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quatrofromageo
13-09-2009, 11:47
I'm getting back into the hobby after being away for 15 years.

I'm torn between Salamanders, because they have a strong theme and seem pretty easy to build an army out of.

Or Space Wolves who have lots of character, conversion potential and new models, but I can't really picture a well structured army list for them.

I'm also notoriously unlucky when it comes to dice rolling, so the Salamanders would probably help me win more games, because all their melta guns and flamers are twin linked.

Tell me your thoughts/experiences/chatter :)

Emperors Teeth
13-09-2009, 12:55
I was going to write a big thing on why Salamanders... but I'm lazy. So I'll sum it up.

Space Wolves always feel overpowered to me, regardless of the truth.

Salamanders are the natural underdog, but have a rule I also love (I suck with dice) in the mastercrafting of Flamers using Vulkan.

Go Salamanders!

marv335
13-09-2009, 12:59
Stuff gameplay.
I saw the sprues for the new wolfguard yesterday
They are so very, very nice it's hard not to want to build an army.

shabbadoo
13-09-2009, 13:34
Yeah, wait a little bit longer and see all the new Space Wolves stuff. Read the rules, drool over the modeling potential of either Chapter, and then do the one that lights your imagination on fire(no pun intended). :D

Cpt_Baughan
13-09-2009, 14:02
My head says Salamanders but once you see all the new Space Wlove stuff and get swept up in the new release thats what you'll want to be doing

Petay1985
13-09-2009, 14:03
Yeah, wait a little bit longer and see all the new Space Wolves stuff. Read the rules, drool over the modeling potential of either Chapter, and then do the one that lights your imagination on fire(no pun intended). :D

Couldn't have said it better myself!! :)

Shadow Marine
13-09-2009, 14:05
I'm the same, my next army is going to be all terminators aka Deathwing with World Eater FW stuff, but I am tempted by the SW stuff and they may get an all terminator army.

Must not be tempted by shiny stuff!

the1stpip
13-09-2009, 17:48
I voted Sallies as I am collecting them.

Seemples.

Haunted_Undead
13-09-2009, 18:16
Id go with the Salamanders cos you know every one under the sun will have Space Wolves for there power gaming potential. With that in mind also most people will be bored of the Space Wolves a month or so after release cos they inevitably end up being all the same boring lists

Emeraldw
13-09-2009, 18:42
Id go with the Salamanders cos you know every one under the sun will have Space Wolves for there power gaming potential. With that in mind also most people will be bored of the Space Wolves a month or so after release cos they inevitably end up being all the same boring lists

I disagree overall, but your last point is true. Most Space Wolf Lists will look rather similar I believe. However, that is true of most marine lists too in my experience.

I am still debating on my options as I consider building my next army but I must admit, Wolves have a big advantage over the other options due to their models being so pretty and flexible.

Haunted_Undead
13-09-2009, 18:46
I disagree overall, but your last point is true. Most Space Wolf Lists will look rather similar I believe. However, that is true of most marine lists too in my experience.

I am still debating on my options as I consider building my next army but I must admit, Wolves have a big advantage over the other options due to their models being so pretty and flexible.

Thats very true a lot of marine lists look exactly the same which is why people get so annoyed about how many books there are for SM`s. Its boring and repetitive to play against.

I`d not call that an advantage myself. Most of the 40k range is very good and there is flexibility between almost all of the range. Yes SW get new kits but nothing all that impressive.

Emeraldw
13-09-2009, 18:59
Thats very true a lot of marine lists look exactly the same which is why people get so annoyed about how many books there are for SM`s. Its boring and repetitive to play against.

I`d not call that an advantage myself. Most of the 40k range is very good and there is flexibility between almost all of the range. Yes SW get new kits but nothing all that impressive.

I disagree as the detail on the new sprues as well, the way they represent the Space Wolves is quite frankly amazing. Look at some of the pictures posted in the rumor thread on ~p96, a poster put together some new models and they are impressive. The runes on the sword, the Wolf Axe and Lightning Claws all on one sprue, the only thing it lacks is all the special weapon options. Thankfully I have a friend who has bits out the whazoo if I wish to pursue wolves as I am currently considering. Though I do agree that the Space Marine range itself is far from bad and is probably one of the best ranges, if only because of the options available to them.

I meant Codex Space Marine lists look similar, but I admit that if my Eldar were playing Black Templar, Space Wolves or Codex Marines there isn't a large change in tactics. It changes a bit more against chaos who are rather different to normal marines. Blood Angels might be different as they are almost as fast as me with so many jump packs but I only played one BA player once and it was his first game.

However, that is a shooty list, I would imagine that it changes a bit more for Orks or other CC armies when fighting these lists as BT, Blood Angels and now Space Wolves can actually put up a fight in Close Combat. Against shooting, it doesn't matter if they are overwhelmingly strong in CC as even normal marines would win combat against Tau and my Non CC specialists.

Bergioyn
13-09-2009, 19:49
I voted Salamanders because I strongly dislike Space Wolves.

Warsurge
13-09-2009, 21:43
Salamanders.

Everyone is going to play Wolves when the new codex comes out. I started a Space Wolves force a long time ago and decided to drop it so I don't get the "Oh boy hes jumping on the band wagon". Salamanders are one of the most underrated Chapters of all time and yet they are a lot better than most. Better than Raven Guard, White Scars, and Iron Hands. In terms of doing the most I think they are the 2nd best, right under Ultramarines that have fought so much on the eastern front with the Tau, Tyranids, and Orks to some extent.

Fluff wise Salamanders are natural blacksmiths, so they are able to create better weaponry that most techmarines. They live amongst their planets civilians which makes them a bit more human that the other ones. They are also more compassionate and are willing to help planets than most other chapters. Chapter Master Tu'Shan smashed a Marines Malevolent face in because he thought it was ok to kill civilians. The Salamanders even stayed behind to help rebuild their cities so they wouldn't die out.

Play style is the same as all the other vanilla marines. If you get Vulkan He'stan your flamers/meltas count as twin-linked so that is very dangerous to your opponent for if you are able to get a drop pod in with Vulkan He'stan and a few marines with flamers/meltas in they are pretty much dead.

Fluff wise Space Wolves seem to be a bit barbaric, having no respect towards others, even in their own Chapter. Space Wolves mess around with their gene-seed trying become more hairier than Sean Connery (Is that even possible?!). They drink, they fight, they eat just like your average viking.

Play style is more orientated towards assault. It is mandatory to have one squad of Grey Hunters. Blood Claws are nice in drop pods. They get a Leman Russ variant tank which is nice if you like something that the other chapters don't but other than that its just like any other tank.

Emeraldw
13-09-2009, 22:00
Warsurge:

You might be interested to know that Space Wolves are also one of the few chapters to actually care about and work for the populace of the Imperium as well.

Scy
13-09-2009, 22:00
Fluff wise Space Wolves seem to be a bit barbaric, having no respect towards others, even in their own Chapter. Space Wolves mess around with their gene-seed trying become more hairier than Sean Connery (Is that even possible?!). They drink, they fight, they eat just like your average viking.



:wtf: Que?

Warsurge
13-09-2009, 22:07
Meaning that most chapters don't have any respect for other chapters and on top of that they don't even have respect for themselves. That is what I meant. Next time don't criticize me...

@Emeraldw: Ah ok thanks for clearing that up.

Scy
13-09-2009, 22:15
Meaning that most chapters don't have any respect for other chapters and on top of that they don't even have respect for themselves. That is what I meant. Next time don't criticize me...

@Emeraldw: Ah ok thanks for clearing that up.

Think you need to read up on your space wolves fluff, mate.

Astrotrain
13-09-2009, 22:31
lets not forget its the space wolves who obeyed horus to attempt to destroy the thousand sons when magnus tried to warn the emperor of horus's betrayal.So its their fault that the TS are a traitor force.Its like if someone tired to warn JFK of Lee Harvey Oswald and is killed by the CIA under orders of Oswald himself.

Hicks
13-09-2009, 22:39
Fluffwise, they are two really cool chapters. Since you're going to paint a lot of marines, I suggest you go for the one you think looks the best.

Space Wolves have it easy since they have their own models, but just look at the painting forum to see amazing Salamanders convertions. It's not too hard to put a Dark Elf Corsaire cloak on a marine, use a couple bits from FW (if you like them) and make superb Salamanders.

Warsurge
13-09-2009, 23:08
Think you need to read up on your space wolves fluff, mate.

Ever heard of the Lion and the Wolf? Ever heard of Propero being slaughtered? Ever heard of the 3 tasks the Emperor faced Russ in?

They do what they want first then take orders after, thus not caring about others.

"The Space Wolves endanger not only themselves but the lives of their comrades in arms. If they are so eager to die, and they will not heed the words of their superiors, then let them rush headlong into the jaws of the lion. We can only hope some of them get caught in its throat."
- Lord Solar Macharius, Tactica Ultimatum


The Space Wolves are known for their fiercely anti-authoritarian behaviour. They strongly resist the central command structure of the Imperium, and refuse to follow the dictates of the Codex Astartes, which lays the structure and tactics to be used by all Space Marines.

@Scy: Why don't you tell him what you think he should go instead of trying to criticize me.

Reflex
14-09-2009, 02:18
do you like lizards?
do you like dogs?
there in lies your answer. hehe

quatrofromageo
14-09-2009, 07:52
Thanks for all your points guys.

Space Wolves definitely have the character and the background story.
The Lion and The Wolf
Prospero Burns

By Comparison Salamanders only have the Drop Site Massacre...where they got massacred. That's it for their history.

It seems that a lot of people here are saying 'Salamanders' to be different.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that my regular opponents play Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, Orks and Tyranids.

Hellebore
14-09-2009, 07:59
Ever heard of the Lion and the Wolf? Ever heard of Propero being slaughtered? Ever heard of the 3 tasks the Emperor faced Russ in?

They do what they want first then take orders after, thus not caring about others.

"The Space Wolves endanger not only themselves but the lives of their comrades in arms. If they are so eager to die, and they will not heed the words of their superiors, then let them rush headlong into the jaws of the lion. We can only hope some of them get caught in its throat."
- Lord Solar Macharius, Tactica Ultimatum


You are partly right. The space wolves don't tend to respect anyone that hasn't proven themselves worthy of respect. Deeds not words (it was my school motto :D) is what they respect.

HOWEVER, they will go to any lengths to defend and support those they believe worthy.

The most famous example is Logan Grimnar threatening to go toe to toe with the inquisition itself after the 1st War for Armageddon due to their treatment of the civilian population.

Grimnar's leadership and comradery are so well known he even gets special rules to reflect them. It specially says he is the best known and most loved warrior in the galaxy.

Imperial guardsmen rally around him because they know he won't desert them.

The space wolves respect deeds. If you are a normal human and still fight you are accorded respect.

EDIT: The Salamanders are my second favourite chapter after the wolves. I have an entire company of them (mostly) painted.

Hellebore

Vaktathi
14-09-2009, 08:04
Hrm, I like the Salamanders from a fluff perspective, but in my last 18 or so games against SM's, only 1 or 2 has been against anything *but* Vulkan armies. They are a dime a dozen unfortunately now. Not to denigrate anyones army, but they are almost the default SM army you come across these days.

The SW's, to me at least, sound like a very overdone army with lots of silly hype and overexaggerated fluff. they have lots of potential to be cool, but seem very overdone.

Reflex
14-09-2009, 09:15
Hrm, I like the Salamanders from a fluff perspective, but in my last 18 or so games against SM's, only 1 or 2 has been against anything *but* Vulkan armies. They are a dime a dozen unfortunately now. Not to denigrate anyones army, but they are almost the default SM army you come across these days.

The SW's, to me at least, sound like a very overdone army with lots of silly hype and overexaggerated fluff. they have lots of potential to be cool, but seem very overdone.

this is the situation with, well every new release. i remember back when black templars got a codex in 4th edition. i loved and played them in 3rd, but as soon as the codex came out i put them away because all of a sudden a crud load of people were playing them and it made for bad fun.

so we will see this happen to the wolves, an army i also play, as it happened to salamanders. after the next few xeno armies are released i expect the vulkan doom hammer army will die off a bit as people go and play some more exotic armies. i hope anyway, variety is nice.

Scy
14-09-2009, 10:07
Ever heard of the Lion and the Wolf? Ever heard of Propero being slaughtered? Ever heard of the 3 tasks the Emperor faced Russ in?

They do what they want first then take orders after, thus not caring about others.

"The Space Wolves endanger not only themselves but the lives of their comrades in arms. If they are so eager to die, and they will not heed the words of their superiors, then let them rush headlong into the jaws of the lion. We can only hope some of them get caught in its throat."
- Lord Solar Macharius, Tactica Ultimatum



@Scy: Why don't you tell him what you think he should go instead of trying to criticize me.

That's all well and good mate but I bolded the part where you said "having no respect towards others, even in their own Chapter.". If that quote from Solar Macharius is your reason behind thinking they have no respect for their fellow chapter marines then I could give you a few quotes that would disagree with that. It's crazy to think they have no repsect for their fellow wolves.

And stop being so touchy, sheesh.

jams86
14-09-2009, 20:05
sallies FTW! but i'm biased being a sallies player, who you can't moan at for running a spamtastic vulkan list because i don't :D

LKHERO
14-09-2009, 20:13
When picking a chapter, you need to worry about 2 things and 2 things only:

1. Fluff (the theme, the character, what that Chapter represents)
2. The color (be it Dark Green/Red Eyes, or Grey Blue/Feral-isc)

If you think both armies are cool fluff wise, its just color preference.

Emeraldw
14-09-2009, 20:41
Hrm, I like the Salamanders from a fluff perspective, but in my last 18 or so games against SM's, only 1 or 2 has been against anything *but* Vulkan armies. They are a dime a dozen unfortunately now. Not to denigrate anyones army, but they are almost the default SM army you come across these days.

The SW's, to me at least, sound like a very overdone army with lots of silly hype and overexaggerated fluff. they have lots of potential to be cool, but seem very overdone.

I am sure you know why that is too. It was unfortunate side effect of the new marine dex. Personally I would think Pedro Kantor would be just as popular rule wise, but people like Salamanders, combine that with the fact that Vulkan makes a strong list and suddenly that is all you see.

Warsurge
15-09-2009, 03:30
@Scy: Sorry for being rather aggressive. I should have elaborated a bit more on what I meant by having no respect for each other. I don't know if this is true or was a typical stereotype that they fight and get drunk. Not like a slap in the face every time I see you kind of thing.

@Hellebore: Thanks for helping me out on that. I really didn't know that Grimnar was that well respected. I guess I need to whip out my old SW codex and read into it a bit more. Where else do you find Space Wolves history?

@quatrofromageo: I changed my mind. Wolves over and over. They were my first ever army. With your opponents (DA and TS) you seem to have an advantage over because they are more of a shooty army rather than a close combat orientated one. You can just drop drop pods near them and they will enter CC where you are able to win without any major hiccups. Tyranids and Orks - I am not to familiar with them but you may have a problem with both. Both are horde armies so you want to look at getting Vindicators. It will clear a fair bit of them off the table and then you can just rush in with your Blood Claws and finish them off.

As far as I have seen and I am sure that is only the tip of the iceberg, the new SW models look...whats a way to put it...out of this world! Totally separates them from all the other Space Marine chapters.

Hellebore
15-09-2009, 04:03
Well there is the Index Astartes books.

The latest codex should go into it with more depth, it's 96 pages long so should have more background.

The space wolf novels talk about it a bit.

The 1st armageddon war information is floating around but I can't remember where, sorry.

The Eye of Terror codex does have some stuff about Logan Grimnar - he was supreme commander of the Imperial forces. Even Creed bowed to him.

Hellebore

BrotherMoses
15-09-2009, 04:36
Salamanders. They're a really cool sounding army. Very unique. Every Carl, Jeremy, and Lee will be playing Space Wolves here soon. You'll get to be unique and cool. Thats hard.

/sigh sometimes I just wish they'd stick Blood Angels in the space marine 'dex.

Warsurge
15-09-2009, 06:06
@Hellebore: Ah ok thanks very much for the help.

quatrofromageo
15-09-2009, 07:21
I have *ahem* "received further detailed information" from the Space Wolves Codex.

10 grey hunters with 2 melta guns for 155 points :eek:

I'm sold! :cheese:

LKHERO
15-09-2009, 08:29
155 points for a 10-man squad with 2x Meltaguns?

I don't think so. Grey Hunters are 15 points per, and you need a Wolf Guard to take 2x Special Weapons.

Your sources fail.

Charlie Scene
15-09-2009, 10:19
There's going to be an absurd amount of puppies and "counts as" clowns soon, I'd suggest Salamanders.

Reflex
15-09-2009, 10:20
155 points for a 10-man squad with 2x Meltaguns?

I don't think so. Grey Hunters are 15 points per, and you need a Wolf Guard to take 2x Special Weapons.

Your sources fail.
i second this motion.

Charlie Scene
15-09-2009, 10:39
You are partly right. The space wolves don't tend to respect anyone that hasn't proven themselves worthy of respect. Deeds not words (it was my school motto :D) is what they respect.

That doesn't hold water at all.

Striking the Lion for beating him to the punch shows me he's petty (Lions deeds were greater and he nerd raged) and unable to think before acting (LOL PROSPERO).

Even the Emperor believed his son Leman to be a "drunkard and a glutton" until they did combat; combat Leman lost and blamed on having been drunk.

This doesn't sound like an honor-bound hero of the ages, Hellebore - it sounds like you're just blindly defending a chapter you're fond of, no offense brah.

folnjir
15-09-2009, 10:56
I think we are going to see a lot of new Wolf armies in the next few months, Salamanders will be a bit different.

Hellebore
15-09-2009, 11:11
That doesn't hold water at all.

Striking the Lion for beating him to the punch shows me he's petty (Lions deeds were greater and he nerd raged) and unable to think before acting (LOL PROSPERO).

Even the Emperor believed his son Leman to be a "drunkard and a glutton" until they did combat; combat Leman lost and blamed on having been drunk.

This doesn't sound like an honor-bound hero of the ages, Hellebore - it sounds like you're just blindly defending a chapter you're fond of, no offense brah.

Umm, the space wolves aren't Leman Russ. He was also the 3rd best Imperial commander of the crusade. Only the Lion and Horus exceeded his victory tally. He wasn't an idiot, he was simply primitive.

You treat 'respect' and 'worthiness' as objective things but they aren't. The space wolves only respect people who perform deeds Space wolves respect. Whether that's worthy to you or me is irrelevant. A space wolf won't respect someone that doesn't drink, doesn't fight his enemies until he's dying etc.

Leman Russ attacked the Lion because he felt as if the Lion had stabbed him in the back. He took away his chance to wipe a smirch on his honour away. Lion killed the renegade commander that had insulted Russ.

Whether that's objectively right or not, from Russ' perspective Lion had dishonoured him and he reacted accordingly. Very few people do things from the perspective of THEM being the bad guy. To Russ, he was doing the correct thing.

As for the Emperor, he didn't exactly have boundless enthusiasm for any of his sons. Russ was far more barbaric than his brothers. Civility vs barbary. His actions are of the barbarian king completely confidant of his supremecy. A stranger walks in and challenges the king of the known world? What temerity! That you and I know the Emperor was the Emperor doesn't change the situation. Russ saw an upstart come to challenge his supremacy (a supremacy he was rightly proud of). He acted every inch the arrogant warrior king.

The Space Wolves aren't all carbon copies of Leman Russ any more than every blood angel is identical to Sanguinius. Otherwise there wouldn't be distinct and individual personalities within chapters in the first place.


Hellebore

Charlie Scene
15-09-2009, 11:22
Umm, the space wolves aren't Leman Russ. He was also the 3rd best Imperial commander of the crusade. Only the Lion and Horus exceeded his victory tally. He wasn't an idiot, he was simply primitive. I didn't say they were - I merely am pointing out the source of their gene seed. A man more similar to an angry frat guy than a leader of superhuman defenders of mankind.


Leman Russ attacked the Lion because he felt as if the Lion had stabbed him in the back. He took away his chance to wipe a smirch on his honour away. Lion killed the renegade commander that had insulted Russ. Russ called "dibs" on a renegade commander that the Lion was already in the process of defeating, he had made a masterful plan that took weeks to devise. "That guy called me names, he was mine!" seems pretty foolish to use as a reason for being "stabbed in the back".


Whether that's objectively right or not, from Russ' perspective Lion had dishonoured him and he reacted accordingly. Very few people do things from the perspective of THEM being the bad guy. To Russ, he was doing the correct thing. You said it best, primitive.



The Space Wolves aren't all carbon copies of Leman Russ any more than every blood angel is identical to Sanguinius. Otherwise there wouldn't be distinct and individual personalities within chapters in the first place. I'm aware, there's unique individuals amongst all chapters - again, I'm merely pointing out the man they admire and praise above all others.

Hellebore
15-09-2009, 11:26
I didn't say they were - I merely am pointing out the source of their gene seed. A man more similar to an angry frat guy than a leader of superhuman defenders of mankind.

Russ called "dibs" on a renegade commander that the Lion was already in the process of defeating, he had made a masterful plan that took weeks to devise. "That guy called me names, he was mine!" seems pretty foolish to use as a reason for being "stabbed in the back".

You said it best, primitive.


I'm aware, there's unique individuals amongst all chapters - again, I'm merely pointing out the man they admire and praise above all others.


And GW also says that Logan Grimnar is the best loved and most famous warrior in the galaxy. That all Imperial warriors respect and love him. That the space wolves are the most human of space marines.

I'm not trying to defend Leman Russ, hence why I called him primitive. You think I'd sugar coat it? He was what he was.

But that doesn't preclude him or the wolves in general from being honourable or personable. Just in a fashion of their own making.

Logan Grimnar isn't what he is for no reason.

There irreverance makes them appear more human to the mortal soldiers around them, making them easier to relate to. This is simply what GW has written about the wolves.

Hellebore

Charlie Scene
15-09-2009, 11:38
And GW also says that Logan Grimnar is the best loved and most famous warrior in the galaxy. That all Imperial warriors respect and love him.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a link to the source or a rough idea of where I can dig that up?

I find it foolish for GW to tell us of who is the most respected and or loved of all imperial warriors. If I were a mere man, I'd have a lot more respect and love for a man like Yarrick than I would a giant superhuman wearing a suit of armor made from the same metal as a tank. :p

Hellebore
15-09-2009, 11:42
It says it in his entry in the 2nd ed codex on pg66, and says it in the 3rd ed codex on pg 27 under 'Legendary Leader'. I assume it says it in the latest codex, because he has his "+1A to everyone within 18" " special rule, granted because of his popularity.

Hellebore

Charlie Scene
15-09-2009, 11:51
It says it in his entry in the 2nd ed codex on pg66, and says it in the 3rd ed codex on pg 27 under 'Legendary Leader'. I assume it says it in the latest codex, because he has his "+1A to everyone within 18" " special rule, granted because of his popularity.

Hellebore

I think this is another indication of the 'dex writers behind Space Wolves really loving the army. They're clearly very passionate about the Wolves as a whole. Making him their personal Calgar jesus is a little off to me, but - different strokes 'fer different folks.

Hellebore
15-09-2009, 11:54
well, he's been like that since 1993, before the current DBZ syndrome.

Hellebore

Souleater
15-09-2009, 12:18
Since 2nd Ed I've also felt that the Studio types have more of a fondness for the SWs than other Marine ARmies. It isn't something I could pin down but I just get the feeling frm the way they are generally portrayed and the stuff they like their personality more.

Maybe they like the Metal Viking image as ti reminds the creative types of themselves? Plenty of gamers like the kind of metal rock that SW remind me of (plus beer and wrestling with each other in a big smokey hall, pursuits which have never appealed to me.)

(Warning this post may contain unfounded speculation)

Captain Micha
15-09-2009, 12:35
Do both. Play Salamanders using the SW rules.

ex-green
15-09-2009, 12:39
The ability for lots of cool conversions means that the Space Wolves will more than likley be my next army

jedipenguin
15-09-2009, 13:14
Go with the army who's background and imagery most interests you.

On an OT but not unrelated note, it makes me sad to see that despite the fact that I've collected SW in one incarnation or another since the original WD list if I walk into a GW with wolves over the next 2 or 3 months I'm going to be labelled as a power gaming band wagon jumper (or at least that seems to be the consensus from some posters here)........just as well they closed my local store I guess.

jedipenguin
15-09-2009, 13:16
Double post, please delete :)

Thud
15-09-2009, 13:30
On an OT but not unrelated note, it makes me sad to see that despite the fact that I've collected SW in one incarnation or another since the original WD list if I walk into a GW with wolves over the next 2 or 3 months I'm going to be labelled as a power gaming band wagon jumper (or at least that seems to be the consensus from some posters here)........just as well they closed my local store I guess.

Won't showing up with an SW army consisting of nothing but models older than the shop manager set you apart from the teenagers with unpainted and excessively glued models? ;)