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Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 02:05
im going through my vraks books and writing up some lists and was just wondering if it said anywhere that you could combine vraks and codex CSM (or any of the variant lists and their parent codex)

so my army i was planning on building up is a variation of my old death guard army reworked as the apostles of contagion

the core of the army is 4 squads of plague marines, all have champions with power fists and are in rhinos, all taken from codex CSM and legal

i was also going to include 3 blight drones as my fast attack choice and a squad of 5 plague ogryns as an elite choice and the special character necrosius (sorcerer) as my hq

is the legal?

Nonalyth
12-09-2009, 02:10
No. Not even close. Saying that, if your opponent says you can use it go ahead, but don't expect to use it in any tournaments. My advice would be to chat to everyone you usually play on a casual basis, and see if they'd mind playing against the list.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 02:21
thats a downer, was looking through the army list at the back of the book and yeah ogryns are in it as an elite but neither necrosius or the blight drones are listed in it, necrosius doesnt even have a place in any force orginisation slot (not listed as an hq or anything, i can only assume he is) and blight drones arnt listed in the army list at the back, only in the glossary where it says they are a fast attack choice in a daemon army or a CSM army that contains at least one unit of plague marines

any page number or faq the expressly states "you can not combine the IA books and a codex"

i dont do tourney play, any games i play would likely be at the local GW store

HunterSkunter
12-09-2009, 02:31
Its probably somewhere, but this seems like one of those "You really need to ask?" things, the entire point of the Codeces is to have books specific to armies, if you want to mix things, just ask for permission from the people you are playing against. I guess its more of a discretion thing, in my eyes.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 02:47
true enough, it might just be a "must ask opponents permission to use forgeworld" kinnda thing maybe?

people might see that sorcerer and orgryns and not knowing the rules decide against playing them? ill always include photo copies of the rules to keep it cool

and its not like the models are game breakingly overpowered: for an extra 40 points a could include typhus instead of necrosius and hes infinately better, blight drones are pretty much bs2 land speeders and those plague ogryns are pretty expensive, for that price i could take a land raider

Cadian144
12-09-2009, 02:49
Yeah...for tourneys it is not going to happen. But for a fun game maybe at a local GW or something, if you let people read your list prior to a game / playing I am sure you will find people who will play.

I am doing something similar with building a Talerian army with a small continget of Tau ( models and conversion coming soon to a thread here soon :D)

But i know it wont be legal, I am doing up a small codex in my spare time ( and the figures) for fun. I just like the idea of them and saw people had done similar things on line.

Still I hope to get them in a game here and there for fun. So on your end I think that is all you can hope for .

Would be a cool thing if GW put out a set of guidlines so you could sort of build your own codex. Not unlike the vehicle guides they had put out a few years back. Where you could build your own vehicle.

I think a few people would jump at a chance to build there own codex for a new race or marine chapter ect. More so if they could use it at a GW location...maybe not tournaments...?? Who knows.:D

Anyway Mannimarco good luck with this ;)

trolly
12-09-2009, 03:16
hi,

i'm wondering what the use of that FW books if i can't use it, dreadclaw for example.
in the tourney i mean.

cheers,
:D

Death_to_the_Xenos
12-09-2009, 03:30
The point of the forge world books is like an expansion to the normal game system

You can us the forge world units in some tournaments but u need to check to see whether it is allowed. (Most of these will be club run tournaments and not run by games workshop)

Had a tournament recently in Western Australia that u were allowed to take some forge world units.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 03:33
the consensus among a lot of people is you can only use forgeworld stuff if you ask your opponents permission first, seems a bit of a cop out after spending 40 odd quid on a book and a whole heap of money on one or two models only to be told "nooooo forgeworld i refuse to play that" so there you go, you have an expensive paperweight

a large part of the forgeworld refusal is people dont know the rules so will refuse it out of hand, to me this is a bit of a cop out: i dont know the eldar codex to well so by this logic i can refuse to play eldar etc

tourneys make up their own rules, use forgeworld models in friendlies and you should be cool

ehlijen
12-09-2009, 03:49
The primary purpose of forgeworld is to give you phantastic looking models of things GW doesn't really intend to offer you (or not to that quality). It is not in fact an addon to any codex to pick things from as if they were part of the codex.

That said, you could use count as to use those models as other, codex, things. Or have a chat with your friends to find the offending part in the rules and work around it.

There's also a big difference between saying you don't know a codex and you don't know the forgeworld rules for a particular unit. Codices are written as one piece and thus are intended to work with all the options contained within. Forge world books are written to suit models, regardless of whether those rules would then obey the intended archetypes of the codex. You are however free to say "I don't want to play against eldar", but that usually means "I don't want to play against you so I'm without a gaming partner until I find someone else". Whereas "I don't want to play against that unit" far less commonly contains the "therefore I won't play you at all" clause.

But in the end, if it's truly your friendly gaming club you should be able to get your friends to give those things at least a try. And if they don't like it, offer to modify the rules to make it fairer.

Charistoph
12-09-2009, 03:59
Sadly, the only time codeci specifically mention, even encourage, mixing is the old Space Wolves Codex and the Inquisition codeci.

Warsurge
12-09-2009, 05:05
Hmm, it isn't really "legal", but from my point of view it's ok with me. After all they are all Chaos so why not band together to make a mini Black Crusade? Imperium can band together so why can't Chaos? All in all so long as you ask your opponent or GW staff in advance and they say yes it should all be fine. I don't see why you should have to ask if you can use FW models seeing as they are models directly related to GW.

mughi3
12-09-2009, 05:22
any page number or faq the expressly states "you can not combine the IA books and a codex"

Ok let me give you a little run down....it's actually quite simple.


GW is a corporation and both the plastic 40K line and the FW line are part of the same company. FW units are generally variations of standard units with some exceptions legal to play in pick up games without permission.

Tourney organisers are specifically given permission to disallow FW units by GW.

The exceptions-
1
.super heavies, fliers, gargantuan creatures and titans-because these units have special rules both in and outside of apocalypse-as per GW your always going to want to let your opponant know what your planning on fielding so he can bring something to counter it.
2
.FW specific army lists and army specific units.
There are some units-like the mortis dread that is restricted to certain marine chapter/force as noted in thier profile(otherwise any "space marine" chapter would be able to use it)

There are also specific army lists that stand outside normal codex rules like elysians and DKOK. In an apocalypse game of course anything goes so you can mix and match to your hearts content. otherwise youre limited to the only legal allied codexes of demon/witch hunters who have special rules for allies.


Lets also not forget the final rule-nobody is forcing you to play the game, if you and your opponant agree to it then it is fair game.

Its a social activity-have some fun!

DuskRaider
12-09-2009, 06:54
Well... it would all be okay except for the Plague Ogryn, they're Renegade specific. However, it seems Necrosius is available to both Renegades (with his Plague Zombie rule) and CSM. Also, it states specifically that Blight Drones are a Fast Attack for both CSM and Daemons, so yes technically it is quite legal.

And about the whole "asking for permission" to use Forge World rules... I paid good money for these models / books, you better believe I'm using the stuff.

MadHatter
12-09-2009, 07:32
I will generally allow anyone to play with thier armies within reason. I am cool with allowing a mix army. In fact if you got a cool story behind why they are working together then I am all for it. As for super heavys and titans I think I would have to be a little more iffy with it. I do not care about how much maney you have into your models or the amount of loving detail to you put into painting them. I think it is because I do not carry my 80 - 100 dollor FW books to the game store. So if you are good with letting me read over the stats and make your book open to me while we are playing then I am more then likely to be cool with it.

But I say have fun that is why we are in the hobby, but if you want to play with forge world armies you need to be prepared to share your book for your opponent.

CrownAxe
12-09-2009, 09:06
Forge World hasn't ever been "official", it's basically just some extra things for fun

Ask your opponent

grissom2006
12-09-2009, 12:04
Forge World hasn't ever been "official", it's basically just some extra things for fun

Ask your opponent

Bold claim when you take into account the number of rules and units that GW has taken from FW and placed into the game.

But yes always ask permission to use and event organizers i'll happily play against anything from FW. I'd be calling the kettle black if i didn't as i have enough of their stuff.

Tonberry
12-09-2009, 12:14
I always used to chuck in random Vraksian units with the CSM codex in friendly games, if someone complains than they're a dick and not really worht playing against in the first place; the FW units are, if anything, underpowered, and simply used to add more fun and variety to a game.

LonelyPath
12-09-2009, 13:20
If it was me and I was allowed to glance over the rules before hand I'd happily allow it, though not everyone is as open to these things as I am. Best discuss it with your opponents and offer to show them the rules for what FW items you wish to field alongside your army. Of course, if you're planning to take them in Apocalypse games there's no problem at all ;)

I know a guy that wanted to field a old fashioned style Genestealer Cult army and mixed units from the Nids and IG codices, it was quite fun to go up against even if some people point blank refused to play against it since it didn't follow codex organisation.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 13:27
excellent, thanks guys

the plague ogryns have been dropped and replaced with a 10 man nurgle termy squad, 2 champs with twin lightning claws and 2 heavy flamers (plague ogryns really are that expensive)

ehlijen
12-09-2009, 13:33
Grimson:

Yes, many FW units have been added to codices...when those codices were rewritten to work with those extra rules and often with the rules changed quite a bit. Compare FW drop pods to SM ones. Or the valks. FW is very much a testbed and brainstorm department for new units. Some things get picked up into the new codices with refined rules, but not all of them.

Tonberry:

Blaming the other guy when the game doesn't happen might make you feel better, but you still failed to have a fun game. It's a fact that some FW things drastically change the way the game works and not every player wants to that to happen. Whether over or under powered isn't even the issue (and yes, FW has both kinds). The other player is as entitled to his opinion of the relevant FW rules as you are, and if he doesn't want to face them, just calling him names won't resolve anything.

I'm all for trying out new things, but not everyone is. Some people just like the game as it is.

Tonberry
12-09-2009, 13:45
Tonberry:

Blaming the other guy when the game doesn't happen might make you feel better, but you still failed to have a fun game. It's a fact that some FW things drastically change the way the game works and not every player wants to that to happen. Whether over or under powered isn't even the issue (and yes, FW has both kinds). The other player is as entitled to his opinion of the relevant FW rules as you are, and if he doesn't want to face them, just calling him names won't resolve anything.

I'm all for trying out new things, but not everyone is. Some people just like the game as it is.

Calling people names definitely makes you feel better :p

What I'm trying to say is that it's just a game and if someone doesn't like your particular brand of toy soldiers than they're taking it far too seriously.

ehlijen
12-09-2009, 14:06
And you, saying the game isn't worth playing if you don't get to use whatever you want without protest, are not taking it too seriously :p? Intended or not (presumably not?), that is what your previous post sounded like to me.

The fun is what counts, but that onus is on both players.

kaimarion
12-09-2009, 14:22
Anyone noticed how you can't use An'ggrath and Scabeithrax with CSM any more, it's a real kick in the nuts after buying a 120 model to find out you can no longer use it with your army. Plague ogryns are the **** they are as hard as nails and really pack a punch :D, if you used them in a mono-nurgle list I would have no problem with you using them.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 14:26
yep plague ogryns are what ogryns should have been, multiple attacks, FNP, wounding everybody on a 2+ regarless of toughness hehe but dang you do pay for them (see the termy unit i can afford just by dropping them)

those daemon lords are pretty much intended for apocalypse games (should be anyway as the cheapest of the 3 is stilll 666 points) where it doesnt matter what army you play, you can still take them

Corrode
12-09-2009, 14:36
There's an appalling number of people here think that their fun matters more than their opponent's fun.

Also: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1702641&postcount=14

LEGAL only applies to tournaments games against strangers, in which you should do your utmost to play by the rules. If you're playing with friends, 'legal' means absolutely ****-all unless you can't communicate with your group - in which case I'd say you aren't playing friendly games anyway.

Tonberry
12-09-2009, 14:37
And you, saying the game isn't worth playing if you don't get to use whatever you want without protest, are not taking it too seriously :p? Intended or not (presumably not?), that is what your previous post sounded like to me.

Nope, I'm agreeing with this:


The fun is what counts, but that onus is on both players.

In that I'm saying that the game isn't worth playing if you and your opponent don't get to have fun, and if the fact that someone wants to use FW models with a codex comes in the way of having fun, then people are taking it too seriously.

EDIT: To put my views into context, I never get to actually play Warhammer myself, I just enjoy these kind of debates.

Corrode
12-09-2009, 15:14
In that I'm saying that the game isn't worth playing if you and your opponent don't get to have fun, and if the fact that someone wants to use FW models with a codex comes in the way of having fun, then people are taking it too seriously.

EDIT: To put my views into context, I never get to actually play Warhammer myself, I just enjoy these kind of debates.

Look, let's put it this way.

Player A: I want to use FW Model X.
Player B: Forge World don't even remotely balance their rules and this model is well known for being undercosted and extremely powerful. My game would not be fun as it would consist of you rolling dice and me removing models, with no chance of competing. I'd prefer you just use a normal list.
Player A: YOU'RE RUINING MY FUN YOU TAKE THIS TOO SERIOUSLY.

Or

Player A: Btw this is my custom Chapter which is half-Chaos but the Emperor doesn't know so I get to use Daemon Princes and Obliterators.
Player B: Oh hey, this is the first time we've played together and I wasn't actually expecting this. I'd prefer to just play a normal game if you don't mind, my list isn't really up to fighting this and I'm pretty sure you've just picked two powerful options from another Codex to boost yours.
Player A: BUT I WANT TO PLAY LIKE THIS AND IF I DON'T GET TO I WON'T HAVE FUN YOU'RE A FUN SPONGE.

At the moment, you're Player A. Is Player A a nice person? No. Note that both my examples consist of Player A taking powerful units for 'fun', equally he could take supremely underpowered units of the kind Forge World is renowned for making, but the same applies.

Player A: Oh hi, I was wondering if you'd let me use these things from IA. They're not particularly good, but I find them fun to use.
Player B: Oh, that's kinda cool I guess. I'm not really familiar with the IA books though, would you mind if we just played a normal game this time? I can have a look through the book with you afterwards and maybe we could play another game at a different time.
Player A: OMG FUN SPONGE YOU RUIN THE HOBBY FOR ME.

Tonberry
12-09-2009, 15:41
It's very easy to make 'person A / myself' look like an idiot, as shown by your example. I'm just basing my (entirely subjective) oppinion on the OP's question about taking Plague Ogryns etc. in a Chaos Marines army.

I do not in any way claim that my oppinions are fact, I just wanted to make the point that if someone was unhappy with me taking plague ogryns (etc.) in a chaos space marine army (with the intention of having a better and more interesting game, as opposed to 'I MUST WIN MOAR!'), I would be a sad bunny.

Corrode
12-09-2009, 15:49
You would be, but quite frankly, that doesn't matter. Your idea of 'a better and more interesting game' is someone else's idea of 'a game where I don't know half the rules, since they've been sprung on me at the last minute, and I'd feel guilty if i said no but at the same time I'd rather just play the game without extra frivolities'.

Once again - legal matters in tournaments (their own specific rules, mostly) and against strangers (the whole point of codices/rulebooks is really to allow strangers to play together without needing to hash out the details of the game for 2 hours first). If you want to try and spring extra rules on strangers and then claim they take it 'too seriously' when they say no, you're a ********.

Legal doesn't matter so much with friends - if you and your friends want to play that way, that's great. Go wild. Nobody's watching you and telling you you can't do it. Just make sure that you actually talk to them first, rather than simply bullying them until they let you do whatever.

tl;dr ITT we learn that social skills and politeness work better than shouting POWER GAMER/YOU'RE NOT FUN at each other.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 15:53
i get it, the plague ogryns can be considered broken, in a renegade list they fill a "heavy hitter role" that the list lacks somewhat, theres already several things in the CSM list that fill that role, including plague ogryns could be considered powergaming

the plague ogryns have been dropped

like i say i will be limiting myself to necrosius (who for another 40 points i could take the vastly superior typhus) and blight drones, which are basically a ballistic skill 2 land speeder squadron, so easy to kill (yeah they also have the mawcannon from the soulgrinder) but still not game breakingly broken

the vraks list is open to all kinds of list abuse: take a cheap command squad, some plague orgrnys and a couple of rhino mounted elite plague marine units, couple of guard squads as troops and load up the remainder on tank squadrons, im not planning on going anywhere near this type of list, instead taking a themed type, i like to win as much as the next person but i much prefer to play a themed list (hence i have never used a lash prince and have only ever used a 2 man obliterator unit once for example)

once anybody has seen the rules for necrosius or the blight drones i really cant see them being a problem for anybody

Tonberry
12-09-2009, 15:58
@Corrode:

I never said that I'd 'spring the rules on someone'. If attempting to persuade my opponent to let me use FW models, I'd of course let them read the respective unit entries in order for them to make an informed decision.

I agree 100% that 'If you want to try and spring extra rules on strangers and then claim they take it 'too seriously' when they say no, you're a ********.'

EDIT: Sorry Mannimarco for going slightly OT with your thread :)

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 16:05
no worries, thats the whole point of these forgeworld threads: to encourage discussion, would just make it so much simpler if GW would come out and say "yeah forgeworld is cool go for it" instead of "yeah its cool among friends but you gotta ask permission first"

as a general rule of thumb i always carry a photocopy of the page with the models rules on it, saves you from having to remember them and stops people accusing you of trying to make up rules

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 16:12
true enough, it might just be a "must ask opponents permission to use forgeworld" kinnda thing maybe?
Only if they're super-heavies under 2k points.
Which means that you're free to use it in tournaments *unless* the tournament rules specificaly mention that its not allowed.
Dunno if they mentioned that in the new books, but they do so in IA: 2 and IA: 4.

thats a downer, was looking through the army list at the back of the book and yeah ogryns are in it as an elite but neither necrosius or the blight drones are listed in it, necrosius doesnt even have a place in any force orginisation slot
Check the unit entry itself, maybe it mentions there.

Would be a cool thing if GW put out a set of guidlines so you could sort of build your own codex. Not unlike the vehicle guides they had put out a few years back. Where you could build your own vehicle.
Kinda like what Avian did with WFB?

as a general rule of thumb i always carry a photocopy of the page with the models rules on it, saves you from having to remember them and stops people accusing you of trying to make up rules
Or just take the entire book along.

Corrode
12-09-2009, 16:23
@Corrode:

I never said that I'd 'spring the rules on someone'. If attempting to persuade my opponent to let me use FW models, I'd of course let them read the respective unit entries in order for them to make an informed decision.

I agree 100% that 'If you want to try and spring extra rules on strangers and then claim they take it 'too seriously' when they say no, you're a ********.'

EDIT: Sorry Mannimarco for going slightly OT with your thread :)

I think we're pretty much in agreement to be honest. Everyone has fun and nobody's accused of having bad fun. Happy times all around.


no worries, thats the whole point of these forgeworld threads: to encourage discussion, would just make it so much simpler if GW would come out and say "yeah forgeworld is cool go for it" instead of "yeah its cool among friends but you gotta ask permission first"

There's a reason they don't do that. If they did, players would expect Forge World to actually balance and playtest their rules, rather than just slapping down stuff that was cool. GW doesn't see anything wrong with opponent's permission for models made by Forge World because it expects people to play in a manner that would allow Forge World anyway, but they recognise that some people don't want to and that's fine too. No accusations of 'bad fun' etc.

yabbadabba
12-09-2009, 16:51
This thread makes some eyebrow raising.

Good luck Mannimarco, I'd play you if I had time to look at all the army lists you proposed to play with just to be appraised of the rules. Anything for a laugh and the roll of the dice ;)

DuskRaider
12-09-2009, 17:04
i get it, the plague ogryns can be considered broken, in a renegade list they fill a "heavy hitter role" that the list lacks somewhat, theres already several things in the CSM list that fill that role, including plague ogryns could be considered powergaming

the plague ogryns have been dropped

like i say i will be limiting myself to necrosius (who for another 40 points i could take the vastly superior typhus) and blight drones, which are basically a ballistic skill 2 land speeder squadron, so easy to kill (yeah they also have the mawcannon from the soulgrinder) but still not game breakingly broken

the vraks list is open to all kinds of list abuse: take a cheap command squad, some plague orgrnys and a couple of rhino mounted elite plague marine units, couple of guard squads as troops and load up the remainder on tank squadrons, im not planning on going anywhere near this type of list, instead taking a themed type, i like to win as much as the next person but i much prefer to play a themed list (hence i have never used a lash prince and have only ever used a 2 man obliterator unit once for example)

once anybody has seen the rules for necrosius or the blight drones i really cant see them being a problem for anybody

Necrosius is alright, I've used him before. Not the best character in the world, but he's a thematic one which is why I like him. Plague Ogryn ARE fun on the board, and a lot more reliable then Berserker Ogryn, so it's kind of a no-brainer.

BTW... You can't take Tank Squadrons with Renegades. You get a single Tank and a single Close Range Artillery. What it comes down to is this: Renegade Militia don't really rely on armor. It's more down to infantry and whatnot (especially Plague Ogryn and Plague Marines).

Look at it this way... A Renegade Militia force on the table isn't going to be nearly as powerful as an IG force. We don't have all the tanks, we don't have Valkyries, we don't have the orders or characters, we don't have a lot. What we DO have are a bolstering support from Chaos Marines and some powerful yet disposable Elite selections.

Sure, we can take Hell Blades and Hell Talons, but it's not something I'd feel comfortable using against someone in a normal game anyhow.

The only other thing we'd use is Dread Claws with Chaos Space Marines, which I will sometimes use with my force (I only have one).

Tymell
12-09-2009, 17:10
Is it legal? No.

Is there anything really wrong with it, provided you inform your opponent beforehand? No :)

I would happily play against such things, as I feel variety and imagination are the core of what make the game fun. But technically, no, FW stuff isn't "legal" (i.e. valid in most tournies) because it doesn't go through the same rigorous playtesting/balancing that in-codex things do, and they're often unknowns for opponents. It might vary from tournie to tournie though, some might agree to it, but best to check beforehand.

HsojVvad
13-09-2009, 03:57
I was just reading a blog from Phil Kelly I believe it was ( someone just posted this on the general forum) and he encourages it. Be damned with the rules, he says, and have fun. I agree with this.

BUT you have to be mindfull of other peoples answers if they decline. Maybe they had bad experinaces with letting people do that, and find it just not fun, and don't want to do it no more.

If you really want to do this, why not say, that "if you let me play this army with these rules, you get a 4++ save for all your units" (or something to his benifit, saying any modles killed, can come back as if it was without number for the first kill or two, or what ever you think is apropriate.) this way you have your powerfull list, and he has a powerfull advantage as well. As you said, it's for fun, so if you are rolling more dice than you would have normally, or more stronger rolls where you do more damage at least with his free 4++ will give him a chance of not removing as many models he would have then.

This way you have fun using your list, and he has fun, by not removing as many models.

If you say no to your opponent of having a 4++ when you spring this out of the blue, then you are just a power gamer, and I would politely say, or maybe not depending on your attidute, I would say no thank you.

Joewrightgm
13-09-2009, 04:02
I'd play you, straight up. I'm also in a more "rules are guidelines" mode now after reading Gav Thorpe's really nice post about the Chaos Space Marines codex.

You want to do something? Just ask. Explain what you're doing, and if you're opponent is willing, who cares that it isn't 'tournament legal'? That is the beauty of this hobby; you make it your own.

Tymell
13-09-2009, 09:55
I was just reading a blog from Phil Kelly I believe it was ( someone just posted this on the general forum) and he encourages it. Be damned with the rules, he says, and have fun. I agree with this.

A very solid point. The thing people need to remember sometimes is that the rules are not there to enforce some kind of sport and find who's best. They are there to make it fun, because a game has to have some rules. It's no fun playing a game where your opponent can bring armies much bigger and more powerful than yours, and just stomps you every time. So the rules are important, but ultimately if they're lessening the overall fun of it, then they're being used wrong.

scarletsquig
13-09-2009, 11:57
Sure, go ahead with it, the rules are just guidelines. :)

Baragash
13-09-2009, 12:13
@the OP:
In the Vraks fluff the Daemon Engines were brought by the CSM that came to Vraks, which is (presumably) why they don't appear in the Militia lists/aren't an option for them.

Necrosius has a rule that affects Plague Zombies, so it seems (IMO) a reasonable assumption that he is meant to be a SC for the Nurgle Militia.

On a different note, I'll play against anything if my opponent takes 5 or 10 minutes to brief me on any malarkey they want to engage in :)

mughi3
14-09-2009, 10:10
A very solid point. The thing people need to remember sometimes is that the rules are not there to enforce some kind of sport and find who's best. They are there to make it fun, because a game has to have some rules. It's no fun playing a game where your opponent can bring armies much bigger and more powerful than yours, and just stomps you every time. So the rules are important, but ultimately if they're lessening the overall fun of it, then they're being used wrong.

Unfortunately there are a great many WAAC players out there who see 40K and all other war gaming systems as just that.-a sport

We need to be honest, sports are styalized warfair and 40K is no different we just fight our mock battle with little army men and tanks and our minds plotting tactics.

Since i play 40k as form of social activity with friends my attitude towards 40k is one of theme and fun over WAAC. sure everybody likes to win, it's the nature of wargaming, a hard battle with a victory pulled out at the last is far more enjoyable than getting curb-stomped on turn 2 by a super tournament WAAC army.

I try to make my armies effective within the confines of thier theme. i run no special characters in my DIY marine army. would it make the army perform a bit better if i did? yep
would it fit my theme? nope.


I've been a FW afficianado for close to 10 years now and i see alot of ignorance on what FW is both in performance and legality.

GW put the entire legality thing to rest back when IA II was released.

"by your opponant agreeing to play you they are giving you permission to use the miniatures in your collection, no additonal permission is required"

FW units and items have been legal in normal games for years now according to GW and only restrictions for tournamnets and big stuff has been included in the rules.

The entie point of FW isn't to be a WAAC player but to add variety to the game and open up great modeling opportunities. there are only about 3 things i can think of out of the entire FW line that were truely overpowered and have since been changed via FAQ otherwise FW units are generally overcosted and average performers but add interesting flavor to a game.


People are generally resistant to change. even though your using a legit unit with a GW produced rulebook(always bring the FW rules with you) and mini some people cannot hadle the fact that it is outside the normal(plastic) line of GW products. even though they specifically made it for the game.

Nobody can force you or your opponant to play the game or which rules sets you will be using so if you want to field a FW unit and a player thinks it is "OMFG BROKEN!" simply because it is a FW unit, you can try to reasonably explain to them why it isn't or you can find somebody else who is willing to fight against it.

Spacker
14-09-2009, 11:48
GW put the entire legality thing to rest back when IA II was released.

"by your opponant agreeing to play you they are giving you permission to use the miniatures in your collection, no additonal permission is required"

FW units and items have been legal in normal games for years now according to GW and only restrictions for tournamnets and big stuff has been included in the rules.

I guess you missed the change in Imperial Armour Apocalypse then, where it clearly states


As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, and everything else is up to the players to use or ignore at will.

It then goes onto explain about the way rules and expansions are used, and that IA falls into the same category as things like Cities of Death.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone shouldn't allow FW rules, I'm a die-heard FW fan - people who know me in real life (and even some who only know me on the net!) rib me about how much I've spent on FW over the past 8 years or so. I rarely play a game with friends without some FW models included, and more often that not play using just FW alone (such as with the Death Korp). I just wanted to point out that the quote from Imperial Armour Volume 2 no longer apples (and it was a quote I myself often used to support the use of FW units, until IA:A came along)

mughi3
14-09-2009, 14:15
Well i do not own IA: A nor do i intend to get it.
i know FW is more focused on apoc games now and thats fine however the old statment and reasons explained for it in IA: II are still valid.

Expansions like cities of death and FW units are legal GW products not some shadowy thing we drag out of our basements(like VDR), and in reality you do not need to ask special permission to use the expansions.

There is no difference between "hey lets play a COD game"

or "hey i am going to use some FW units in my list"

Neither one requires any extra special permission beyond your opponant saying "sure i am up for that"


People who do have a problem seem to think there is some sort of secret cult of FW goodness or illegality involved that they cannot tolerate instead of enjoying the variety FW creates for the game.

Petay1985
14-09-2009, 14:19
Well... it would all be okay except for the Plague Ogryn, they're Renegade specific. However, it seems Necrosius is available to both Renegades (with his Plague Zombie rule) and CSM. Also, it states specifically that Blight Drones are a Fast Attack for both CSM and Daemons, so yes technically it is quite legal.

And about the whole "asking for permission" to use Forge World rules... I paid good money for these models / books, you better believe I'm using the stuff.

Spot on this is my understanding too!! plus 'mannimarco' i'd let you field the ogryns!! :)

Spacker
14-09-2009, 14:50
Well i do not own IA: A nor do i intend to get it.
i know FW is more focused on apoc games now and thats fine however the old statment and reasons explained for it in IA: II are still valid.

They use similar wording in IAv6 too - I only quoted IA:A because that's the first one it came up in. The IA:A book also isn't just for Apocalypse, it's for 40k games too - FW just didn't make it completely clear, not until IAv6 when they adjusted the rules again to say that the unit rules for normal 40k and Apoc are now the same as they are moving to a unified ruleset, and they also now include the Apoc SH, Flyer, and Garg Creature rules to replace those from the earlier books and state they are for normal 40k games too where the appropriate units are used.




Expansions like cities of death and FW units are legal GW products not some shadowy thing we drag out of our basements(like VDR), and in reality you do not need to ask special permission to use the expansions.

There is no difference between "hey lets play a COD game"

or "hey i am going to use some FW units in my list"

Neither one requires any extra special permission beyond your opponant saying "sure i am up for that"

Which is the point that FW were trying to make with the change - there's nothing stopping your opponent saying "no, I don't want to play like that". For that matter, there's nothing stopping your opponent saying "I don't want to play against Marines" and just walking away when you turn up with a Codex Space Marines list using nothing but Codex units. Legality is irrelevant, it's down to the players to agree what they're going to play. Me, I'm up for anything, so will happily say yes to pretty much anything suggested :)

mughi3
15-09-2009, 11:24
Unfortunately, at least with US gamers, they need "hard" clear and concise rules or somehow they think your not playing fair. it doesn't matter if it is legal GW product because it isn't in the realm of what is considered "normal"

That i think is the biggest problem with the GW design team mind set.
a bunch of brits getting together for a game and a pint are going to approach the game completely different(a set of rough guidelines) than gamers from other parts of the world where RAW trumps all.

I to will take on anything, the units being used are not nearly as important as the attitude of the player your playing against.


I play wargaming for recreation. this is my big social activity. if i have to spend half the game arguing every little rule GW doesn't make clear or have to play against people who try to tell me what parts of my army are "OK" to use it isn't very reacreational.

Corrode
15-09-2009, 11:31
I made this point earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again anyway - your fun isn't actually more important than someone else's fun. I'm all up for trying weird and wacky things of an evening, but they need to be pre-arranged. If you say 'hey fancy some 40k next week?' and I agree to that, I'm not going to appreciate it if you then say 'btw I'm using my own special codex mixing things together' or 'hey I decided to run half of the IA books, if you want you can spend half an hour reading everything over', or 'btw we're playing CoD - sorry if I didn't mention that but we have no other terrain so it's CoD or nothing'.

All of those are things I wouldn't MIND - I want to get a proper CoD game at some point, Forge World stuff is usually a bit of fun, and I've even given some guy with a homebrew 'fixed' Chaos codex a go (which had ridiculously good TSons which made the game semi-pointless). I'd like to know in advance, though, and be given the chance to say 'no'.