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Hlokk
12-09-2009, 09:08
Right, just thinking, most of the characters in the chaos codex were captain rank, aside from Fabulous Bill, who was head apothythingy.

Now, I was thinking, are there any survivors from the Heresy on the loyalist side still kicking about, or are they all dead. In particular, I'm thinking of Bjorn the fell handed (well not technically alive, but still...) and Garro (Not a clue what happened to him)

Are there any others that we know of in the background, or is it just the chaos ones who have lasted?

kylsnik ironhead
12-09-2009, 09:20
Wasn't Dante around during the heresy

Magos Saphentos
12-09-2009, 09:29
no dante is "only" 1000 years old and i dont know of any loyalist captains that have survived

Dies Ireas
12-09-2009, 09:29
If you count one entombed in a dreadnought one, then there is Bjorn the fellhanded.
But I don't know wat his rank was during the heresy.

Hlokk
12-09-2009, 09:32
But I don't know wat his rank was during the heresy.
He was wolfguard if I remember rightly, the youngest of Russ's mob who got left behind after he ran into the eye...

grissom2006
12-09-2009, 10:14
He was indeed a Wolf Guard when Russ went off on his crusade into the EoT shortly after and once things had calmed down he became Chapter Master.

Now a long shot may be Captian Nathaniel Garro from the Death Guard as what happened to him is shrouded> Some say he in the end turned traitor some say he died defended the palace then theirs the whole he formed the Inquisition and is still fighting the good fight. How effect a person he'd be after 10,000 years is anyones guess and going by the HH books most likely not that effective. As i very much doubt that a SM could be given rejuvenated like so many humans that we know of have been.

devolutionary
12-09-2009, 10:17
Fabulous Bill


*chokes on whiskey* Well done that man!

But no, Dante is the oldest (in terms of real time, not warp time) that's ever been listed in GW canon, and he's a mighty 1100 iirc.

Lord Hjamlar
12-09-2009, 14:55
*chokes on whiskey* Well done that man!

But no, Dante is the oldest (in terms of real time, not warp time) that's ever been listed in GW canon, and he's a mighty 1100 iirc.

Dante is the oldest "complete" marine ;)
Bjorn is the oldest alive marine, but he is entombed in a dread.
Guys from the 13th Co. may be the oldest ones, depends on their actual origin + how did the time pass in the warp ;)

RCgothic
12-09-2009, 15:05
I thought marines were functionally immortal, but centuries of constant warfare nevertheless don't exactly breed a long lifespan, sooner or later everyone gets unlucky.

Bjornin
12-09-2009, 15:05
Dante is the oldest "complete" marine ;)
Bjorn is the oldest alive marine, but he is entombed in a dread.
Guys from the 13th Co. may be the oldest ones, depends on their actual origin + how did the time pass in the warp ;)

This ^^ is important to remember when discussing the age of CSM vs. SM. It is quite easy to reach 10000 years of age when you only truly live for 100-500 years.

Condottiere
12-09-2009, 15:12
Do they pay out pensions? The bureaucrats can answer this.

Mannimarco
12-09-2009, 15:14
yeah time flows funny in the eye of terror, thats why we still have the original traitors running around

bjorn being the oldest loyal space marine only because hes stuck in a dreadnought, what we gotta remember is space marines do age, its just they dont seem to suffer the ill effects of old age (probably due to all the work thats done on them)

are people still unsure of the loyalty of the alpha legion? if we're saying theyre loyal then the oldest space marine is arkos......actually scratch that hes dead now

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 15:29
Lion El'Johnson. He's still alive, but asleep/training secretly. :p

But other than that, I can only think of Bjorn as being "alive".
Or at least on the loyalist's side.
The other loyalist primarchs are either dead, or missing and presumed dead.

And that's it for canon loyalist characters.

Argastes
12-09-2009, 16:31
I thought marines were functionally immortal, but centuries of constant warfare nevertheless don't exactly breed a long lifespan, sooner or later everyone gets unlucky.

I don't think so, Marines do eventually die of old age, it just takes much longer than for a normal human. Remember that the Blood Angels are noted for having exceptionally long lifespans. They wouldn't say that if Marines were functionally immortal and didn't have a finite lifespan.

RCgothic
12-09-2009, 16:33
I always figured that just meant they were better at not getting themselves killed, Black Rage notwithstanding.

Argastes
12-09-2009, 18:06
I always figured that just meant they were better at not getting themselves killed, Black Rage notwithstanding.

Nope, this is what the Angels of Death codex says:

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

Space Marines are long-lived, but they do age and will eventually die of old age if not killed in battle. They are not immortal.

Iracundus
12-09-2009, 18:58
One has to wonder whether the Wolves have ever asked Bjorn questions about the distant Great Crusade era about what their Primarch looked like, liked to do, whether some of those tales have been embellished from what really happened etc... or how did the Emperor look, sound, act?

marv335
12-09-2009, 19:04
there is one marine older that Dante.
the Ancient who is the chapter banner bearer. I forget his name, But he was the Sgi in charge of Dantes scout squad.

Son_of_Ithaka
12-09-2009, 19:38
You mean Furioso? I'm not a BA player so am most likely wrong...

Bubbatron
12-09-2009, 19:45
sorry to derail but i had a bit of a wtf moment when i read Fulgrim - Eldrad ???? just how old is the old codger !!! i mean to be alive then and appears to be a pretty influential farseer then must of tok him a few years, id love to be receiving his pension !!!

grissom2006
12-09-2009, 19:51
sorry to derail but i had a bit of a wtf moment when i read Fulgrim - Eldrad ???? just how old is the old codger !!! i mean to be alive then and appears to be a pretty influential farseer then must of tok him a few years, id love to be receiving his pension !!!

Eldrad was said to be a young seer when man was still primative.

marv335
12-09-2009, 19:55
You mean Furioso? I'm not a BA player so am most likely wrong...
No, Furioso is a class of dreadnaught, not a character.

Cleutin, that was is name.

Son_of_Ithaka
12-09-2009, 20:07
Ahh... righto. :p I think we'll have to wait and see what happens in the HH books to see who likely survivors could be.

The Anarchist
12-09-2009, 20:42
Now this might be a bit of weird one, also depending on how people feel about the book Legion. But some of the Alpha legion captains might be around, and remember they are still a large force (considered one of the largest chaos forces outside of the eye) so cant ahve recruited all new guys since the time of the Heresy. so possible that soem of the orginal captains might be around.

Onisuzume
12-09-2009, 22:14
One has to wonder whether the Wolves have ever asked Bjorn questions about the distant Great Crusade era about what their Primarch looked like, liked to do, whether some of those tales have been embellished from what really happened etc... or how did the Emperor look, sound, act?
Knowing oral traditions, I doubt that there would be too many embelishments, even with the space puppies' tendancy towards boasting.

grissom2006
12-09-2009, 23:15
One has to wonder whether the Wolves have ever asked Bjorn questions about the distant Great Crusade era about what their Primarch looked like, liked to do, whether some of those tales have been embellished from what really happened etc... or how did the Emperor look, sound, act?

Bjorn actually gets woken from statis from time to and is told of what has happened and gone on. He also tests the Blood Claws on their knowledge of the Chapters history and greatest triumphs. He also tests the Wolf Priests as well to ensure the traditions of the Chapter are maintained.

Lexington
13-09-2009, 00:17
There seems to be a persistent idea in this forum that a Marine, if not killed off by some outside force, will just live forever. Where does it come from? Marines clearly age, and at about 300 or so, start to show signs of extreme aging (from the old 2nd Ed. Ultramarines Codex). Anything that ages like that can die.

Gdolkin
13-09-2009, 00:23
The idea that Marines are immortal comes from Horus Rising, where Mersadie asks Loken about whether they can die of old age, and Loken says they don't really know, as no marine has ever lived long enough TO die of old age before dying from violence.. 'course, that was back in the Crusade, when no marine could have been much older than 200 anyway, right..? Some Warseers have jumped on this idea and spun a myth from it ;)
As Lexington says, they clearly age and die, there's a ton of fluff evidence.

wolf40k
13-09-2009, 00:34
The Space Wolves entire 13th company is 10,000 years old and they are still kicking around on the quest to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Gdolkin
13-09-2009, 00:43
Haven't heard about how time goes runny in the Warp/Eye of Terror then..? The 13th Company, the Traitor Legions, hell, even anyone who has travelled in the warp, are not necessarily as old as they should be..

Mannimarco
13-09-2009, 01:07
time is messed up in the warp, yes it does move slower but theoretically it can move faster, heck it can even send you back or forwards in time

im just waiting for a loyalist fleet who were trying to get back to terra for the end of the heresy just popping out of the warp, sombody is in for a shock

Argastes
13-09-2009, 01:16
The Space Wolves entire 13th company is 10,000 years old and they are still kicking around on the quest to destroy the Thousand Sons.

They've been in the Eye of Terror where time doesn't flow normally, thus they haven't been aging at the normal rate. They may have been at it for 10,000 years from the perspective of an observer in the outside universe, but for them, much less time has passed. It's the same reason that original Heresy-era traitor marines are still around in the 41st Millennium.


There seems to be a persistent idea in this forum that a Marine, if not killed off by some outside force, will just live forever. Where does it come from? Marines clearly age, and at about 300 or so, start to show signs of extreme aging (from the old 2nd Ed. Ultramarines Codex). Anything that ages like that can die.

Agreed. I'd also like to reiterate this line from the 2nd Edition AOD codex:

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

Obviously, then, all Marines have finite lifespans even if they don't die in battle.

wolf40k
13-09-2009, 01:23
They've been in the Eye of Terror where time doesn't flow normally, thus they haven't been aging at the normal rate. They may have been at it for 10,000 years from the perspective of an observer in the outside universe, but for them, much less time has passed. It's the same reason that original Heresy-era traitor marines are still around in the 41st Millennium.



Sorry I was wrong about the age:cries: but the question was "Are there any loyalist pre-heresy captains still about?"
And the answer that I was trying to give was Yes.

Gdolkin
13-09-2009, 01:32
Indeed, and look at Long Fangs. They're aged, elder marines.. what's next, living ancient mummy marines? For that we have Dreadnoughts..
Bjorn is famous for being the oldest Dreadnought, but does it say specifically anywhere that there are no other pre-heresy-born Dreadnoughts remaining? I'd have thought the Blood Angels or Iron Hands.. Bjorn was also close to his Primarch and the first Great Wolf, maybe a marine who was a battle-brother at the time of the Heresy, was a captain by M33 or whatever and got interred in a Dread in M34, wouldn't be as famous as Bjorn.. maybe an Ultramarine from the Crusade became Chief Dreadnought of the Novamarines or Sons of Guilliman or something /rambling.

Argastes
13-09-2009, 01:52
I'm sure that other original-legion chapters also have dreads whose occupants were alive at the time of the Heresy, but just aren't quite as old as Bjorn. But just on a side note, a Marine who fought in the heresy and then lived to be interred in a dreadnought in M34 would be a couple thousand years old at that point, which is far older than Marines can live to be. I'd say that any Heresy-era Marines who got put into dreadnoughts would have been interred no later than several hundred years after the Heresy (maybe as much as 1000 years for BAs who were very young at the time of the Heresy and very old at the time of interment). So very early M32 at the absolute latest, probably no later than mid-M31 for non-BAs.

T_55
13-09-2009, 02:03
Bjorn actually gets woken from statis from time to and is told of what has happened and gone on. He also tests the Blood Claws on their knowledge of the Chapters history and greatest triumphs. He also tests the Wolf Priests as well to ensure the traditions of the Chapter are maintained.

I have this imagery of hundreds of Blood Claws sitting an exam in deathly silence while a drednought patrols the rows of 'students'.

wolf40k
13-09-2009, 02:23
Bjorn is famous because he was the first Great Wolf Lord after Leamn Russ left to search for the Tree of Life. He Is in the dreadnought because he was wounded in the battle with the thousand sons Primarch, who he actually killed.

Iracundus
13-09-2009, 02:39
Knowing oral traditions, I doubt that there would be too many embelishments, even with the space puppies' tendancy towards boasting.

Actually knowing oral traditions, if anything I suspect tales would be heavily embellished or distorted in the telling through misremembering, changes in the way it's told, etc... One only needs to look at the amount of misremembered 40K background being mistaken for fact that circulates on these forums to see how oral tradition fails to preserve accurate details.

Argastes
13-09-2009, 03:35
Bjorn is famous because he was the first Great Wolf Lord after Leamn Russ left to search for the Tree of Life. He Is in the dreadnought because he was wounded in the battle with the thousand sons Primarch, who he actually killed.

Pretty sure this is untrue. I don't have my 2nd Ed. SW codex on hand to check why he's actually in the dread, but it wasn't Magnus who put him there, and he DEFINITELY didn't kill Magnus. Magnus is still around, in fact.


Actually knowing oral traditions, if anything I suspect tales would be heavily embellished or distorted in the telling through misremembering, changes in the way it's told, etc... One only needs to look at the amount of misremembered 40K background being mistaken for fact that circulates on these forums to see how oral tradition fails to preserve accurate details.

I'm not sure that this is fair to people who actually keep historical records via oral tradition. Warseer is not exactly an accurate simulation of a culture with strong oral traditions. We're just a bunch of nerds who chat about a frivolous hobby in our spare time, and frankly a lot of posters here aren't too concerned about whether what they say is true or not. In societies where there's a strong oral tradition, it's typically taken pretty seriously, and the people in charge of passing it along may put great effort into memorizing huge amount of info word-for-word and making sure their students do the same. Real-life societies that transmit cultural information orally are often capable of startling fidelity from generation to generation for this reason. I think that the SW's lore-keeping is probably closer to this model than to the Warseer model. So many of their sagas are probably fairly historically accurate even after being passed down many generations. That said, 10K years is a long time and certainly some of the old stuff has become mingled with myth despite efforts to preserve it.

EDIT: Counteracting the extreme lengthiness of a 10,000-year period is the fact that they have very old dreads like Bjorn to keep re-telling the stories with the authority of a first-hand observer. That does a lot to counteract embellishment and distortion, when you have a guy who periodically wakes up and tells everyone what really went down.

DuskRaider
13-09-2009, 03:53
As said before, with the exception of Bjorn the Fellhanded, I highly doubt anyone would be running about that's 10,000+ years old. Even IF Garro and Company did found the Inquisition / Grey Knights, I'm quite sure they'd be either dead, encased in a Dreadnought, or somehow kept alive through rejuvination or whatnot and kept at a purely commanding / authoritive role far from the fields of battle.

Jackmojo
13-09-2009, 07:23
So very early M32 at the absolute latest, probably no later than mid-M31 for non-BAs.

A pre heresy Blood Angels dreadnought would be a rather interesting character, as he would not have the Black Rage (not as sure about the red thirst) since his geneseed would predate the death of the primarch.

I've always found it interesting that the Blood angels are likely only about 10 or generations removed from the heresy, so they and their successors likely have a clearer picture of it then most chapters.

Jack

Onisuzume
13-09-2009, 10:45
Actually knowing oral traditions, if anything I suspect tales would be heavily embellished or distorted in the telling through misremembering, changes in the way it's told, etc... One only needs to look at the amount of misremembered 40K background being mistaken for fact that circulates on these forums to see how oral tradition fails to preserve accurate details.
And that shows you know narry a thing about oral traditions.
Take the sagas for example, fiction or not, the way the entire poem is built shows that its made to be remembered by telling. Using well-defined measures (alliterative verse in case of the sögur, which had a very hard systematic rigor) to make sure of that.

EDIT: Counteracting the extreme lengthiness of a 10,000-year period is the fact that they have very old dreads like Bjorn to keep re-telling the stories with the authority of a first-hand observer. That does a lot to counteract embellishment and distortion, when you have a guy who periodically wakes up and tells everyone what really went down.
Actually, I remember reading that he tests the lore-keepers to see if they remember correctly.

A pre heresy Blood Angels dreadnought would be a rather interesting character, as he would not have the Black Rage (not as sure about the red thirst) since his geneseed would predate the death of the primarch.
Afaik, all the Blood Angels that were alive when Sanguinius died would've gotten that curse, and thus it was inevitable that it would be passed down. With the possible exception of those marines that the Emperor brought with him in search of the primarchs.

Gdolkin
13-09-2009, 11:27
About whether a hypothetical pre-heresy Blood Angel Dreadnought would suffer the Flaw, that depends on how much you think it's a product of the 'psychic echo' which would have affected all existing Blood Angels, or on the other hand of them being forced to take blood from his dead body to continue recruiting, which wouldn't affect pre-heresy members.. unless the sharing and drinking of blood amongst them spread it around.
As Argastes and Onisuzume say, 'oral tradition' is lot more reliable than modern internet banter..
Also, cheers Argastes for picking up on my mixing up of 1000's as opposed to 100's of years in my speculation, well spotted sir, bloody confusing date system.. :)

aeoglas
13-09-2009, 11:56
Eldrad is, technically, still alive, last seen aboard abaddon's battle cruiser, fighting against the demons. eventually, he will emerge victorious, and, having absorbed the demonship's powers, he will recover his waystones, become immortal, tough as old boots, able to use 10 psycic powers per turn, and a superkilling machine of doom for +10 points.:p

of course, their is the discussion that eldrad plans to have Ghazskull Thraka recover his waystones and let his consciousnness pass into him, becoming Ghazdrad mag Ulthuan Thraka, Farboss of the Eldar.:evilgrin: He will then unite the eldar and orks, drive the Tau (thank god :D), necrons, C'tan, tyranids, and chaos gods from the galaxy, introduce roast squiq as a delicacy amongst the craftworlds, and reawaken the dead eldar gods after "terring gork an' mork too tinny tinny bitz of teef and abosorbin' dere killyies.":D

Maugan ra will now be armed with a "supa-killycannon" with an "an extra killy pointy blade" at the end.:p

The bloodskull scorpions, led by Karandras, will finally track down Ahra and "fro 'im to deth".:angel:

No seriously. He was about 4 hundred thousand years old, by my reckoning, when he enterred the despoilers Killa Krooza.
What about Mephiston? he's probably pretty old, though he's not a captain
And Lion El-Johnson... mabye some of his consciousness passed into the helm of the lion, waiting for Yriel to recover...

Hmm... now that you mention it, what about pre-fall wraithlords, like the wraith-king of inyanden? or would the eldar not have bothered about it before the fall.

The Anarchist
13-09-2009, 16:05
[QUOTE=aeoglas;3946866]Eldrad is, technically, still alive, last seen aboard abaddon's battle cruiser, fighting against the demons. eventually, he will emerge victorious, and, having absorbed the demonship's powers, he will recover his waystones, become immortal, tough as old boots, able to use 10 psycic powers per turn, and a superkilling machine of doom for +10 points.:p

QUOTE]

Don't be silly its not an Ultramarine character.

Remember there are other ways of being preserved, it is possible to be put in the sa me sort of amniotic fluid that titan principes can be placed in and live for in excess of thousands of years. so a marine could reach a certain age and then be put into amniotic fluid so he can pass on his knowledge, for example Garro if he created the Inquisition. i actualy kind like that theory, Garro is still alive in controll of the Inquisition and pulling all the strings form behind the scenes.

Fallen DA
15-09-2009, 18:17
Now, I was thinking, are there any survivors from the Heresy on the loyalist side still kicking about, or are they all dead. In particular, I'm thinking of Bjorn the fell handed (well not technically alive, but still...) and Garro (Not a clue what happened to him)

One feels that 10,000 years maybe pushing the boundries of "Oil of Olay" just a little bit :rolleyes:

Emperors Teeth
16-09-2009, 09:42
Actually, if you go by Black Library books the oldest living marine would be Captain Astellan from the book 'Angels of Darkness'. Although not technically lived for 10,000 yrs with the whole Caliban-time-vortex thing, he was born on Earth and took part in the re-unification wars if I remember right.

He wasn't executed in the book, rather he was imprisoned near to Luthor in the Rock so afaik he would still be alive. Kinda.

radical ed
16-09-2009, 10:37
ALtho he isnt loyal (altho he might be, depending on what you believe...) Luthor, 2nd in comand of the Dark Angels is still alive. Locked up in the Rock, and tortured every so often, to try to get him to repent.

Then there is the mystery and enigma that is Cypher. Again, may or may not be loyal, and may or may not be from the time of the Heresy.

Argastes
16-09-2009, 11:16
A pre heresy Blood Angels dreadnought would be a rather interesting character, as he would not have the Black Rage (not as sure about the red thirst) since his geneseed would predate the death of the primarch.

