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View Full Version : Lizards vs Brets hep!



Rannock
11-09-2009, 11:38
Hi all,

My brother and I player 3 games yesterday me using my new Bretonnians and him using his lizards. We were both using good (competative lists) but he couldn't seem to win a single combat or stand a charge from any unit of knights.

My list 2250

Lord on pegasus rerolling hits and wounds on the charge, 4+ ward
Paladin BSB, War Banner, Virtue of duty warhorse
Paladin on horse gauntlet of the duel / virtue of confidence
2x lvl 1 scroll caddies

2x8 Knights of the Realm
1x8 Knights Errant
1 unit of bowmen
2x3 Pegasus Knights
6 Grail Knights

His List

Slaan, extra power dice with each spell, know all spells from a lore and something else

EOTG
Skink Priest
Skink with warspear on ancient stegadon

2 blocks of about 15 saurus with spears
1 large mob of temple guard
3x10 skink skirmishers
some terradons

He used his skinks to screen his saurus and his terradons to harrass my knights errant. I killed the priest off the EOTG with the silver mirror (dispel scroll does 1 S6 hit to caster) and a lucky arrow 1 unit of kotor into each spear block and the Errant into the temple guard with a unit of pegasus supporting them both spear units were cut down in 1 turn and the temple guard were crippled and mopped up later.The other unit of pegasus cleared out the skink skirmishers. The grail knights stuck in combat with the 2nd steggadon most of the game.

What could he have done to stop the bretts charging through them, or is my list just horrible and cheesy? I don't want to be the guy nobody wants to play because of a broken list!

Onisuzume
11-09-2009, 17:08
Salamanders, I think...
If he ran 2 units of 3 salamanders, he'd have a lot of flames to spew at your knights.

As well as placing the spearmen behind walls/hedges/fences, while the spearmen would still strike last, your knights would've lost all benefits from charging.

Gaargod
11-09-2009, 19:08
Slann should have done more. Against that heavy magic, he should burn through your scrolls in 2 turns (spirit of forge taking one a turn, uranon's thunderbolt probably draining one) or lose heroes/knights left right and centre. Bane Head on BSB + Rule of Burning iron + decent roll = 3 dispel dice gone or dead BSB.

Lose one block of saurus, boost the other to 18 strong. The TG don't really need to be bigger than 16 strong.

With the extra points, get some more flankers (either boost skink priest to EotG or get some saurus cav).

Skinks and terradons need to redirect the hell out of your charges. If you get stuck in a combat (LD9 coldblooded rerollable, not exactly hard...) the EotG's blast power and Bret's non charge useless hitting should spell doom for them.

Its a strong list, and your brother's list isn't totally optimized (pretty good start tho), but even so i suspect some serious bad luck/tactical unbalance.


Incidentally, although salamanders are great, they're not THAT amazing. 225pts for 3 is a lot - you can get a whole unit of 6 saurus cav with banner for 230. Bret leadership is pretty good, but start messing about with psychology and they run away. As for defended obstacles, yeah that'll screw them over, but its extremely harsh to take them, as its not something you get usually.

MarcoPollo
11-09-2009, 20:44
The biggest problem that Brets have is when their lances have to change directions. Thus having a few small skink deflectors will stall the big lances. He should invest in two small 10 skink (50 pt) units and use them to deflect charges away from your more vulerable pieces.

This will cause bret lances to be unable to charge (or charge into bad situations).

Also, he could take items that ignore A/S.

The big saurus block is a big fat whale for those knights. They chew units like that up bretty badly.

hlaine larkin
12-09-2009, 00:29
i think he got unlucky- maybe he should up the saurus units to 20 lizard units (drop terradons against brets- they are pretty useless) make the slaan the BSB so any unit within x inches re roll failed break tests and use his leadership. make sure his saurus have spears and he should hold charge, at which point its his combat about 80% of the time :D

also- i would reccomend he take a scar vet with burnign blade of chotec and maiming shield- gives his scar vet 5 str 5 attacks at -4 to your save- so you are on a 6+ armour and a 5+ ward i believe- he will take a chunk out of any armoured unit (except dragon princes fire + dragon armour = bad for attacker)


i owned a similar list to your brets with-

slaan (knows all,extra dice,bsb,blood stauette,warbanner,cupped hands)

20 temple guard

20 saurus spears

20 saurus spears

EOTG

scar vet (burning blade/maiming shield)

2x 10 skinks

artyboy
12-09-2009, 01:31
Saurus spears should be run 6x3. If the unit can survive the charge then they'll probably break the knights on the next turn. More stegadons would be very difficult for a bret list to deal with. Skink skirmishers can inflict a lot of pain for very little cost, too. Deny them the charge.

AussieSocks
12-09-2009, 14:20
Cold-Blooded
Leadership 9
BSB Re-rolls.

Lizards were designed almost specifically to hold the charges of Brettonian/ Chaos Horse Cult/ Empire Knight Chapter armies.

Tell him to line skinks up in front of saurus/ TG, any barricades = instant win for him.
then tell him to S+S or Flee, either way lining him up to charge next turn.

Warbanner + flank charges + outnumber should make it almost impossible for him to lose. Once the first round of combat is over he has like 4x your attacks, at a higher strength value and each saurus costs less points.

His Slaan should easily wreck any damsels in a protracted magical duel.

His race is kinda designed to wreck your race. IMHO, if he can't beat you once in 10 games and he genuinely tries different unit structures and deployment types.... you're just a better player man :D

ewar
13-09-2009, 01:29
He needs to make good use of the engine of the gods - that will chew through bret knights horribly. He was very unlucky to lose it in the first game.

He should use his terradons or magic missiles to rout the bowmen (easily done) then hold the engine slightly back from his lines so it can't be charged. Take the charge with temple guard and then in the next turn burning alignment the knights to death (no AS, only 6+ ward and wounding on 3s... basically a bretonnians worst knightmare).

The slann should be taking lore of metal and casting spirit of the forge every turn, which will draw all dispel scrolls. Or take beasts for Beast Cowers (that is painful for my brets).

Lastly, as it seems you're quite new to WFB, a lot of people forget that Pegasus knights don't break ranks as they're flyers still, despite being flying cavalry - just something to remember when flanking with them.

Play a few more games and he should realise that brets are a walk in the park for lizardmen.

hlaine larkin
13-09-2009, 08:33
Cold-Blooded
Leadership 9
BSB Re-rolls.

Lizards were designed almost specifically to hold the charges of Brettonian/ Chaos Horse Cult/ Empire Knight Chapter armies.

Tell him to line skinks up in front of saurus/ TG, any barricades = instant win for him.
then tell him to S+S or Flee, either way lining him up to charge next turn.

Warbanner + flank charges + outnumber should make it almost impossible for him to lose. Once the first round of combat is over he has like 4x your attacks, at a higher strength value and each saurus costs less points.

His Slaan should easily wreck any damsels in a protracted magical duel.

His race is kinda designed to wreck your race. IMHO, if he can't beat you once in 10 games and he genuinely tries different unit structures and deployment types.... you're just a better player man :D


skins redirection is over powered- you just run your knights within 7 inches of the skinks- the skinks wont charge you and the saurus cant cos skinks block the charge, next turn you charge and by average should catch him with your charge, you go full 14 et voila you are behind the lizard line!

MarcoPollo
14-09-2009, 19:07
skins redirection is over powered- you just run your knights within 7 inches of the skinks- the skinks wont charge you and the saurus cant cos skinks block the charge, next turn you charge and by average should catch him with your charge, you go full 14 et voila you are behind the lizard line!

I partially agree with this. You won't win games with skink redirection, and you can stall your own advance. But being able to redirect a large lance for a turn can let you exploit shooting or magic for one extra round. You should be able to win the magic and shooting phases.

In most cases a double lance charge is going to break pretty much anything that isn't stubborn or unbreakable. But, if you are only faced with one lance, you can have a good expectation of holding. Also, since lances have quite long flanks and require alot of space to wheel, you can really mess up the plans of a bretonian cavalry advance.

I'd also say that having some scouts is good to march block the cav advance. The more you can stagger the eventual charge, the better off you'll be.

hlaine larkin
14-09-2009, 19:55
I partially agree with this. You won't win games with skink redirection, and you can stall your own advance. But being able to redirect a large lance for a turn can let you exploit shooting or magic for one extra round. You should be able to win the magic and shooting phases.

In most cases a double lance charge is going to break pretty much anything that isn't stubborn or unbreakable. But, if you are only faced with one lance, you can have a good expectation of holding. Also, since lances have quite long flanks and require alot of space to wheel, you can really mess up the plans of a bretonian cavalry advance.

I'd also say that having some scouts is good to march block the cav advance. The more you can stagger the eventual charge, the better off you'll be.



i agree- if it is 2 lances- redirect your heart out :D the lance formation screwed the last bret player i played over, he had a nice long lance- so my stegadon which charged his errant knights in the flank, killed them all managed to just clip the back knight- i have never seen a brettonian cure cascading charges til then :D


scout wise i love chameleon skinks because brettonian playes rely so much on winnign the charge- many is the time i have seen players wait at abotu 9 inches away, letting me magic them to hades to get combiend charges