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View Full Version : Taking down the so called 'cheese army' with an averge army.



Tanith Ghost
14-01-2006, 18:56
In light of the 'worst armies' thread, I've mad this thread to discuss ways to show these lists are not so mighty as they first look.

Skaven army of death-
As a skaven player myself, I know full well the potential in this one to murder.
I also know the achilies heel of the ratmen. We're not very brave at all.
Terror is your friend against skaven. Panic tests are another staple of fighting the rats. Pick on the smaller units, as they can be made to panic more easily.
Use fast cavarly, flyers, and whatever else to get to their flanks and rear.
A flanked skaven unit is royaly screwed when they loose.

For shooty armies, and I can't stress this enough, by all means SHOOT BACK. Return their fire, and force them to come to you. A cannon is a wonderful thing to deter a ratling gun. Crossbows, handguns, Long bows. Pick one and
target the enemy guns.


More to come in time.

Stouty
14-01-2006, 19:37
We're not very brave at all.


Generals Ld plus ranks. Seems brave enough to me.

RGB
14-01-2006, 21:09
If you flank any unit, they're screwed. Unless they're uber-knights-of-doom from somewhere in the north.

And I can't get Scaven-levels of leadership with a human army at all.

So as the other poster said, brave enough for me.

Latro
14-01-2006, 21:33
If you flank any unit, they're screwed. Unless they're uber-knights-of-doom from somewhere in the north.

Using those frenzied lunatics myself, I can say from experience that getting flanked sucks ... rear-charges are fine though.

While I'm at it, I might as well add something useful to use against the (apparently) scary and overpowered Khorne Cavalry army:

It's simple and obvious: team-up, flee and flank 'em.


:cool:

Wickerman71
14-01-2006, 23:04
Even if Terror is the Achilles heel of the ratmen, do you know of any Terror causing monster that can hold up to one round of fire from the Engineers, Jezails & Warp Cannon it is sure to have. The only time you will see a balanced non competitive list beat a SAD army is if the SAD player rolls bad enough to defeat him self, wheres the fun in that?

Neknoh
14-01-2006, 23:31
Seeing the ratling guns going comissar on the fleeing units? That's highly entertaining.

And, as for the Terror, the only one I can think of is a Lord of Chaos with the Mark of Tzeentch holding the Golden Eye atop a Chaos Dragon, that's a 3+ ward.

But, with Ld 10 on most units... what's the use in Terror? The one thing that have to bee done is to, in some way, get Fast Cav in there that actually can get to their flanks without getting a Stand and Shoot responce from a Ratling Gun.

And, using a Standard army, you won't often see any of those Dragons arround, perhaps a Daemonprince or Exalted with a normal Wardsave (or if DL, a 4+ ward and -1 to hit), but still, that DP would be geared towards surviving the shots.

So... as said, there's nothing to do but sit back and wait for that first ratler to blow, then, attack in the breach of his defence

scatterlaser
14-01-2006, 23:46
The thing about Skaven being brave due to the general's Ld plus ranks is that it only works when they A) have ranks and B) are in range of the general. Skaven aren't particularly resistant to shooting. Their only real defense is numbers, and you generally don't see more than 25-30 in a unit. Start exposing Skaven infanatry to stone throwers/mortars/flame cannon/template spells/hit-all-models-in-the-unit magic/etc, and you don't just cause Panic tests; you start reducing the Ld they take them on as well. Decent 'normal' shooting weapons like hanguns or crossbows add up if you have a reasonable number of them.

The other point is that Skaven only have particularly good Ld when they're near the general. Not everything fits within 12" of one model (unless it's a freakishly small Skaven army). Away from the Ld6/7 head honcho, they have a respectable Ld8 - if they're undamaged and in ranks. Start firing the template weapons or nasty magic around on the flanks and a lot of stuff starts running away. Once they start running, they're going to be rallying on Ld8 at best (and that's if they're near the general) - more likely it'll be Ld5/6.

Skaven have good Ld to start with, but they're also the only army that can have it eroded by casualties, being broken or by being flanked. Orcs/humans/Chaos/etc 'only' get Ld9 on their general and Ld7-ish on their basic troops, but they keep that no matter what. Being flanked is bad for anything, but it's twice as nasty for Skaven. If an Elector Count's unit of Swordsmen is flanked by a handful of dodgy Dire Wolves and loses combat by one, they're still testing on Ld8. Skaven with a Warlord are testing on Ld6.

Just some thoughts on it...

Mouldsta
15-01-2006, 00:18
The other point being that unless you're playing 3k+ then a SAD won't have Ld10, as only a warlord provides that, and most (if not all) SAD armies are led by a grey seer

Slappy
15-01-2006, 06:46
If you flank any unit, they're screwed.

If you flank ANY unit, they are screwed. Skaven are not any more vulnerable or special in this regard than any other army.

feintstar
15-01-2006, 09:40
How do you beat the Magical Uber lists?

Such as the so-called "Rolling thunder" list?
(iirc that's the name for as many Tz Heroes as possible all with Mark of Tz mounted on Chariots with MoTz, plus the rest of the points sunk into chariots, all with MoTz)

Or the Necro Summoning Hoarde?

The only plausible way I can think of is with Drain Magic at max power, and good luck getting that one to stick with 7+ Dispell dice and scrolls on the other end of the table... or taking dwarves with 11+ dispell dice.

