View Full Version : First turn advantge or second turn advantage?

big squig
11-09-2009, 04:25
Which is better in 5th ed do you think? Going first, or going second.

Obviously going first means you get first shot, but in any game but annihilation going second tends to give you more control over grabbing objectives. It also lets you have an advantage during deployment.

My gaming group pretty much never ever plays annihilation because of how poorly its designed. So, we've noticed a real lean towards wanting to go second.

What have you noticed?

11-09-2009, 04:29
In 4th Edition, this wasn`t even a legitimate question. But now, it does beg a little discussion I think. Recently I`ve been using my Daemons a lot. With all of the reserve, deepstrikes, no vehicles and assaulty nature of this army...I prefer to go second. This is especially true in objective grabbing missions. If I was using IG, I might still prefer to go first.

Almighty Nocturnus

11-09-2009, 04:33
Truthfully, I think it depends on the army. My last game I played my Traitor Guard against my friend with Tau, and he won first turn to which he set about wiping out around half of my troops (seeker missiles FTL). If I had gone first, perhaps I would've had a better chance, but who knows?

Obviously, when playing Daemons it really doesn't matter. With Chaos Marines, it depends on the army I'm using. World Eaters, I tend to keep all of my Troops in Rhinos, so I'd prefer to go first and pop smoke. Death Guard, I go footslogging so I prefer second turn.

11-09-2009, 04:40
It's different for every army. If your army is mostly in reserve, 2nd turn is best. If you're taking a Drop Pod list and your opponents have troops on the table, 1st turn is best.

11-09-2009, 04:45
As always - it depends. Army, mission, plan...these all come into play. :)

11-09-2009, 04:49
I think it really does depend on the armies involved and the mission type.

I've noticed with IG, unless my opponent is holding everything in reserve, going first is still pretty crucial, especially against a mechanized opponent so they don't get a chance to pop smoke before I can shoot them out of transports and then battlecannon the squad that pops out.

With my Eldar I almost always go 2nd and hold everything in reserve, essentially popping a first turn advantage after denying an opponent 2 shooting phases.

With my CSM's, it depends on the opponent. If I'm facing a really shooty opponent I still want to go first so I can close some range and pop smoke. If I'm facing an assault oriented army, going 2nd usually ends up better as I can usually get in some shooting and get a charge off on them sooner.

big squig
11-09-2009, 04:50
Hmm, while what army you're playing does matter, in objective missions, at least from my experience, going second gives you pretty massive advantage. Especially if you have troops that can be rapidly redeployed.

11-09-2009, 05:19
With IG, I usually find that it's best if I cripple them in them first two turns, as the game will invariably get worse for me the more my opponent gets in amongst my army. I've found that if I can cripple my opponent in the first two turns with my shooting before they can get amongst my dudes and get krak grenades into tanks, I can take objectives at my leisure. It's all about the first two turns of shooting, and soldifying it on that all important turn 3.

11-09-2009, 05:30
I think that 2nd turn is better because you have the last chance to win the game. Alhough it does depend on the army.

11-09-2009, 06:54
with my Guard I love to go first go ahead and try to take my objective last turn...if you have someone left :D

with my SM I like to go second as I use mostly bikes I can go for the last second objective grab or contesting

my necrons...havent played them a whole lot never truly thought about it

11-09-2009, 07:01
I like going 2nd

It lets you respond to your opponent's deployment and you always get the last move to take objectives and kill points

11-09-2009, 07:18
Unless facing a gunline, I like to go second with my Orks. (gunlines are so boring to play against that I avoid this kind of games anyway)

Not only does it give a last turn advantage, but it also helps to bring people in range of my guns in the first few turns. It's also easier to get the charge this way (think of draughts... He moves, I move, He moves, I eat him alive :D)

11-09-2009, 07:30
Going to have to throw another vote for "depends on the army"

11-09-2009, 21:39
Going second gives an amazing advantage to the demon player. The opponent loses a turn of shooting and assaulting you, you get to decide your army halves after the opponent deploys, declares their reserves, declares how Reserves will arrive, and moves on all their units (in Dawn of War). And the Daemon player can still seize objectives on the last turn. I've found that forcing daemons to go first can really screw them up unless they play all-Tzeentch or a dedicated Kairos list. (Kairos + 16 Bloodcrushers = omgwtfbbq!!!)

With my Night Lords, I can take it either way, as I can go first and get my smoke launchers off before the other guy can shoot, and if I go second I can use my Rhinos that are still active for last turn objective snags / denial. It's all good.

With Tyranids, it's all about going first. The change to allow universal running makes last-turn objective snags with Gaunts pretty moot, and most times the Tyranid player doesn't have to worry about having their Gaunts knocked off the objective because the opponent usually has more pressing matters to attend to. And even if the Gaunts do get knocked off the objective, they just Without Number back onto it. Thus, Tyranids don't really lose out too much from Turn 1, but they gain one extra turn of not being shot. Now that Carnifexes and Tyrants can run, this puts much heavier pressure on the opponent.

11-09-2009, 21:51
As always - it depends. Army, mission, plan...these all come into play. :)

Unless you're me. ;)

I find that getting to fortune up my Wraithguard before being shot to pieces is essential! Getting that last turn to scramble for objectives is not as great for me as my army is too slow to get there anyway. :p

11-09-2009, 21:56
Depends on the army, but my Guard fairly much always want to be going first.

If it's kill points, then going first is an advantage for me, exceptagainst the all reserves type lists.

If it's a mission, then the advantage in crippling the enemy- hitting transports before SMF and smokes especially- normally outweights the potential for last turn objective strikes, which random game lengths have devalued anyway.

11-09-2009, 23:47
A couple of trends already becoming apparent in this thread.

Shooty armies like prefer to go first; they need to look at doing as much damage as possible in the initial opening rounds of the game.

Daemons or armies with heavy reserves probably want to go second, basically writing off their opponent's first turn of shooting.

Speedy armies that rely on objective grabbing/contesting typically appreciate going second for that last-minute take and hold.

12-09-2009, 00:41
The good thing about 5th ed is that you know who'll most likely go first during set up. That takes most of the risk of loosing first turn out of the equation (ie you can set up in hiding or reserves) and leaves the playing field a bit more even.

Add in the compulsory random game lenght and you've got the opposite of 4th ed: instead of not knowing who'll go first during setup and knowing exactly which turn will be the last we now know who'll go first, but won't have a clue which turn is the last until we get to the end. That means less first turn massacres and less last turn super grabs; ie more time actually spent playing the game (ie toy soldiers pretending to kill each other) and that's good. Except for the major reserves proliferation which is just getting excessive of course, but that's another topic.

12-09-2009, 01:40
As a Necron Player I usually like to go second. First, it gives me a huge advantage in reacting to my opponents deployment. 2ndly as a short range army, it ensures that something is in range to fire at. Lastly, Necrons aren't the best at holding objectives, but we are awesome at contesting. Last minute wraiths or scarabs can turn the game around.

12-09-2009, 02:43
Playing Guard, I want to go first.
Playing my Deathwing, i want to go second.
Just to watch the other players face when the "other 3 squads?!?" teleport onto the board, after having killed 2-3 termys with long range plasma...

12-09-2009, 03:01
when i break out my alpha legion i like to go first, mainly because i take 3 squads of infiltrating chosen and i like them to get in there with 1st turn melta gun shots

death guard? usually 1st so i can get my rhinos in moving

deffwing? first as its a tanka mob and really needs to get in assault

guard? first so i can commence saturation bombing before my tanks get targeted

12-09-2009, 03:23
Depends what army I'm playing against, what list I'm playing, mission, deployment, what I know of the player I'm playing against etc.

Against IG, Tau, and the other shooters I usually want to go first, so I can close in on them as soon as possible.

Against close combat armies that try to rush you as soon as possible (orks with bunches of boyz in trukks, khorne CSM, etc.) I like to go second, mainly because their shooting is usually weak, and because it allows me to use my reserves better (I like to have my multimelta attack bikes and mm/hf speeders in reserve, so against close combat armies they usually arrive right on time and place where they're needed), etc.

Against tyranids, on the other hand, I prefer going first because then I can usually get to kill an MC or two before it even gets to do anything, etc.

There is really no answer to this question. It's very situational.

12-09-2009, 12:20
If you play as Necrons you will ALWAYS want to go first unless your opponent is Chaos Demons

12-09-2009, 13:24
My GK and regular DA (and RW) like to go first to get into better positions and start laying down some fire while scrambling for cover, my DW always prefer to go second as the opponent pretty much wastes a turn trying to kill almost nothing in particular (except maybe a land raider hiding behind cover in my deployment zone). My Nids on the other hand always prefer to go first so they can close in on their kills before taking casualties.

12-09-2009, 15:45
Go first and hope your opponent does not sieze the initiative - really hate it when this happens!!

I guess it depends on the mission and the army you are using but in general I would have to say that the advantage is with the player that takes the first turn.

12-09-2009, 20:30
Generally I wish to go second because then I get to see the enemies deployment and can minimize the effectiveness of his deployment. I also find that most players I have played against think like this as well.

Lord Cook
12-09-2009, 21:16
With my mechanized Imperial Guard I prefer going second.

My best shooting is mainly short ranged, so I lose little by not getting a first turn when you're still out of range. By going second I get to deploy second, which is a huge advantage, and I get the last turn for objective grabbing. Lastly, I've still got a chance of stealing the initiative if I feel the need, and I tend to be very jammy with getting that six.

gunlines are so boring to play against that I avoid this kind of games anyway

Has it ever occurred to you that armies that just charge across the board as fast as possible (like, say, Orks) can be just as boring? :eyebrows: