PDA

View Full Version : Using Space Wolves for Codex Marines



Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 19:44
Hello everyone, this thread is for the thoughts many marine players probably have on their minds, should I use the Space Wolf codex to represent my marines?

To me this is important for two primary reasons, one is that I want to expand into a new army and I adored Salamanders. I currently only have a Librarian and vulkan but when I look at Space Wolves I see a better Codex and lose very very little visually as the book does seem to represent other marines well with a little work.

The other reason for the thread is boredom. I am stuck in the commons of my university because I kicked out of my room for maintenance work on the Air conditioner. So the reason for this is to alleviate that and get opinions on something I have been thinking of.

Finally, this was brought up in the other threads but no thread dedicated to discussing it. The one is about sticking to your codex but it isn't so simple. Death Wing players are surely considering this as while their codex is still good, switching to Space wolves will unlikely hurt them and gain a great deal.

So what say you marine players? I have a very hard time justifying C:SM over C:SW as the positives for SW's are just so numerous.

If it is too similar I will close it with my apologies.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 19:54
To me there's no contest. SW as I mentioned before really does seem like SM done right and how they should have been from the start. No need for Bland poorly thought out Subdexes, that act as "patches" which inevitably fail.

Just one very well designed and laid out book that can field a dizzying array of lists. Much like the Eldar Codex, made Codex Crapworld Eldar and it's ilk take a Dirt Nap, I hope this codex does too.

I think it proves once and for all you really can do pretty much all of the released Marine lists in one well constructed book.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 19:58
I think you will see tons of DIY chapters come from this book. I personally would love to make a Spartan/Roman themed marine army from them..

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:04
I think you will see tons of DIY chapters come from this book. I personally would love to make a Spartan/Roman themed marine army from them..

Sounds interesting!

As I said in the other thread, some ideas for this book come out. I have always enjoyed the Dark Elf Cold one mini's but never had a reason to get them. Thunder Wolf Cav gives me an idea.

I like Salamanders and while it isn't in their fluff, it might not be too much of a stretch to have Salamander Cav :D It is afterall, just as crazy as wolf cav.

Also the book isn't like a potential Blood Angel dex where CC is the end all, be all. Space Wolves appear to be simply flexible and only suffer a minor overall loss to shooting but gain other advantages. Grey hunters being the epitome of this with Bolters, CCW+BP and have Special weapons.

I do love the option for 4 HQ's as well as I feel like Marines of all flavors should have a great deal of heroes to them.

genestealer_baldric
10-09-2009, 20:05
this just seems like oooo they have shinner stuff than me iam using that 1.

but if thats what you whant to do then crack away man

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:10
this just seems like oooo they have shinner stuff than me iam using that 1.

but if thats what you whant to do then crack away man

Part of me wants to say "nuh uh!" but I know better.

Your right, that is very clearly what I am asking though I don't think it is as much a bad thing as you imply.

Nobody likes being "handicapped" and when I look at the SW codex I see not just "shiner toys" but also potential. There are options there that are so much better than normal marines and changing doesn't really hurt you at all.

I am competitive I admit but I don't jump on all bandwagons as they come out or I would have orks and chaos right now. But I was looking into Salamanders and here comes a new book that can do salamanders just as well as C:SM if not better. Even if I don't do it, it is still worth asking the question.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 20:12
this just seems like oooo they have shinner stuff than me iam using that 1.

but if thats what you whant to do then crack away man

Damn straight it is. But frankly it's a better designed codex than the Smurf book. less Herohammerd, more Army hammer based, and more flexible.

Also maybe enough people switch to SW, Gw will get the message and start putting more effort into their Marine releases rather than relying on Patches.

Sw isn't a Patch... it's a total rebuild of the Space Marine.

Hicks
10-09-2009, 20:15
Well codex Space Wolves appears to be better than the other marine codices in every way. Units are stronger and cheaper at the same time, so if you're in the game to win (wich is a valid position) there is no reason to handicap yourself with a poor codex.

I'm not too sure about using it for representing Salamanders as a hobbyist and GW enthousiast though. The Sallies already have rules made out for them and this is how GW decided they should (read must) be represented. If you choose to use the Space Wolf codex that kinda means your going from wanting to win, to absolutely not wanting to lose at all cost. There is no denying it, you don't want to switch for fluff reasons, it's purely to have a better chance a wining and for that you're willing to disregard the fluff, the core, of what a Sallies army is.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:18
When you look at the two major groups of wargamers, the Fluffy players vs the competitive players certainly this will be logical to the comp players and beardy to the fluffy players. But I'd assume Emeraldw understands this. I personally try and play a mix between the two, that's why I think you may see alot of DIY chapters. One sometimes competitive players dont enjoy the painting aspect as much, and therefore can create a force that is somewhat easier to paint than SWs and still benefit from the rules. Also anyone who is very fluffy can have a field day with "count as units" seeing as there are so many flexible options for this book. Like it was pointed out they even have wolf packs which can easily be made into any "Predator" packs... Gaints cats, Lizards, or Squirrels.

What I mentioned in the other thread was the possibility of mixing TH and SS into units of GHs. If regular marines can have TH and SS that would be a cool mix. Take half the squad with TH and SS to act as the phalanx, and then the other half with close range killy death weapons before they crashed home to obliterate people. I dont know however if they GH squads can take TH and SS without taking terminator armor. If so this themed army would be up in smoke. Take Logan as your HQ and you have an entire army you could base around a shield wall! neato!

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 20:20
no, just no.

i hate when people do this!:mad: a new codex comes out which is better than theirs and they decide to use that to gain an advantage. if anyone at my club does this i will refuse to play them, the only exceptions being if the chapter is so like the space wolves they may as well be. or they are a successor chapter (which to my knowledge there was only one.)

what is wrong with the marine codex? its hardly under powered, from what i have seen the space wolves codex won't be much more powerful than the vanilla codex, so what if we get space wolves riding wolves? i for one will not be using them because i think it is ridiculous and an absolute **** take IMO, oh and terminators as troops? correct me if I'm wrong but we just stole that from the DA codex? use that one if that's what you want. (oh wait that's an OLD codex you couldn't possibly do that!)

anyway i think i have made my point, rant over.

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 20:20
Well codex Space Wolves appears to be better than the other marine codices in every way. Units are stronger and cheaper at the same time, so if you're in the game to win (wich is a valid position) there is no reason to handicap yourself with a poor codex.

I'm not too sure about using it for representing Salamanders as a hobbyist and GW enthousiast though. The Sallies already have rules made out for them and this is how GW decided they should (read must) be represented. If you choose to use the Space Wolf codex that kinda means your going from wanting to win, to absolutely not wanting to lose at all cost. There is no denying it, you don't want to switch for fluff reasons, it's purely to have a better chance a wining and for that you're willing to disregard the fluff, the core, of what a Sallies army is.

I wouldn't be so sure of that actually. What makes an army? Really? To me what makes an army is the spirit in how it's converted and loved on the hobbyist level. As long as it has a rules package which fits the fluff and not some Cookie Cutter then go for it.

If you look at what the Sw offer, you'd find that in many cases the Marines of another color very well fit within the SW fold. The only thing of course saying otherwise is Gw saying "But really they needz seperate bookz!". Because for the most part they frankly are too lazy to release a good Solid Product, and would rather waste MORE EFFORT later, by releasing equally crappy patches.

Fluffwise, you can justify anything. It's alot harder to have an army that actually works Rules Wise. From a conversion opportunity I think the SW offer far more in rewards to the player than the Smurf dex does as well. (or any of the other marine books)

Manders riding Salamanders IMO is so cool for example to hell with the Lame Gw Fluff.

StormWulfen: actually the gap between Smurf and SW is very large. Not quite as large as Necron to 5e army large, but it is a very large gulf indeed. Literally anything Smurf offers SW has, and ONE UPs. It's no big secret at this point that the marines aren't quite as strong as they could be. (they are only mid pack because there's so many other Not Yet 5e armies out there). Out of all the 5e armies short of DA , Smurf is easily the weakest. And not even by a little margin. The Sw seems aimed at putting Loyalist Power Armor, on the power curve maybe just ahead rather than sorely behind and almost on the 4e and 3e level.

