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View Full Version : The size & number of Legiones Astartes in Rogue Trader



Glabro
12-09-2009, 15:27
When reading up on some old Space Hulk 1st ed articles, I came across the following quote : "The first Imperial forces to reach the planet were twenty Legiones Astartes of the Ultramarines...."

TWENTY legions of the Ultramarines? Sounds like the numbers of marines were a lot more sensible for galactic scale warfare than these days, but can anyone shed more light on this?

How were the Space Marines organized in Rogue Trader? In current fluff, "Legion" stands for one entire founding "Legion" of varying size, but probably of at least ten thousand marines, which were later split off into the current chapters.

However, having the Ultramarines, for example, consist of many legions in 1st ed would put a spin on that.

AndrewGPaul
12-09-2009, 15:30
That's meaning 20 Marines, not 20 Legions. :)

Urath
12-09-2009, 15:36
It depends on the Legion.

The Emperor's Children had two hundred marines when Fulgrim was re-discovered, after a mysterious accident.

I'd guess that, at the end of the Crusade, they had around ten-thousand.

The Dark Angels, however, had well over twenty-thousand. Call of the Lion, in a conversation between Belath and Astelan, the former says there are twenty-thousand more recruits on the way. The Ultramarines were another big one of around thirtty thousand.

While the Iron Warriors had twelve Grand Companies of around one-thousand Astartes each, giving them a total of twelve thousand.

So basically, it all depends.

nedsta
12-09-2009, 15:53
Legiones Astartes was the official title of space marines back in ye olde days of Rogue Trader, Like AndrewGPaul says it just means 20 ultramarines, marines were still organised into chapters of 1000 back in rogue trader (page 153 RT rulebook) as the background for the Horus Heresy hadn't been written then, IIRC that appeared when the Realms of chaos books came out.

Glabro
12-09-2009, 16:09
Oh. Well, that makes sense, I guess. Legione probably translating to legionaire from latin or pseudo-latin at least.

What would be the plural for "Legions" then?

Lord Malice
12-09-2009, 16:11
Also the term 'Adeptus Astartes' was reserved for those chapters who had homeworlds which they held as Imperial Commanders. This made their Chapter Master an Adept/Adeptus of Earth and granted them the title of Adeptus Astartes. The term for all of the Space Marines was the Legionnes Astartes. Also the term Legion and Chapter were often interchangable in those days.

Urath
12-09-2009, 16:32
Legions is plural for Legion. Plural for Astartes within the Legion would be Legionnaries.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
12-09-2009, 16:56
It depends on the Legion.

The Emperor's Children had two hundred marines when Fulgrim was re-discovered, after a mysterious accident.

I'd guess that, at the end of the Crusade, they had around ten-thousand.

The Dark Angels, however, had well over twenty-thousand. Call of the Lion, in a conversation between Belath and Astelan, the former says there are twenty-thousand more recruits on the way. The Ultramarines were another big one of around thirtty thousand.

While the Iron Warriors had twelve Grand Companies of around one-thousand Astartes each, giving them a total of twelve thousand.

So basically, it all depends.

According the HH art book, the Ultramarines were by far the largest Legion at 400,000 marines. This is also why they had so many second founding chapters and why the majority of new chapters use their gene-seed.

Most of the other Legions were at one point or another between 50,000 - 150,000 in size, but through campaigns, accidents in the warp, and eventually the Heresy itself were whittled down to much smaller sizes.

Urath
12-09-2009, 17:28
What the hell :|

Glabro
12-09-2009, 17:38
Legions is plural for Legion. Plural for Astartes within the Legion would be Legionnaries.

In High Gothic, I mean.

Lisiecki
12-09-2009, 19:38
You have to remember, RT was a whole diffrent ballgame.
After all, In RT the Big E was still alive

trolly
12-09-2009, 22:31
hi,

IW just 12 GC???
that not enough for siegeworks.
50K+ i think.

cheers,
:D

Urath
12-09-2009, 22:36
Twelve Thousand Astartes is more than enough for anything.


According the HH art book, the Ultramarines were by far the largest Legion at 400,000 marines. This is also why they had so many second founding chapters and why the majority of new chapters use their gene-seed.

Most of the other Legions were at one point or another between 50,000 - 150,000 in size, but through campaigns, accidents in the warp, and eventually the Heresy itself were whittled down to much smaller sizes.

Does it say anything about the Emperor's Children or Dark Angels?

Lord_Crull
13-09-2009, 02:59
I would point out that if one takes a realistic view of space into 40k and a realistic veiw of how big planets are, then the 12,000 astartes estimate is incredibly insufficent and small to conquer the galaxy,

Remeber, space is very, very, very big.

Lisiecki
13-09-2009, 04:44
Blarg

Acaully what I said wouldnt have made much sence.
In the RT Era the big E was still alive in the year 40,000

The art books and the novels wouldn't give a basis, only RT and the various White Dwarf articals of the time

AndrewGPaul
13-09-2009, 09:37
I would point out that if one takes a realistic view of space into 40k and a realistic veiw of how big planets are, then the 12,000 astartes estimate is incredibly insufficent and small to conquer the galaxy,

Remeber, space is very, very, very big.

Most of the campaigns featured in the setting end up fighting over a single key installation. For beseiging a rebel (or non-Compliant) HQ fortress, 12,000 Iron Warriors is probably more than sufficient. :)

Leftenant Gashrog
13-09-2009, 13:28
I'm not sure I'd say "the big E was still alive", the description of the Golden Throne in the RT rulebook said "Held within this perversion of science lies the Emperor himself, or rather what remains of his carcass, the seat of his omnipotent will." - its just that he spoke a bit more often. (Goge Vandires Reign of Blood ended with his decapitation by the head of his own bodyguard after she'd had a personal audience with the Emperor - one presumes he said something, if not to her, then to the Custode who fetched her)

As previously said the RT fluff for post-heresy chapters was the same as now, RT era fluff for pre/mid-heresy (once it had been invented) chapters was first "tens of thousands of marines" later changed to chapters having up to 20 regiments each with 500-1500 men (the example regiment was the 3rd Regiment of the Valedictors Chapter, which in one of my more retarded moments I worked out to be about 700 marines)

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
13-09-2009, 13:38
Twelve Thousand Astartes is more than enough for anything.



Does it say anything about the Emperor's Children or Dark Angels?


I don't recall any numbers for the Dark Angels, but the Emperor's Children were mentioned because they had extremely low numbers when Fulgrim joined them. It was somewhere between 1,000 to 3,000 marines.

That is why they fought alongside the Luna Wolves for a time until they brought their numbers up.

Lord_Crull
13-09-2009, 14:02
Most of the campaigns featured in the setting end up fighting over a single key installation. For beseiging a rebel (or non-Compliant) HQ fortress, 12,000 Iron Warriors is probably more than sufficient. :)

You mean this?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Planetville

Glabro
13-09-2009, 15:36
That's kind of a given...Nobody has really given us examples of how Space Marines are supposed to defeat forces 500-10000 times their number realistically....usually it's just "kill the leader" or "take the castle and the rest surrender"

Lisiecki
13-09-2009, 17:25
I'm not sure I'd say "the big E was still alive", the description of the Golden Throne in the RT rulebook said "Held within this perversion of science lies the Emperor himself, or rather what remains of his carcass, the seat of his omnipotent will." - its just that he spoke a bit more often. (Goge Vandires Reign of Blood ended with his decapitation by the head of his own bodyguard after she'd had a personal audience with the Emperor - one presumes he said something, if not to her, then to the Custode who fetched her)ne of my more retarded moments I worked out to be about 700 marines)
Oh I had assumed he was still alive, to explain how th Emperor, not the Empire is issuing orders.

Rogue Trader is a different continuity, but a good one.
No Heretic Legions, Russ is a planetary governor, the Eye of Terror is a place that seems to harbor run of the mill criminals.

Trying to compare it directly to 40 in general isn't going to work, and specifically the HH art books

endless
13-09-2009, 17:38
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Urath
13-09-2009, 19:58
I would point out that if one takes a realistic view of space into 40k and a realistic veiw of how big planets are, then the 12,000 astartes estimate is incredibly insufficent and small to conquer the galaxy,

Remeber, space is very, very, very big.

Aye but, as I understood it, most of the other legions were larger anyway. Twelve-thousand Iron Warriors attached to a single crusade fleet, with a squad or less garrisoning forts or attached to other expeditions to oversee sieges, seems more than enough considering they're largely going to fight one large battle per planet as a part of a siege.

They also had attached Imperial Army.

But anyway, such large numbers does seem a lot more interesting.

AndrewGPaul
14-09-2009, 08:21
Rogue Trader is a different continuity, but a good one.
No Heretic Legions, Russ is a planetary governor,

Nope, still a Space Wolves Imperial Commander.

Leftenant Gashrog
14-09-2009, 14:43
Nope, still a Space Wolves Imperial Commander.

At least he was technically right (since in addition to commanding the chapter he also ruled their homeworld of Lucan) - it makes a nice change from people saying he was Imperial Guard!



No Heretic Legions
The 'Treacher Legions' who turned against the Emperor in the First Inter-Legionary War and were subsequently banished to the Eye of Terror were first mentioned in the first Index Astartes article.
Mind you that article was the Ultramarines, who at the time were 3rd Founding Chapter created to replace one of the aforementioned Treacher Legions..

Lisiecki
14-09-2009, 18:49
Nope, still a Space Wolves Imperial Commander.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Page 27 of my copy has a mistake in the printing?

AndrewGPaul
14-09-2009, 22:56
I've posted this before (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3854746&postcount=46), but

66813


Marine Commander
Imperial Record AA/SW 05/015, f19.P& Profile: Leman Russ. Born 2612016. M32, Guranta D Gurantan system.
Commissioned Adeptus Terra as special agent in 0134041. M32. First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade1. Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan 0333042. M32. Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unti [sic] 4 'Spacewolves' [sic]. Suffered severe alviola [sic] damage during acid storms on Susa. Transplanted with model cybron-osmotic gill.


1Page 160 states that Lucan is the Space Wolves' homeworld, all to set up a dodgy 'Lord Lucan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_lucan)' pun.

An Imperial Commander, yes, but never a planetary governor.

AndrewGPaul
14-09-2009, 22:57
The 'Treacher Legions' who turned against the Emperor in the First Inter-Legionary War and were subsequently banished to the Eye of Terror were first mentioned in the first Index Astartes article.
Mind you that article was the Ultramarines, who at the time were 3rd Founding Chapter created to replace one of the aforementioned Treacher Legions..

Ahh, yes ... Back when you could make Space Marines out of Navigators (Space Wolves) and half Eldar (Ultramarines Chief Librarian). Oh, and when Marneus Calgar was a quadriplegic. :)

Urath
15-09-2009, 00:03
Rogal Dorn was referred to as "Imperial Commander..." in the Epic: Space Marine rulebook.

Lord Malice
15-09-2009, 00:46
Imperial Commander is a position granted to planetary rulers as part of their nominal membership of the Adeptus Terra. In this way a planetary governor is an Imperial Commander.

Rogue Trader page 133 has details of Planetary Adminstration.

pookie
15-09-2009, 14:32
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

sweeping statement, any chance you could give us a bit more about what exactly has been misinformed?

x-esiv-4c
15-09-2009, 14:35
Curious, he was born after the beginning of the heresy...right?

AndrewGPaul
15-09-2009, 14:38
Imperial Commander is a position granted to planetary rulers as part of their nominal membership of the Adeptus Terra. In this way a planetary governor is an Imperial Commander.

Rogue Trader page 133 has details of Planetary Adminstration.

IIRC, a planetary Governor was necessarily an Imperial Commander, but the reverse was not true - not all Imperial Commanders were planetary Governors

AndrewGPaul
15-09-2009, 14:42
Curious, he was born after the beginning of the heresy...right?

Who, Leman Russ, in the Rogue Trader quote? Sort of. Yes, his birth date (2612016. M32) is after the dates usually given for the Heresy now. However, in the Rogue Trader rulebook, the "Horus Heresy" was a one-line throwaway mention of a revolt against the Imperium (or possibly Empire - both terms got used interchangeably). It took until the Realms of Chaos books and Adeptus Titanicus before the Heresy backstory weas developed into what we know today, and by that point, Leman Russ's story had also been retconned.

There's also mention of "Primarchs" somewhere in Rogue Trader, but only as legendary heroes in a Chapter's history, not the source of all the Chapter's heritage.

x-esiv-4c
15-09-2009, 14:47
So he was technically born after the horus heresy then. Interesting. Like that GW chap said (name escapes me) all fluff is valid just from different angles and perspectives etc etc.

AndrewGPaul
15-09-2009, 15:04
No. This "version" of Leman Russ was described in a setting where the date of the Heresy wasn't mentioned. By the time they retconned the Heresy into the huge civil war we all know, they'd also retconned Leman Russ' birth. :)

Lisiecki
17-09-2009, 05:45
So he was technically born after the horus heresy then. Interesting. Like that GW chap said (name escapes me) all fluff is valid just from different angles and perspectives etc etc.

Nope.

That description or Leman Russ comes from a contunity that predates the backstory of the HH.

Just like the Batman in Batman Begins, isnt the same Batman as in Batman forever.

The setting for the game that we know as 40k comes from 2nd ed on.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-09-2009, 11:21
The setting for the game that we know as 40k comes from 2nd ed on.

At least if your a 40k player ;) quite a lot of so-called 2nd ed fluff actually came from RT era EPIC.

AndrewGPaul
17-09-2009, 13:30
The broad strokes of current 40K history was put in place in Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, the Realm of Chaos books and the Warhammer40,000 Compendium and Compilation books. 2nd edition didn't really change too much - it just added more stuff.

x-esiv-4c
17-09-2009, 16:53
"Originally Posted by Marc Gascoigne on BL forums
I'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."


So Lisiecki, you're wrong.