I don't think there could actually be such a thing as a pre-heresy BA dreadnought, because Bjorn is supposedly the oldest dreadnought, and even he wasn't interred in his dreadnought body until after the Heresy (we know this since he was still uninterred when Russ disappeared).

AndrewGPaul
16-09-2009, 11:34
The oldest surviving dreadnought - there were definitely dreadnoughts around during and before the Heresy, although apparently they've all since died.

Argastes
16-09-2009, 12:08
Right, of course I'm talking from a 'present day' perspective. Go back to earlier times and you would certainly find dreadnought occupants that were interred during or before the Heresy.

Luko
16-09-2009, 12:55
Has any one read the new salamander book?

Towards the end theres a marine whos been sitting in a throne for like 10,000yrs or well shortly after istavaan drop site massacre.

Don't want to reveal to much, but put it this way hes not in the best condition when the rest of the salys find him. He dies after they remove the geneseed

Luko

Argastes
16-09-2009, 15:26
What kept him alive? That's many times longer than a Marine's natural lifespan. Put the answer in spoiler blackout if you don't want to ruin anything.

Urath
16-09-2009, 15:31
Actually, if you go by Black Library books the oldest living marine would be Captain Astellan from the book 'Angels of Darkness'. Although not technically lived for 10,000 yrs with the whole Caliban-time-vortex thing, he was born on Earth and took part in the re-unification wars if I remember right.

He wasn't executed in the book, rather he was imprisoned near to Luthor in the Rock so afaik he would still be alive. Kinda.

In Salamander, a pre-Heresy marine has literally sat on a throne guarding some armour for ten thousand years. His armour has rusted to the point that it can no longer move, but he was still alive when they found him.

Ah, sorry Luko; I didn't see your post.

Well thats the thing Argastes, it doesn't actually say. But:
the world was encapsulated by a warp storm for some time.

pookie
16-09-2009, 15:46
What kept him alive? That's many times longer than a Marine's natural lifespan. Put the answer in spoiler blackout if you don't want to ruin anything.

Wheres your souce for there life spans?

We know they live until they are killed in battle as ive never known one to die of old age, but theres no mention of a 'average' life span in any source book i can think of.

Onisuzume
16-09-2009, 16:05
ALtho he isnt loyal (altho he might be, depending on what you believe...) Luthor, 2nd in comand of the Dark Angels is still alive. Locked up in the Rock, and tortured every so often, to try to get him to repent.
And in almost perpetual stasis as well.
So for whatever counts, he's about as alive as Guilleman (except that he really is dead, just put in stasis shortly after his death). The fact that Guilleman's corpse still isn't showing signs of decay demonstrates how powerful stasis is at preserving something alive/dead.

For all Luthor knows, its been only a few weeks after the fall of Caliban.

gwarsh41
16-09-2009, 18:38
yeah time flows funny in the eye of terror, thats why we still have the original traitors running around

bjorn being the oldest loyal space marine only because hes stuck in a dreadnought, what we gotta remember is space marines do age, its just they dont seem to suffer the ill effects of old age (probably due to all the work thats done on them)

are people still unsure of the loyalty of the alpha legion? if we're saying theyre loyal then the oldest space marine is arkos......actually scratch that hes dead now
Bjorn has also rests within a vault deep within the space wolves fortress where time almost doesn't exist at all. In the 2nd ed fluff it has a good chunk about bjorn. He still has cravings for food and ale, is still freaked out that he can see 360 degrees, and has aged alot. He now wonders if all the tales he has told were true, did he really fight alongside russ and whatnot. Bjorn has a depressing life.
Even in the game his initiative is 3 to represent him being too old.

I think he was a blood claw when the heresy occurred, and was promoted up to wolfguard by the time russ left. Shortly after became the great wolf for the shortest time of any great wolf. He was paralyzed in a great battle and entombed in the dreadnought.
seriously though, ten thousand years old!
I am almost certain that 2nd Ed codex refers to Bjorn as one of the oldest living beings, only younger than the emperor and the primarchs.

DeSnifter
16-09-2009, 20:06
I think the whole space marines = immortal thing from the horus heresy books is more due to the fact that the great crusade had 'only' been going on for about 200 years. As a result these brand new super humans didn't really have the opportunity to die of old age yet. If they hadn't lived long enough to die from old age, then technically they would all be considered immortal until one of them finally croaked on his gerber cream of carrots.

Mr_Rose
16-09-2009, 20:07
Afaik, all the Blood Angels that were alive when Sanguinius died would've gotten that curse, and thus it was inevitable that it would be passed down. With the possible exception of those marines that the Emperor brought with him in search of the primarchs.
"Curse?" You speak of the Black Rage as though it were some sort of mystical spell or something; it is not:
By the time Horus was defeated on Earth, the Blood Angels Legion had been utterly broken, reduced to a few squads of men, none uninjured. In order to save the Legion, it was decided that they would use the dead flesh of their Primarch, slain in battle with Horus, to create new progenoids, in the same way the originals had been created by the Emperor after the Primarchs were scattered across the galaxy. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee that these new progenoids would retain a genetic imprint of the memory of their Primarch's last days. Nor did they foresee that exposure to Horus' warp-tainted blade and corrupted starship would introduce a second, more insidious flaw.
None of that is the result of a specific, directed effort to "curse" the Blood Angels via some sort of spell, and it only affects those Blood Angels whose progenoids are descended from the ones cloned from Sanguinius' dead body.

The few survivors of the original Legion that fought on Earth would not have been affected and nor would those marines who have progenoids that are descended from theirs. Unfortunately, probability seems to have caught up with the Angels at last and there simply aren't any of those untainted progenoids left.

Onisuzume
16-09-2009, 22:04
Wasn't it partially because of how their recruits got improved to Space Marine standards? With those sarcophagi and all? When *did* that start anyway?

Jackmojo
16-09-2009, 22:31
I would think all of the current Blood Angels seed is tainted since they use that odd blood mixing system (and keeping the blood alive by storing it in the Sanguinary Priests).

As to the Sarchophagi method (Insanguination I believe they called it), I think I recall it being started before the Heresy, as each legion pursued its own methods preferred by their Primarch.

Jack

Argastes
16-09-2009, 23:59
Wheres your souce for there life spans?

We know they live until they are killed in battle as ive never known one to die of old age, but theres no mention of a 'average' life span in any source book i can think of.

No, we don't know that; we know just the opposite. Read the thread before posting, this was addressed (by me) on the first page of the thread. To repeat myself, Angels of Death says:

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

This makes it implicitly clear that Space Marines have a finite lifespan imposed by the physical limits of their bodies, and while that lifespan is much longer than the lifespan of a normal human, it still exists and a Marine would eventually die of old age if they survived long enough without being killed in battle. It also makes it implicitly clear that for most chapters, the average lifespan is less than 1000 years (though how long it is, we can't say for sure--at least a couple hundred years, maybe as long as 800-900).

Furthermore, the reasons that you never hear of Space Marines dying of old age have also already been addressed in this thread. For one thing, all the fluff and stories that provide us with our insight into the setting are oriented towards combat and heroic ass-kicking (especially the Marine stories), so it is unlikely that GW's fluff writers would ever decide to write a story about a Marine dying of old age even if it is a common occurrence. And it's probably not a common occurrence because, secondly, we do know that Marines place a very high value on martial honor and heroism in battle; it's therefore likely that old Marines who can feel themselves weakening with age would make a decision to sacrifice themselves heroically in battle--charge an Ork dread with a melta-bomb, or something--rather than allow themselves to weaken and die naturally. Thirdly, since Marines are constantly fighting, it could be quite uncommon for Marines to ever reach that point in the first place; many only one in one hundred Marines ever survives enough battles to start to feel the effects of age.

wolf40k
17-09-2009, 01:45
Ragnar Blackmane, of the Space Wolves, Is considered the youngest Wolf Lord ever at the age of 200 and Logan Grimnar is apparently 700 years old, and Ulrik The Slayer mentored them both, so I would say that they are one of the longer lived chapters.

Argastes
17-09-2009, 01:58
Ragnar Blackmane, of the Space Wolves, Is considered the youngest Wolf Lord ever at the age of 200 and Logan Grimnar is apparently 700 years old, and Ulrik The Slayer mentored them both, so I would say that they are one of the longer lived chapters.

This seems reasonable. Ulrik is probably at least 850-900 if he was a wolf priest when Logan Grimnar was young. Let's bear in mind that the fluff never says that only Blood Angels are capable of reaching 1000 years of age; it just says that it is "not uncommon" for them to do so. So it's possible that Marines from other chapters can also reach that age, it's just more rare for them.

Jackmojo
17-09-2009, 03:21
It might also be that Blood Angels are noticeably younger even at those extremes of age (eternally young) whereas Logan and Ulrik are both grizzled old coots. Look at how Dante is described and he's well over a thousand. Other then 'grim faced Lemartes' the Blood Angel characters are almost always described as handsome or even beautiful young men.

Jack

Argastes
17-09-2009, 03:25
This is a good point too, they don't seem to age visibly as they get older. They're not actually "eternally young" (they are mortal and do die of old age, just like all other Space Marines), but they do always LOOK young.

Warsurge
17-09-2009, 03:36
Not really a Space Marine but Constantin Valdor (Adeptus Custodes Chief), is still alive presumably protecting the Emperor in the throne room. He accompanied Russ and the Space Wolves to apprehend Magnus and the Thousand Sons after breaking the law (using psychic powers). He was on his way back with the Wolves to the Imperial Palace to try to play a defensive role, but supposedly was caught up with Alpha Legion and had to fight with them. Hes been around for a long long time.

Warsurge
17-09-2009, 03:38
This is a good point too, they don't seem to age visibly as they get older. They're not actually "eternally young" (they are mortal and do die of old age, just like all other Space Marines), but they do always LOOK young.

I always thought since they had the Primarch's DNA (aka Emperors DNA) they were sort of immortal just like their fathers (Primarchs) and their all-father (Emperor).

Argastes
17-09-2009, 03:50
I always thought since they had the Primarch's DNA (aka Emperors DNA) they were sort of immortal just like their fathers (Primarchs) and their all-father (Emperor).

No. This is incorrect. PLEASE read the thread before posting. I explained this on page 1 of the thread, and then had to explain it again just a few posts ago, because pookie didn't read the thread either and said the same thing. We wouldn't have to keep going over the same thing multiple times in one thread if people would read the thread before posting.

The fluff makes it clear that Space Marines are not immortal and have finite lifespans. Long, but finite. Read the thread and you will find fluff citations to this effect.

Prodigalson
17-09-2009, 05:17
Luther was/is a Dark Angel Captain (technically 2nd in command) and is still alive in Stasisi in the Rock. As to was he a loyalist... I'll let someone else be the judge of that.

He did repent, and the Lion has forgiven him and is awaiting the Call of the Lion.

BrotherMoses
17-09-2009, 05:30
Yes, the blood angel longer lived fluff thing is kind of funny. Especially when I keep getting the feeling that they want to make space marines immortal.

NightrawenII
17-09-2009, 08:41
Luther was/is a Dark Angel Captain (technically 2nd in command) and is still alive in Stasisi in the Rock. As to was he a loyalist... I'll let someone else be the judge of that.

He did repent, and the Lion has forgiven him and is awaiting the Call of the Lion.

Ehm, so that page in the C: Dark Angels about incapability of the Grandmasters of the Dark Angels get a repentace out of him is what?

pookie
17-09-2009, 12:18
No, we don't know that; we know just the opposite. Read the thread before posting, this was addressed (by me) on the first page of the thread. To repeat myself, Angels of Death says:

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

This makes it implicitly clear that Space Marines have a finite lifespan imposed by the physical limits of their bodies, and while that lifespan is much longer than the lifespan of a normal human, it still exists and a Marine would eventually die of old age if they survived long enough without being killed in battle. It also makes it implicitly clear that for most chapters, the average lifespan is less than 1000 years (though how long it is, we can't say for sure--at least a couple hundred years, maybe as long as 800-900).

Furthermore, the reasons that you never hear of Space Marines dying of old age have also already been addressed in this thread. For one thing, all the fluff and stories that provide us with our insight into the setting are oriented towards combat and heroic ass-kicking (especially the Marine stories), so it is unlikely that GW's fluff writers would ever decide to write a story about a Marine dying of old age even if it is a common occurrence. And it's probably not a common occurrence because, secondly, we do know that Marines place a very high value on martial honor and heroism in battle; it's therefore likely that old Marines who can feel themselves weakening with age would make a decision to sacrifice themselves heroically in battle--charge an Ork dread with a melta-bomb, or something--rather than allow themselves to weaken and die naturally. Thirdly, since Marines are constantly fighting, it could be quite uncommon for Marines to ever reach that point in the first place; many only one in one hundred Marines ever survives enough battles to start to feel the effects of age.

Hold ya horses, did you even read what i put before typing that all out? i asked about what info we have on there Lifespan ( which until Salamander, ended only in detah during combat/due to combat injuries).

BA do live for Thousands of Years, but does it mention them dying of old age? no, so we can only speculate on why GW doesnt publish this info.

misinformation is just as bad for the hobby as people making things up.

Marines could in theory live forever, we simply do not now if that is true or not ( and probably never will).

pookie
17-09-2009, 12:23
Hold ya horses, did you even read what i put before typing that all out? i asked about what info we have on there Lifespan ( which until Salamander, ended only in detah during combat/due to combat injuries).

BA do live for Thousands of Years, but does it mention them dying of old age? no, so we can only speculate on why GW doesnt publish this info.

misinformation is just as bad for the hobby as people making things up.

Marines could in theory live forever, we simply do not now if that is true or not ( and probably never will).

**edit as i have re read the thread AGAIN**


I don't think so, Marines do eventually die of old age, it just takes much longer than for a normal human. Remember that the Blood Angels are noted for having exceptionally long lifespans. They wouldn't say that if Marines were functionally immortal and didn't have a finite lifespan.

right, so you dont think so, sorry but can i ask are you Alan Merrit? nah didnt think so, please climb down of your high horse, trying to claim we are wrong and you are right, none of us are, as we do not have any info to say they die of old age!

unless you can back up the fact that they are not immortal, which you obviously cant ( quoting a Dex that states typicall they live for thousands of years - but doesnt say anything more about mortality rates/reasons ) is not sufficent to back you claim up.

Argastes
17-09-2009, 12:42
Did you even read the fluff bit I posted?

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

So Space Marines have a finite lifespan, and the basis of this finite lifespan is physical. This means, ipso facto, that they are not immortal and can die of old age. If someone is "physically" long-lived, that doesn't mean they are good at avoiding death in battle. You are right, we can only speculate about why GW doesn't talk about them dying of old age, but it IS clear that they aren't immortal. I don't know how you can read the fluff I've posted about different chapters having different degrees of physical longevity and then claim otherwise. That's willful ignorance.

And no, it doesn't say Blood Angels live for "thousands" of years as you state; it just says "a thousand", singular. Dante is noted as being 1,100 years old and among the oldest.

pookie
17-09-2009, 12:46
Did you even read the fluff bit I posted?

"Physically the Blood Angels are among the longest lived of all chapters. One of the peculiarities of the flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years."

So Space Marines have a finite lifespan, and the basis of this finite lifespan is physical. This means, ipso facto, that they are not immortal and can die of old age. If someone is "physically" long-lived, that doesn't mean they are good at avoiding death in battle.

And no, it doesn't say Blood Angels live for "thousands" of years as you state; it just says "a thousand", singular. Dante is noted as being 1,100 years old and among the oldest.


once piece of fluff that applies to BA only? sorry but why are you continuing to say we are wrong and you are right? when its a question neither of us can answer???? and why cant we, because we dont have the info, so yes Marines could be Immortal, and yes they may not be. but your evidance certainly only proves that BA live to a thousand (or more !) years.

Karhedron
17-09-2009, 12:49
"Curse?" You speak of the Black Rage as though it were some sort of mystical spell or something; it is not:
Fluff has been rewritten on the BAs more than once. The fluff I read is the same as yours but more recent stuff has involved a daft "psychic echo" in geneseed that affected even those Blood Angels not on the Battle Barge when Sanguinius died. Daft stuff to put in IMHO but be aware that some people may not even know older versions of the fluff exist.

Vets like us are the long fangs of Warseer! :D

Argastes
17-09-2009, 13:01
once piece of fluff that applies to BA only? sorry but why are you continuing to say we are wrong and you are right? when its a question neither of us can answer???? and why cant we, because we dont have the info, so yes Marines could be Immortal, and yes they may not be. but your evidance certainly only proves that BA live to a thousand (or more !) years.

I don't know what to say. You seem to be continually ignoring the clear contextual evidence in the fluff.

How can you say it "applies to Blood Angels only" when it explicitly discusses the lifespan of Blood Angels in relation to the lifespan of other chapters? That means that it tells us something about other Chapters as well as the Blood Angels. Let's see if an example will help you understand: If I say "watermelons grow to be heavier than other melons and may weigh up to ten pounds", I'm not just making a statement about watermelons, I am also making a statement about other melons; I am implicitly stating that other melons (usually) weigh less than ten pounds. Do you see what I'm talking about?

Similarly, the fluff in question makes several things clear: Firstly, that Blood Angels have a physical lifespan that can often reach 1000 years. Secondly, that this is longer than the physical lifespan of other Space Marines. Thirdly, therefore, other Space Marines have a physical lifespan that is (usually) less than one thousand years.

I don't understand how you can fail to grasp this. The fluff clearly tells us that Space Marines have finite lifespans--often up to 1000 years for Blood Angels, somewhat less for other chapters. What part don't you get?

pookie
17-09-2009, 13:19
I don't know what to say. You seem to be continually ignoring the clear contextual evidence in the fluff.

How can you say it "applies to Blood Angels only" when it explicitly discusses the lifespan of Blood Angels in relation to the lifespan of other chapters? That means that it tells us something about other Chapters as well as the Blood Angels. Let's see if an example will help you understand: If I say "watermelons grow to be heavier than other melons and may weigh up to ten pounds", I'm not just making a statement about watermelons, I am also making a statement about other melons; I am implicitly stating that other melons (usually) weigh less than ten pounds. Do you see what I'm talking about?

Similarly, the fluff in question makes several things clear: Firstly, that Blood Angels have a physical lifespan that can often reach 1000 years. Secondly, that this is longer than the physical lifespan of other Space Marines. Thirdly, therefore, other Space Marines have a physical lifespan that is (usually) less than one thousand years.

I don't understand how you can fail to grasp this. The fluff clearly tells us that Space Marines have finite lifespans--often up to 1000 years for Blood Angels, somewhat less for other chapters. What part don't you get?


Please dont patronise me, i can read very well thankyou. (spell, well thats another matter :D )

the BA are AMONGST the longest lived, which would seem to me there are others who live longer, yes there are those who dont, but it certainly the be all and end all to the question " do marines live forever"

after all theres a salamander ( so i understand ) who survied 10.000 years , only to die, when fellow Sallies found him ).

Your very first post, indecates that you think this is true and your unwilling to bend from this, and imo you are neither wrong nor right, you simply do not know, you can find one qoute which doesnt quite backup what your saying, you just continue to argue it does.

if a BA can and do live over a thousand years, why cant a "insert chapter name" marine not live for 10.000/1000.000 etc years? we cannot prove nor disprove this, and thats all im saying.

Yet you seem to think you are Alan Merritt and seem to have a higher than thow type attitude. In 6/12 months time when some comes along saying i know that Marines dont live forever because i read something somewhere ( which turns out to be your interpritation ) then you really aint helping the hobby out.

so back to what i first posted, wheres your actual source that they are NOT immortal? ( dont re post the BA one please, as far as im cocnerned that isnt proof ).

Argastes
17-09-2009, 15:24
If you don't see that the BA quote in question makes it clear that Marines have finite lifespans, there's nothing more I can say to you. It's a basic question of reading comprehension. That quote exactly supports what I am saying. What do you think the words "physical long-lived" mean? Why would Blood Angels be noted for having exceptional longevity if Marines are immortal? Longevity has no meaning except in relation to organisms with a finite lifespan.

If you want to ignore this and believe in immortal marines, no-one can stop you. Ultimately there is no argument against willful ignorance.

pookie
17-09-2009, 15:35
If you don't see that the BA quote in question makes it clear that Marines have finite lifespans, there's nothing more I can say to you. It's a basic question of reading comprehension. That quote exactly supports what I am saying. What do you think the words "physical long-lived" mean? Why would Blood Angels be noted for having exceptional longevity if Marines are immortal? Longevity has no meaning except in relation to organisms with a finite lifespan.