Especially since the last smurf book was so badly written that frankly apparently you couldn't really be Salamander or Insert Chapter here, without the Special Character (because the army is so undergunned that you practically NEED the special character to stand up to other 5e armies, while being equally bland)

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:21
Well codex Space Wolves appears to be better than the other marine codices in every way. Units are stronger and cheaper at the same time, so if you're in the game to win (wich is a valid position) there is no reason to handicap yourself with a poor codex.

I'm not too sure about using it for representing Salamanders as a hobbyist and GW enthousiast though. The Sallies already have rules made out for them and this is how GW decided they should (read must) be represented. If you choose to use the Space Wolf codex that kinda means your going from wanting to win, to absolutely not wanting to lose at all cost. There is no denying it, you don't want to switch for fluff reasons, it's purely to have a better chance a wining and for that you're willing to disregard the fluff, the core, of what a Sallies army is.

I don't think you purely go against the fluff as organization wise, they are largely codex and if you can do smurfs with C:SW then you can do salamanders. Now if your referring to that older sally list, which I don't even know where you find it, then thats another story.

Your right, it is partly for better stuff but as I said, you aren't losing anything going to C:SW over C:SM for a better chance at winning. Plus, options are there just aren't elsewhere. It is C:SM mark II in some ways.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:24
oh and terminators as troops? correct me if I'm wrong but we just stole that from the DA codex? use that one if that's what you want. (oh wait that's an OLD codex you couldn't possibly do that!)


Yes it is, I totally agree with you, but as it stands GW figured that space wolves could do it.. and apparently do it better as their GH are cheaper than Deathwing, and come with counter attack, acute senses, and the ability to mix and match TONS of equipment. As well as coming down in drop pods.. much more reliable than DS in my opinion.

Because of this you WILL see people playing "Count as" armies for SW. Like I said before, people will see it as beardy, but to a comp player its logical not beardy. I've played for the past 6 - 7 years where the fluffy player is just out populated by the comp player. This is just the state of the game for some people unfortunately.

Vaktathi
10-09-2009, 20:25
Well codex Space Wolves appears to be better than the other marine codices in every way. Units are stronger and cheaper at the same time, so if you're in the game to win (wich is a valid position) there is no reason to handicap yourself with a poor codex. This.

It really does appear that, as long as one avoids excessive tooled out wolfguard and thunderwolf cavalry and the like, you won't have any fewer models than any other SM army, your basic troops will be far better, and you'll still be able to take all the normal basic SM vehicles, so unless you are relying on Vulkan or something for an army build, you can pretty much make the same army with the SW codex (for the most part) but have it be much more capable in CC and just as capable at range.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:28
I myself would probably fit into the "comp" more than fluffy as I believe fluff is so flexible you can justify about anything. Further, I enjoy options in my lists and I feel this one has more. If what I wanted could only be done by one Codex then i would, for example if i wanted Tau, I would use Codex: Tau. In this case a "Marine is a Marine" afterall.

Plus, as Micha Said, Salamander cav? Heck yeah!

Sometimes cool overwrites comp or fluff.

Edit:@Vaktathi: Pretty much my thoughts. The only loss I saw from the switch in regards to shooting is the loss of Sternguard which I believe are one of the shining stars of C:SM but for what you get all across the list in improved CC and fun options, it is hard to really feel the loss strongly.

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 20:31
Because of this you WILL see people playing "Count as" armies for SW. Like I said before, people will see it as beardy, but to a comp player its logical not beardy. I've played for the past 6 - 7 years where the fluffy player is just out populated by the comp player. This is just the state of the game for some people unfortunately.

i never said i wouldn't see them, just that i wont play them;)
and i thank you, you have reminded me why i don't enter tourneys, because if i did i would HAVE to play these "space wolves but different" lists.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:32
I agree Emeraldw. When I see an amazingly converted army that is beautifully painted but uses another armies rules I say rock on, that's awesome. I have a problem when someone is simply choosing to use a list because its "better". But like I said being situated in a competitive area, I have to take the good with the bad, and as such have come to accept those types of players. (It makes it all the better when you spank them and send them home to mama!) ;)

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:32
i never said i wouldn't see them, just that i wont play them;)
and i thank you, you have reminded me why i don't enter tourneys, because if i did i would HAVE to play these "space wolves but different" lists.

haha I use it to remind myself everyday why I don't play in tournies ;)

Captain Micha
10-09-2009, 20:33
i never said i wouldn't see them, just that i wont play them;)
and i thank you, you have reminded me why i don't enter tourneys, because if i did i would HAVE to play these "space wolves but different" lists.

Do you say that about every IG army too? :p

Fun Fact: Just because all Power Armor Loyalist (SOB dont' exist!) use one codex, doesn't mean each list is going to play the same. Just like the Eldar, Ig, etc. You CAN have a wide variety in a Codex if it's designed well enough.

I used to think it was Marine player's fault that they thought they needed a codex for every day of the week. SW taught me one thing already, it's not your fault.

It's Gw's for releasing such shoddy work and forcing you to have to buy multiple books to have variety with ONE model range.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:35
I agree Emeraldw. When I see an amazingly converted army that is beautifully painted but uses another armies rules I say rock on, that's awesome. I have a problem when someone is simply choosing to use a list because its "better". But like I said being situated in a competitive area, I have to take the good with the bad, and as such have come to accept those types of players. (It makes it all the better when you spank them and send them home to mama!) ;)

I say bring it on! :D

A well painted and thoughtful army can get away with a lot. I know that if someone wanted to use Marine knights of any kind, they only have one option now. Even beyond that, there are other things in here that could be useful like suicidal marines out to die beyond just being 'lone wolves." Also Sagas can be tottally used for many marines as I am sure there are many marine heroes with similar accolades.

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 20:39
pretty much yeah:p although i do allow traitor guard;)
(only cause i play them)

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:40
I actually just had a great thought. You could definatly create a very sick and fluffy World Eaters Legion army from this army list.... In fact I think that is what I may do!

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 20:43
I actually just had a great thought. You could definatly create a very sick and fluffy World Eaters Legion army from this army list.... In fact I think that is what I may do!

now THAT is acceptable, good thinking there;)

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:44
haha I can see it now. Using Ragnar as Kharne..

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 20:46
now THAT is acceptable, good thinking there;)

Personally I fail to see the difference now. Why is that option acceptable, while others aren't? Chaos Space Marine dex can do that as well, what is the missing piece here that makes World Eaters ok, but not smurfs?

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 20:53
I think that goes back to the age old problem with playing a legion dex. Many CSM players get the nerf stick if they try and play a fluffy legion army. With this army list you could field both fluffy elements as well as competitive elements. Plus some may argue that C:CS is still more powerful than SWs. As the book is not out I will not start that argument here, but Khorne berserkers are nothing to sneeze at compared to a GH or BC. I mean they are fearless with furious charge. Pretty damn good troop choices. The problem is the list is just stale tho. Using SW as World Eaters you could easily focus more on the blood rage aspect of them while being able to make an army thats fun and flexible to play. I think the problem more so arises when someone wants to use Ultramarines as SW. Simply because they HAVE a full army list, rather then a dex smashed together to cover all walks of chaos (save for demons which was an afterthought).

PS. You could also use it to make a preheresy world eaters army! Gleeee!

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 20:54
because world eaters are so similar to space wolves you would think they were related (well they sort of are). they are both CC specialists, both barbaric in there tactics and both raging lunatics;) its what i said earlier " if they are so similar to space wolves they may as well be..."

see what I'm getting at?

EDIT: @col_festus: i think pre heresy would keep some people happier (and allow you bolters ;)) but it would mean kharn is only a captain not a homicidal looney who epic teamkills:p

HsojVvad
10-09-2009, 21:04
OMG, it's the DA vs SM all over again, but this time it's the SM players who are crying and whaling now LMFAO. I use to be a cryer and whiner, with the DA codex. Was it foolish of me to do that? Yeah, now in hind sight yes it was. But then again there were some reasons for it. (don't want to rehash it anymore)

As SM players told DA players, is to basically suck it up princess and play your codex. Stop whining and crying and complaining. You have a codex so use it. So as some SM players have said, you should be using the SM codex then. I just find it very funny the shoe is on the other foot now LMFAO :)

But as others have said, it's your money, your time, your fun. If using the SW codex will make you happy and have fun go ahead and use it. Who is going to stop you from doing so?