Festus
15-01-2006, 10:05
Hi

HE with Book and Drain MAgic comes to mind... :D

Greetings
Festus

Elannion
15-01-2006, 16:07
If you flank ANY unit, they are screwed. Skaven are not any more vulnerable or special in this regard than any other army.

This kind of thinking is really getting on my nerves, i have seen it in a number of threads and in some parts it is true. However if you flank a skaven unit your dealing with some of the worst Ld in the game, meaning that aslong as you can get a marginal win, you still have a pretty good chance of breaking them, so yes it is worse for them. Just because somethings bad, doesn't mean it can't get worse.

Slappy
15-01-2006, 19:28
Oh brother. Do the math on hitting a Skaven unit in the flank with either a charging block of Knights or a full CR unit of infantry Granted the 5 sucks, but if they are within 12" of General than they still test on a 8 to 9. So ONLY if you slam them in the flank or rear AND if they are out of 12" of the general.

That's gonna happen alot. Especially to an army that can take more units of skirmishers and big, cheap blocks of infantry than any other army in the game.

I guess GW thought they were "balancing" Skaven when they put that part of the rule in.

Shimmergloom
15-01-2006, 20:53
And how many flank charges are you gonna get on skaven, that should cover most of the table, anyway?

Neknoh
15-01-2006, 21:35
When facing SAD... lots.

SAD isn't based arround covering the board shoulder to shoulder, it leaves big nasty gaps as soon as one of those Ratling Guns is destroyed

Mouldsta
15-01-2006, 22:09
Granted the 5 sucks, but if they are within 12" of General than they still test on a 8 to 9. So ONLY if you slam them in the flank or rear AND if they are out of 12" of the general.



And this would be the Ld 8 to 9 of what exactly? It's not the Ld 7 of the warlord, and it's certainly not the ld6 of any of the other characters.

A flanked skaven unit that loses is at best testing on ld6 (since they'd have to lose by one to actually lose), and far more likely testing at ld 5

scatterlaser
15-01-2006, 23:17
Oh brother. Do the math on hitting a Skaven unit in the flank with either a charging block of Knights or a full CR unit of infantry Granted the 5 sucks, but if they are within 12" of General than they still test on a 8 to 9. So ONLY if you slam them in the flank or rear AND if they are out of 12" of the general.
Skaven generals don't add the rank bonus of the unit they're in to their Ld and then radiate that. They give their unmodified Ld to everything within 12", and other units then modify that with their own rank bonus. Units that have been flanked don't get any rank bonus, so they're going to be testing on Ld6 at best (if they're in range of a Warlord). Being flanked isn't good for anything, but it's much worse for Skaven.


How do you beat the Magical Uber lists?
Off the top of my head (so these probably aren't iron-clad solutions):


Such as the so-called "Rolling thunder" list?
(iirc that's the name for as many Tz Heroes as possible all with Mark of Tz mounted on Chariots with MoTz, plus the rest of the points sunk into chariots, all with MoTz)
If you have some mobile S7+ units and/or a decent amount of S7+ shooting, they shouldn't be that bad, provided you have solid magic defense. A lot of the Tzeentch spells aren't actually that dangerous - the only ones I'd really be looking to stop would be Indigo Fire on big T3 units, Green Fire on units with halberds/flails/great weapons/etc, and possibly Blue Fire if it's cast on something valuable. They can't get that many Tzeentch chariots, so once you start autokilling some they should get less dangerous. If you don't have any S7 stuff, decent amounts of M8+ cavalry would probably do the trick - even 5 Silverhelms with no command would win by one, on average. Difficult terrain would be a good place for units or war machines, since if you're in there all they can do is cast spells at you.


Or the Necro Summoning Hoarde?
The only plausible way I can think of is with Drain Magic at max power, and good luck getting that one to stick with 7+ Dispell dice and scrolls on the other end of the ta1ble... or taking dwarves with 11+ dispell dice.
This one is pretty unpleasant. If they sandwitch their Necromancers between two infantry units, getting to them would be almost impossible. The only thing that springs to mind is either to have a really good magic defense (some Destroy Scroll equivalents wouldn't hurt here), or to have troops so killy that being surrounded by Zombies won't affect them. Chaos would do pretty well (Bloodcrushers, Plagueriders, Khornate Chosen anything, etc), as would Slayers (unbeakable, choppy characters) or maybe all-tree Wood Elves (immune to psych, lots of S4+ attacks, very manoeuvrable). Being very fast would also help - you could marchblock the shambling hordes and then kill enough auxilliary stuff to get a minor victory.

Nkari
16-01-2006, 01:50
Anything with 2 or more attacks as basic troopers will slaughter a Necromancer army..

Slappy
16-01-2006, 02:46
Yea, I goofed up on the leadership. My main point was Skaven can always bring tons of blocks of troops and skirmishers to deny flanks, so it doesn't really matter. The last 5 or so games I have played against Skaven I was always outnumbered in rank and file troops and skirmishers. SAD is no exception. It's ridiculous.

Morph
16-01-2006, 08:36
And how many flank charges are you gonna get on skaven, that should cover most of the table, anyway?

The problem is less that they cover the board, but that any good SAD player should have some sort of machine (ratling gun probably) on each flank to blow away any flanking units. What fast cav will want to get in range of one of those things?

Brother Edwin
16-01-2006, 10:44
Even if Terror is the Achilles heel of the ratmen, do you know of any Terror causing monster that can hold up to one round of fire from the Engineers, Jezails & Warp Cannon it is sure to have. The only time you will see a balanced non competitive list beat a SAD army is if the SAD player rolls bad enough to defeat him self, wheres the fun in that?


How is it the achiles heel? They are Ld 9/10.

To beat them eather use magic to kill ratlings or be a calvery army or just play better.

Tanith Ghost
16-01-2006, 15:03
No skaven ever has 9/10. The rank bounus doesn't stack with the general's leadership. Your basic clanrat is ld5. 5, people. Get something scary to one of their flanks and they test on that pitiful 5 most of the time, and a 7 at the highest. Not exactly the bravest around.

That's just the terror check. Then add in however badly they loose
to the big nasty and you've got a bunch of rats up $#&t creek without a paddle.

Brother Edwin
16-01-2006, 18:29
No skaven ever has 9/10. The rank bounus doesn't stack with the general's leadership. Your basic clanrat is ld5. 5, people. Get something scary to one of their flanks and they test on that pitiful 5 most of the time, and a 7 at the highest. Not exactly the bravest around.

That's just the terror check. Then add in however badly they loose
to the big nasty and you've got a bunch of rats up $#&t creek without a paddle.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Read the book.

Ld DOES combine generalship+ranks.

Cheers.

Next time play better.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-01-2006, 19:01
Well, I've parked a War Hydra right in front of 2 Ratling Guns, a Warp Lightning Cannon, and 2 Engineers, and it's taken every last bit of firepower to knack it. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps he was unlucky.

But anyways.

Any cheesey army can be beaten, but the problem is the uphill struggle you face, and the total lack of enjoyment you'll get from that game. Hence why I'll play a Cheesey player to prove my point, then never play them again.

Festus
16-01-2006, 20:24
Hi

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Read the book.

Ld DOES combine generalship+ranks.

Cheers.
Wow, you surely know how to make a fool out of yourself, man:rolleyes:.
Even if he was wrong, there are other ways to tell him...

...but unfortunately I have to agree: Take the Skaven's Ld (and the Skaven can use the General's Ld within 12", just like every other army), and add its current rank bonus to the number, giving you a Ld somewhere between 5 and 10 - depending on the situation.


Next time play better.
And what does that happen to be? You know what a signature is for, do you?

Festus

Lord Anathir
17-01-2006, 00:02
Quote:
Next time play better.

Brother Edwin, what kind of ******** comment was that?!? as far as i know, you yourself should play better, considering a 10 year old can win with that kind of lists you put together. screwheads like you are the ones that plauge the gaming community pretending to be all high and mighty because they won a game with a SAD or RAF. The real generals are the ones who win through tactics (and tactics doesnt mean trying to fit as many powerdice as you can into 2000pts!) NOT through rolling more dice then the other person.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 02:18
YEa scatter laser you are wrong on that one You add the generals rank plus his leadership and it radiates to everything within 12 inches. WOuld be pointless otherwise to only have rat ogres running on leader ship 6 all the time.

and guys seriously You need to stop punching skaven so hard... yea the sad army sucks But picking on there leadership sounds like you guys are getting desperate just to pick on them cause you think they are over powered or simply do not like them.... that would be so pointless to not add ranks to the leadership cause it shows how the skaven feel when there numbers are big and everything is going good.. but when things are bad and numbers are down bam ld 5.... and if you want the entire army to just have leadership 5 or 6 then whine somewhere else that would make them utterly pointless to play.


I do not endorse sad armies but they are easily beatable just gotta be smart about what you do and what terrain you use also on the ratling guns I strongly endorse if you play with one or two use three dice to roll instead of stoping at 2.you would not be skaven otherwise... and seriously i have no affiliation with brother edwin i think he gives skaven a badname to begin with with his sad army ideas every post.


Sorry for the somewhat rant but i am tired of everyone complaining about skaven.... LEarn to deal with it, the army is not going to be touched for a long ass time at least late 08' 09' your looking at and it is just pointless to complain. not to mention there army isnt even unbalanced. Maybe you hate them because they have the broadest selection of troops aside from chaos or whatever the reason is.. shrug sorry again but just sick of hearing about my ratkin getting picked on.

Slappy
17-01-2006, 02:26
cause it shows how the skaven feel when there numbers are big and everything is going good.. but when things are bad and numbers are down bam ld 5

What the heck do you think happens to any other unit in the game? Any block of infantry are gonna feel really confident when they got 30 other guys around them and are gonna feel like bolting for it when most of them are dead. The only difference is, Skaven got this "realistic" rule added to their list and no other army did. It isn't logical for them to get it and all the other armies to not get it.

It's also stupid they got the "life is cheap" rule when other armies would just do the same.

The whole Skaven list needs to be redone from scratch.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 02:35
SOrry wrong again sounds like your just sour.... First Off if every other army got that rule then give every army leadership 5.... Khorne leaderships 5 surething.... Or you want every army to have leadership 10 and then add the plus 3 rank so they have 13? OH PErfect sense!



anyhow dude and serioulsy Can you see BRetonians Catapulting Stones onto there own troops or cannons SHooting there own empire country men? OR yea Totally See High elfs wasting eachother perfect sense man you are a frikken genious.


oh and also SO take this into account..... You have 3 chaos warriors... I think there leadership is what 8? they get charged they at least have leadership 8 no matter what... now three skaven get charged there fukked three ways to sunday so how you wanna explain that fairness?

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 02:40
YEa scatter laser you are wrong on that one You add the generals rank plus his leadership and it radiates to everything within 12 inches. WOuld be pointless otherwise to only have rat ogres running on leader ship 6 all the time.

You're wrong. The book specifically says not to do that.


and guys seriously You need to stop punching skaven so hard... yea the sad army sucks But picking on there leadership sounds like you guys are getting desperate just to pick on them cause you think they are over powered or simply do not like them.... that would be so pointless to not add ranks to the leadership cause it shows how the skaven feel when there numbers are big and everything is going good.. but when things are bad and numbers are down bam ld 5.... and if you want the entire army to just have leadership 5 or 6 then whine somewhere else that would make them utterly pointless to play.

Skaven can exist without SAD. SAD is...sad.

I play a Skaven horde (270ish models in 2150) with stuff like Giant Rats and Rat Ogres and I win a good majority of my games. I can crush SAD, but unfortunately not everyone has the option to field as many troops as I can to make the Ratling Guns pointless.


What the heck do you think happens to any other unit in the game? Any block of infantry are gonna feel really confident when they got 30 other guys around them and are gonna feel like bolting for it when most of them are dead. The only difference is, Skaven got this "realistic" rule added to their list and no other army did. It isn't logical for them to get it and all the other armies to not get it.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The Skaven lifestyle is different -- they feel safer when in thier natural environment like being cramped together. In game terms this is represented well. Skaven have a slight bonus (+1ld) over other equivalent troops when fully ranked but can have a penalty of up to -2ld when they're not.

Also, other infantry are stronger when there's more of them -- 30 troops take fewer panic tests from casualties from magic and shooting and are also less likely to flee from panic caused by other fleeing units.


It's also stupid they got the "life is cheap" rule when other armies would just do the same.

No they wouldn't -- that's the point. Perhaps Orcs would fire into Goblins, but Orcs already have their own set of rules when it comes to animosity.


The whole Skaven list needs to be redone from scratch.

You go from not even knowing how their leadership rules work to this statement very quickly.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 02:47
I hope you know you were quoting two different people and got the notion I dont endorse sad armies of any type and Play a horde rat ogre Pestilense Army.



and I apologize to Scatter laser or whatever your name is apparently i read that rule wrong on leadership.... So now Noone can COmplain about Skaven Leader ship cause they cant even use the generals leadership with rank bonus.

Slappy
17-01-2006, 02:57
No they wouldn't -- that's the point.

Yes, they would.

I can justify, fluffwise, any army shooting into itself. Wouldn't be a stretch to do it either.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 03:00
Indulge me then slappy please by all means.

Slappy
17-01-2006, 03:05
Ok sure.

Greatswords are beating up a Giant and there is only 3 of them left. Behind them about 50 feet back is a Hellblaster and a Cannon. The crew are staring a this Giant about to kill the last 3 Greatswords and then come straight at them and kill their sorry asses. They don't WAIT for it to kill the last 3 Greatswords. They fire on it's ass the second they get a chance, regardless if there are other Empire troops in the way fighting it.

Mad Makz
17-01-2006, 03:05
Skitter Squeek, you are incorrect.

You use the general's 7 leadership, THEN you add the rank bonus of the unit within that radius.

So the highest leadership a unit of Rat Ogres can get is 7 (warlord)+0(ranks)=7.

The highest leadership a unit of Clanrats can get is 7(warlord)+3(ranks)=10

You might have meant that, but it was unclear from your post.

At any rate, Skaven's leadership when in large numbers is very high, potentially dispreportionate. However they ARE very susceptible to being flanked and tarpitted (When flank charged and already in combat they lose their rank bonus BEFORE taking the panic test, so will at best be testing on 7.)

I do not think this excuse the fact that they automatically get some of the most destructive magic in the game in the form of warplightning, or the fact that they automatically hit with ratling guns with so little risk.

Increasing the risk of Ratling guns blowing up (double 4,5,6 they blow up, double 1,2,3 they fire in a random direction) would do wonders to making them less viable and more 'skaveny'.

Warplightning should be toned down. I think if it was changed to Strength 4, armour piercing, then a lot of the problems with the skaven army would be gone.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 03:09
NO I actually thought the !0 was a radius i was wrong But that just makes it more an Argument to the skavens side that they do not need tuning down....

And like in the gt for example the highest you are getting is a cheiftans leadership 6.... only cause its a 1500 point match... I need to think what the hell i am going to do with my 9 rat ogres =(


Oh and Slappy Dude ...... That is the lamest excuse ever. give me one where there are 30 dudes fighting something.
or in all warhammers terms One model = 10 real life guys so 30 model strong unit is actually reprsenting 300 dudes.

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 03:14
Ok sure.

Greatswords are beating up a Giant and there is only 3 of them left. Behind them about 50 feet back is a Hellblaster and a Cannon. The crew are staring a this Giant about to kill the last 3 Greatswords and then come straight at them and kill their sorry asses. They don't WAIT for it to kill the last 3 Greatswords. They fire on it's ass the second they get a chance, regardless if there are other Empire troops in the way fighting it.

I thought you were actually going to try.

They wouldn't fire on their own troops, especially not greatswords. Talk of treachery in the army could destabilize it much more than the potential loss of artillery crews!

Besides, they can always flee from the Giant anyway. He's unlikely to damage their artillery and will probably get bored and wander off.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 03:20
Mad Kats Isnt Armour piercing a +1 so if it were strength 4 and another plus 1 then it would be the same modifier as if strength 5.

tell me if i am wrong do not have the book in front of me right now and havent used jezzails in a long time. I know they are armour piercing.

Slappy
17-01-2006, 03:28
I thought you were actually going to try.

They wouldn't fire on their own troops, especially not greatswords. Talk of treachery in the army could destabilize it much more than the potential loss of artillery crews!

Besides, they can always flee from the Giant anyway. He's unlikely to damage their artillery and will probably get bored and wander off.


Well I won that argument easily enough. Your post is a borderline joke.

Yea, the entire army would rather die as to not to kill those handful of Empire soldiers a minute before they are dead anyways.
Yea, they can flee from the Giant, when he moves faster.
Yea, a Giant can't break their artillery machines or anything.

Skitter-Squeek
17-01-2006, 03:33
LoL took ya all 30 minutes to come up with that comeback... You lose.


In the mighty Words of My good from aziz.....


Thank You, Come again!


Slappy Just give up Please you're just gunna dig yourself Deeper and deeper with every remark you make=(

Tanith Ghost
17-01-2006, 04:19
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Read the book.

Ld DOES combine generalship+ranks.

Cheers.

Next time play better.


We're discussing how to put the hurt on a SAD, not complainig about it.
There's no 'play better'.:rolleyes:

Second, YOU read the book. The general's LD value goes to nearby unts, THEN add that unit's ranks.:rolleyes: But you can tell a skaven player about their own book.

Mad Makz
17-01-2006, 10:55
Well I won that argument easily enough. Your post is a borderline joke.

Yea, the entire army would rather die as to not to kill those handful of Empire soldiers a minute before they are dead anyways.
Yea, they can flee from the Giant, when he moves faster.
Yea, a Giant can't break their artillery machines or anything.


Let's put some of your friends in the way of a tank, which they may be able to escape from or destroy because they are appropriately armed (unlikely, but possible), give you a rocket launcher and some military training (the sort that says 'never leave a man behind, your fellow soldiers are your BROTHERS in arms), and see if you wait to see if your friends take out the tank or you fire the rocket launcher and kill your friends (possibly NOT taking out the tank in the process).

I don't think you would.

Even if you KNEW they were going to die, I doubt you'd pull the trigger on the chance that you would be the one who killed them, rather than the enemy.

And how do you judge if a unit is 'certain to die' you can't, almost all units these days have a chance of killing an opposing unit, however slim, so shooting into combat by most troops can't be accounted for.

The point being, that the rules can't assess if the situation is a worst case scenario or if the general has total disdain for their own troops or what. I could agree in desperation you might fire into your own troops in combat, but what can be judged a 'desperate' tactic. It's not a common tactic. Meanwhile, Skaven care less than any other race, their attitude towards their brethren is simply 'better him dead than me' at all times. They live in a society where the only consequence of stabbing someone in the back is that more people will try and stab you in the back, because you are suddenly more powerful. Firing into combat is a tried and true combat methodology, and one that they are often described in the background as using.

The other races would all have objections, even Chaos (anger the gods) and Orcs (why get in the way of a good fight with "arrers and thingz"?!).

Warhammer is meant to provide options for general's based on a theoretical representation of certain fantasy forces perceived combat tactics, it is not intended to allow the general to decide the troops disposition and mentality on a whim, that's what special scenario rules are for (so I could see a special scenario that allowed other races to fire into combat, but I couldn't see the rule being adopted as a whole.)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 11:36
Skitter-Squeek and Slappy. If you want to flame people, I'm sure the GW Boards could do with some more pointless mud slinging. However, if you want to discuss things in a rational adult manner, shut up and look at how everyone else conducts themselves.

Anyway, as I was saying.

Any army can obviously be beaten. There is, by definition, no such thing as an unbeatable army. However, certain armies, like the RAF and the SAD suck *all* the fun straight out of gaming. Now, my army can quite easily beat them, due to a high Monster count. In 2,000 points, I have a Dragon, Manticore and 2 War Hydras. Sure, this seems beardy, except I have one very large weakness. The Magic phase, where I have no offensive magic at all, and only 2 paltry dispel dice to go round. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is quite some weakness at 2,000. However, I know how to use my army to the best of it's abilities, and I have a very high win ratio. Yet, the hallmark of a non-beardy army, I have had no more than average massacres with it.

In my experience, the SAD army will either cause, or suffer, a massacre. Very, very rarely does any other result come up. This shows there is something wrong with it.

And frankly, compared to other Skaven Weapons, the Ratling Gun is far, far too reliable, especially given it's potential. Thankfully, that is *very* easily fixed. Instead of choosing to roll another dice or not, the player simply declares how many dice he is going for, and rolls them, then lives with the consequences. For more characterful for the machivellian Skaven as well. You can imagine the mad eyed gunner cackling away as he hoses down the enemy regiment, oblivious to the loader squeaking warnings!

Eldacar
17-01-2006, 12:07
LoL took ya all 30 minutes to come up with that comeback... You lose.
While I'm not going to enter into the argument, I only counted sixteen minutes between replies.


Now, my army can quite easily beat them, due to a high Monster count.
I'm not sure how you play your list, but if the Bretonnian player knows what he is doing, wouldn't he combine charges from his Pegasus Knights and characters into those large monsters of yours so that he can take them out before they can be an active threat to him? Of course, you might have other units in your list that can prevent this (I don't know your exact composition).

Beastman_Bob
17-01-2006, 12:11
After reading through this thread, I think we should rename it to 'Let's argue about SAD skaven armies'. Come on guys, let's grow up, any army out there can be made 'cheesy' and would probably hold the upper hand if the general's were of a similar standard. But pratically all 'beardy' lists have some inherent weaknesses, that with superior tactical play can be exploited. A more balanced list normally gives you more opportunities to exploit those weaknesses. For instance - a min/maxed Empire gun line vs a Doombull-led Nurgle all beast force (Doombull + MoN Minos, MoN Minos, 2 Shaman, 2 units Puppies, 4 Herds, 2 Chariots, Wargor BSB + small unit of Bestigor), basically my Beast list from a GT heat 2 years ago. Thankfully I had the luxury of a decent skirmish screen, but the point is that I worked out from the deployment that if certain things happened and I sacrificed the screen the rest of my army would make it to combat - once this happened the weak little empire chappies decided to run for the hills, result - a massacre for me...

Beastman_Bob
17-01-2006, 12:12
...My opponent had been to several GTs and this was my first, now some of you might say I was lucky, but I believe my army selection and tactics allowed me victory. The following day I met another, slightly more balanced empire force, employed similar tactics, had a bad beat with my general's unit against a unit of handgunners, failed the re-rollable break test on an 8 and lost marginally. In both games my opponents and I had about the same luck with the dice so tactical play was the deciding factor. In the 1st game I played better, in the 2nd game the army selection gave my opponent more chances to counter my attacks, plus he probably played better than I did.
In conclusion, a balanced force can be the undoing of a gorganzola smelling list, but it takes patience, knowledge (of both armies), better tactical play and a little bit of luck (but hey, we play with dice - that's true all the time).

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 13:21
While I'm not going to enter into the argument, I only counted sixteen minutes between replies.


I'm not sure how you play your list, but if the Bretonnian player knows what he is doing, wouldn't he combine charges from his Pegasus Knights and characters into those large monsters of yours so that he can take them out before they can be an active threat to him? Of course, you might have other units in your list that can prevent this (I don't know your exact composition).

Highborn on Dragon, with magic items.

Beastmaster on Manticore, pretty much nekkid

3 x 10 units of Crossbowelves

4 Cold One Chariots

2 War Hydras.

The greatest advantage this list has is the Fear and Terror. In theory, yes, he can combine charges, but this is almost always where fear screws them up. If you've carefully calculated, and a single unit, or worse, your character, refuses to charge, then you tend to panic as a player. My Dark Elf Highborn is generally tooled up to take on specific enemies. I know this seems a little cheesey, but DE Magic Items do tend to be quite specific you know! Oh, and my Large Target fliers can charge over your units, meaning I can strike where you (in theory) least expect it!

And if a charge does look a little ropy, I'll flee with whichever unit, should it be safe enough to do so. The amount of times my Highborn has fled, setting up a nice double, or even triple, Chariot charge, I cannot count. Against an RAF, my Crossbows would be concentrating on stripping wounds off of the Pegasus Knights, as would the often overlooked Chariot Mounted Crossbows. Tends to mean they stick about less in combat! The Hydras are essentially tarpits, as they can be very difficult for non-ranked units to shift.

But yeah, as you can see from my list, in 2,000 points I have no Magic Defence, and an alarmingly small army. It's potent, but only if used right. Unlike SAD and RAF armies, which a 5 year old could probably use to good effect!

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 13:36
And frankly, compared to other Skaven Weapons, the Ratling Gun is far, far too reliable, especially given it's potential. Thankfully, that is *very* easily fixed. Instead of choosing to roll another dice or not, the player simply declares how many dice he is going for, and rolls them, then lives with the consequences. For more characterful for the machivellian Skaven as well. You can imagine the mad eyed gunner cackling away as he hoses down the enemy regiment, oblivious to the loader squeaking warnings!

That sucks all the fun out of the Ratling Gun. The mechanics of the Ratling Gun are very entertaining because of the "do I need one more die...d'oh!" mentality of the weapon. Its misfire table is just messed up and two dice should be a minimum able to be rolled. That puts its misfires mathematically equal to the Warpfire Thrower and Warp-Lightning Cannon.

It should also have its misfire table reversed to be high risk, high reward -- currently when a 6 comes up someone stops because they already have a good deal of hits and rolling extra dice produces very little extra damage. Were a 1 to be rolled, however, someone wouldn't throw another die right away as they do now because the only thing that happens is one shot is lost! However, with a 6 being rolled they'd be more enticed to roll more dice because they won't lose their shots and have the gun blow up, they'd simply lose their shots that turn. Its point cost should also be increased to 75 points.


If you want to flame people, I'm sure the GW Boards could do with some more pointless mud slinging.

Actually, they're pretty clean due to a good deal of nice members and some of the best moderation on the Internet.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 14:11
But it's the whole 'should I shouldn't I' mechanic which makes it so safe to use. You start off having rolled a 5 and 1. not really enough. So you risk it, and roll a 4. Thats 10 hits. Nice number, bound to do some damage, lets leave it at that.

But I do agree about switching the Misfire table. Seems only fair!

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 14:33
But it's the whole 'should I shouldn't I' mechanic which makes it so safe to use. You start off having rolled a 5 and 1. not really enough. So you risk it, and roll a 4. Thats 10 hits. Nice number, bound to do some damage, lets leave it at that.

Or you just say you're going to roll 3 dice and you end up with the same result.

Most people don't roll extra dice when a 5 or 6 shows up. Just make two the minimum and the misfire table should be worked with.

Tanith Ghost
17-01-2006, 15:38
I agree with Mad doc. the fun is playing roulete with the gun. The only problem there is not all skaven players are as crazy as they should be(trying to milk as many shots as possible from the gun at the very dire risk of misfire).
As a rule I always roll three, but usualy four.:evilgrin: A misfire is half the fun with these weapons. Get the sactter rersult and they can end up hoising the clanrats next to them with a volley and truthfuly claim it was an 'accident'.:evilgrin: :halo:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 16:22
Exactly. I hate the freedom a Gunner has to assess how he's doing, work out the odds of a Misfire, then choose.

I mean, look at the Helblaster. You fire it, you fire all three Barrells, like it or not. Which means you cannot stop when you think your doing enough damage.

Why should the Ratling gun be any different at all? Seriously. Why? Skaven are meant to be easily powercrazed! Far too safe for my tastes!

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 16:59
Why bother declaring? Generally you know how many dice you should roll and work from there. Declaring would be no different, it would just take some fun out of the weapon. Everyone would just say 'two' and roll two whenever they're not in a mad rush to get a ton of hits, because rolling more than two is often a waste since your chance of misfiring is 50% compared to 17% when rolling just two dice.

Tanith Ghost
17-01-2006, 17:22
Not to put a damper on the discussion, but we're digressing from the topic.;)

Next 'worst' army up for discussion-The Bretonian RAF.

How does one go about grounding them for good?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 17:35
Multiple, and I mean, MULTIPLE units with excellent Rank Bonus. They can hit as hard as they like, but with a basic res of 5 compared to their 1, they are really going to struggle to win. Forget Cavalry. Halberds would be a good option though, as when they charge, your not likely to get your save anyways.

Use missile troops early on to concentrate on forcing Panic tests and that. Artillery is a bit of a waste against them, considering the ease they can strike at them. Keep your army together, protecting each others flanks. With their large unit frontage when lined up for combat, you can force your opponent to attack piecemeal.

Slappy
17-01-2006, 17:42
Declaring would be no different, it would just take some fun out of the weapon.

So would you support a rule change that allows us to do this for the Hellblaster?

NakedFisherman
17-01-2006, 17:48
So would you support a rule change that allows us to do this for the Hellblaster?

That's a scarecrow if I've ever seen one.


Multiple, and I mean, MULTIPLE units with excellent Rank Bonus. They can hit as hard as they like, but with a basic res of 5 compared to their 1, they are really going to struggle to win. Forget Cavalry. Halberds would be a good option though, as when they charge, your not likely to get your save anyways.

You'll actually save quite a few wounds. Pegasi are S4 and have two attacks, and using a halberd is about the worst thing to do against them.


Use missile troops early on to concentrate on forcing Panic tests and that. Artillery is a bit of a waste against them, considering the ease they can strike at them. Keep your army together, protecting each others flanks. With their large unit frontage when lined up for combat, you can force your opponent to attack piecemeal.

Missile troops are good against the characters. They're pretty weak against Pegasus Knights.

Fliers are your best bet (or Mounted Daemonettes!) because they can hold up against Pegasus Knights quite well.

Ogre heroes are pretty good too, especially if used alone to force the challenge. Ogre heroes are good against Bretonnians all around -- a Tyrant is about the best way to stop a charging lance. :p
__________________

Latro
17-01-2006, 19:45
Allround advise when facing the RAF or other nasty flying lists:

Advance towards the opponent in two battle-lines, one up front and one following a little behind. The idea behind this is to make it impossible for the opponent to fly safely behind your units ... make sure they can not fly from outside your frontal battle-line's charge reach to the safety behind your second line in one go.

Personally I have found that chariots make excellent rearguards, ut basicly anything reasonably fast and flexible will do.


:cool:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 21:57
I'd far rather stay exactly where I am.

Chances are, your getting the first turn, so why give him the pleasure of closing the range? Set up quite far back (well, not 12" on!) then let rip with everything you have at range. Try to pick a unit which, if wiped out, will cause a Panic Ripple.

Other fliers tend to fare poorly in my experience against Pegasi Knights, mainly because my opponent insists they have 360 charge arc (which, being mounted models makes them utterly unique in Warhammer. Apart from Warhawks) which means you cannot outflank them.

Latro
17-01-2006, 22:40
Well, for that you need to have an army that can put up a strong shooting-phase ... strong enough to seriously cripple his army in about 2 turns of shooting. That might turn out to be quite difficult with all that saves he gets ... if he needs to make saves at all because he doesn't have to deploy in line of sight if the terrain is favourable.

If you don't, they'll be charging all the weak parts of your line, end up deep in your territory and they'll be dictating all the combats from then on.

Anyway, I'm not saying that shooting can't work ... but I was giving allround advise, meaning every army can benefit from it, not just the shooty ones.


... other helpful things (depending on the army):

- certain anti-flying items ... for obvious reasons
- movement magic/items ... suddenly out of charge-arc is not so "out" anymore


:cool:

Festus
17-01-2006, 22:41
Hi

Other fliers tend to fare poorly in my experience against Pegasi Knights, mainly because my opponent insists they have 360 charge arc (which, being mounted models makes them utterly unique in Warhammer. Apart from Warhawks) which means you cannot outflank them.
...and unfortunately, your opponent is right, they really do have a 360 LoS and thus an all-around-charge-arc.

Greetings
Festus

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 22:46
Sorry, but I refuse to accept that.

you stick a Character on a Horse, they count as Skirmishers for movement and that, but instantly lose the -1 to hit, and gain a 90 degree charge arc. They still have 360 vision, just a limited charge arc.

To say this doesn't apply to Pegasi Knights is patently stupid. I mean, my Harpies are -1 to hit because they are teeny tiny. A Pegasus is a pretty large target, spesh with a big shiny Knight on top!

I really wish GW would clarify this.

Mad Makz
17-01-2006, 23:03
Mad Doc, it's pretty clear from the flying cavalry rule. At any rate as Skirmirshers the opponent can just deploy the unit in such a way that they have a 360 degree arc (each model facing different directions) which just looks silly and causes people to try and perfectly align models when they move them to ensure they have complete line of site which slows the game down and is a pain.

That's the whole reason the 360 degree arc was introduced for Skirmishers in the first place, to prevent units looking stupid on the battlefield.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-01-2006, 23:29
Well, if they don't, it makes a LOT of difference should they flee, pursue or overrun.

Kahadras
17-01-2006, 23:43
I would have though that if they did not get all of the rules pertaining to flying cavalry then the Bret armies book would have made this clear. All it says is that the Pegasus knights are flying cavalry (refering you to the BRB) and then notes the fact that they get additional rules to what is stated. At no time does it say that they lose the skirmishing ability that flying cavalry recieve.

Kahadras

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-01-2006, 00:14
I just don't see it's fair at all to give them *all* the bonuses of both. I mean, granted, they can't strip ranks or cause panic from a flank/rear charge, but for such unrestricted troops, they take a lot of swatting, and hit bloody hard! Then again, they are 55 points each I suppose.

All I'm saying is that I want a definitive answer from GW. Absolutely no other mounted model gets the benefits of Skirmishers. I understand them moving in Skirmish formation, but even so.

Skitter-Squeek
18-01-2006, 01:05
Just take a storm banner for RAF /shrug another skaven general tell me if i am wrong but banner of the four black winds? If i remember correct it stops there flying for charging now is it at the unit with the flag or the entire army?
I need my books when I post on here dangit.


Also I never really Have went up against a RAF so No real Exp.


also Mad Doc that was barely a flame war :rolleyes:


I still think VC summoning Sickness is the worst army to face. SO many skelis and zombies being raised a turn sucks complete ass.

Slappy
18-01-2006, 01:33
Absolutely no other mounted model gets the benefits of Skirmishers.

Changebringers do.

Kahadras
18-01-2006, 02:19
I just don't see it's fair at all to give them *all* the bonuses of both.

I think that's why they are usualy 0-1. Then some twit will have come along and gone "We need to sell loads of them, not just one box per Bretonnian army"! Then some other bright spark will have bunged in the rule for multiple units for a small outlay in points (basicaly a Pegasus) and therefore the RAF was born.

Kahadras

NakedFisherman
18-01-2006, 02:59
I think that's why they are usualy 0-1. Then some twit will have come along and gone "We need to sell loads of them, not just one box per Bretonnian army"! Then some other bright spark will have bunged in the rule for multiple units for a small outlay in points (basicaly a Pegasus) and therefore the RAF was born.

Kahadras

The RAF was born because Pegasus Knights are too good for their point cost.

Trunks
18-01-2006, 04:11
I just don't see it's fair at all to give them *all* the bonuses of both. I mean, granted, they can't strip ranks or cause panic from a flank/rear charge, but for such unrestricted troops, they take a lot of swatting, and hit bloody hard! Then again, they are 55 points each I suppose.

All I'm saying is that I want a definitive answer from GW. Absolutely no other mounted model gets the benefits of Skirmishers. I understand them moving in Skirmish formation, but even so.

It is the only way you can have sensical rules though for this unit. A unit that is allowed to place all models facing different directions has to be able to have a 360 charge arc, anything else makes for some very complicated rules (at which point you might as well make them fliers that have to be ranked up instead of being skirmishers, like harpies in the 5th edition Dark Elf army).

The definitive answer from GW is right in the rulebook and any other unit entry for flying cavalry (there are three such units, Pegasi Knights, Warhawk Riders, and Changebringers). Flying regiment implies skirmisher. Skirmisher implies 360 charge arc and -1 to hit with shooting. It really doesn't get much simpler to see.

The fact that characters on flying mounts have a 90 charge arc has no bearing on the issue at all. You can take issue with that rule, but it is a seperate rule that is not related.