PDA

View Full Version : tomb kings GT 2009



kyinpie
12-09-2009, 22:01
im going to GT again this year using my main army, the tomb kings. last year i took my secondary army, vampire counts, and didnt enjoy using them as much i thought i would. i have since stoped using the vampire army, they are currently collecting dust in the garage :( i just dont like the new rules.

any way, im taking my trusty tomb kings this year. this is my list, i just want to here what people have to say and hopefully some constructive advice.

liche high priest
*cloak of the dunes
*hieratic jar
*dispell scroll
*dispell scroll
340

liche priest
steed
*staff of ravening
168

liche priest
steed
*staff of sorcery
173

tomb prince
chariot
light armour
flail
*chariot of fire
*enchanted shield ( i know that i cant use this in combat with the flail, its to have an armour save against shooting)
189

archers x10
80

archers x10
80

light horsmen x5
70

light horsemen x5
70

tomb swarms x4
180

chariots x3
120

chariots x3 (prince here)
banner
*mirage standard
180

tomb scorpion
85

tomb scorpion
85

screaming skull catapult
90

screaming skull catapult
90

total 2000

i must say now, that ushabti and heavy horsemen are not an option for me as i think they are crap and they never work for me! :S also i dont have the models :) any thing else can be concidered and i will have the models for it.

thanks
ky

OldMan
12-09-2009, 22:14
i must say now, that ushabti and heavy horsemen are not an option for me as i think they are crap and they never work for me!
ky

Many people say the same for light horsemen :)

The list seems quite decent for TK. My only concern is that you have just two dispell scroll - not many for 2000 pts. Unfortunetally i don't really see how to squeeze more. Mayby for staff of ravening? It admittedly has it's uses ( dispell draining) but isn't very cost effective itself.
I also wonder if it wouldn't be better to change swarm for another scorpion or carrion.

kyinpie
12-09-2009, 22:23
i did want the carrian, but as im using the liche high priest the chariots are special! :(

haha, your right about the light horsmen though, i used to think the same, but i found a use for them, they run along with the chariots and help to divert charges, draw out fanatics or frenzyed troops and the such. and if all else fail they get to shoot a bit on the way! i use the unit as a sacrificial unit, every game i expect them to die at some point, although i like to dictate when! :P

as for the dispell scrolls, i agree i do want at least one more. i like the staff of ravening it seems to get its points back the majority of the time. maybe if i drop the enchanted shield on the prince and give him the broach of the desert and a mundane sheild? i will have to find 13pts to do that though.

ky

OldMan
12-09-2009, 22:35
Maybe drop one chariot in Princes unit? You would be still a 3 chariot unit and would give you points for the brooch. I must add i don't find prince's setup as it is now anyway the most effective one, but i will not try to suggest better. I would need TK book on me for that. Besides, i know this army is rather short on good items.
So give the brooch a go.

leighr3029
12-09-2009, 22:44
I like your list. good work.

few suggestions though.

1 - iŽd drop the enchanted shield. you arenŽt very likely to have to use it as you are in a unit. the brooch would be good but it is an enchanted item so as you have the chariot of fire you canŽt take it (unless if there is something i am missing).

2 - iŽd turn the staff of sorcery into 2 dispel scrolls. 2 scrolls will remove between 6 and 8 power dice in a game realistically and it will be crucial spells. I think +1 to dispel just doesnŽt compare to that. with 6 dispel dice that is realistically +2 per turn (3 dice per dispel attempt) or +12 per game which is the equivalent of 3/4 dispel dice per game.

3 - I was going to advise against the light horse but I think you have a use for them there. your chariots are going to be targeted so bad

4 - I am assuming you are using your swarms for catapult protection? IŽd personally drop them to 1 for a tunneller as 180pts to protect 180pts seems like a waste to me.

5 - not sure about the mirage standard. IŽd go for undying legion as it adds to your casting phase, is cheaper and does a comparable thing (saves your chariots). but I suppose that may be your preference. I havenŽt used mirage myself. that or give the prince the spear of antarak. I find that ensures the chariots stick around and are rarely below full strength at the end of the game. if you keep your chariots together the prince could bounce between the units to keep their sizes up.

Like the list overall though. good work and good luck at the GT

OldMan
12-09-2009, 22:52
I like your list. good work.


2 - iŽd turn the staff of sorcery into 2 dispel scrolls. 2 scrolls will remove between 6 and 8 power dice in a game realistically and it will be crucial spells. I think +1 to dispel just doesnŽt compare to that. with 6 dispel dice that is realistically +2 per turn (3 dice per dispel attempt) or +12 per game which is the equivalent of 3/4 dispel dice per game.



I thought staff of sorcery is dedicated anti Vampire item. It is sad to be slightly better against one dice spell spam than dispell scrolls.

Time of Madness
12-09-2009, 22:58
This is a tourny army? I think it's a pretty weak effort at the moment. Here's the changes I would make.

1) minimize your core. Take 2 units of 10 archers and 5 light horsemen. I can't believe you have 180 pts wasted on swarms.

2) Drop a steed off one of your priests. You want the foot priest in a archer unit near the catapults.

3) Speaking of the catapults upgrade them to skull of foes.

4) 2 units of chariots is not going to be that great. I'd take one unit of 4 with a standard for the tomb prince and use the other special slot for some carrion.

5) Tomb prince - drop the shield. I'd drop the chariot of fire as well, there are a lot better combos available for this guy.

6) Drop the staff of sorcery for 2 dispel scrolls. Take the 2 scrolls off your high priest and give him the 4+ ward save item.

Time of Madness

kyinpie
12-09-2009, 23:00
oldman i cant drop the chariot unit to two rank and file as the minimum is 3! :(

thanks leighr!

i forgot the broach was enchanted! my mistake. i think i will leave the prince with chariot of fire and a mundane shield. inless i can find some thing better.

i think i would be better of with the extra two scrolls over the staff of sorcery i will alter this for my next game.

yeah i have found a use for the light horsemen, it only took 4 years! lol they make a good screen too.

no swarms will be used to tunnel and 'bog' a unit down, like a tar pit unit. or an assisted charge with the chariots or scorpion. generally anyway. i find 3 swarms cant realy hold up a unit for too long, and 5 are just too many.

the mirage standard is a graet item. its surprising how much of a difference this item can make. the 5+ward against cannons etc, is ok, but i still wouldnt plan to sit infront of any warmachine. the idea with this unit is to push it forward, with the prince in it, and temp the oponent to target alot of the shooting at the unit. with the banner it seems to minamis the damage and the high priest is close by to cast summoning.if all is well the chariots are in combat with something by turn 2. a pity i couldnt give the other chariot the undying leigion banner, like you said that extra bound item would be great for the magic phase.

i will take your advice on baord and see what adjustments i can do to the list

thank you :)

kyinpie
12-09-2009, 23:03
5) Tomb prince - drop the shield. I'd drop the chariot of fire as well, there are a lot better combos available for this guy.


what combos would you suggest for the prince?



2) Drop a steed off one of your priests. You want the foot priest in a archer unit near the catapults.
you know that a mounted charecter can join an infantry unit? i plan to put both the preists in the archer units or actually join the catapult crew i only have the steeds as it grants you a better movement, just to get away from danger or get closer to cast an incantation!

thanks
ky

hlaine larkin
12-09-2009, 23:42
ignore magic defence comments haha :P at the GT you will gt either magic heavy- and only a magic heavy list can stop there magic or single scroll caddy lvl 1 wizards- 2 scrolls is probs normal :D

i like the list, but maybe you need some ushabti :D *cough look at my siggy trade cough*

nah, but i like the list you might want a casket of souls however, so drop something and maybe consider taking banner of the undying legion on chariot unit- an extra incantation of summoning :D

Gokamok
13-09-2009, 01:49
I seriously think that you'll need some units that are actually able to dish out a bit of hurt in combat. As your list looks now, I'd guess that any basic VC, DE or DoC list would walk right over you; get some Tonb Guards or Ushabti in there in order to actually provide a close combat threat, since the chariots just won't cut it in todays metagame.

I'd suggest dropping the swarms, a unit of chariots and a unit of light horsemen in order to finance some more oomph.

kyinpie
13-09-2009, 12:13
thanks for all the advice guys, i will tweak the list and post the re-vised version on here later today.

thanks ky

lcfr
14-09-2009, 02:38
Not sure what passes for a competitive tournament TK army since I don't venture out to tourneys myself but I'll try my best to give some c&c where I think your army needs it. I'm a relative newcomer to TK so you might want to take what I have to say w/a grain of salt.

liche high priest
*cloak of the dunes
*hieratic jar
*dispell scroll
*dispell scroll
340

Two scrolls, +1 to dispel from the staff of sorcery, and 6DD ought to be enough to get you by; I don't think you need to sink any more points into scrolls. Your LHP is going to be vulnerable but hopefully w/the cloak he'll keep out of trouble. As long as you know when to fly and when to stick w/a unit you should be ok.

tomb prince
chariot
light armour
flail
*chariot of fire
*enchanted shield ( i know that i cant use this in combat with the flail, its to have an armour save against shooting)
189

There's nothing really wrong w/this guy imo; having the extra impact hits and a flail on the charge, along w/his entourage of chariots, means he ought to pretty much kill anything he runs into. I'm sure there are other good combos for a chariot-mounted tomb prince but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong w/this one (I run 3 liches and a king in my 2k list, so I've never worried myself w/how to deck out a TP).

tomb swarms x4
180

I don't think so many swarms are necessary. You already have the two scorpions, it seems redundant to be sinking 180pts into a unit of 4 swarms. I would keep just 1 swarm, at best, and only to keep my opponent guessing if I deploy both scorps w/ICFB. Anymore seem like a waste; 135-180pts can get you more chariots. Your list doesn't have much that can actually kill the enemy so you might, like Gokamoksaid, want to invest in more oomph.

Overall I think the army is really, really small (even for a TK army)...having the LHP is cool n all but, if you think about, there is not much aggressive incanting your priests can do without totally exposing themselves. That is, your combat units are all fast moving and your sacrificial light horsemen will not make great bodyguards for your liches. Unless your plan is to run your list like a gunline, putting the artillery and missile troops in the centre and using your fast cavalry to work the flanks, I'm not sure how effective your force will be. There just aren't enough hitty troops to play the list aggressively imo.

hlaine larkin
14-09-2009, 07:27
6 dd is loads for a gt list :p as i was saying people will have either 3 or uncountable amounts :D thats the general rule! i agree with dropping swarm option for a unit of chariots too, maybe stick a liche in so that they get the charge they need and should stop any attacks coming back at him!

generally though- the GT list of doom (so empire has karl franz + 2 steam tanks) is casket of souls + 2 screaming skulls OR khalida and an army full of archers (would be nice if we could take settra seeing as he has the best armour in the game and hits a hard punch- but alas no!)

Atrahasis
14-09-2009, 09:47
generally though- the GT list of doom is casket of souls + 2 screaming skullsYeah, that should be good - if I could take three rare choices I'd be able to build a "GT list of doom" too.

leighr3029
14-09-2009, 12:23
IŽll agree with everyone about the swarms. drop to 1. 180pts for a tarpit is a poor way to spend points. you would be better off getting 20 odd skellies to do the same thing. you also donŽt want to tunnel 180pts as it can go wrong plus you may not pop out when you want to. swarms are also again too soft to stand in combat hence why the skellies would do better again.

with the 135pts you could boost your shooting or maybe skimp a bit somewhere else for a unit of tomb guard.

valdrog
14-09-2009, 17:37
Swarms should be use to hunt down enemy mages, all those poison attacks are great against them.

On my prince i like to give him the Flail of Skull to deal with those annoying Stegs and Steam Tanks..or anything else multi-wound out there.

Get rid of the Liche High Priest and bring a King instead, with a King you can give him the Flail of Skulls, chariot of Fire, place him in a unit of 3 chariots with the Banner that gives you +1 to hit, and that unir will break things in half.

Keep the prince on his chariot and join him to the other chariot unit, chariots should never be more than 4 wide, 5 become to big to manuever.

Atrahasis
14-09-2009, 18:17
If you're having trouble manoeuvring fast cavalry, you're doing something wrong.

valdrog
14-09-2009, 18:28
If you're having trouble manoeuvring fast cavalry, you're doing something wrong.

Try moving 5 chariots and get back to me, also 5 chariot front will rarely get one of the chariots to actually do something, plus the unit gets to expensive at that point.

Enigmatik1
14-09-2009, 18:34
Try moving 5 chariots and get back to me, also 5 chariot front will rarely get one of the chariots to actually do something, plus the unit gets to expensive at that point.

I don't think there's really a point to running a 5 chariot front. 3 chariots seems to be the max you can get into BtB contact with "traditional" units (5x4). So I question the logic behind running 5-wide. Now if you just have the points for 5 chariots, run 3 in the front and two behind as cushion?

Maoriboy007
14-09-2009, 21:41
Try moving 5 chariots and get back to me, also 5 chariot front will rarely get one of the chariots to actually do something, plus the unit gets to expensive at that point.


I don't think there's really a point to running a 5 chariot front. 3 chariots seems to be the max you can get into BtB contact with "traditional" units (5x4). So I question the logic behind running 5-wide. Now if you just have the points for 5 chariots, run 3 in the front and two behind as cushion?

5 Chariots is how I roll. Considering how fragile TK chariots are , the cushion is a real boon. Between the enemy magic/shooting and combat its quite easy to lose one or two chariots (4 toughness and a 5+ armour save?!?!), but a larger unit means I can still have that vital outnumber to auto-break my opponants.
As far as moving, I use a King and a prince in the same unit, those commands make it brutal to stop them going where you want to.
3 Wide is fine, the impact hits of TK chariots are hardly profound anyway.
Never take a champion, and musicians are optional.

hlaine larkin
14-09-2009, 22:36
Yeah, that should be good - if I could take three rare choices I'd be able to build a "GT list of doom" too.


yeah good point 1 of each :P my bad :D its casket + catapult OR 2 catapults :P je suis desolé

hlaine larkin
14-09-2009, 22:38
I don't think there's really a point to running a 5 chariot front. 3 chariots seems to be the max you can get into BtB contact with "traditional" units (5x4). So I question the logic behind running 5-wide. Now if you just have the points for 5 chariots, run 3 in the front and two behind as cushion?


i would take the extra points for 3 units- i think if you have them followed or give them a banner of the undying legion they should be okay- 5 frontage makes chariots risky as i believe chariots going through terrain go kaboom=- 5 chariots is wide, all you need to do to defend is sit in a gap between trees or w/e

lcfr
14-09-2009, 22:39
5 Chariots is how I roll. Considering how fragile TK chariots are , the cushion is a real boon. Between the enemy magic/shooting and combat its quite easy to lose one or two chariots (4 toughness and a 5+ armour save?!?!), but a larger unit means I can still have that vital outnumber to auto-break my opponants.

3 Wide is fine, the impact hits of TK chariots are hardly profound anyway.
Never take a champion, and musicians are optional.

Agree 100% If I were magically allowed to take 2080pts vs my opponents' 2000, I'd spend those points on extra buffer chariots w/out a second thought. At the same time I'm pretty happy w/3 per unit (just 2 units)...I'm used to running units of Minotaurs this size (or slightly larger) who have a harder time surviving! While it sucks to have to waste incantations recovering a unit, the fact that we can means that chariots have a little more survivability than it looks at face value.

Don't see the problem w/units of chariots 5strong either; they don't need to be run 5wide and I suspect that even so bulky they'd be more than compensated by the fact they're Fast Cav.

Maoriboy007
15-09-2009, 01:21
Agree 100% If I were magically allowed to take 2080pts vs my opponents' 2000, I'd spend those points on extra buffer chariots w/out a second thought. At the same time I'm pretty happy w/3 per unit (just 2 units)...I'm used to running units of Minotaurs this size (or slightly larger) who have a harder time surviving! While it sucks to have to waste incantations recovering a unit, the fact that we can means that chariots have a little more survivability than it looks at face value.

Don't see the problem w/units of chariots 5strong either; they don't need to be run 5wide and I suspect that even so bulky they'd be more than compensated by the fact they're Fast Cav.

I prefer 1 unit of 5 than 2 units of 3. With 2 x 3, one of the units is going to be wiped out/made useless by magic/gunfire anyway. One unit of 5 means I save points on one chariot, I only pay for one command unit (std & musician) aand my characters benefit from look out sir!

Maoriboy007
15-09-2009, 01:22
Agree 100% If I were magically allowed to take 2080pts vs my opponents' 2000, I'd spend those points on extra buffer chariots w/out a second thought. At the same time I'm pretty happy w/3 per unit (just 2 units)...I'm used to running units of Minotaurs this size (or slightly larger) who have a harder time surviving! While it sucks to have to waste incantations recovering a unit, the fact that we can means that chariots have a little more survivability than it looks at face value.

Don't see the problem w/units of chariots 5strong either; they don't need to be run 5wide and I suspect that even so bulky they'd be more than compensated by the fact they're Fast Cav.

I prefer 1 unit of 5 than 2 units of 3. With 2 x 3, one of the units is going to be wiped out/made useless by magic/gunfire anyway. One unit of 5 means I save points on one chariot, I only pay for one command unit (std & musician) and my characters benefit from look out sir!

kyinpie
20-09-2009, 23:50
sorry i havnt been back on here for a bit, been trying the list and adding the above advice. :)

thank you all for the great advice. i have played many games with mainly the origanl list and found the list lacking in the fighting power! also i have found that the high priest usually has a wasted incantation, except one or two turns, so i have rewrighten the list with a king. i always used to use a king, so i have returned to my roots! :P

here is my newer list:-

tomb king
destroyer of eternities
collar of shapeesh
265

hirophant
cloak of the dunes
hiratic jar
160

priest
steed
staff of ravening
168

priest
steed
dispell scroll
dispell scroll
173

archers x10
archers x10
light horsemen x5
light horsemen x5
300

chariots x3
chariots x3
240

scorpion
scorpion
170

catapult
catapult

grave guard x20
champion
standard
undying legion
289

this is 1945pts realy dont know what to do with these points. in my recent games i been taking one swarm and adding one archer to one of the units above. i do find that this list has more of a 'backbone'. also the list seems bigger too. what do u guys think of the tweaked version?

SirSnipes
21-09-2009, 01:18
much better

Gokamok
21-09-2009, 01:26
I like the revised list better, but I still think you could use more Oomph; I've never been impressed by TK Chariots, since they usually can't harm anything stronger than fast cavalry when charging head on, and I'm not really convinced that you need 2 units of Chariots AND 2 units of Light Horsemen.

You have a quite decent shooting phase with 20 archers, 2 catapults and the potential to make the catapults fire in the magic phase as well, so I think you should get something into the list that can make your opponent more worried about getting too close.
Without being sure of the exact points values, I think you should ditch a unit of Chariots and a unit of Horsemen in order to get 3-4 Ushabti, and then maybe replace one of the Priests with a Prince in a Chariot in order to make the remaining Chariot unit hit hard enough to be more of a threat.

EDIT: I just noticed that you say Ushabti are not an option as they don't work well for you, so that bit might be irrelevant, still they're the one thing in the TK army that my VC are most worried about, due to the amount of damage they can put out. What is your problem with using them?

Kalec
21-09-2009, 01:47
Drop the archers, grab a third scorpion and some carrions.

kyinpie
21-09-2009, 09:50
thinking of droping one unit of light cav to get carrin in the list, and due to the scenarios this year i think a unit of 5 would be a much better investment. :)

gokamok, over the years i have tried ushabti many many times, but they rarely get to combat! they are usually shoot to pieces in a turn! even when they are hidding and biding they're time, or hidding behind skellitons. i find that my opponents will concentrate fire on them, and unfortunantly thats 360pts killed with no return. ushabti are just to expencive to be a sacrificial unit! :S i think its more down to my play style as well, im a very aggressive player with my tomb kings. plus the other major point with ushabti is, i havnt got the models and im currently skint so unable to buy any before tournement. lol

ky

Gokamok
21-09-2009, 14:32
thinking of droping one unit of light cav to get carrin in the list, and due to the scenarios this year i think a unit of 5 would be a much better investment. :)

gokamok, over the years i have tried ushabti many many times, but they rarely get to combat! they are usually shoot to pieces in a turn! even when they are hidding and biding they're time, or hidding behind skellitons. i find that my opponents will concentrate fire on them, and unfortunantly thats 360pts killed with no return. ushabti are just to expencive to be a sacrificial unit! :S i think its more down to my play style as well, im a very aggressive player with my tomb kings. plus the other major point with ushabti is, i havnt got the models and im currently skint so unable to buy any before tournement. lol

ky

Remember that Fliers don't count as scoring units, so the Carrion won't help out there;)
I usually play VC, so it's from that perspective (as in, having no ranged weapons whatsoever) that I've had loads of trouble dealing with Ushabti, but I guess they'll get shot up pretty badly by some armies.

What about the Chariot-mounted Prince? I think he could add a lot of punch to a unit of Chariots, especially if you add in a banner as well. That would give you a fast unit that could actually break enemies head on, rather than have you depending on combined charges and/or flank attacks. Also, Cairn Wraiths can rip HUGE holes in most TK armies, and getting another magic weapon into the list seems like a good option to me.