Just like any DA player using the new SM codex, great go ahead. Just don't get mad at me for having some fun and calling you Fallen in fun, instead of a true DA.

Just expect some people to have a little bit of fun at your expense at first glance, chuckle with them, and then start playing and having a good time.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 21:05
Lol. I think the space wolf kit and the Khorne berserker kits off FW would mesh quite nicely too....

Israfael
10-09-2009, 21:22
Damn straight it is. But frankly it's a better designed codex than the Smurf book. less Herohammerd, more Army hammer based, and more flexible.

Also maybe enough people switch to SW, Gw will get the message and start putting more effort into their Marine releases rather than relying on Patches.

Sw isn't a Patch... it's a total rebuild of the Space Marine.

Have you taken a look inside the SW 'dex? I have - and it is indeed Hero based - some of said heroes are Calgar quality IMO.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 21:24
Just like any DA player using the new SM codex, great go ahead. Just don't get mad at me for having some fun and calling you Fallen in fun, instead of a true DA.

Just expect some people to have a little bit of fun at your expense at first glance, chuckle with them, and then start playing and having a good time.

I could live with the poking fun at :P

All codex Marines, DA and Smurfs, can run their army using this new Codex. It really is more a win for all marines than just for Space Wolves.

Israfael
10-09-2009, 21:26
I could live with the poking fun at :P

All codex Marines, DA and Smurfs, can run their army using this new Codex. It really is more a win for all marines than just for Space Wolves.

I'd rather play my dated 'dex than use Space Wolves - rivalry and such. ;)

Souleater
10-09-2009, 21:29
...i hate when people do this!:mad: a new codex comes out which is better than theirs ...

Blame GW? Look at the differences in design focus between Dark Angels and the upcoming SW army.

Dark Angels got busted over Anti-Tank, PFs, etc and given a few neat things in return...Combat Squads, Death Wing, Ravenwing, Relic Blades....it was heralded as a new template for all armies, etc, etc

The design philosophy appears to have changed totally. Long Fangs get their heavy weapons for less than a Vanilla or DA Dev but are better with them :wtf:

Grey Hunters...what can I say...as somebody used to using Termagants, Dark Eldar Warriors or Necron as Troops I always felt that Chaos Space Marines and Tacticals were pretty tough and flexible, dependable types.

Grey Hunters make Vanilla Assault Squads look average in CC while being cheaper and better than Tacts. The only downside is a lack of a Heavy Weapon...which can be overcome with WG, I believe. Or Razorbacks or armour support.

I'm not a great one for loading down a few units with lots of toys. I like to have a flexible force that doesn't rely on a couple of killer units but the average strength of the army as a whole.

By the sound of it a cautious use of the SW list can build a very tough, flexible army that compares fairly favourably with a Vanilla list in terms of model count.

This long semi-rant is basically leading to me using whichever SM codex I feel best. I'm fed up with being told to quit whining about the lack of Dark Eldar and Necron codexes by marine fanboys who think Xeno players should consider themselves damned lucky be allowed to pick the crumbs from the Space Marine's table. :rolleyes:

I've collected the core of an SM army by that weird osmosis that most 40K players are subject to. You just kind of end up with enough marines, Rhinos and Dreads to make an army.

Maybe I'll paint them up as Mentor Legion and just use the most recent codex (whether good or bad).

Maybe I'll just stick with whichever codex I find most powerful for my play style...because if I'm going to have to wait five to ten years for each of my main armies I'm damned well going to take the biggest, tastiest crumbs I can pull of the Marine's table.

The SW codex was more powerful than the other loyalist codexes in second, and was pretty strong in third. Only BT rivalled it, IMHO. I'm really not surprised that the rumoured Dex is the way it sounds to be honest. The Design Team always seem to have had a soft spot for the SWs.

I think it is just that this time around it is a little more obvious and so people are jumping on the bandwagon - SWs are no longer a hidden treasure.

On the other hand, people thinking they are going to be an IWIN button are probably in for an unpleasant shock. They will just load up on toys and get their butts kicked. Which will be hilarious.:evilgrin:

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 21:38
Souleater has the right Idea. Right here is more than a Space Wolf Dex, it is other things too.

I play Eldar Primarily and I don't have anything other than a Vulkan mini right now and thankfully my list is far from bad. But if I want to do Marines, almost any marine, Space Wolves might be the way to go.

Foulacy
10-09-2009, 21:53
no, just no.

i hate when people do this!:mad: a new codex comes out which is better than theirs and they decide to use that to gain an advantage. if anyone at my club does this i will refuse to play them, the only exceptions being if the chapter is so like the space wolves they may as well be. or they are a successor chapter (which to my knowledge there was only one.)

what is wrong with the marine codex? its hardly under powered, from what i have seen the space wolves codex won't be much more powerful than the vanilla codex, so what if we get space wolves riding wolves? i for one will not be using them because i think it is ridiculous and an absolute **** take IMO, oh and terminators as troops? correct me if I'm wrong but we just stole that from the DA codex? use that one if that's what you want. (oh wait that's an OLD codex you couldn't possibly do that!)

anyway i think i have made my point, rant over.

Couldn't agree more.

MistaGav
10-09-2009, 21:53
I do agree a bit but it is a tad annoying. Is this going to happen to every new sm codex release that people want to use that instead of the previous edition.

Then again I suppose GW is partly to blame as with every new codex since 5th seems to be about making things so uber killy now it's ridiculous!

rev
10-09-2009, 22:03
should I use the Space Wolf codex to represent my marines?

The question 'should you' is entirely up to you.

The question 'can you' is really two questions.

Firstly it is 'can you legally do the thing your suggesting'
this is determined by the rules as written.

BRB page ix says this:

The army list in each codex gives the pts cost for all models in that army....within these parameters there is a lot of freedom....

So yes you can.

Secondly it is 'can you morally/fluffily justify the thing your suggesting.'

For many modern players this question doesn't even matter, as even if it doesn't, it's not a reasonable enough argument not to field an odd choice of list (like sallies from codex SW).

The great thing about this hobby though is that there is canon fluff and personal fluff - so its pretty easy to create your OWN argument to justify the fluff.

This is my DIY chapter, the wolves of XXXX.

So in short - go for it. if anyone complains, they really don't have a leg to stand on.

Rev

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 22:04
It's not so much the uber killyness as their troops are extremely flexible and cheap... And have killyness to boot.

Emeraldw
10-09-2009, 22:04
I do agree a bit but it is a tad annoying. Is this going to happen to every new sm codex release that people want to use that instead of the previous edition.

Then again I suppose GW is partly to blame as with every new codex since 5th seems to be about making things so uber killy now it's ridiculous!

I would argue more along the lines of GW not giving basic marines the care they needed to compete. There isn't any level of inter codex equality. One is just flat out better in EVERY area. Flexibility, power, character, Space Wolves have it all over their rather basic counterparts in their new codex.

StormWulfen
10-09-2009, 22:24
This is my DIY chapter, the wolves of XXXX.

they can be called the leaves of the emperor for all i care, what really matters is whether in there background (whether personal or GW) they are known as a particularly brutal and barbaric chapter geared mainly for assault.


that is so going to be my next DIY chapter:p

DuskRaider
10-09-2009, 22:47
I actually just had a great thought. You could definatly create a very sick and fluffy World Eaters Legion army from this army list.... In fact I think that is what I may do!

No... Just no. If you're playing a Chaos army, use the Chaos codex. Yeah, it's bland and s****y, but you got a World Eaters army... Not a Space Wolves army.

Just the same way I feel about people using the Space Marine codex to represent Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion. I've got to deal with this codex, and if you want to play a Chaos Legion then so do you.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 22:56
Lol currently I play guard. I've wanted to do a legion army for World Eaters foreverrrrr but I could never find a good ruleset I liked. This maybe it barring an actual Legion dex which MAY see the light of day.. or possibly the blood angels when they come out.

DuskRaider
10-09-2009, 22:59
I just use the Chaos Codex. Sure... I've lost the perks of playing a World Eaters dedicated force, but I've also used the freedom of the new 'dex to make World Eater Tactical and Havoc Squads. Simply put... If I line my world Eaters up against another WE player and he's using the SW Codex, I'll refuse to play.

Wednesday Friday Addams
10-09-2009, 23:08
But if he means a pre hersey world eaters army it would be awesome. It's just like how people use the deathwing list to represent a terminator army. I see no problem with it.

Ironfather0
10-09-2009, 23:23
If i like the codex and feel can make a still fluffy list i would like to use it every know and then to represet my iron hands. For those who don't know antyinig about IH, the ih index astartes article was very similar to the space wolves rules. Iron hands have HQ dreads, so does space wolves, iron hands squads are often lead by sgts in terminator armor, this fits right within the wolfguard leading squads. If i can do this, and keep the feel i'm going for with my iron hands then i will def. be using the wolves book here and there so i can have a bit of variety.

and i think its very narrrowed mined and plain dumb to not play someone because they're using a certain list, fluff or no fluff :/

Tokamak
10-09-2009, 23:32
I think you will see tons of DIY chapters come from this book. I personally would love to make a Spartan/Roman themed marine army from them..

You mean like ultramarines?

Hicks
10-09-2009, 23:40
and i think its very narrrowed mined and plain dumb to not play someone because they're using a certain list, fluff or no fluff :/

This is a 2 edged sword. You gave a great exemple of the SW list being put to good use to count as an Iron Hands list. The difference is when people use it just for the fact that it's better.

As you said, it can be considered dumb to refuse to play someone, BUT this is a game we're talking about, so the point of participating in a game is to have fun. If I see someone with Wolfysed Ultra Marines, that's going to be a pretty big pointer that the guy really really wants to win. I can expect much cheeze from his list, much rules lawering and much anger if he loses. At least much more than I would expect from someone using an army that doesn't require any explaining at the start of the game to let me know what's supposed to be what.

So, if I have to choose who I'm gonna play against, wannabe SW gets picked last if it's a clear case of picking the best codex because it gives an advantage over using the proper list.

It might be considered narrow minded to refuse to play someone, but it's wishfull thinking to believe that everyone owes you a game and their time.

Industrial Propaganda
10-09-2009, 23:44
Lol currently I play guard. I've wanted to do a legion army for World Eaters foreverrrrr but I could never find a good ruleset I liked. This maybe it barring an actual Legion dex which MAY see the light of day.. or possibly the blood angels when they come out.

True. And with the space wolf codex you can make a force of world eaters riding on Juggernauts :)

Ironfather0
10-09-2009, 23:48
This is a 2 edged sword. You gave a great exemple of the SW list being put to good use to count as an Iron Hands list. The difference is when people use it just for the fact that it's better.

As you said, it can be considered dumb to refuse to play someone, BUT this is a game we're talking about, so the point of participating in a game is to have fun. If I see someone with Wolfysed Ultra Marines, that's going to be a pretty big pointer that the guy really really wants to win. I can expect much cheeze from his list, much rules lawering and much anger if he loses. At least much more than I would expect from someone using an army that doesn't require any explaining at the start of the game to let me know what's supposed to be what.

So, if I have to choose who I'm gonna play against, wannabe SW gets picked last if it's a clear case of picking the best codex because it gives an advantage over using the proper list.

It might be considered narrow minded to refuse to play someone, but it's wishfull thinking to believe that everyone owes you a game and their time.

I can respect your viewpoint, honestly, but not everyone who plays the space wolf codex using count as rules whether its fluffy or not, is not gonna be a bad sport, it just means he's trying a more competetive build out. i usually try to stay to a fluffy, yet competetive build as much as possible but i don't look down on people who want to just play a more competetive list unless they're known to be a bad sport.

Col_Festus
10-09-2009, 23:53
True. And with the space wolf codex you can make a force of world eaters riding on Juggernauts :)

Lol or kharne on a juggernaught? Stupid wolf riding space wolf rules makes for an uber cool character! lol

Damocles8
10-09-2009, 23:58
Hell I'm thinking of doing it just becasue I can field an army of terminators....that way I can represent my 1st company in a legal tourny

Col_Festus
11-09-2009, 00:03
Hell I'm thinking of doing it just becasue I can field an army of terminators....that way I can represent my 1st company in a legal tourny

See this is the reason why the SW codex should of been just been made Codex SMs. Its flexible enough to make interesting builds like Iron Warriors with their sargs in terminator armor. Or the Venerable first company of Ultramarines. The list goes on, but I think I have to agree with Micha on this one....

Shatter
11-09-2009, 00:31
The reason you can't use Ultramarines in a SW codex couldn't have anything to do with the fact that their Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes--the supposedly binding regulations by which every chapter is supposed to abide? >.>

Ironfather0
11-09-2009, 00:35
No... Just no. If you're playing a Chaos army, use the Chaos codex. Yeah, it's bland and s****y, but you got a World Eaters army... Not a Space Wolves army.

Just the same way I feel about people using the Space Marine codex to represent Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion. I've got to deal with this codex, and if you want to play a Chaos Legion then so do you.

Lol yes because someones pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to use the chaos marine codex :rolleyes:

Col_Festus
11-09-2009, 00:38
The reason you can't use Ultramarines in a SW codex couldn't have anything to do with the fact that their Primarch wrote the Codex Astartes--the supposedly binding regulations by which ever chapter is supposed to abide? >.>

I'm not saying they should use it. What I'm saying is GW should lay down the background for marines AS A WHOLE, and then give the options to make whatever you want. Ok so you want to play a fluffy Ultramarines list? Then follow Codex Astartes. The same way you can make a mech list or an infantry heavy list in the guard codex. There are dozens of different types of guard regiments, just like there are tons of marine chapters. Put it all in one damn book, and get on to some Xenos. As it is now, if someone wants to use the SW list because they feel their chapter doesn't perform how they feel it should, they are going to get chastised. Are Blood Angels savage close combat monsters? Yes they are supposed to be, should you use codex SW as them because it better represents the way they should play on the board? Who knows, its up to the individual player, but if GW had made it one big book, they could play their chapter however they wanted without getting crap from other players.

Rick Blaine
11-09-2009, 00:44
I see no reason to not use C:SW to field any SM or even undivided CSM army. They can even make better Deathwing than DA.

hellhammer6
11-09-2009, 00:45
I plan to use them to represent my Tyranids!!

"this carnifex uses the wolf-rider rules. and this hive tyrant is actually a landraider..." ;)

j/k

Shatter
11-09-2009, 00:48
Right, but I was just saying. :p


-snip- Put it all in one damn book, and get on to some Xenos. -snip-

Agreed. They should just do one book with Chapter Traits selectable, with the ability to alter for different chapters (Exorcists, etc).

Vandelan
11-09-2009, 00:55
This is all probably just going to blow over once people realize there is a flaw in the Space Wolves Codex. Well, also when the Blood Angels or Black Templar codex arrive, the same people will jump ship.

You can't expect everyone to be satisfied with their own wits when they can use the latest shiny toy GW puts out.

Ironfather0
11-09-2009, 00:55
Right, but I was just saying. :p



Agreed. They should just do one book with Chapter Traits selectable, with the ability to alter for different chapters (Exorcists, etc).

me and my one friend talked about this and it wouldn't really be hard to do a marine book that includes all the chapter. You could have a page on all the special chapters. As an example Declare that your using a blood angels army and you get these special units and characters and then be done with it. it really woudn't be hard, or declare that your using a dark angels army and gain termiatnor,biker troops and get these special characters etc.

DuskRaider
11-09-2009, 00:57
Lol yes because someones pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to use the chaos marine codex :rolleyes:

No one's making me, but it's the codex that was made for my army (however poor I think it is). I forgot, some people can't deal with using tact and would rather just use the most powerful book in the game to ensure a win :rolleyes:

Ironfather0
11-09-2009, 01:01
No one's making me, but it's the codex that was made for my army (however poor I think it is). I forgot, some people can't deal with using tact and would rather just use the most powerful book in the game to ensure a win :rolleyes:

and i greatly respect the fact that your gonna stick to your book, however you can't look down on people who want to use a different rules set for whatever reason it may be.

Dranthar
11-09-2009, 01:09
Doesn't this thread pop up every time a MEQ codex comes out?

It happened with the Chaos Marine Codex, the Space Marine Codex, possibly the Blood Angels and Dark Angel Codex and now the Space Wolf Codex.

Rumours come out, everyone reads the rule snippets and assumes that this new codex is so good that it makes all other MEQ armies obsolete. People say that their Chaos/Vanilla/Dark Angel army will now be using the new codex, arguments ensue.

Honestly, I'm finding it a little tiresome.

Is the new SW codex straight-up better than the other MEQ codecies? Maybe. But I'm going to wait until I've seen it in action before jumping to any conclusion.

Ironfather0
11-09-2009, 01:21
Doesn't this thread pop up every time a MEQ codex comes out?

It happened with the Chaos Marine Codex, the Space Marine Codex, possibly the Blood Angels and Dark Angel Codex and now the Space Wolf Codex.

Rumours come out, everyone reads the rule snippets and assumes that this new codex is so good that it makes all other MEQ armies obsolete. People say that their Chaos/Vanilla/Dark Angel army will now be using the new codex, arguments ensue.

Honestly, I'm finding it a little tiresome.

Is the new SW codex straight-up better than the other MEQ codecies? Maybe. But I'm going to wait until I've seen it in action before jumping to any conclusion.
agreed, we'll have to wait and see it in action

Ryusa
11-09-2009, 01:28
Well, I belive that the new SW codex could be used to represent the WE.
Righ now the CSM codex do not represent all the aspect of the WE.
We don't have:
-Drop pod : Their favorite tatic since before the Heresy.
-Berzerks ridding juggernauts: Not only fluffy, but cool as hell!!!
-Non crased Dreds: Enough said about this already
-Khorne specific armory itens: Khorne offer a lot more that 1 daemon weapon.
-More that 1 troop choice: My WE is not made only of Berzerks
And the list goes on...

I am serious considering using the SW codex for my WE, I would have not only a fluffy ruleset but also a lot of variety in my army list.

In the end doesn't matter which codex we use, only that the blood keeps flowing...:D

HsojVvad
11-09-2009, 02:08
Hell I'm thinking of doing it just becasue I can field an army of terminators....that way I can represent my 1st company in a legal tourny

*cough cough* Fallen. :D

Why would you say you can finally field an all terminator legal army? You can already to that with the DA codex, unless you are Fallen hehe.

Just kidding about the Fallen, but really why would you say you can't legally field an all Terminator army?


Doesn't this thread pop up every time a MEQ codex comes out?

It happened with the Chaos Marine Codex, the Space Marine Codex, possibly the Blood Angels and Dark Angel Codex and now the Space Wolf Codex.

Rumours come out, everyone reads the rule snippets and assumes that this new codex is so good that it makes all other MEQ armies obsolete. People say that their Chaos/Vanilla/Dark Angel army will now be using the new codex, arguments ensue.

Honestly, I'm finding it a little tiresome.

Is the new SW codex straight-up better than the other MEQ codecies? Maybe. But I'm going to wait until I've seen it in action before jumping to any conclusion.

Actually, when the DA codex came out, it was the SM players who were crying how cruddy it was, wich caused GW to change the design philosphy, nobody was crying how great it was :skull:

But I agree wit you, it is a little tiresome that everyone complains when a new SM codex comes out. Just wait till Blood Angels and Black Templar, and Dark Angels get their new codex out. Let the crying begin again.

Unless they use DA as a beta test for 6th edtion hehe :evilgrin:

HsojVvad
11-09-2009, 02:15
*edit* made a boo boo sorry. Not shure how but double post.

kormas
11-09-2009, 03:11
hmm, the world eater idea sounds like a good one....

personaly i dont refuse to play someone if i dont like what they have done, i just try not to get games against them, we have one guy at my gc who still insists on using the old 3.5 chaos, caus he thinks the new one is bland, and he is correct, but i think he is being immature so dont play him. on the other hand, i have converted a bunch of skaven up and use them as my daemons army.

from this you can see that i am one of those people that will happily face.use an army that is converted up really well, but if people just want to use different rules for an army that already has rules (eg: SW insted of deathwing) then i wont play them if i can help it.

the general idea of what i have just said is that if you have rules that fit your army that are current, then use them, dont go jumping onto the bandwagon and use counts as for your entire army unless you are willing to go the whole way and convert them all.

hopefully that made a little sense, i am really tired right now so i am not thinking strait :D

antin3
11-09-2009, 03:30
I don't personally don't care what codex someone uses but I find it a bit 'oily' to use another army's codex. I play CSM and I like the codex overall except for a few units I would like to see changed. I will use it no matter what uber codex is next. That's just me, but I see many newer or younger players don't have the same issues with it as I do.
My problem is with GW, they need better and quicker updates and codex releases. I have been playing Warmachine over the last month and I really like what they do and how they handle releases and updates. There is no reason GW shouldn't do that other than them being their usual ivory tower selves. They do no wrong and are above reproach. Privateer Press held a tournament to decide which army book would be released first and following that a army book will be released each month, that's the way to handle it GW, please take note, PP first edition update in about seven years and all of the factions are getting new books and new models.

Ryusa
11-09-2009, 03:44
Well, I could be wrong.
:evilgrin:
I guess I need to see the codex to say anything final about it.

o/

Col_Festus
11-09-2009, 03:52
I don't personally don't care what codex someone uses but I find it a bit 'oily' to use another army's codex. I play CSM and I like the codex overall except for a few units I would like to see changed. I will use it no matter what uber codex is next. That's just me, but I see many newer or younger players don't have the same issues with it as I do.
My problem is with GW, they need better and quicker updates and codex releases. I have been playing Warmachine over the last month and I really like what they do and how they handle releases and updates. There is no reason GW shouldn't do that other than them being their usual ivory tower selves. They do no wrong and are above reproach. Privateer Press held a tournament to decide which army book would be released first and following that a army book will be released each month, that's the way to handle it GW, please take note, PP first edition update in about seven years and all of the factions are getting new books and new models.

Love privateer press. My friends and I find that more and more we are playing Warmachine or hordes, and warhammer less and less. They do a great job with support, and they defiantly have the customer in mind.

Emeraldw
11-09-2009, 04:03
I really think the best way to do this is to DIY a chapter. After that I can do anything I want and no one can really cry fowl which codex I use. Though I certainly like the idea of Green and Dragon imagery :D

Dranthar
11-09-2009, 04:30
Just for arguements sake...


Actually, when the DA codex came out, it was the SM players who were crying how cruddy it was, wich caused GW to change the design philosphy, nobody was crying how great it was :skull:

First off, I don't think anyone can assume GW changed their design philosophy because of peoples reaction to the DA Codex. At best, it's guesses based on percieved patterns in each new codex release. In fact, GWs design philosophy regularly tends to be rather opaque, hidden behind WD articles laden with marketing-oriented duckspeak (props to whomever gets the reference ;) ).

Secondly, I'm pretty sure there were at least a few people commenting on discounts to certain units.

genestealer_baldric
11-09-2009, 08:24
there are allready some people i know who are contemplating using the SW codex but some chacters and items from the SM codex for there current marines, i ve got a feeling i will be seing alot more of them, Cant people stick to there own codex anymore.

Petay1985
11-09-2009, 09:09
I really do think that folk should use their armies codex if they have one, in my opinion however codex switching doesn't really do any harm providing they stick to their armies feel / fluff.
For example i would not use the space wolves codex to represent me regular Red Scorpions as they are not close combat monsters.
I would however use the blood angels codex to represent my Red Scorpions assault company as i may want my troops to be assault marines!!

Souleater
11-09-2009, 09:32
Then you should use the Space Wolf Dex - their Troops are pretty much Assault Marines. :D

The SW dex is looking attractive because it offers fanstastic flexibility. I think that alone is causing a lot of players to consider using it.

It also sounds as if it can do pretty much what the DA, BA and Vanilla dexes can do... in some cases cheaper. And all in one list.

If I want Assaulty Troops I can use my BA dex or SWs

If I want a first co Terminator BA army I can use DA...or SWs.

If I want a DP army I can use ....well you get the idea.

So why don't I paint up the models for a single army and do my Souleater, or Mentor Legion, or Death Watch, or Star Leopards with the SW dex?

And people are already coming up with interesting homebrew chapters - the Sallies riding giant Lizzies is an excellent example.

As to those people using the list just because it is more powerful...I've explained my Xenocentric excuse for doing so but why should that matter anyway? What's wrong with using a Codex simply because it is more powerful?

The problem only arises if a codex is actually more powerful - all codexes should be roughly equal. This could all be 'pre-release new codex' hyperbole we may not be being told the negative bits.

So far the downsides are Bjorn being I3 and stuff getting very expensive if you are stupid with upgrades. The core stuff looks like very good value.

marv335
11-09-2009, 09:49
Ho hum,
New marine codex.
It was only a matter of time before all the self justifications would come out for using the new shiny (and powerful) codex to represent a different chapter (that already has its own codex.)

Would these people use it if it was less powerful than it is rumoured to be?
I doubt it.

Sons of Russ
11-09-2009, 10:27
when I use my plastic yellow terminators instead of my 30 LEAD old school WolfGuard termies.... I hope someone TRIES to call me a bandwagoner....

1) I've been playing Wolves for TWENTY YEARS (on and off)
2) ummmm my avatar handle goes back to the Portent days...

; p

Giganthrax
11-09-2009, 12:59
I am definitely going to use the new SW codex with my DIY codex-chapter miniatures. It'll take a little conversion and some new models, but generally it's going to be like having two armies for the price of one. This way, when I feel like playing codex marines I can, and when I feel like SW, I can play that too.

Also, I'm not necessarily going to stop using the SM codex (I rather like it, despite a huge amount of the units being basically non-viable in my local metagame), but if SW proves to be superior and suits my playstyle better, then there's no reason to keep using an inferior codex. If SW proves inferrior, or not suited to my playstyle, then I'll just go back to using codex marines.

Captain Micha
11-09-2009, 13:33
Have you taken a look inside the SW 'dex? I have - and it is indeed Hero based - some of said heroes are Calgar quality IMO.

They may be. However unlike Smurfs, their SCs aren't required to simply have a viable army.

ashc
11-09-2009, 13:34
They may be. However unlike Smurfs, their SCs aren't required to simply have a viable army.

In this regard, hopefully we will see a lot less blue Vulkans when this comes out :p

Captain Micha
11-09-2009, 13:42
In this regard, hopefully we will see a lot less blue Vulkans when this comes out :p

Instead.

"CASSIUS!! Is that a WOLF PELT, you are wearing?"

"But, it's so fashionable!"

:D :D :)

Every Marine player on the planet should purchase the SW book. Come on guys, show your support for Competence over Patches! And as an added bonus the SW can do pretty much any list from any chapter you want to play, but better than those Cookie Cutter Codexes! You want a Flexible on the level of Eldar grade book. You know you do!

Fixer
11-09-2009, 13:50
In this regard, hopefully we will see a lot less blue Vulkans when this comes out :p

Surely you mean the 'Totally in Robute's codex teachings' Blandfather Vulkanius Hestanius? :)

Souleater
11-09-2009, 13:54
I was tempted to post the following in the other Space Marine Tacticas:

"Hello, this thread is due to be closed due to a lack of interest. For all your Space Marine Tactics please go here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219902)"

But I don't want to get banned :D

Waaagh Grignak
13-09-2009, 21:27
Hehe!

Im gonna use it for my world eaters army, at least then i can play one of my cult legions as they should be done :)

sabreu
13-09-2009, 22:42
I think i'm going to use the SW codex to play my Orks. I mean, their both brutal in close combat and savage, so that should translate over well.

Myesh, good job. >=D

Ronin_eX
13-09-2009, 22:57
I hope I'm not the only person thinking of using this to do a Deathwing list at some point. I'm even thinking of converting up some non-drop pods that act as large teleport beacons (and cover) allowing the Deathwing to come in safely on target.

Depending on squad make up I could even use Grey Hunters as company veterans and Long Fangs would make a great veteran devastator squad representing one that survived the defense of Koth Ridge at Piscina.

And don't even get me started on using lone heroes as questing knights from the inner circle. All I have to do is ignore the damn wolf riders (or repurpose them to not be silly, but that depends on the stats).

If the DA get a codex this rife with possibilities it will be nice but for now the SW codex will more than adequately reproduce the Deathwing force I wanted to field with the last DA codex. And it also looks like GW may have finally figured out to make a truly viable all terminator force again which is nice and will at least hopefully port over well to the next DA codex.

HsojVvad
13-09-2009, 23:14
I hope I'm not the only person thinking of using this to do a Deathwing list at some point. I'm even thinking of converting up some non-drop pods that act as large teleport beacons (and cover) allowing the Deathwing to come in safely on target.

Depending on squad make up I could even use Grey Hunters as company veterans and Long Fangs would make a great veteran devastator squad representing one that survived the defense of Koth Ridge at Piscina.

And don't even get me started on using lone heroes as questing knights from the inner circle. All I have to do is ignore the damn wolf riders (or repurpose them to not be silly, but that depends on the stats).

If the DA get a codex this rife with possibilities it will be nice but for now the SW codex will more than adequately reproduce the Deathwing force I wanted to field with the last DA codex. And it also looks like GW may have finally figured out to make a truly viable all terminator force again which is nice and will at least hopefully port over well to the next DA codex.

Wow you really giving DA a shot in the eye eh? First not using a DA codex, is Fallen, then you have to use SW, what a black eye indeed. :D

Hey I am only kidding. I can see how you can have lots of fun using the new SW codex, so go ahead and enjoy. I just hope we get the same treatment when the new DA codex comes out.

But serious for a second now. If we keep this up, and everyone jumping ship to the new codex, it almost proves the point that others say that there should only be one Marine codex. So imagine 6th edtion, all Chaos, and Loyal space marine players will have to use the new 6th edtion SM codex for everyone. No more codex for other chapters. Maybe we should be sticking with the codex that we use for the army we play. Just an idea.

I am just tired of reading how people say there should only be one SM codex for everyone. All we doing is giving the proof they are right.

Khaeron Baoth
13-09-2009, 23:37
Soon we hear, that someone makes Thousand Sons army with C:SW.:)

Ronin_eX
14-09-2009, 00:05
Wow you really giving DA a shot in the eye eh? First not using a DA codex, is Fallen, then you have to use SW, what a black eye indeed. :D

Hey I am only kidding. I can see how you can have lots of fun using the new SW codex, so go ahead and enjoy. I just hope we get the same treatment when the new DA codex comes out.

But serious for a second now. If we keep this up, and everyone jumping ship to the new codex, it almost proves the point that others say that there should only be one Marine codex. So imagine 6th edtion, all Chaos, and Loyal space marine players will have to use the new 6th edtion SM codex for everyone. No more codex for other chapters. Maybe we should be sticking with the codex that we use for the army we play. Just an idea.

I am just tired of reading how people say there should only be one SM codex for everyone. All we doing is giving the proof they are right.

When I can make a knightly terminator unit using the DW list I may well like it then but the WG terminators can do very fluffy combinations like storm shields and power weapons as well as a load of other flexible builds that the DW can't touch. They start for as low as seven points less than a standard terminator or can go up higher with good equipment but they get loads of flexibility in their terminators which used to be a Deathwing hallmark since 3rd Edition (one of the few things we got really :p). So it is more that I can do very thematic deathwing with the SW codex because in the end their basic version (SB + PF) is about as expensive as a DW one. DW squads get a very cookie-cutter feel to them after a while and a set-up like the WG helps alleviate that quite a bit by allowing me to customize them and tweak them to give them that knightly order feel they should have.

As for your last point I am in two camps for it. I either want one codex for all of them or I want them to give each variant chapter enough unique flavour that it justifies different lists. Had they built in the ability to field a pure terminator/veteran list in the new C: SM I would have no real gripes because I could then leave the DA codex behind as the C: SM book would have everything I need to make a DA force. Unfortunately they didn't leaving many players stuck with a sub-par codex that they kept because it was the only option for their army.

With the new SW list they can at least make proper first company lists for all chapters now due to the flexibility of the Wolf Guard. Equip them with bikes and you have a passable Ravenwing or White Scars core force, give them power armour and do a conventional first company list or kit them out like terminators and do Deathwing. That is a lot of flexibility in one unit and that is what is drawing me to making my ideal army this way. It isn't perfect but it ends up being a better choice than the more restrictive DA codex.

As for being considered fallen, I've collected Dark Angels for 12 years and have never bothered making a second army. I love their background but over the past decade their rules have been sub-par. If I spent that much money on them then I'd like something of a return on my investment. That I can make a more flavourful and flexible Deathwing list with someone else's codex only shows GW need to try harder. :p

When the next DA codex comes out I will certainly give it a look but after suffering through the 3rd Edition codex and getting left behind with the 4th Edition codex I am in no mood to put up with GW on anything but my own terms. If it ends up being as flexible and fun as the SW codex then all the better, I'd love it if the DA in-house rules could finally represent them well and be balanced against other current codices for longer than two months.

And if it helps anyone's delicate sensibilities my homebrew DA will have divergent fluff to go with my choice so I am going a decidedly non-canon route with them (and always have). The teutonic knight feel of the SW list is simply closer to my Arthurian themed DA than the more bland codex list.

Scion of Ferrus
14-09-2009, 00:09
I'm going to be using the C:SW for my Iron Hands, although I am going to get stuck with Termi's that cannot Teleport:chrome::D

Dag
14-09-2009, 00:35
use whatever rules you want, but dont just do it to max out a single avenue
ie, wolfguard heavyweapons team with grimnar jumping out of a truck and shooting all the enemy tanks with melta's and lascannons at once lol.

or the 10termies with claws and rhagnar, + wolf priest.
4+d3 str/init 5 reroll hits/wounds attacks. no saves. its viable but if i see someone put that unit down ill just walk away. not gona play games against the 1unit armies.

and i play sw. i just perfer balanced games to one trip ponies. i think the list is great and has some drawbacks people arent seeing. and the psycic power is just broken. wtb hotfix

decker_cky
14-09-2009, 00:59
I don't mind the mixing background for lists if it makes for more interesting armies. Even black legion, which is perfectly well represented in codex: chaos space marine can use codex space wolfs to make different, more interesting builds. I don't feel like taking plaguemarines, daemon princes and obliterators, but I don't want to be punished for taking a chaos lord, basic marines, and havoks. Enter codex space wolfs. You can add all sorts of chaos spice in there too, having mark of the wulfen counts as possessed (you even have winged ones for your skyclaws!), mixing terminators into squads and having your reaper autocannons count as assault cannons (most other terminator options the SW have are available to chaos marines, so there's no problem there). Heck, grey hunters even fit the veterans that CSM should be with the extra skills better than CSM do. Am I making these changes to be more powerful? No, in my mind taking DPs, oblits and plague marines is stronger, but it is a more powerful version of the models I would have liked to take in the chaos list.

So long as you're clear to your opponents about what counts as what, I've no problem.

HsojVvad
14-09-2009, 01:33
And if it helps anyone's delicate sensibilities my homebrew DA will have divergent fluff to go with my choice so I am going a decidedly non-canon route with them (and always have). The teutonic knight feel of the SW list is simply closer to my Arthurian themed DA than the more bland codex list.

If you don't mind, I would love to read what you make with the SW codex into DA. I love reading fluff armies like this. If you pull it off, I might have to steal the idea, (I mean borrow) it from you :p

I think that is a great idea. I just wish more people were like you instead of just power gaming because something else is better and stronger. I love how you plan on fluffing your army and would love to read whay you plan on.

CKO
14-09-2009, 07:20
Why do you think there are 5 different codexes for basically the same thing except for a few rule changes or specialization? Its to make all space marine players buy a codex and a few more models. The pretenders will realize that they need to buy more and more to be competitive with the new codex, which is the goal of GW.

They make money off of space marine players creativity and they make money off of comeptitive players builds. Do you think GW cares why you chose to buy the new codex and a few more models?

To the players that think that bandwagoners or DIY chapters are horrible, just picture these individuals as people that have fallen prey to Games Workshop trap.

To the bandwagoners or DIY chapters users, just picture the critics as jealous. Why should you make drastic changes when GW just made a few rule changes themselves?

Either way I hope you guys find a list that will kill or get killed for a good ole time :evilgrin:.

cyenwulf
14-09-2009, 07:34
I have been alot of "Space wolves (and other variant chapters) are too different to be included in the normal SM dex". And yet when Codex:SW is released everything from Ultrasmurfs to Dark Angels to World Eaters are able to be represented accurately by it.

Just makes the arguements of Variant Chapter Codexes being required ahead of Xenos/other Imperial dexs seem a little unnecessary and greedy.

Orktavius
14-09-2009, 07:54
Of course once the codex is released and people start using it/getting used to it the SW book will no longer be considered broken or whatever. This happens EVERY freaking time a codex is being release people start going on and on about how it's so much better then the last codex that came out and how GW screwed the pooch on it somehow blah blah blah enough already -_-. C:SM is a perfectly fine book and for everything you say is "so much better" then the SM codex in the SW book there is a downside. Do longfangs get heavy weapons cheaper then devestators do? Sure do...of course they also come without the bullet catchers so every sucessful wound is a dead special weapon. Greyhunters to my memory don't reall have special weapon options and to kit a WG termie up with say TH/SS costs 23 more points then a C:SM TH/SS. They also can't teleport and only a max 5 termies are ever going to come down in a SW drop pod. WG weapon options are expensive as hell as are all the special characters. Decently equiped vanilla HQ's also come out high on the price chart

WLBjork
14-09-2009, 07:58
The problem is that all chapters except SW are supposed to follow Codex Astartes.

That means all squads are 5 or 10 men (except where there are casualties), and there is a fixed OOB. Some armies don't follow this precisely (Salamanders only have 7 companies IIRC), but at their core, the organisation and the tactics are the same.

The Wolves are different, they have rejected the Codex Astartes, and as such they shouldn't be able to represent any other SM force. If Codex SW can truely be used to represent Ultramarines, then GW have got it wrong.

cyenwulf
14-09-2009, 08:13
The problem is that all chapters except SW are supposed to follow Codex Astartes.

That means all squads are 5 or 10 men (except where there are casualties), and there is a fixed OOB. Some armies don't follow this precisely (Salamanders only have 7 companies IIRC), but at their core, the organisation and the tactics are the same.

The Wolves are different, they have rejected the Codex Astartes, and as such they shouldn't be able to represent any other SM force. If Codex SW can truely be used to represent Ultramarines, then GW have got it wrong.

This. What is the point in having divirgent Chapters if they aren't noticibaly different to Codex Chapters?

genestealer_baldric
14-09-2009, 08:52
Is it just me that uses the correct codex for the correct army, all these other people going to use the SW codex for other army. Does this mean i can add landradier to my nid force becuase SM have them and i dont so iam only making things fair.:rolleyes:

Ronin_eX
14-09-2009, 09:21
If you don't mind, I would love to read what you make with the SW codex into DA. I love reading fluff armies like this. If you pull it off, I might have to steal the idea, (I mean borrow) it from you :p

I think that is a great idea. I just wish more people were like you instead of just power gaming because something else is better and stronger. I love how you plan on fluffing your army and would love to read whay you plan on.

Yeah, I've recently been struck by how much I don't really want my DA to be codex anymore. Their damned Arthurian knight marines and I want it to show. The ability to make so many unique terminator builds allows me to really customize each one and make squads feel like ad hoc groups of ancient veterans, lone heroes are perfect for knights-errant, my particular list also has a great deal of fluff about squads of veteran devastators from the Piscina campaign who are on lone from the 3rd company to help Belial on his inception crusade to hunt the fallen. And Logan's rules are perfect for representing the kind of tactical genius attributed to DA commanders so despite the hefty cost he will make a great Belial.

Though I probably wont be buying much new stuff I have loads of bits ready for conversion but that will wait until I have the codex itself.


Is it just me that uses the correct codex for the correct army, all these other people going to use the SW codex for other army. Does this mean i can add landradier to my nid force becuase SM have them and i dont so iam only making things fair.

Facetious post is facetious.

I trust you see the difference and simply like being obtuse so I'll spare the roll-eyes because it never helps to be too pretentious.

;)

(not above sarcastic winks though)

genestealer_baldric
14-09-2009, 09:56
its just the next stage along the road of having calgar and vulkan leading the same force because it offers the best results from a codex rather than them staying with the correct chapter. this time its using not just using diffrent IC to get the advantage but a codex for a completaly diffrent chapter.

Captain Micha
14-09-2009, 13:55
This. What is the point in having divirgent Chapters if they aren't noticibaly different to Codex Chapters?

Fluff?

Codex wise there is none. There never has been a point in it. Other than that GW seems to enjoy rewarding Idiot Designers. Biel-Tan and Uthwe are vastly different, more so than any marine list. Yet they not only share the same codex, but don't even have any special rules from each other, because you just represent that with a different army list that fits the themes. The same can be said about Catachan and Cadia.

Brother Drakist
14-09-2009, 14:46
I think that all Deathwing players should feel no shame in playing with the Space Wolves codex. It is by far the better option for an all Terminator army. It will also allow the Terminators to seem unique and powerful. I say Bravo to codex Wolves and all Termie forces.

As far as other chapters switching over? That is really up to the player. Not totally in agreement with it, but to each their own.

ashc
14-09-2009, 16:21
Fluff?

Codex wise there is none. There never has been a point in it. Other than that GW seems to enjoy rewarding Idiot Designers. Biel-Tan and Uthwe are vastly different, more so than any marine list. Yet they not only share the same codex, but don't even have any special rules from each other, because you just represent that with a different army list that fits the themes. The same can be said about Catachan and Cadia.

No, it is that GW are chasing the cash-cow, that is why we get divergent marine chapters with codexes.

Fenrir
14-09-2009, 16:43
No, it is that GW are chasing the cash-cow.

Anything wrong with that?

ashc
14-09-2009, 16:50
Anything wrong with that?

Of course not (well, unless it was greatly detrimental to the community, but it's not) it just slightly annoys me when people forget why we have divergent chapter books *really*.

Souleater
14-09-2009, 17:39
Anything wrong with that?

Mad cash-cow disease.

Early symptoms are items of identical equipment failing to work in the same way due to which space marine chapter is using them.

ashc
14-09-2009, 17:42
Mad cash-cow disease.

Early symptoms are items of identical equipment failing to work in the same way due to which space marine chapter is using them.

My personal bugbear of how that entire system works; assault cannons, land raiders, storm shields, argh, makes me wish I could break my marine habit.

Fenrir
15-09-2009, 09:06
Mad cash-cow disease.

Early symptoms are items of identical equipment failing to work in the same way due to which space marine chapter is using them.

What do you want GW to do then? Stop making money?

Arbiter7
15-09-2009, 09:14
Stupid idea, 99% wont make that fantastic converted army that uses the SW ruleset, and 1% will. (99% of gamers can't even paint decently, let alone convert efficiently).


This means that 99% will do it just because it's better (or looks better for that matter).


Which is stupid. SW are supposed to adhere to their own code of conduct and that's why they're so different than any chapter that is an adherent to the codex astartes.

Now unless it has become a trend in the imperium for SM chapters to wave goodbye to the codex astartes and suddenly become more "wild" like the wolves, then this makes no sense, apart from seeing something shinier and grabbing for it.

Don't sugar coat it guys, like I said, practically no-one is going to convert it efficiently and really justify doing it.

Souleater
15-09-2009, 09:21
What do you want GW to do then? Stop making money?

Oooh, pithy! :rolleyes:

How about they update their rules in a timely fashion, instead? :eyebrows:

Ronin_eX
15-09-2009, 09:44
What do you want GW to do then? Stop making money?

Maybe make their product worth what the customers pay would be a good start. ;)

AmKhaibitu
15-09-2009, 09:55
Or here's an idea, base all common equipment rules and such in one universal book, like what we had back in 2nd ed.
Then everybody gets that selection of equipment and the rules that come with.

Then we wouldn't have different shades of stuff, and when a new edition comes around, they release a revised set of equipment rules.

Captain Micha
15-09-2009, 12:46
What do you want GW to do then? Stop making money?

You do realize that not even GW is stupid enough to continue selling non profitable mini lines right? SM aren't the only source of revenue for GW.

warflag
15-09-2009, 13:57
This topic really pops up with every new PowerArmour Codex that comes out.
Understandably, as I think.

Of course it all breaks down to the company making money. If you think it to the end you could come to the conclusion that six power armour codices against seven non PA codices is odd from the beginning.

When I started Marines some ages ago they had those small DA and BA extra books out, the followups to Angels of death. I used them at random for the same force, to try out tactics and stuff. So three codices for one army.
When the first threads like this one popped up, specially the "Use C:SM for Iron Warriors" and such, I was kind of against it.
Stupid, eh?

I see it like this now: It works for GW, as they put out a codex and it will sell to far more folks than the SW players. Those who collect, the competitive players and more.
It works for the players, they test new tactics, or just blandly want to win, or even some see "their" fluff better represented.
All of this is ok to me. WHo cares, the problem is another one, one that will not be resolved anytime ever.

We donīt need new codices in the way they are made!

Two examples for my statement: Codex SM 4th ed., it had chapter traits, a hell of a lot of possibilities to build your chapter to whatever background you want them fit into. It was possible. Ok, some builds needed some imagination, as SM-bear cavalry would have had to be mounted on bikes, ruleswise. But you get the picture. This kind of bending the fluff into the rule is the same as discussed here.
Codex:CSM 3.5, I can excellently remember the ranting about the brokeness of that book. Imho it is still the best codex for CSM there has ever been. It had all the different army builds in one book. Of course you could build a totally broken army, but that is still today possible, with a variety of books: Nidzilla, IG vet army (lower model count than a SM army that blasts the SM into orbit? :wtf: ), etc..

Bottom line: It is a problem to represent fluff in a competitive enviroment like tourneys. But then I think this game was never made for this. Proof: More games PA against PA than guard against xenos of any kind, which, fluffwise, would be appropriate.


Far too long a post for my point ;)

It is a game, play!

Cheers
Bart

ashc
15-09-2009, 17:05
You do realize that not even GW is stupid enough to continue selling non profitable mini lines right? SM aren't the only source of revenue for GW.

That's true, but it doesn't detract from the fact that marines make a HELL of a lot of money for them and are probably their most identifiable brand feature.

Captain Micha
15-09-2009, 17:51
I think they'd gain more revenue by killing off their stores and start working with Game Stores and Hobby Shops instead.

Logarithm Udgaur
16-09-2009, 05:38
This is a great idea! Why play the chapter you chose when you can just take the newer better rules instead. Thank the Warp that GW is smart enough to put it in the hands of the players to decide what codex should represent their chapter that already has a codex.

Hellebore
16-09-2009, 05:45
Just proves how similar their marine armies are.

Rarely does someone shout they are using the ork codex for their guard. Or nids for necrons. But trading blue marines for red/green/black/grey marines? All the time.

GW will go under if they don't try selling their other lines in a manner similar to their marines. That or drop the other lines and focus on nothing but space marines. It's silly to have a huge catalogue of stuff you spent millions producing if you try and get your customers to buy only one product from the catalogue.

GW need to realise their space marines won't hold them up forever.

hellebore

kazkal
16-09-2009, 05:45
I'd have no problem with it....Gonna have a Azure templar army ^_^

CKO
16-09-2009, 06:21
Money wise, they make more money with the release of each new space marine codex, what thats what the new space wolve codex is. Not like we are going to see actual space wolf models.

Think about it, the golden question is how can GW, get their main customers to buy new stuff?

Whats the most popular army? Space Marines

How can we get them to buy new stuff? We could make another space marine codex, change a few things and call it something different.

How do you know they will buy the new stuff? We will make new models or create rules that would make them want to buy more stuff.

When they release a non-marine codex they are taking a risk, which is limited because its typically a codex that needs it.

Souleater
16-09-2009, 08:32
And how many people will simply use their existing SM models or buy cheap ones from ebay?

If GW did more work on Xeno and gave them entirely new sculpts or units the incentive to do such a thing would be much, much less.

Tarondor
16-09-2009, 14:50
With rules for Wolf Riders, Frostblades etc it leaves room for many variant armies, more than maybe C:SM. Someone else mentioned Salamanders riding cold ones for Wolf Riders, Frostblade rules could represent certain swords and weapons that chapters have in their history. Only problem I can see is non-teleporting Termies. But this dex seems to me to have the most versitility but could cause some confusion to opponents when you use C:SW for Salamanders or White Scars on horses or whatever.

Captain Micha
16-09-2009, 15:17
Nah, it's not confusing. It's just the most up to date Marine dex.

However unlike previous Patch Dexes... this one seems to actually be more of a Codex than the Supposed Universal Codex that came before it.