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Da Crusha
11-09-2009, 23:30
I want to know if I am doing this correctly. if I want a character to leave a unit, I can have him leave from any place in the unit, march over to another unit, and then have him join and put him any where in the front rank of the new unit.

leighr3029
11-09-2009, 23:43
yes I believe that is correct.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-09-2009, 00:00
You're still subject to the characters total move from his starting position to his final position. Otherwise, yes.

Da Crusha
12-09-2009, 09:49
You're still subject to the characters total move from his starting position to his final position. Otherwise, yes.

oh ok that was going to be another question..... still sucks for dwarfs though. what if a dwarf lord joins a unit from the back and doesn't have enough movement to make all the way to the front? would he stay at rear ranks?

Jetty Smurf
13-09-2009, 07:01
I believe that once they actually reach the unit (regardless of what part of the unit) they are counted as now part of that unit, and no longer require any more move to move within the unit.

So in the case of the character only being able to reach the back of the unit with his move, this is not a problem, as he will stop using his M value and just be moved automatically to the front.

I could, however, be wrong.

WLBjork
13-09-2009, 08:02
To join a unit a character has only to move so he is touching the unit. Once he has joined the unit, the character is automatically placed in the front rank.

Doesn't matter how much movement you have, the character goes in the front rank (assuming there is room).

TheDarkDaff
13-09-2009, 08:11
I believe that once they actually reach the unit (regardless of what part of the unit) they are counted as now part of that unit, and no longer require any more move to move within the unit.

I'd agree with this to a point. If the character gets to the back of a unit you put him in the front rank, which can make him move more than his M value. But i always measure his total movement to his finishing spot to work out how much movement he has left to move with his new unit.

Another side effect is that if the character marches to join a unit then the unit now counts as having marched that turn so no shooting.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-09-2009, 08:16
It's not legal.
BRB, page 74, left column, second paragraph:
The most important thing to remember when a character joins/leaves units as part of his move is that the character cannot use the fact he is joining/leaving units to extend his move beyond the distance he could have moved if he was simply moving on his own.As this rule is "The most important thing" it overrides WLBjork's quote, above.

EldarBishop
13-09-2009, 13:41
Right, you have to measure he characters complete movement starting point to ending point. (The character can NOT move more then its movement would normally allow).

Here's a pic (a bit extreme), but the red character could move to the new unit (7") but the blue character would have to move 22" so (s)he wouldn't be able to move to the new unit.

http://i29.tinypic.com/wguh3p.jpg

Foxbat
13-09-2009, 13:49
Another side effect is that if the character marches to join a unit then the unit now counts as having marched that turn so no shooting.
I'm not sure where to find this rule or clarification, can you provide a reference(s)?

TheDarkDaff
13-09-2009, 17:03
I'm not sure where to find this rule or clarification, can you provide a reference(s)?

Simple adding together of rules. The Character marched and is now part of the unit. ergo the unit (or at least part of it) has marched.

Foxbat
13-09-2009, 17:15
Interesting, in our gaming area we just treat the two incidents as separate events (i.e. movement before and after joining the unit). As for the movement limitation, the unit that the Character joined is limited to moving a distance that would not result in the Character’s total movement exceeding 2xM.

xragg
14-09-2009, 06:09
Think of skirmishers, if you only move 1 skirmisher from the back to the front of the pack via a march, the whole unit has considered to have marched. Even though only 1 model has moved, it counts against them all. Same is true for moving in general. If only 1 model moves, all in the unit get the movement penalty to shooting.

Once a character joins a unit, he is bound to the rules of a unit just as much as the "joe blow" trooper is, except where specifically noted of course.

WLBjork
14-09-2009, 07:54
It's not legal.As this rule is "The most important thing" it overrides WLBjork's quote, above.

They use that phrase a lot.

But it still happens:

The "free" wheel in from a charge

The outside rearmost model in a wheel

I'm sure there's a couple of other events I've forgotten about, but the truth is that even though it is "the most important thing", it gets ignored.

This is one more such even.

Atrahasis
14-09-2009, 08:27
You're using examples that are outside the context of the quotation.

The rules for joining and leaving units say that it is the most important thing to remember when joining or leaving units. The fact that there are exceptions outwith the context of joining and leaving units that break the rule is irrelevant.

@xragg - The BRBFAQ says that a character moving within a unit does not mean the unit counts as moving.

Nurgling Chieftain
14-09-2009, 08:33
They use that phrase a lot.You were still wrong. :rolleyes:

xragg
14-09-2009, 17:12
@xragg - The BRBFAQ says that a character moving within a unit does not mean the unit counts as moving.

Yep, that would be one of the specifically noted exceptions.

Foxbat
15-09-2009, 02:22
I think the recent Q&A (Feb 2009 Q&A pg 1) comment on maximum movement may pose a problem for the “if a Character marched to join the unit, the unit is defined as marching” view. Why? It’s open to inconsistent application.

First, when I read the Q&A, several points seem to jump out:
(1) GW is aware that it is possible, through a combination of rules, create a situation where a model within a unit could move a greater distance than the unit and exceed 2x its movement rate;
(2) GW chooses not to ban using a combination of rules to create such situations; rather they decide to place a hard limit on the maximum distance of travel for any model within a unit as 2xM;
(3) A model that moves up to 2x its movement due to a combination of rules is defined as “moving fast” not “marching”.

Now, let’s consider the following arrangement:
A HE Noble on an Elvin steed (no barding) is 5” behind a unit of Lothern Sea Guard. The front edge of the front rank of the LSG is just shy of 9” directly in front of the Character’s base.

Movement Sequence 1:
The Character is moved first such that it touches that back of the LSG unit. By the rules, he can be placed in the front rank. As the model did not have to move more than 9” to take-up his front rank position, he is not defined to have marched. Using the Q&A, it’s ok to use a combination of rules to create a situation where a model within a unit moves more than the unit, but is not allowed to exceed 2xM. So, I can move the LSG forward 5”. As the Character did not move more than 18”, the combination of rules is ok. Further, while the Character may have moved “fast”, the unit is not defined to have marched due to this fast moving model within the unit and the LSG unit is still able to shoot.

Movement Sequence 2:
Rather than then moving the Character first, I move the LSG forward 5” first. I then move the Noble the 10” to reach the rear of the unit and just under 4” to the front of the unit (same total distance of just under 14” as before). However, this time the Noble would have needed to have marched to reach the rear of the unit. Now using the current view, the unit is defined to have marched and can’t shoot.

Why should the outcomes be different?

xragg
15-09-2009, 03:01
(3) A model that moves up to 2x its movement due to a combination of rules is defined as “moving fast” not “marching”.



Where does it state this?

nosferatu1001
15-09-2009, 15:04
Where does it state this?

Nowehere: moving fast sounds a lot like 6th ed skirmisher rules where they could always move 2M and were not march blocked as the never "March"ed

Foxbat
16-09-2009, 00:00
(3) A model that moves up to 2x its movement due to a combination of rules is defined as “moving fast” not “marching”.

Where does it state this?
Refer to the Feb 2009 Q&A pg 1 where it clearly states “...which is as fast as they can possibly move”. It then goes on to say “Following this principle, ...” meaning attempting to move a unit faster than as defined in the paragraph before (i.e. running speed or 2xM) is not allowed.

It should be noted that nowhere in this response did GW indicate that any model within a unit or the unit that contains any model that moved “fast” is then treated as having marched.

nosferatu1001
16-09-2009, 11:52
Huh? That's taking things entirely out of context. Clearly if a character marches into a unit part of the unit must have marched. They probably didnt clarify it here as that was not the question asked.....however it is trivial.

Here they used "as fast as" as a phrase and never used "fast move" which is what you paraphrased.

There is no "running speed" - there is march, charge or normal move.

Foxbat
17-09-2009, 02:16
There is no "running speed" - there is march, charge or normal move.
I think that the referenced response in the Feb 2009 Q&A was specifically intended to give guidance on a type of permitted movement by models within a unit that is faster than “normal” movement, but does not result in the unit being classified as marching.

The problem I had been looking at was the proposal that if a Character marches to join a unit, the unit is then treated as having marched. I contend that given the response in the Q&A, the movement status of a Character doesn’t have any impact on the movement status of the unit on the turn that a Character joins the unit. The reason is that once a Character joins a unit it is treated like every other model in the unit and by default can, due to a combination of movement rules (i.e. Character moves to join unit + unit movement), exceed its normal movement up to 2xM to achieve its final position without causing the unit to be treated as marching.

As for the movement status of the Character, this is a different matter that I was really not focusing on.