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Max1mum
11-09-2009, 09:27
right i have always build my army's with the idea not to spend -to- many points on hero's

My hero's are always in support of my army, not the other way around. And i have had a reasonable amount of succes with this.

now i always want to take more and bigger hero's ..and generaly find my self having to choose between one or two options or having a trimmed down lord ..or not even a lord ( on 2250 points )

.

but this months white dwarf battle report triggered a bit of curiosity.

Both army's there had ( by my standard ) massive amount of points in their hero's ...

the dark elf's ran 47 % of their points into hero's and the orcs 33% ....

What do you find a recent % your self ? and now i know people will say "depends on your army"

but i play WoC (atm) i also have a We army ...and i know that in the future...i will play dwarfs ..:P ( eventualy )

eyescrossed
11-09-2009, 09:33
About 45% I'd say. And I play WoC.

Condottiere
11-09-2009, 09:38
It's possible to invest upto 50% plus of your points in heroes, but that's a lot of eggs in very few baskets; dangerous, if your opponent has an inkling of your intentions.

xsamx
11-09-2009, 13:06
In my opinion WoC need a large investment in heroes...for example at 2k+ points, you need a Battle Standard Bearer, and then either enough mages to go magic heavy, or at least a solid CC lord to be able to stand a chance of winning.

So if you go with the Lord and BSB youre looking at around 500+ points MINIMUM (imo this is the worst choice)

And if you go with the BSB and then 3+ mages, one of which is a soceror lord, youre around 50%

If you use special chars, then youre again looking at around 1k points (50%) of your force on heroes. In the case of WoC i dont think this is unreasonable as i feel both fluff and our list dictate that we should revolve around several formiddable characters. The army is supposed to be full of individuals seeking glory afterall.

If i was to play empire or other, similar armies, where troops can play a pivotal role, and heroes are much cheaper pointswise, then i would spend a lot less. But as WoC i feel heroes will always be a big point-sink if you intend to remain comepetative.

PeG
11-09-2009, 14:40
My most frequent army is WE and I usually spend less on characters

Normally I play alter+ HoD, helm of the hunt
Branchwraith annoyance + cluster of radiants
Spellsinger lvl 1 2 scrolls

Sometimes BSB with warbanner (if I decide to use a combat list otherwise he stays at home)

approx 20-30 % in characters

It goes up if I use an ancient or in the very rare occasions that I field a forest dragon lord

Drachen_Jager
11-09-2009, 16:15
I generally prefer to keep it under 25% with WoC. The only reason I'd ever consider more is if I wanted to go magic heavy, but I've always cringed at the thought of cutting back on my troops by enough to pay for all that magic.

Characters can add some punch where and when you need it but they're not going to win many games all by themselves (at least not WoC characters, maybe a Bloodthirster or a Slann backed by 3 skink priests on stegadons).

Kalec
11-09-2009, 16:31
WoC can get by with very little points spent on characters, since they don't need the leadership or combat help.

Drachen_Jager
11-09-2009, 18:17
It also helps that a Chaos Knight will kick some other armies combat heroes all around the battlefield.

Jiggy
11-09-2009, 18:24
It also helps that a Chaos Knight will kick some other armies combat heroes all around the battlefield.
Just thinking of this makes me laugh.
Empire captain
three attacks, strength 4 (6 with a 2hander) and WS 5
Chaos khorne chosen
three attacks, strength 4 (6 with a 2hander) and WS 6
And that is before he rolls on the eye of the gods table.

Even the empire general is not any more killy

The Red Scourge
11-09-2009, 18:57
I'm gonna play a 1K this weekend with 87% invested in heroes - okay I'm cheating a little bit, as one is a shaggoth, but it's going to be a hoot :D


Just thinking of this makes me laugh.
Empire captain
three attacks, strength 4 (6 with a 2hander) and WS 5
Chaos khorne chosen
three attacks, strength 4 (6 with a 2hander) and WS 6
And that is before he rolls on the eye of the gods table.

Even the empire general is not any more killy

Empire general + VHS = dead bloodthirster.

Khorne chosen = snack for 'thirster :rolleyes:

Neth
11-09-2009, 19:05
I play WoC and usually keep it under 30% in 2250 point games. Usually a lvl 4 with a lvl 2 for help.

MarcoPollo
11-09-2009, 19:36
I think keeping your hero costs to a minimum is the best way to go. I don't like to go over 35% for characters and usually try to keep it below 30%. I find that I forget to use all the tricks I have for my characters. Often times I look back on my games in think about all the missed opportunities I had due to so many things to remember. Instead I would prefer to use more units. It helps in the deployment phase. Often a unit will out-perfom a character for the same amount of points in a similar role.

Of course, there are somethings that you need characters for. Especially magic. And in list heavy on magic, you are obliged to use up a lot of points. For me, I am not too fond of hero-hammer.

ARabidNun
11-09-2009, 19:53
I have noticed a bit of character creep in the last few releases of army books as more and more emphasis relies on "outfitting" your opponent similar to, I believe it was the 4th or 5th edition of magic rules, where there was a seperate magic book provided and suddenly eveyone was throwing magic like they were candy corns.

I am not saying I don't support putting 50% of your total points into characters, hey if your opponent gets off a lucky spell, or canon shot all the better for them, but I support 2,000 point games where the charaters have 500 points +/- in magic like I support the concept of the world being flat.

Power characters like that are fun when your opponents are thinking the same, or for tournaments without fairness ratings, but the game is more interesting with strategy through troops and placement. Anyone can smash through a goblin army with a Bloodthirster, but can you beat that Bloodthirster with a unit of core troops?

artyboy
11-09-2009, 23:50
My vampires are usually around 45-50% of my list. The lord alone is almost 25% of the army. It's how the list is built and it's pretty much necessary.

Bretonnians are a lot less character dependent. The characters in that list usually add up to 30% or so.

Lizardmen can be very character heavy or pretty light. A slann is going to cost about the same as a vamp lord and you pretty much have to take a unit of temple guard with it which will almost double the price for the unit. If you're not going to take a slann then you'll probably end up taking some engines of the gods.

Bauknefer
12-09-2009, 00:55
I play WoC and invest almost 35% into characters at 2k

GenerationTerrorist
12-09-2009, 01:26
In gaming club 2250pt games with my Tzeentch WoC army, I tend to field around 1000pts in my Characters - Lvl4, BSB, a pair of Lvl2's.

The rest is made up with Knights and Marauder Horsemen and Warhounds.

Dexter099
12-09-2009, 01:34
About 1/6 or 1/7 is spent on heroes in a 2250 WoC army.

Alathir
12-09-2009, 02:58
I steadfastly refuse to spend any more than 40% on heroes in a 2250 game (unless I decide to try a dragon). My preference is to spend less than 750 points on all my characters. I play Bretonnia and High Elves as well.

Necromancy Black
12-09-2009, 03:42
About 30-50% of my points will be characters in my Lizardmen army. Then about another 25% on Saurus warriors.

Condottiere
12-09-2009, 04:29
If you could win more consistently with a low investment in characters, those percentages would start dropping.

But it's also a method of efficient application of force and minimizing financial investment in any one army.

wolf40k
12-09-2009, 04:59
I personally run 28% in my 2000pt Orc list. I have no goblins and orcs hit hard by themselves.

My lizard men run 38% but that's just because I wanted to field a carosaur, not that slann ar much cheaper.


My WoC army that has yet to be built invests 40% into characters(I only have 1) but that is because it is going to be conversion heavy and I am very lazy, so I don't want to build a lot.:p

Philip Bright
12-09-2009, 10:18
The DE army I play:


1000pts: 29% characters, 47% core, 14% special, 10% rare
1500pts: 29% characters, 42% core, 16% special, 13% rare
2250pts: 28% characters, 34% core, 21% special, 17% rare


I also don't use any characters from the lord section since I don't find them wroth the points for my DE army.

Brothersir
12-09-2009, 11:51
The most recent list I made was 56% Core, 11% Special, 11% Rare and 22% Characters.

This is for Orcs and Goblins and I think its fair, although I would love to spend even less on characters. I'm not a big fan of them. (Granted, I think O&G magic items are pretty darn weak, as well).

TigToad
12-09-2009, 21:55
I consistantly run about 30% characters at almost all point levels. I have 4 armies and find I run the fewest points in characters with my Warriors of Chaos. and Dark Elves. The troops don't need a lot of character support. Orcs and Ogres vary the most in how much i run, but usually 700 points in characters is plenty in 2250.

Shadowfax
13-09-2009, 05:50
When using my Wood Elves < 2000 points: ~25%
When using my Wood Elves > 2000 points: ~35%
When using my Vampire Counts at any level: ~40+% (and thinking about going even higher)

Ξ H2O Ξ
13-09-2009, 13:25
I tend to run about 25-35% in my WoC army. If u want a hardcore Hero-Hammer run a cheap Exalted and a couple lvl1 fire Sorcerers, or give ur exalted book of secrets, and hope real hard for Flaming sword of Rhuin then u have a nice Hero-hammer and still D-scrolls and D-dice. Fun times.

Darkangeldentist
13-09-2009, 21:12
My vampire lists tend to 45% characters. The lord is close to 25% of the army at 2000pts.

tarrasque
13-09-2009, 21:40
i try to use al the pints i can in heroes and lords.
i'm playing tomb kings and our heroes is what keeps us standing quite literly

Drachen_Jager
14-09-2009, 02:10
i try to use al the pints i can in heroes and lords.
i'm playing tomb kings and our heroes is what keeps us standing quite literly

Personally I save the pints for myself. I can't see how the models could enjoy them much... :P

Appoloclypse
14-09-2009, 06:43
i generaly have around 30% of my points in characters, in my lizardmen. currently the same for my vc but i've only played 1000 point games with them so far.

Duke_Lionberg
14-09-2009, 10:01
I play Vampires, so it's just like every other vampire player has stated here - 45-50% in heroes, former true if special chars are allowed.

Max1mum
14-09-2009, 13:08
so the general opinion is that i'm not a idiot :P ...;-)

..and that those guys with there armies in the dwarf are playing unbalanced armies ?

....and yet they are called 'champions' i do wonder how "our" armies would do against their armies....

But thank you all for the input ;-) ..

Blaklabel
14-09-2009, 14:20
Gotta say my 65 pt Goblin Warboss is a lot of my army!
Although the 535 pt Grey seer makes up for that i suppose.

ARabidNun
14-09-2009, 15:34
I think the general idea is it depends on which army you are using since late edition armies are becoming more reliant on beefed up characters such as Tomb Kings and Orc & Goblins, but armies like VC you need to protect your general at all costs and you can afford to spend all available points on just characters because you can create nearly double your army size in a few turns.

I have been playing around with a goblin army for the last few games and without some good items my characters would be squashed in a heartbeat, and you can't say no to a great squig. Its impossible, I've tried.

My VC I tend to cut back alot more for games outside of tournaments to keep it fun and keep to around 30%.

Lizardmen are in a similar wagon if you are using a Slaan since 1: he isnt cheap, and 2: you want to keep him alive.

My dwarves are not as bad now as they were in 3rd or 4th ed. when there was alot of nasty rune combinations available. Since dwarfs dont have access to alot of optional upgrades apart from magic items they are more limited.

Appoloclypse
15-09-2009, 03:37
Lizardmen are in a similar wagon if you are using a Slaan since 1: he isnt cheap, and 2: you want to keep him alive.

I have a slann in my army, the best way to keep him alive is a large unit of temple guard.

Ravenousone2
16-09-2009, 01:54
I Run Vampire Counts and in my basic list ( for all comers) i run exactly 1210 pts. worth of Lord and 3 heroes in my 2250 list. Making it a bit over 50%. Thats not too far over normal tho considering in VC your Vampires really are the whole of your army.