If you want to ignore this and believe in immortal marines, no-one can stop you. Ultimately there is no argument against willful ignorance.

erm, i could say right back at you, as you clearly have not read what ive posted at all.

normally id say lets agree to disagree, but considering i wasnt actually disagreeing, i just wanted to find out where you was getting your info from.... then i wont say it.

**edit**
since your working on the principle Lived - means that they will then die, why not try looking up the word Lived and see what it actually means, before becoming annoying and slinging mud at people.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lived

Argastes
17-09-2009, 15:46
erm, i could say right back at you, as you clearly have not read what ive posted at all.

No, I have read all of what you've posted. Much of it is irrelevant to the discussion, such as your comment about the Salamander who survived 10,000 years (his planet was embroiled in a warp storm, remember, and warp storms affect the flow of time). But you're right, it only states that Blood Angels are "among" the longest-lived chapters, so it is possible that there are other chapters where the average lifespan is even longer than that of Blood Angels. I don't have a problem with that. But the quote DOES make it clear that Space Marine lifespans are finite, no matter how long.

I ask again: What do you think that the term "physically long-lived" means, and why would GW discuss the varying lifespans of Marines if they were immortal.

Also, does anyone reading this thread have the 2nd Edition Ultramarines codex or the Codex Imperialis on hand? I'm almost sure that one of theses two texts explicitly states that Space Marines are not immortal, but I don't have mine with me to check.

I do know for a fact that the Codex Imperialis states explicitly that even the Primarchs "while long-lived, were not immortal".

pookie
17-09-2009, 15:58
No, I have read all of what you've posted. Much of it is irrelevant to the discussion, such as your comment about the Salamander who survived 10,000 years (his planet was embroiled in a warp storm, remember, and warp storms affect the flow of time). But you're right, it only states that Blood Angels are "among" the longest-lived chapters, so it is possible that there are other chapters where the average lifespan is even longer than that of Blood Angels. I don't have a problem with that. But the quote DOES make it clear that Space Marine lifespans are finite, no matter how long.

I ask again: What do you think that the term "physically long-lived" means, and why would GW discuss the varying lifespans of Marines if they were immortal.

Also, does anyone reading this thread have the 2nd Edition Ultramarines codex or the Codex Imperialis on hand? I'm almost sure that one of theses two texts explicitly states that Space Marines are not immortal, but I don't have mine with me to check.

I do know for a fact that the Codex Imperialis states explicitly that even the Primarchs "while long-lived, were not immortal".

well personally the use of 'lived' means something diffrent to me than you, Vampires for example are very long lived - and are also immortal, my great gran was very long lived, but died at 92 ( im not compairing my Great Gran to a Vamp btw ).

Because they have said Lived, rather than something else, then to me it is open ended.

The point i was trying to make about have you read what i put, was that i dont personally belive it one way or the other, what i think is that GW have been too scetchy for you or me, to sit there and be right. and this ( our conversation came about because i missed your 2nd post ) and wouldnt have happened if you hadnt been so in my face with your responce.

Argastes
17-09-2009, 16:04
well personally the use of 'lived' means something diffrent to me than you, Vampires for example are very long lived - and are also immortal, my great gran was very long lived, but died at 92 ( im not compairing my Great Gran to a Vamp btw).

Understandable to a point; if the fluff simply said "Space Marines are long-lived", I would agree that it is unclear whether or not they are immortal. But when it says that some chapters are MORE long-lived than others, that clearly rules out the possibility of immortality. Such comparisons would be both impossible and meaningless if their lifespans were not finite. Do you still not see what I mean? I'm sorry if I seem patronizing or whatever but I am just baffled as to how anyone could fail to see that comparisons between the differing lifespans of different chapters makes it clear that those lifespans are finite.

pookie
17-09-2009, 16:13
Understandable to a point; if the fluff simply said "Space Marines are long-lived", I would agree that it is unclear whether or not they are immortal. But when it says that some chapters are MORE long-lived than others, that clearly rules out the possibility of immortality. Such comparisons would be both impossible and meaningless if their lifespans were not finite. Do you still not see what I mean? I'm sorry if I seem patronizing or whatever but I am just baffled as to how anyone could fail to see that comparisons between the differing lifespans of different chapters makes it clear that those lifespans are finite.

and again i dont disagree, i just think that there choice of words does leave it open to at least a possability, after all with help even normal humans can live for ever in a 40K setting.

i see entirly where your coming from, but as they are amonsgt the longest lived, then that indecates some live longer, and why couldnt they be 'immortal' unless killed in battle?

we certainly have more info in favour of them not being immortal i certainly agree with that, but saying its 100% immpossible isnt exactly right.

Lexington
17-09-2009, 16:17
Also, does anyone reading this thread have the 2nd Edition Ultramarines codex or the Codex Imperialis on hand? I'm almost sure that one of theses two texts explicitly states that Space Marines are not immortal, but I don't have mine with me to check.
It doesn't say anything quite like that, but it does say, in Chaplain Cassius' description, that Marines "rarely show signs of extreme aging until they are over three hundred years old." I argue that if Marines are affected by aging - especially "extreme" aging - that they cannot be functionally immortal.


I do know for a fact that the Codex Imperialis states explicitly that even the Primarchs "while long-lived, were not immortal".
That it did, and it goes on to say that "the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years." This at least suggests that Marines, like their Primarchs, have limited lifespans.

None of this, of course, particularly matters now, as BL is in the driver's seat for background development, and like hell if they're going to pay attention to the old stuff (or good taste, for that matter).

pookie
17-09-2009, 16:20
That it did, and it goes on to say that "the last of their kind finally died after fourteen hundred years." This at least suggests that Marines, like their Primarchs, have limited lifespans.



any idea which Primarch this was?, as i didnt know of any who died from old age..:D

looking like the few bits we have do back up the not immortal theory, i just like to be clear when people start saying things that are not exactly written in stone ( tho the Primarch quote about not being immortal is possibly the best we can get )

Lexington
17-09-2009, 16:27
any idea which Primarch this was?, as i didnt know of any who died from old age..:D
This is from just before the stories of any Primarchs were codified (except Leman Russ), and a good decade or so before the Index Astartes articles fleshed out the majority of them, so it's sort of unclear. I think the only Loyalist Primarch that who hasn't been shown to have died violently or disappear is Vulkan, so he'd be a likely candidate for correlating this older bit of background with the newer canon.

Jackmojo
17-09-2009, 16:58
Its possible that its referencing their recuperative abilities as well, perhaps Blood Angels live longer because they recover from battlefield injuries better then their cohorts, which leads to a longer combat lifetime (which, of course, for marines is equal to their total lifetime).

Jack

Gamer8
17-09-2009, 21:37
lol perhaps it is stating that using an "experiment" that would be the equivalent of Adeptus Biologicas scientific method.

Adbio scientist: "I shall find out which space marines live the longest!"
ABS: "Excuse me, Mr. Templar who is the oldest Templar you know?"
BT Marine: "Uhhh Brother Cornubel is 733 years old"
ABS: "Excuse me, Mr. Ultramarine, how old is the oldest marine you know?"
Ultramarine: "Truly, it is Calgar at 788 years old"
etc.
etc.
Dante at 1100 years old
ABS: "I deduce that Blood Angels gene seed makes them live longer!"

In other words, maybe we're just lucky. ;)

wolf40k
17-09-2009, 23:02
lol perhaps it is stating that using an "experiment" that would be the equivalent of Adeptus Biologicas scientific method.

Adbio scientist: "I shall find out which space marines live the longest!"
ABS: "Excuse me, Mr. Templar who is the oldest Templar you know?"
BT Marine: "Uhhh Brother Cornubel is 733 years old"
ABS: "Excuse me, Mr. Ultramarine, how old is the oldest marine you know?"
Ultramarine: "Truly, it is Calgar at 788 years old"
etc.
etc.
Dante at 1100 years old
ABS: "I deduce that Blood Angels gene seed makes them live longer!"

In other words, maybe we're just lucky. ;)

you don't become a company commander just because you are the oldest one around, look at the space wolves Wolf Priest character, he was a mentor to Logan Grimnar, when he was a young pup.

Jackmojo
17-09-2009, 23:05
Isn't there also some discrepancy on Dante's age? I thought I also recalled a quote where he has lead the Blood Angels for over 1100 years (rather then just fought that long) and presumably he was a veteran prior to that...


you don't become a company commander just because you are the oldest one around, look at the space wolves Wolf Priest character, he was a mentor to Logan Grimnar, when he was a young pup.

Same with Dante, in the 2nd ed codex his old Sergeant from when he was a Scout is a special character standard bearer (with a terrible punny name of Cleutin, IIRC)

Jack

Argastes
17-09-2009, 23:17
??? Cleutin's name is punny?

HereticLosMorte
18-09-2009, 19:39
no one is even taking into account that "physically long-lived" could also mean that the blood angels and few others survive longer lifespans than most other chapters, where the death-rate could potentially be higher, from bad circumstances, less experience, etc.

technically, pookie is correct, in that it does not say, if a space marine were to live in a safe environment with infinite sustenance, he would still die.

all we know is that, no space marine has been known to live more than 10,000 yrs (salamander) and most only have lifespans of hundreds of yrs (due to death in war). the salamander in question, could not move, therefore, he could not eat/drink (being a space marine does not exclude you from gaining sustenance to survive, it merely allows one to extend between periods of sustenance.)

remember, space marines have really only been around 10k yrs in fluff terms, so there is no way any could be older than that. we also don't know of every marine that ever existed, so we cannot compare.

in the perfect environment, a space marine could potentially be immortal.

Prodigalson
18-09-2009, 21:29
Luther outranks even Azrael. He says that the Lion has already forgiven him. I think the Lion's forgiveness outchumps some newbie Interregator Chalain.

Argastes
18-09-2009, 21:35
He says that the Lion has already forgiven him.

And if he says it, it must be true! Right guys?

Mr_Rose
18-09-2009, 21:47
Luther outranks even Azrael.
Isn't that like saying Napoleon outranked Wellington, therefore it was totally a good idea to try and take Russia in the dead of winter?

Warsurge
18-09-2009, 22:29
No. This is incorrect. PLEASE read the thread before posting. I explained this on page 1 of the thread, and then had to explain it again just a few posts ago, because pookie didn't read the thread either and said the same thing. We wouldn't have to keep going over the same thing multiple times in one thread if people would read the thread before posting.

The fluff makes it clear that Space Marines are not immortal and have finite lifespans. Long, but finite. Read the thread and you will find fluff citations to this effect.

Did you see how I said "sort of"? Not completely but to a degree of 1000 years makes them seem almost immortal therefore me saying "sort of" immortal.

Lord Lorne Walkier
17-10-2009, 20:59
The idea that Marines are immortal comes from Horus Rising, where Mersadie asks Loken about whether they can die of old age, and Loken says they don't really know, as no marine has ever lived long enough TO die of old age before dying from violence.. 'course, that was back in the Crusade, when no marine could have been much older than 200 anyway, right..? Some Warseers have jumped on this idea and spun a myth from it ;)
As Lexington says, they clearly age and die, there's a ton of fluff evidence.

Let me start by saying i am a Loken fan boy so don't bother trying to point this out to mock me. I think he lived past Istavaan III to become a founding member of the Grey Knights along with others like Tarvitz and Garro. I know there are many places i could post thoughts like this but i think this is a good a place as any for one simple reason. I think Loken is still alive. I think the above post forshadows this. What could be more ironic then to have Loken answer this question from Mersadie with his own "immortality"? I just finished Salamander and the presense of the old Astartes not only shows that this is at least posible but i think it was done on purpose to hint at what this thread is all about. Sure he was on the verge of death and his planet was caught in warp storm but no ware dose it say that the time on this planet was any different. Dose it really matter if time was a bit slower? so what if he "only" lived for 7k years and not 10. He lived for long enough to do his duty. I think he would have lived for 30k years if that is what fate had in store for him. Age is nothing more then a number. I think Loken has a date with destiny that has yet to be told. I think he is fated to do what only he can do. Kill Lucius for good. They have fought 2 times and as it stands they are tied 1-1. This kind of thing demands a tiebreaker. I think Loken is they only living being who could kill Lucius and not take pleasure in the act, thus ending his curse. I know full well that my ideas require many separate huge leaps of faith any one of then not coming true would make all i say worthless but I'm OK with it. I think when GW goes out of their way to say it is the greatest desire for the Grey Knights not to be be put in Dreadnought but to be buried with the other Hero's of their chapter screams that there is at least one who has been denied. I think Loken's fate is what all Grey Knights fear. The Emperor wont let him die until he fulfills his destiny. I also think that the beginning of Horus rising with Loken telling his story about seeing Horus kill the Emperor is him telling the story in the present to us the readers and some group of Grey Knights. Revealing the Truth about the Heresy and scaring the pants off of some group of newbie Grey knights. Maybe he is a Venerable Dreadnought........

Yodhrin
18-10-2009, 07:46
Understandable to a point; if the fluff simply said "Space Marines are long-lived", I would agree that it is unclear whether or not they are immortal. But when it says that some chapters are MORE long-lived than others, that clearly rules out the possibility of immortality. Such comparisons would be both impossible and meaningless if their lifespans were not finite. Do you still not see what I mean? I'm sorry if I seem patronizing or whatever but I am just baffled as to how anyone could fail to see that comparisons between the differing lifespans of different chapters makes it clear that those lifespans are finite.

You are aware that the background has moved on since 2nd Edition, right? 2nd Edition wasn't awfully far removed from Rogue Trader, where the Marines were psychotic war criminals who acted like a modern military force on steroids.

The most recent piece of fluff is the correct one, whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, and the most recent fluff strongly suggests that Marines are functionally immortal. Do I like the little bit of Dragon fluff from Mechanicum? Hell no, I think it's retarded, but it is official, so I don't go around presenting my opinion as fact, which is what you're doing chief.

Phoebus
18-10-2009, 12:04
Codex Imperialis:
Asserts that even Primarchs are not immortal, specifying that, although long-lived, the last of them died "after fourteen hundred years".

We know this isn't the case. Those Primarchs that survived the Horus Heresy have either ...
(A) become Daemon Primarchs, ...
(B) are in some form of stasis (e.g., Guilliman, Lion), or ...
(C) have disappeared, their true fates unknown (e.g., Corax, Khan, Russ, Vulkan).

Codex Angels of Death:
States that the Blood Angels are the "longest-lived" of the Astartes.

Codex Ultramarines:
States that after 300 years or so, Astartes begin displaying signs of intense aging.

Codex Space Wolves:
States that Logan Grimnar has lived for "some seven hundred years". His stats nonetheless represent an individual uncompromised by old age--superior, in fact, to other Chapter Masters of younger years. It also states that Ulrik the Slayer was Grimnar's mentor (and therefore, presumably, his elder). Nor does Ulrik's stat line indicate someone compromised by age.

Index Astartes:
States (under Variations between Chapters) that...
"Although a Chapter's Apothecaries and surgeons are able to perform the necessary implant operations, they do not necessarily understand the exact functioning of each organ. The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualized and misinterpreted."

The Fifth Edition Core Rulebook:
States that ...
"Time flows strangely within the Eye of Terror. While a month or day passes in the material universe an hour or a century may pass amid the swirling Warp rifts of the Eye."

Codex Eye of Terror:
Reveals that non-Chaos Astartes have been able to survive for the last ten millennia (the Thirteenth Company of the Space Wolves).

Horus Rising:
States that...
"To all intents and purposes, and by every measurement known to the gene-scientists and gerontologists, the Astartes, like the primarchs, were immortals. Age would not wither them, nor bring them down. They would live forever... five thousand years, ten thousand, beyond even that into some unimaginable millennium."

Based on the above, we can arrive at certain conclusions:
1. Space Marines in 40k have an imperfect understanding of the processes by which new Space Marines are created.
2. Space Marines in 40k in certain cases display evidence of aging past a certain number of centuries of life.
3. Nonetheless, Space Marines that do display signs of aging, remain uncompromised in terms of fighting ability.
4. Subject matter experts in 30k arrived to the conclusion that Astartes were effectively immortal.
5. The exception to this, one Captain Iacton Qruze, is considered a relic and an anomaly. Other Terran-born Astartes that predate the beginning of the Great Crusade, such as Nathaniel Garro, do not display such characteristics.
6. Time flows differently in the Eye of Terror, but it can run much slower as well as much faster.
7. Both the warriors of the Thirteenth Company of the Space Wolves and non-mutated Chaos Space Marines display striking longevity.
8. Both the warriors of the Thirteenth Company of the Space Wolves and non-mutated Chaos Space Marines are products of 30k, and thus of primary subject matter experts--as opposed to individuals who "misinterpret" or "ritualize" the process of making a Space Marine.

Ergo, symptoms of physical aging among Astartes is an anomaly not intended by the originators of the process for creating Space Marines. That process now varies in technique and expertise from Chapter to Chapter, and, perhaps, from Apothecary to Apothecary (depending on the circumstances).

Modern Chapters probably are more often than not probably in possession of debased knowledge and thus create flawed versions of Astartes that, among other things, can eventually look aged. Some might have (accidentally, or otherwise) discovered alternative techniques that make up for this, such as the Blood Angels. There is always the possibility that some modern Chapter has managed to preserve the knowledge of their ancestors without corrupting it.

Nonetheless, aged-looking Astartes can be--and typically are--just as effective as younger looking Astartes. The sole exception I can imagine to all this is "Deathwatch", by William King and Bryan Ansell, which was written in 1990 and offers age ranges that can't be reconciled even by the standards of Codex Ultramarines (Astartes who die of old age within approximately 200 years, for example).

Those Astartes created in the Great Crusade era, including the Thirteenth Great Company of the Space Wolves, and non-mutated Chaos Space Marines, are most likely functionally immortal. As they were intended to be.

Cheers,
P.

Felwether
18-10-2009, 14:28
I think we have to take this "functionally immortal" business with more than a pinch of salt. If you view it in context the Great Crusade had been going on for no longer than 200 years and sure, no marines had died of old age up to that point but they may have died after 300-400 if they weren't killed in combat.

Also the same book mentions Iacton Qruze who IIRC is basically described as being fairly old and doddery. Now I have to say I subscribe to the theory that if something shows signs of extreme ageing it can die (physical ageing is essentially the body starting to decay, right?)

Also- and this may be unpopular- I have to say I don't like the idea of using BL books as sources of canonical background. Many authors tend to take a certain amount of artistic license with the fluff...

Phoebus
18-10-2009, 14:41
Again, Iacton Qruze is the exception and stated anomaly--not the rule. Warriors like Garro had been around since before the Great Crusade, and had not shown evidence of aging.

Furthermore, the gerontologists and geneticists referenced in "Horus Rising" weren't offering their opinion after a mere two centuries; their orders, like the Emperor, had been about their business for a considerably longer time. :)

Lord Lorne Walkier
18-10-2009, 16:41
Again, Iacton Qruze is the exception and stated anomaly--not the rule. Warriors like Garro had been around since before the Great Crusade, and had not shown evidence of aging.

Furthermore, the gerontologists and geneticists referenced in "Horus Rising" weren't offering their opinion after a mere two centuries; their orders, like the Emperor, had been about their business for a considerably longer time. :)

I don't think Garro was near as old as Qruze. Garro was a Terran but i don't remember him being around before the Crusade started. Qruze was around during the reunification wars. I think many legions continued to recruit from Terra after the crusade started. Garro was a Dusk Raider but that dose not mean he was fighting during the reunification. He was pre Moritarian, but he could have been a scout at the time his Primarch was found. I get the impression that he might have been inducted early on in the Crusade but it matters also how early Moritarin was found. Qruze had many years under his belt when Horus was found and he was the first. Qruze was a relic, Garro a Veteran.

Yodhrin
18-10-2009, 19:11
((Everything I couldn't be bothered to look up))
Cheers,
P.

Thanks, that's the most reasoned examination of the facts as they stand today in the thread.

Phoebus
19-10-2009, 16:28
Yodhrin,

You're most welcome. :)

Lord Lorne,

I didn't mean to imply that Garro was older than Qruze. Based on what's said in "Flight of the Eisenstein", though, it sure seems like Garro does date back to at least the later part of the Unification Wars:

"Garro had been born on Terra and drawn up into the Legiones Astartes before men had even known the name of Barbarus. In those years the XIV Legion had gone by a different title, and they had no primarch but the Emperor himself. Garro swelled with pride to remember that time. They had been the Dusk Raiders, so known because of their signature tactic of attacking a foe at nightfall. ... Many enemies had thrown down their weapons the moment the sun dipped beneath the horizon, rather than dare to fight them."

The very next paragraph describes how the Primarchs were snatched away, and the Dusk Raiders (along with the other Legions) went to the stars with the Emperor to find them.

That Qruze is older goes without saying. Dorn's insult to him is telling:

'"You dare to give me an order?' Dorn faced the old warrior. 'A relic who should have been retired centuries ago, you dare to do so?'"

I take this to mean that Qruze is of an older "model" of Astartes... probably from around the time that (per "Visions of Heresy") the Emperor was fielding proto-Marines in "Thunder Armour", in regiments of hundreds (as opposed to Legions of thousands or tens of thousands).

Cheers,
P.

HiveFleetEzekial
20-10-2009, 20:22
Luther outranks even Azrael. He says that the Lion has already forgiven him. I think the Lion's forgiveness outchumps some newbie Interregator Chalain.

This is the second to third time you've said 'he's been forgiven' in this thread. And, despite being asked to do so, you've yet to cite a source to back up your claim. Either please do so (and an official source), so that others can confirm any possiblity of such an occurance.

Or..

Please get your facts straight.

1) Azrael is not an Interrorgator Chaplain. You may be thinking of Asmodai instead. ('You didn't see that' :skull:)

2) Nowhere in any of the fluff I've read does he ever say this! For, A) he doesn't even know Lonson is still alive. Hell, no one, save the Watchers and The Emperor, know that he's alive. So he can't have spoken with him, nor could he have been spoken to by him.
B) he betrayed his 'brother', and his (nearly, depending on perspective)entire Legion. They're not going to take his word for much.
C) were he to have been 'forgiven (specialy by Jonson) he'd have been given his 'just death' and rewarded by 'honorable execution', as all Fallen that repent are. So he wouldn't still be around for newer Chapter Masters to continually interrogate
D) again, none of the DA know that Jonson is still alive. Even if he would say something like that, they'd have no way of confirming it with them. It's not exactly like they can just go knock on his chaimber door and ask 'Hey, did you Forgive Luther yet for betraying us all x-thoughsand of years ago'.
And, last but not least, E) Given that Jonson is not known, to any DA, or even Luther, to still be alive, anything he says about being 'forgiven' by Jonson can be no more than an assumption on his part, likely (only) based on Jonson not dilivering the killing blow to Luther when he had the opporunity, leaving himself open for Luther to mortally wound him.

pookie
21-10-2009, 08:54
This is the second to third time you've said 'he's been forgiven' in this thread. And, despite being asked to do so, you've yet to cite a source to back up your claim. Either please do so (and an official source), so that others can confirm any possiblity of such an occurance.

Or..

Please get your facts straight.

1) Azrael is not an Interrorgator Chaplain. You may be thinking of Ezekiel instead.

yet Ezekiel is a Libby ( as you obv know), Sapphon and Asmodi (ai?) maybe its one of those who he's thinking of.


2) Nowhere in any of the fluff I've read does he ever say this! For, A) he doesn't even know Lonson is still alive. Hell, no one, save the Watchers and The Emperor, know that he's alive. So he can't have spoken with him, nor could he have been spoken to by him.



I have read a qoute where Luther states this, either AoD dex of the recent DA Dex, i'l try and dig it out tonight and post tommorow, but Luther does claim to have been forgiven By Johnson.

But your points still stand, Luther doesnt 'trump' Azreal in any respect, even if he was forgiven, why would he resume command of a Chapter that he betrayed.

Gdolkin
21-10-2009, 12:36
Codex AoD states that Luther, when discovered by the loyal Dark Angels, "constantly repeated the same words over and over again: the Primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark and one day he would return to forgive Luther..", NOT that he has already been forgiven. page 13.

HiveFleetEzekial
21-10-2009, 13:22
yet Ezekiel is a Libby ( as you obv know), Sapphon and Asmodi (ai?) maybe its one of those who he's thinking of.

<_<
>_>

What? Ofcourse I knew! I blame being tired, and seeing my own pic, and name, and they just sorta.. merged together.. xP

Gdolkin
21-10-2009, 13:26
Your avatar is Asmodai, right? ;)

HiveFleetEzekial
21-10-2009, 13:36
Like I said, the pic, and the name sorta 'merged'. And I wasn't far from sleep.


'S my story and I'm stickin to it! ;P

Whitehorn
21-10-2009, 13:37
Lucius, Abaddon, Bile (albeit Apothecary back then), Typhon, Ahriman.

Whitehorn
21-10-2009, 13:54
Y
I didn't mean to imply that Garro was older than Qruze.

Don't they agree to disagree who is older?

From what I remember of their 'chat', Garro was born first, but has spent longer in the warp (which they assume is slower) so Qruze is physically older...

pookie
21-10-2009, 14:20
Codex AoD states that Luther, when discovered by the loyal Dark Angels, "constantly repeated the same words over and over again: the Primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark and one day he would return to forgive Luther..", NOT that he has already been forgiven. page 13.


Thankyou, spot on, he has yet to be forgiven, saves me digging out the books tonight.


<_<
>_>

What? Ofcourse I knew! I blame being tired, and seeing my own pic, and name, and they just sorta.. merged together.. xP


aye, you stick to that excuse ;)


Lucius, Abaddon, Bile (albeit Apothecary back then), Typhon, Ahriman.

yeah they are loyalists aint they :rolleyes:

although its aruable Lucius could never count, as he has died lots of times since the HH, he just gets reborn each time :D

Phoebus
21-10-2009, 15:53
Whitehorn,

There's no real way to reconcile that one. In "Horus Rising", no mention of Qruze's birthplace was made, and his background (Wars of Unification) certainly implied he was Terran.

Subsequent books, though, state that he is Cthonian. Personally, I think the authors simply didn't check with one another on what was a harmless detail. I really don't see how this could this could pass, though. Has Qruze not spent a significant amount of time in Warp as well? How is it that no one else from these Great Crusade-era fleets looks old (with the exception of the Space Wolves from the Tales of Heresy story, who were inducted as adults to begin with)?

The only way I (personally, my opinion, nothing more) can reconcile this is through the fluff that states Cthonia was very close to Terra. If the two planets were within interstellar travel range of one another pre-Crusade, then it's (admittedly, not very) conceivable that Qruze, a Cthonian, made it to Terra and was inducted into the Emperor's army of proto-Astartes.

But again, I seriously just see this as a case of the authors not talking to one another.

Cheers,
P.

Lord Lorne Walkier
21-10-2009, 20:34
Whitehorn,

There's no real way to reconcile that one. In "Horus Rising", no mention of Qruze's birthplace was made, and his background (Wars of Unification) certainly implied he was Terran.

Subsequent books, though, state that he is Cthonian. Personally, I think the authors simply didn't check with one another on what was a harmless detail. I really don't see how this could this could pass, though. Has Qruze not spent a significant amount of time in Warp as well? How is it that no one else from these Great Crusade-era fleets looks old (with the exception of the Space Wolves from the Tales of Heresy story, who were inducted as adults to begin with)?

The only way I (personally, my opinion, nothing more) can reconcile this is through the fluff that states Cthonia was very close to Terra. If the two planets were within interstellar travel range of one another pre-Crusade, then it's (admittedly, not very) conceivable that Qruze, a Cthonian, made it to Terra and was inducted into the Emperor's army of proto-Astartes.

But again, I seriously just see this as a case of the authors not talking to one another.

Cheers,
P.

I agree. The reunification wars happened on Earth, BEFORE the Emperor reached out to the stars. Even if Cthonia was close enough to reach with out using the warp, that dose not mean they could do it in a short amount of time. I might take hundreds of years to reach with sub light drives. There is no way people from Cthonia could have fought in the Reunification of Terra. Maybe some one would give us the Quote that says Qruze is from Cthonia. I am also not sure Iacton so much looked old but acted old. It was how he talked about the old days that got him the term "Half-heard". His name was not the "Wrinkled warrior". I think it was how he acted that dated him.
Its like he is wearing an 80's style sweat suit, standing in a B-boy stance,
(http://www.digitaldj.jp/image/B-BoyStance.jpg )
when the others Astartes are rocking the skinny jeans, looking all Emo.
( http://www.lindadang.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/skinny.jpg )
He is going to stand out a bit. Even with the differences though he still held his own on Murder.

JChild
22-10-2009, 01:38
Hey guys what about Helbrecht. He was a minor character in Flight of the Einstein. But he was mentioned as a captain in the book. There is no doubt or debate if the High Marshal is alive. He must be one grizzled Templar by now.

Phoebus
22-10-2009, 07:08
Lord Lorne,

Horus Rising:
"'Hear, hear!' cried the ancient Iacton Qruze, ..."

"Iacton Qruze was an anachronism. Ancient and rather tiresome, he had been a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was the product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, ..."

"He had a long, tanned face, deeply lined with creases and folds, and his hair was white ..."

"Qruze was an irksome relic, ..."

False Gods:
'I know what I am, boy, a relic of a time long passed for our beloved Legion. You know that I remember when we fought without the Warmaster, can you imagine such a thing?'

Galaxy in Flames:
"Qruze was an example of just how little even the Legion's apothecaries knew of an Astartes' physiology. His face was as battered and gnarled as ancient oak, but his body was as wolf-tough, honed by years of fighting and not yet made weary by age."

"'I want you to remember Cthonia,’ said Euphrati, ..."
"What do you know of the planet of my birth?"
"'Only what I see inside you, Iacton,’ said Euphrati, ..."

"'I remember how it used to be,' he said. 'We were brothers on Cthonia. Not just among ourselves, but with our enemies, too. That was what the Emperor saw in us when he came to the hives."

So this really doesn't make sense.

Qruze is born of Cthonia, but also a product of the Unification Wars? How could he have achieved prominence with his Legion, or remembered fighting without Horus if he wasn't recruited until the Emperor showed up in Cthonia?

If he didn't join the Legion until the Emperor showed up, then he's no older than any other Astartes in the fleet. That would make him, at most, two hundred years old--assuming he was recruited in the very first year of the Great Crusade. How is it that he's the only relic, the only one that looks old?

Ben Counter unfortunately just didn't catch the details Abnett and McNeill had established for Iacton Qruze. Sad but true.

Sunyavadin
22-10-2009, 08:24
I hope Abnett or someone retcons it later, maybe suggest Qruze travelled to Earth during the Unification Wars, and it was at his suggestion that the Emperor went to Cthonia early in the crusade.

pookie
22-10-2009, 09:24
Hey guys what about Helbrecht. He was a minor character in Flight of the Einstein. But he was mentioned as a captain in the book. There is no doubt or debate if the High Marshal is alive. He must be one grizzled Templar by now.

High Marshall Helbrect who currently leads the BT's is NOT that Helbrecht.

Lord Lorne Walkier
22-10-2009, 19:41
Lord Lorne,

Horus Rising:
"'Hear, hear!' cried the ancient Iacton Qruze, ..."

"Iacton Qruze was an anachronism. Ancient and rather tiresome, he had been a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was the product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, ..."

"He had a long, tanned face, deeply lined with creases and folds, and his hair was white ..."

"Qruze was an irksome relic, ..."

Touche' Guess he is a Wrinkled Warrior.


False Gods:
'I know what I am, boy, a relic of a time long passed for our beloved Legion. You know that I remember when we fought without the Warmaster, can you imagine such a thing?'

Galaxy in Flames:
"Qruze was an example of just how little even the Legion's apothecaries knew of an Astartes' physiology. His face was as battered and gnarled as ancient oak, but his body was as wolf-tough, honed by years of fighting and not yet made weary by age."

"'I want you to remember Cthonia,’ said Euphrati, ..."
"What do you know of the planet of my birth?"
"'Only what I see inside you, Iacton,’ said Euphrati, ..."

"'I remember how it used to be,' he said. 'We were brothers on Cthonia. Not just among ourselves, but with our enemies, too. That was what the Emperor saw in us when he came to the hives."

So this really doesn't make sense.

Qruze is born of Cthonia, but also a product of the Unification Wars? How could he have achieved prominence with his Legion, or remembered fighting without Horus if he wasn't recruited until the Emperor showed up in Cthonia?

If he didn't join the Legion until the Emperor showed up, then he's no older than any other Astartes in the fleet. That would make him, at most, two hundred years old--assuming he was recruited in the very first year of the Great Crusade. How is it that he's the only relic, the only one that looks old?

Ben Counter unfortunately just didn't catch the details Abnett and McNeill had established for Iacton Qruze. Sad but true.

I agree from what little we know of the reunification wars it makes no sense how he could be a native Cthonian. To be a captain since the legion was created, an to have fought with the Emperor before Horus, but come from the same planet. It almost seems like if he was a captian from the start that he could have been a proto Marine, wearing Thunder Armour. The process he went through to become a Astartes clearly different from the post Horus Luna Wolves.

I guess the writers and editors are human and have to be allowed a bit of room for mistakes. It just suck trying to find a way through the fog of half information, with the added hazards of out right mistakes.

Havarel
22-10-2009, 21:40
Touche' Guess he is a Wrinkled Warrior.


I agree from what little we know of the reunification wars it makes no sense how he could be a native Cthonian. To be a captain since the legion was created, an to have fought with the Emperor before Horus, but come from the same planet. It almost seems like if he was a captian from the start that he could have been a proto Marine, wearing Thunder Armour. The process he went through to become a Astartes clearly different from the post Horus Luna Wolves.

I guess the writers and editors are human and have to be allowed a bit of room for mistakes. It just suck trying to find a way through the fog of half information, with the added hazards of out right mistakes.

Its actually not that implausible for Iachton to be a native of Cthonia.

The Black Legion Index Astartes article mentions that because of it's proximity to Terra, Cthonia was used as an 'easy' source for recruits for the First Founding. It is possible that Iachton was 'recruited' this way. There is no mention of when or at what stage Cthonia became a source of recruits for the Legions. Its plausible that the Emperor raided Cthonia for recruits before he found Horus.
Also, there is the rediscovery of Horus to consider. Unlike most of the other Primarchs, little is known of how, when or at what stage of his life Horus became reunited with the Emperor. With most of the Primarchs, we know that they were raised on their homeworlds, and found by the Emperor once they had reached maturity. Yet with Horus, we know little, and it's even hinted in the HH books (Horus Rising I think) that Horus wasn't raised on Cthonia (I'm thinking of the reference to his Cthonic accent).
So the Emperor could have found Horus as a child, and raised him on Terra. Meanwhile, with the rediscovery of Cthonia he could use the human population there to grow the Luna WOlves, including Iachton, with Horus taking command once he had grown and matured enough.

There we go, my random bit of speculation for the evening. :)

Ghost Warrior
22-10-2009, 21:44
Ahh, the joys and badness of a serise written by multiple authors, but it's quite awesome in my opinion and some of the books are great

muahaha!!!
22-10-2009, 22:01
One has to wonder whether the Wolves have ever asked Bjorn questions about the distant Great Crusade era about what their Primarch looked like, liked to do, whether some of those tales have been embellished from what really happened etc... or how did the Emperor look, sound, act?

I would think that it would be like in fallout 3 with the tree guy were no matter what Bjorn says they draw there own random conclusions from it lol.:D

Whitehorn
22-10-2009, 22:03
yeah they are loyalists aint they :rolleyes:


So you're an Imperial dog? *marks list*

You never know. Maybe Iacton was born before Horus.

Ghost Warrior
22-10-2009, 22:10
I'd prefer to think bjorn walks around with a knarled on tree trunk to support his malfunctioning leg, muttering about young pups these days or shouting how ole Leman would have done things and giving endless lectures to the wolf priests. Then when he's bored he goes to the nearest chaos infested world and beats the warlord into a pulp to show grimnar who is the real great wolf.

junglesnake
22-10-2009, 22:24
I am no great 40k historian but what about Luther?

He was second only to Lion El Johnson in command of the Dark Angels and he is still alive even after these years of torture. Strangely though, Luther is not exactly a Marine as it suggests that he was too old but instead had "transformative surgery". So is a human at his core.

The other argument here is that he may or may not be loyal. Which throws up another question - Cypher. Cypher harks back to the days of the Heresy and as a result is also pre-heresy. No one knows of what rank he held or whether he is loyal or not. In terms of game fluff if I remember correctly his original release through WD allowed him to be a character for a number of factions both loyal and not - including Dark Angels.

Since then there has been much rumour about who he is and whether Cypher is one person or a title that many use. However considering his wargear is pretty identifiable and consistant for each rumoured sighting I would imagine it is more likely to be one person which leans towards rumours that it is Luther or even Johnson himself.

Ghost Warrior
22-10-2009, 22:32
Ah, someone finlly brought ip the enigmatic Lord Cypher, techinically it's a title passed down but it may be still heresy Cypher
As for Luther, we're getting in dangerous territory, techincally he shouldn't be alive as an augumented human but apparently he is, so yeah possibly the oldest intact marine

junglesnake
22-10-2009, 22:38
Ah, someone finlly brought ip the enigmatic Lord Cypher, techinically it's a title passed down but it may be still heresy Cypher
As for Luther, we're getting in dangerous territory, techincally he shouldn't be alive as an augumented human but apparently he is, so yeah possibly the oldest intact marine

I wouldn't say technically as it's not been proven one way or the other so the argument is there to be made.

But as far as Luther goes I would agree although again, it doesn't identify what augmentations (is that a word?) were made. Judging that it suggests he was too old for standard marine procedures, I would suggest that he got a lot of the organ augmentations of a standard marine but perhaps not the muscular ones due to his body being past its peak. So it could be argued the augmentations he has had have lengthened his life to be more in line with that of a marine or perhaps more so considering his position as Johnson's wing man and probably one of the most trusted men outside of actually being a primarch at that time.

Then there is also the added bit that the inner circle will probably do whatever it takes to keep him alive as he holds vital information about what happened on Calliban before Johnson's return.

Malitov
23-10-2009, 06:04
I looked through the rules and didn't see anyhting about posting spoilers for novels or anything. This does contain a spoiler(sorta) for the new Salamanders
novel by Nick Kyme.

In the new Salamanders book they find a living marine that has been sitting in a crashed ship since the heresy.

Phoebus
23-10-2009, 06:09
Luther is still alive because he's being kept in stasis within the Rock. He's pulled out only once in a blue moon for a round of torture to get him to concede his guilt. His only response? That the Lion has already forgiven him.

junglesnake
23-10-2009, 08:05
I looked through the rules and didn't see anyhting about posting spoilers for novels or anything. This does contain a spoiler(sorta) for the new Salamanders
novel by Nick Kyme.

In the new Salamanders book they find a living marine that has been sitting in a crashed ship since the heresy.

Actually thats not unusual either. I seem to remember some fluff somewhere saying that part of the Marines 'upgrade' includes mechanisms that essentially slows down the rate of aging, a sort of hibernation. This is meant to kick in if they find themselves alone or badly wounded but not to the point of death. Not sure exactly how long they can last like that.

So Cypher is the only marine in a marine form, other than the other fallen, that could be considered to be pre heresy and still alive.

You could easily make a loyalist fallen list making them all pre-heresy and battered up etc. And codex DA alludes that there are some in the inner circle who lived through the heresy.

HiveFleetEzekial
23-10-2009, 10:13
Luther is still alive because he's being kept in stasis within the Rock. He's pulled out only once in a blue moon for a round of torture to get him to concede his guilt. His only response? That the Lion has already forgiven him.

First part is right. But he does not keep saying he's been forgiven. Please people, either stop spouting this line or cite some actual evidence to it! The only things he's sofar been quoted, in canon fluff, as rambling on about that even comes close to that is that Jonson(no 'h', to those that keep inserting it) *will* come back and forgive him, sometime. Not that he *has* been forgiven.

Ghost Warrior
23-10-2009, 19:20
He's right, you know. Yet I think we're overlooking someone, and I can't put my finger on it.

junglesnake
23-10-2009, 21:26
Who's right? And remember we are talking Loyalist here.

Ghost Warrior
23-10-2009, 21:32
In that case, Bjorn is the confirmed oldest loyalist
Cypher could be or not

Phoebus
24-10-2009, 15:20
Ezekial,

Thanks for the correction. :)

pookie
24-10-2009, 17:06
do we count the fallen? the DA hold one that was captured M38 and is currently held in stasis.

Mr_Rose
24-10-2009, 17:22
do we count the fallen? the DA hold one that was captured M38 and is currently held in stasis.
The Fallen only count as Loyalist of the Dark Angels are Traitors...:wtf:


...so yes they do count! *runs*

pookie
26-10-2009, 11:57
The Fallen only count as Loyalist of the Dark Angels are Traitors...:wtf:


...so yes they do count! *runs*

works for me :evilgrin: