


Dedicated and RELIABLE anti tank? Fair enough, I too have been pondering a cheap solution. Wolf Scouts have the means, but are fragile.

Wolves still get the Drop Pod Assault Rule from the Marine Codex. Meaning at least one Pod will drop first turn.

5 Wolf Guard terminators with 5 combimeltas for under 190 pts. Or drop some thunder hammer storm shield wielder WG Terminators. Yes, their storm shields are 3++

One really nasty surprise is the expensive Mini-Lysander that can THROW his Thunder Hammer 6" in the shooting phase to hit at Str 10 AP1, and then assault with it!

Better yet, drop some Grey hunters with two meltas, with a wolfguard leader with combi melta and add some thunder hammers to the measure...

I dont recommend bikers as the Blood Claws are only BS 3.

IAMNOTHERE
10-09-2009, 10:00
I love terminators, have since I saw them in WD112. If daemons were troops in the choas dex I'd take a Lustwing list. It looks like I can now add to my DW with a Wolfwing, I'm so so happy:)

Apart from that, my Emperors Children will be lashing you closer because in combat we are perfaction! Bring it on space pups!

Badger[Fr]
10-09-2009, 10:06
low model count assualty army with no real dedicated anti-tank?
Are you joking? As if Space Marines ever depended on heavy weapons to deal with enemy armour... They rely instead on Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, MM Dreads, and special weapons in line squads. Guess what? SW have these too.

Dranthar
10-09-2009, 10:17
One way or another, they'll still all go down to cheap-as-chips Dark Lances. :D

Sons of Russ
10-09-2009, 10:26
One way or another, they'll still all go down to cheap-as-chips Dark Lances. :D


Did I mention there is a psychic power that makes all skimmers jetbikes and jump packers treat everything within 2 feet of the rune priest as difficult AND dangerous terrain....

Combine that with Drop Pod Assault, two special weapon packing GH squads...

I have a feeling that DE wont be able to outshoot a well rounded SW army...

***Its official now, BoLS have crowned Grey Hunters as the ultimate Troops choice in WH40k.***:cool:

MistaGav
10-09-2009, 10:44
I personally can't wait to get into a proper Deathwing vs Wolfwing game, should be really interesting to see the outcome.

wolf40k
10-09-2009, 11:00
I'm going to have to head to the local GW and see if they have their preview copy in tomorrow. They just seam to be getting better and better.

the1stpip
10-09-2009, 11:02
I think DE will still own Space Puppies, even with the oldest codex!

Kburn
10-09-2009, 11:13
I actually feel sorry for the DA players, I think GW was a bit too harsh on them...

I was thinking that bringing 3 landraiders might mean an easier time against space wolves, but then, I realised that their long fangs can split-fire, and potentially destroy 5 tanks in a turn.... They're pretty strong in the long range department too....

I can't think of a single thing that would practically disadvantage SW at all

Lamoron
10-09-2009, 11:30
Bah, my guard won't care much... Demolishers, Lascannons and Plasma/Melta was already in my build. I do however (apperantly unlike everyone else) find the idea of Space Marines riding giant wolves, to be incredibly lame.

I'm hoping this will go the way of the guard codex, and everyone will be "amagawd über imba powah!" and then it will turn out to be a fairly balanced codex in the end. Space Marines was, Imperial Guard was, so I'm hoping for a new trend.

Some of the abilities sound very powerfull, but I seem to remember the pricetag on the characters being quite steep? I'm more afraid of the 60+ marines that will be facing me... Think I'll have to include a Colossous or two.

Lord Malorne
10-09-2009, 11:45
Black Templars will continue to beat all placed against them.

Anyway, I don't see all the 'teh awesomz' of the space wolves as some do, once they are subsumed into the current state of things people will adjust.

DaSpaceAsians
10-09-2009, 11:47
Can't wait to see them fight through 150 guardsmen and their tank support.

IAMNOTHERE
10-09-2009, 11:51
I don't care if they're awsome or not, I want a way to play a termies as they should be.

Experienced combat vets that can pick and choose their own kit - an army of individuals!

Hypaspist
10-09-2009, 11:59
I actually feel sorry for the DA players, I think GW was a bit too harsh on them...


Don't give us your pity... just give us your heads! :D

Badger[Fr]
10-09-2009, 12:10
I'm hoping this will go the way of the guard codex, and everyone will be "amagawd über imba powah!" and then it will turn out to be a fairly balanced codex in the end. Space Marines was, Imperial Guard was, so I'm hoping for a new trend.
Except everybody knew that the IG would be a balanced Codex when we learnt the point costs of these oh-so-awesome units, whereas SW are only getting better and better each day.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 12:33
I actually feel sorry for the DA players, I think GW was a bit too harsh on them...

I was thinking that bringing 3 landraiders might mean an easier time against space wolves, but then, I realised that their long fangs can split-fire, and potentially destroy 5 tanks in a turn.... They're pretty strong in the long range department too....

I can't think of a single thing that would practically disadvantage SW at all

Other than -maybe- an Assault Necron army not much. (And then of course we're talking about Necrons.... vs Power Armor in Cc... and that's never a good out come) even then they have Counter attack.

Don't feel sorry for the DA, BA, BT and Smurfs. They just got their newest Patch with the SW dex, as it does everything those other books does, but better.

Imperial Guard would give them a run for their money with the right list. (Might be one of the few times a LR Squadron or TWO would be worth it) Four Executioners with Plas Cannons would be pretty nasty for the SW to deal with. Especially since the IG player if he's smart about his list will still have some banewolves or Devil Dogs in there.

As far as you poor Smurf Guys go (BA, BT, DA and Smbook) going up against Sw I truly feel sorry for you. Because anything you can do the SW do better, period. The only way you are going to beat a SW who is equal to your skill is to use the Sw codex yourself.

Abaddonshand
10-09-2009, 13:04
As far as you poor Smurf Guys go (BA, BT, DA and Smbook) going up against Sw I truly feel sorry for you. Because anything you can do the SW do better, period. The only way you are going to beat a SW who is equal to your skill is to use the Sw codex yourself.

Are you aware that Smurf is the term used to refer to Ultramarines, and does not include other chapters, such as BA, BT and DA? Admittedly, sometimes all of the chapters in the Vanilla Book are sometimes lumped together as Smurfs (and incorrectly I might add - e.g. Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, etc), but you certainly can't use Smurf to refer to divergent chapters.

x-esiv-4c
10-09-2009, 13:09
i'm ready to see a slew of Ultramarine players suddenly adopt the Space-viking codex.

DinoDoc
10-09-2009, 13:24
Are you aware that Smurf is the term used to refer to Ultramarines,It's Micha's Marine hatred leeking out. I'm just shocked he didn't refer to the Wolves as Smurfs as well.

HsojVvad
10-09-2009, 13:24
Wow this sounds like the Horus Heresay all over again. SM vs SM, but here it's SM vs SW. And here I thought we were all brothers.

I will still be using the DA codex, when I finally get my army finished. I don't even own the SM codex, might get the SW codex for the fluff, but will still be using the DA codex.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 13:27
Are you aware that Smurf is the term used to refer to Ultramarines, and does not include other chapters, such as BA, BT and DA? Admittedly, sometimes all of the chapters in the Vanilla Book are sometimes lumped together as Smurfs (and incorrectly I might add - e.g. Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, etc), but you certainly can't use Smurf to refer to divergent chapters.

I don't see why they aren't included. They are just smurfs with a different paint job. They don't actually have enough rules to warrant their own dex. So I call them all Smurfs. DA can be wrapped up with two special characters, BA can be wrapped up with three units (being generous there I might add). Killing one is the same as killing another in the game as well as they all have the same overall model range.

BT are just more expensive Marines (complete with rehashed fluff even!) with an EC.

Thus they are all smurfs.

SW are actually different enough for me to call them their own book. That might be the difference between a Competent Game Designer actually working on a Marine dex versus the idiots that have worked on the other quartet though.

primarch16
10-09-2009, 13:56
As a Templar player I feel the same, its all either filthy xenos scum or more heretics to burn. It gets pretty old actually.

I'm looking forward to my crusader squads taking on a few blood claw packs, damn mutant marines. :angel:

Xelloss
10-09-2009, 14:54
BT are just more expensive Marines (complete with rehashed fluff even!) with an EC.

Not sure if serious... :eyebrows:

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 15:01
I am serious. I've got the dex, and I've read the 4e marine dex more than enough to know that it's true.

They are just more expensive EC marines. "Fearless in assault! they know no fear!" .... and this isn't covered by ATSKNF already? Really?

What makes the Bts "special" is covered on one and maybe one half page of rules, if you ditched the stupid snippet over each of the vows. That's not a codex.

Hypaspist
10-09-2009, 15:53
....What makes the Bts "special" is covered on one and maybe one half page of rules, if you ditched the stupid snippet over each of the vows. That's not a codex.

I did write out a pretty list of a lot of the divergences of several different chapters Micha, but it was an irrelevance because the issue here is twofold.

1) Many of the weapons/abilities/tactics that made the separate marine Codices separate from the Codex Astartes Marines have been slowly incorporated into the Main Codex Astartes book, making the differences less pronounced, which is by no means the fault of the authoring army. (and is irrelevant when you consider point 2)

2) Several small changes in rules a few special characters here and there can make for a *BIG* difference in the way an army *feels* and an army plays.

What you are essentially saying (as an analogy) is that that there is no difference between two sports teams because they both play by the same game, with the same, rules and field the same sorts of positions.

You try telling that to sports fans and see how wrong you are....

It's not the rules *only* that make a codex differenct Micha. Its the whole conceptualisation/backstory/History as well.

</Fluffhammer>

Back on topic.... how many of you DA players re-enact Johnson/Russ with a champion from each army before each game? (It adds so much more to the smack talk, I love it! =D)

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 16:19
I did write out a pretty list of a lot of the divergences of several different chapters Micha, but it was an irrelevance because the issue here is twofold.

1) Many of the weapons/abilities/tactics that made the separate marine Codices separate from the Codex Astartes Marines have been slowly incorporated into the Main Codex Astartes book, making the differences less pronounced, which is by no means the fault of the authoring army. (and is irrelevant when you consider point 2)

2) Several small changes in rules a few special characters here and there can make for a *BIG* difference in the way an army *feels* and an army plays.

What you are essentially saying (as an analogy) is that that there is no difference between two sports teams because they both play by the same game, with the same, rules and field the same sorts of positions.

You try telling that to sports fans and see how wrong you are....

It's not the rules *only* that make a codex differenct Micha. Its the whole conceptualisation/backstory/History as well.

</Fluffhammer>

Back on topic.... how many of you DA players re-enact Johnson/Russ with a champion from each army before each game? (It adds so much more to the smack talk, I love it! =D)

Funny, Catachan and Cadia are in the same Codex.

That Biel-Tan, and Uthwe are in the same Codex

That Farsight, and the Normal Tau are in the same codex.

They are the same if any of those I listed are covered in the same book. Infact there are LESS differences in playstyle and what units would be taken, (and special rules) with any Given Marine book (Sw aside) than there are between what I just listed out.

Hypaspist
10-09-2009, 16:43
Valid points, to an extent. I would disagree that Farsight is as integral to the background story of the Warhammer 40000 world as, say, 1 of the first founding chapters of space marines is. The Eldar Codex is one of the more elegant constructions in that they have artuflly created a codex that *Can* represent different factions within a race ably and succinctly without the need to resort to different army books, although I would also argue that the marine chapters represented by a codex have more literature apportioned to them in general than the craftworld eldar. (See also: Codex Orks).

I wasn't refuting that other codices don't have indivdual factions that could be represented by a codex (and for literature, the guard and chaos marines are especially well supported here), but rather that you were incorrect to imply that there were *no differences that warrant a different codex*

Space Marines, Chaos and loyalist, (and certainly the Imperial forces) are effectively the tag line by which Warhammer 40k (tabletop) exists, so love them or hate them, they are likely to get more codex love than any of the other armies, that doesn't mean there aren't justifications for other armies, but in terms of rationalising armies down they have clearly taken an historical (& ongoing) business decision to ensure marines are well supported. You may not like it, but there *are* significant enough differences to warrant the armies.

Now clearly I am not going to convince you, and the above is my opinion with some fact sprinkled in (ie literature on space marines vs literature on, say, Eldar) but to sweepingly state they are all the same does not really do justice to the world GW have created. whether we as individuals like it or not, is pobably more the point. (as you have guessed I actually quite do, and I like beating up those puppies just as much as I like beating up xenos because of the fluff that exists!)
:)

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 18:10
i'm ready to see a slew of Ultramarine players suddenly adopt the Space-viking codex.

And you can't blame them!

The only unit in the whole book SW's might be jealous of is Sternguard and even then they have cheap as chips Wolf Guard who are Vanguard in gear and stats with CA and Acute senses AND are 7 points cheaper per guy. It is truly mind boggling what is going on here. The basic grey hunter squad is basically everything people were hoping from a Tac squad. It does everything. If Tacs had the option for 2 special weapons that is one thing but Counter attack, CCW+BP, 2 special weapons, All for being CHEAPER base price than a normal marine.

The other thing that truly bothers me is the storm psychic power. What a buff to CC Wolves as that provides fantastic protection for the entire army against their primary weakness, Shooting.

I was looking into salamanders but as someone in the wolf thread said: "This edition is like any other, Go non codex marine or go home."

If I ever do a marine army, it looks like I will be following that advice.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 18:17
And you can't blame them!

The only unit in the whole book SW's might be jealous of is Sternguard and even then they have cheap as chips Wolf Guard who are Vanguard in gear and stats with CA and Acute senses AND are 7 points cheaper per guy. It is truly mind boggling what is going on here. The basic grey hunter squad is basically everything people were hoping from a Tac squad. It does everything. If Tacs had the option for 2 special weapons that is one thing but Counter attack, CCW+BP, 2 special weapons, All for being CHEAPER base price than a normal marine.

The other thing that truly bothers me is the storm psychic power. What a buff to CC Wolves as that provides fantastic protection for the entire army against their primary weakness, Shooting.

I was looking into salamanders but as someone in the wolf thread said: "This edition is like any other, Go non codex marine or go home."

If I ever do a marine army, it looks like I will be following that advice.

It's what happens when Phil Kelly makes a Dex. His dexes tend to run on the upper Strata of the power curve, while also being incredibly versatile. The SW codex is what SM should have been from the start. None of this "Well marines are losing! we need yet another poorly written and ill thought out codex to patch them until the next E!"

I don't blame the Marine Players for switching Codexes en masse really. (because you know it's coming)

Hypaspist: there are other ways you can support an army that don't involve Pushing Your Other Money Makers Into a Ditch.(and the other armies do make cash. They wouldn't be being sold otherwise) Such as making a damn book worth mentioning for them from the word Go rather than throwing **** at a wall and hoping something sticks over and over again.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 18:22
It's what happens when Phil Kelly makes a Dex. His dexes tend to run on the upper Strata of the power curve, while also being incredibly versatile. The SW codex is what SM should have been from the start. None of this "Well marines are losing! we need yet another poorly written and ill thought out codex to patch them until the next E!"

I don't blame the Marine Players for switching Codexes en masse really. (because you know it's coming)

I personally feel bad as I like Salamanders look and I adore the new Vulkan mini (painted and on my shelf of my Dorm room). But other than Sternguard and perhaps cheaper TH/SS Termies, I gain nothing going with the normal codex. Thankfully Salamanders can be represented by the new SW codex quite easily as other than the clear wolf things (Wulfen, Thunderwolf cav and such) there isn't much to claim that my army ISN'T Salamanders.

I am thinking of using Vulkan as Logan Grimnar calling the Salamanders elites to the field. It feels wrong to jump on the bandwagon but I don't like being so obviously hampered either.

x-esiv-4c
10-09-2009, 18:24
I'm not terribly bothered. As buffed as they are, a crap player is a crap player.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 18:30
I'm not terribly bothered. As buffed as they are, a crap player is a crap player.

While that is true, Look at orks. Doesn't take a genius to throw 100+ boyz at you and win.

Books are based against one another. I have a friend who plays Tau, a less than powerful army atm but he has been to ard boyz and done well. He gets a lot of mileage out of the army. That said, it is clear when pitted against other books the disadvantages become apparent.

I admit to being competitive and dislike playing a clearly inferior army when it can easily be represented by something else. That isn't to say I jump on the most powerful books as they come out, otherwise I would have orks. What I mean is that I can make my army using the wolf codex and lose nothing visually but gain the rules.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 18:31
I personally feel bad as I like Salamanders look and I adore the new Vulkan mini (painted and on my shelf of my Dorm room). But other than Sternguard and perhaps cheaper TH/SS Termies, I gain nothing going with the normal codex. Thankfully Salamanders can be represented by the new SW codex quite easily as other than the clear wolf things (Wulfen, Thunderwolf cav and such) there isn't much to claim that my army ISN'T Salamanders.

I am thinking of using Vulkan as Logan Grimnar calling the Salamanders elites to the field. It feels wrong to jump on the bandwagon but I don't like being so obviously hampered either.

You know you don't even have to avoid the Wolf stuff.... change out the wolf pelts for Salamander skins, and the wolves for Tamed Salamanders and there you go. I know they don't have a history of taming them, but instead killing them.. but it would be AWESOME you have to admit :evilgrin:

It's what Gw makes marine dexes for honestly. Hopefully this will be the last one, (as it is easily by far the most flexible in the Marines it can represent, and easily the most powerful. I don't think anyone else is going to do better if they tried) until the next edition. Maybe that's also why they got Phil Kelly to do the dex. One Quality Dex, to show the other idiots how to properly do SM.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 18:33
You know you don't even have to avoid the Wolf stuff.... change out the wolf pelts for Salamander skins, and the wolves for Tamed Salamanders and there you go. I know they don't have a history of taming them, but instead killing them.. but it would be AWESOME you have to admit :evilgrin:

It's what Gw makes marine dexes for honestly. Hopefully this will be the last one, (as it is easily by far the most flexible in the Marines it can represent, and easily the most powerful. I don't think anyone else is going to do better if they tried) until the next edition. Maybe that's also why they got Phil Kelly to do the dex. One Quality Dex, to show the other idiots how to properly do SM.

*looks at dark elf cold one riders and a light bulb goes off*
OMG! A reason to finally get them!

I can get sea dragon cloaks from Thewarstore, There are possibilities here my friend. Possibly heretical possibilities, but possibilities.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 18:55
*looks at dark elf cold one riders and a light bulb goes off*
OMG! A reason to finally get them!

I can get sea dragon cloaks from Thewarstore, There are possibilities here my friend. Possibly heretical possibilities, but possibilities.

Hey, my formerly using BT homebrew marines are moving over to SW. Because Sagas fit (better than the Vows), and I always wanted a Dreadnought Hq....

Is it heretical when the Emperor decrees it? :D

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 19:01
Hey, my formerly using BT homebrew marines are moving over to SW. Because Sagas fit (better than the Vows), and I always wanted a Dreadnought Hq....

Is it heretical when the Emperor decrees it? :D

Your right, a good marine would never defy the Emperor.

Time to get my Wol....I mean Salamander on. :D

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 19:25
This is shaping up to be quite a dex... My question is does anyone know if they still have combat tactics? To my knowledge it was replaced by counter attack and acute senses? This doesn't seem like a fair trade to justify the point decrease. Baring rare exceptions, I can't see a SW player wanting to fall back. I can already see the lists forming in peoples minds now. Can you imagine a SW termi list using DP assault? That just sounds broken as hell lol. Dropping 3 - 4 pods of termis on ur door with Counter attack and combi meltas. Does anyone know if you can mix and match squads with CCW and normal weapons? Id imagine you will see alot of drop pod termi lists that have 1 or 2 members with TH and SS for wound allocation on the turn they drop in.. before they go to town on you.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 19:30
This is shaping up to be quite a dex... My question is does anyone know if they still have combat tactics? To my knowledge it was replaced by counter attack and acute senses? This doesn't seem like a fair trade to justify the point decrease. Baring rare exceptions, I can't see a SW player wanting to fall back. I can already see the lists forming in peoples minds now. Can you imagine a SW termi list using DP assault? That just sounds broken as hell lol. Dropping 3 - 4 pods of termis on ur door with Counter attack and combi meltas. Does anyone know if you can mix and match squads with CCW and normal weapons? Id imagine you will see alot of drop pod termi lists that have 1 or 2 members with TH and SS for wound allocation on the turn they drop in.. before they go to town on you.

All that is possible I believe. WG are like Vanguard as you can kit them out as you like. you can mix Terminator and power armor from what I have read. No combat tactics but as you point out, it isn't fair. Grey Hunters are vastly better than tactical, they just are.

I wouldn't be too scared of DP lists with terminators as it still costs a great deal to run such a list and Drop pods lists suffer sometimes from bad reserve rolls or the opponent making it hard to deploy (like eldar reserve lists). Though the potential is there.

I also think that the wound allocation for TH/SS isn't so bad, as most people (at least the ones I play against) go for mass wounds anymore than low AP with shooting. 5th ed saw the increase of high Ap shooting as 4+ cover is standard and low ap guns are usually very expensive. So it became more cost effective to go for lots of shots, but I am sure you probably knew that already.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 19:31
Heh, oh yes the SW will be nasty indeed.

I don't think they have CT

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 19:35
Yeah I was just thinking in a drop pod list putting two TH and SS in each squad with a few combi meltas would give you a very survivable force after that initial wave of plasma comes at you. With so many on the field I cant imagine the enemy having that much ap 1 and 2 weapons. (I play guard which can def be the exception ;) ). I just forsee the DP lists taken to a whole new level with the wolves. Especially with the combi melta termi spam.

The Highlander
10-09-2009, 20:07
I like space wolves, they are the only space marines who actually like to have some fun.

On the other hand, they are still space marines and therefore don’t stand a chance. My highlanders have enough firepower to blow them back to Fenris and if that fails, I have the Brigadier!

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:38
I like space wolves, they are the only space marines who actually like to have some fun.

On the other hand, they are still space marines and therefore don’t stand a chance. My highlanders have enough firepower to blow them back to Fenris and if that fails, I have the Brigadier!

Thats the Spirit! Who needs power armor when you have enough tanks to shake the ground?

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:42
Or enough artillery to lower the entire countryside by a foot or more =P

Freakiq
10-09-2009, 20:55
Time to invest in a Vindicator or two then...

DuskRaider
10-09-2009, 21:00
Jeez, I guess it's time to stop playing chaos and move over to Space Wolves now...

HAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, right. My Berserkers will still eat those Space Puppies for breakfast. Really... Yeah, they have a nasty codex (from what we've heard and some have seen), and sure they're just as good as VANILLA Chaos Troops... But the Cult Troops are still better. I'm not really concerned about this new batch of Loyalist scum, truthfully.

Foulacy
10-09-2009, 21:44
One thing I don't like is players who blatantly will be playing Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard e.t.c. but will be using the SW Codex. Talk about loyalty lol.

Souleater
10-09-2009, 21:45
You know you don't even have to avoid the Wolf stuff.... change out the wolf pelts for Salamander skins, and the wolves for Tamed Salamanders and there you go. I know they don't have a history of taming them, but instead killing them.. but it would be AWESOME you have to admit :evilgrin:


Heh, months ago I was looking at High Elf White Lions and thinking 'Hmm...can I use the SW dex to make Space Lions?'

it is crazy, really. Back in RT your SM all used the same list you just had different colours and maybe used more of X troops than Y to represent the different chapters.

After years of faffing around with codexes for several chapters GW have launched the most non-codex chapter of all...and it may become the default Space Marine Codex. Oh the bitter, bitter irony.


One thing I don't like is players who blatantly will be playing Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard e.t.c. but will be using the SW Codex. Talk about loyalty lol.

Loyaltysmoyalty. In my time as a Blood Angel player I've been...pretty much Codex bar some guys with two wounds, insane Rhino-Rushers who can't stop themselves rushing at the enemy and now a pamphlet with little flexibility. If GW can stick to what my Blood Angels are supposed to be why should I? ;)

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 21:49
One thing I don't like is players who blatantly will be playing Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard e.t.c. but will be using the SW Codex. Talk about loyalty lol.

I don't have any loyalty yet :p

Space marine players are the only ones with this choice. You really don't see any other army players having this issue.

Jayden63
10-09-2009, 22:03
I look at the SW codex in the context of how it will beat my current armies vs the other marine dexs.

Tau - No change. The wolves will kick our ass just as easily as BA/DA/SM. The wolves force might be a smidge smaller body count wise, but they still hit just as hard and are just as hard to kill.

Ork - Unlike the other SM lists where orks can put up a good fight, the wolves will slaughter us. The orks only hope is to win a shooting match. Assaulting against the Wolves is pointless. In HTH it will be no contests, even if the orks get the charge, each SW model will have a minimum of 2 attacks with a potential 3 because of counter charge. They will just chew us up and spit them out.

Chaos - No real change since Chaos can go both assaulty and/or shooty. I see no real advantages that the wolves will have over any other SM list.

So yeah, I see no reason why other SM armies will deviate from their own lists to wolves when facing the above armies. The only edge goes against Orks, but orks have always been beatable.

TrojanWolf
10-09-2009, 22:21
The only breed of marine that I would ever, even possibly think about considering to maybe collect a small force of. As it stands, I have a deep rooted loathing of anything wearing power armour and would much, much rather launch a Waaagh! or a slave raid on those damn, dirty apes! (Mon Keigh sounds suspiciously like another "m" word that could go there)

If you can get me over my hatred of that damned molten cheese cannon the space marines have, you might possibly have another member of the Great Companies.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 22:34
I look at the SW codex in the context of how it will beat my current armies vs the other marine dexs.

Tau - No change. The wolves will kick our ass just as easily as BA/DA/SM. The wolves force might be a smidge smaller body count wise, but they still hit just as hard and are just as hard to kill.

Ork - Unlike the other SM lists where orks can put up a good fight, the wolves will slaughter us. The orks only hope is to win a shooting match. Assaulting against the Wolves is pointless. In HTH it will be no contests, even if the orks get the charge, each SW model will have a minimum of 2 attacks with a potential 3 because of counter charge. They will just chew us up and spit them out.

Chaos - No real change since Chaos can go both assaulty and/or shooty. I see no real advantages that the wolves will have over any other SM list.

So yeah, I see no reason why other SM armies will deviate from their own lists to wolves when facing the above armies. The only edge goes against Orks, but orks have always been beatable.

Actually, it is quite different. First off wolves aren't smaller. They can field MORE power armor than normal marines as they are slightly cheaper. Also it will take less marines over normal to win in assault.

Chaos is quite different I would imagine. While you can go either or, so can they. Over vanilla marines you had the advantage in CC even base, not anymore. You now need a mark to get the upper hand.

Also, you aren't looking at all the options. Rune Priests allow them to take on shooty lists by dramatically reducing the power of shooting. They also have a very simple and easy way to work against psychic powers.

Wolves are in a whole new league.

Israfael
10-09-2009, 22:55
My problem is - where is the catch?..

They are better than any loyalist marine list in every way, their psychic powers (for a planet that HATES psykers oddly enough) are absurdly powerful, they can field any play-style or troops who have BETTER gear yet somehow cost LESS than their equivalents - and the heroes have absurd stat lines or special abilities / gear.. so where is the "weakness" we were told they'd have to balance them?

Space Wolves bias at GW makes me vomit a little in my mouth.

Ironfather0
10-09-2009, 23:38
One thing I don't like is players who blatantly will be playing Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard e.t.c. but will be using the SW Codex. Talk about loyalty lol.

ummmm...it can actually represent iron hand real well, HQ dreads and terminator sgts :D.

oh and to stay on topic, really all this new book means is more food for my nids :D

AngryAngel
11-09-2009, 01:00
There is no counter balance to them really. There is no catch to be found. It doesn't matter just enjoy the army you own and nothing will get you down. Its pointless to be jealous of them if you play a diffrent marines chapter. I just find it truely funny that when DA were getting smacked around people were told to suck it up all would come into line, then it didn't and those same people don't say crap now.

I'll keep playing my DA marines and I'll still win. It just makes me shake my head to see the wolves book released. Won't change how I play or what I play. Take heart everyone it'll be ok.

Lusall
11-09-2009, 06:49
Holy ball sacks. I totally didn't expect this thread to get so big.

But maybe that's the point Micha (or Mica, can't remember how you spell it.)
The Dark Angels should get a codex as interesting as the Space Wolves. Same with Blood Angels and Black Temps. Or...put them all in the same f-n codex and do what the current SM codex does. (If you take this character your army does this.)

As for the Eldar...I liked the old craftworld codex. I could dig another one, or make the current Eldar dex more versitle.

And as for guard...I -liked- the doctrine system. (And I like the current Guard dex too...)

So...I guess what I'm saying is...make it so that I can do more with my codex you ******s!

On that note...I have the Deathwing and half the Ravenwing. (And I mean I have THE DEATHWING. 100+ termis.) I play this game to have fun and use it as an outlet for my imagination. So f-k that Space wolf dex and that Space Marine dex...I'll win with my Dark Angels/Deathwing/Ravenwing any day. :evilgrin:

AlmightyNocturnus
11-09-2009, 10:15
As with every new codex, people report on the new flashy stuff...and everyone overreacts. There are weaknesses in there too. I can already see some of them. And after getting a few games in, the ways to skin the wolf will become even more apparent.

I also applaud the OP and say bring The Wolf on. I`ll meet you with Daemon, Blood Angel, or Night Lord! (but probably Daemons first, since I`m trying to get in a lot of practice games before WWW)

Almighty Nocturnus

Warpcrafter
11-09-2009, 10:16
I've stomped Deathwing with the Black Legion, now I get to do the same with the Space Wolves. Arooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Sons of Russ
11-09-2009, 10:35
My problem is - where is the catch?..

They are better than any loyalist marine list in every way, their psychic powers (for a planet that HATES psykers oddly enough) are absurdly powerful, they can field any play-style or troops who have BETTER gear yet somehow cost LESS than their equivalents - and the heroes have absurd stat lines or special abilities / gear.. so where is the "weakness" we were told they'd have to balance them?

Space Wolves bias at GW makes me vomit a little in my mouth.

The weakness is the temptation to load up on all the shiny toys, leaving you severely outnumbered and outgunned.

I suspect the no frills mass Grey Hunter Mech / DP twin melta gun build will become a tourny staple in the coming months...

Souleater
11-09-2009, 10:46
That's not much of a catch then.

I've also read that the only downside to Sagas, besides their cost is that a 'proper' SW player would be ashamed not to meet them.

That wont' mean much to most of the people playing SWs by the sound of it. (In fact it makes we wonder if the 'fluff consequences is even true.)

EDIT: I think part of the hype is people ignoring or missing the trade-offs. When more of us have the book I assume that thinks will look more balanced.

Aries_37
11-09-2009, 12:03
How can you guys play GW games all this time and not be used to codex creep yet? :P

GW are a business, they make money by breaking the game every 5 months.

Maw of the World Wolf and grey hunters seem to be the most broken things in the codex. But there's nothing overall which are as stupid as some of the stuff in the guard codex, probably because there are fewer and less expensive model kits to sell.

Treadhead_1st
11-09-2009, 12:19
I'm not too worried.

I look at the rumours and just think "Yeah, the troops are better and are slightly cheaper, but the Characters cost stupid amounts and there's a reduced availability of Invul. saves compared to Codex Marines.

A Vindicator will still stop Bloodclaws dead. A Captain with Lightning Claws should make a mess of Grey Hunters (as long as he has back-up). Terminators will be rediculously expensive, though good - bait for any AP2 weapons you have - likewise for Bjorn, he may be tough but enough Melta weapons will stop him.

I play a brutally short-ranged Salamander army (only one TL-HB for my weapons with a range over 24") and I am really, really looking forwards to fighting these Pups - it's going to be a bloodbath and incredibly fun either way!

The only thing that makes me balk at the rumours for, and I guess I have to wait-and-see the book to confirm, is the brutality of the SW Psykers - removing everything within 24" on an I-check? Holy hell, I want some of that for my force - and I can't see how it would be balanced (it's a worse version of Fear of the Darkness, which GW explicitly stated to want to get rid of as it was game-breaking).

But for the most part these are expensive Characters supporting large 3+ Save squads - albeit good squads - so they die just like any other Marine.

Karhedron
11-09-2009, 14:21
There is no counter balance to them really. There is no catch to be found.
No heavy weapons in your tactical squads and no combat squads spring to mind. Not major downsides but you could quickly find yourself short of scoring units in objective-based games.

Wolf priests do sound a bit OTT on the face of it (esp JotWW ). How many armies can field effective anti-psyker gear? Eldar, other Marines, Nids and some flavours of Chaos would probably be OK. For other armies I guess the you will just have to kill them quickly (same as any other enemy unit that poses a higher-than-average threat to your army).

Emeraldw
11-09-2009, 14:32
No heavy weapons in your tactical squads and no combat squads spring to mind. Not major downsides but you could quickly find yourself short of scoring units in objective-based games.

Wolf priests do sound a bit OTT on the face of it (esp JotWW ). How many armies can field effective anti-psyker gear? Eldar, other Marines, Nids and some flavours of Chaos would probably be OK. For other armies I guess the you will just have to kill them quickly (same as any other enemy unit that poses a higher-than-average threat to your army).

Yeah, those are minor drawbacks :P

I personally am a big fan of that -1 BS storm, that makes one of the big weaknesses to the army go down and Jaws, while useful, I don't think is as bad as it sounds as other than Carnifexs, the Initative on MC's isn't that low if the -1 bonus is true, then it will be tough to even get Wraithlords with it that are I4. Though someone reported it really was a penalty, in which case, uh oh.

Zingbaby
16-09-2009, 06:16
This thread rules... yah know sometimes GW pushes it a little, but more or less their rules always end up working out. In some case a new tact and different strategies may need to evolve, but I can honestly say I've never felt cheated (well excluding the Blastscape).

40k is a damned good game... I can't wait to take on these Space Wolves or whatever comes out next - I'm going to have fun regardless of the outcome - because I'm not a whiny bitch.

AlmightyNocturnus
16-09-2009, 08:07
Perhaps not being able to combat squad WILL be a big deal. Assuming most people take 3-4 scoring units in a 1500 point army...what`s that going to cost the Space Wolves point-wise. Half of their force? They might look really killy, but they might not have what it takes to win games...or they might have to sacrifice a lot of killyness to have a shot at winning games. That`s something to keep in mind. (But honestly, I haven`t looked at the codex yet or played any games against the new Wolves)

Almighty Nocturnus