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Sarah S
14-09-2009, 16:34
If a unit with barding has its movement halved by some source (such as the Anvil of Doom), is their movement (M-1)/2 or is it (M/2) -1?

So would a normal cav unit with a normal move of 8-1=7 end up with (8-1)/2=3.5 or (8/2)-1=3?

I am leaning towards 3" because the units movement is 8, and barding is a penalty applied to it. The effect halves the movement value of the unit, but does not halve the penalty so the full penalty should apply.

stripsteak
14-09-2009, 16:36
the barding is a 1" movement penalty it doesn't affect their base M value so i'd go with (M/2)-1

Avian
14-09-2009, 16:43
Mathematically speaking, at least, modifiers apply AFTER halving/doubling, unless specified otherwise.

Ex: 1+3*2=7 and not 8.

ARabidNun
14-09-2009, 16:43
Good question. I actually thought the penalty was reduced to a movment value of 3.5" but now that I reflect again I agree with your assessment that the spell reduces movement and therefore should not reduce the penalty because it would contradict the purpose and "accelerate" the mount by .5".

Their basic movement value with barding is 7 (8-1) with a penalty of -1 because it "impedes movement". Therefore, the penalty should be applied after the basic movement value is halved resulting in a movement of 3".

theunwantedbeing
14-09-2009, 17:09
I wonder if you'de also then allow mv8 knights with bardings to march/charge 15"?

Following the same logic of applying the multiplier before any modifiers.
8x2 is 16
16-1 is 15

8/2 is 4
4-1 is 3

Same way of doing things.
Doesnt seem correct though.

Sarah S
14-09-2009, 17:23
That seems quite wrong.

But it seems equally wrong to let them move 3.5 when their movement is halved. I don't have my books with me right now, but is there any way we can get around this?

stripsteak
14-09-2009, 17:57
well the anvil specifically says it's movement characteristic is halved. so for the anvil (M/2)-1". other items/spells might depend on a case by case basis if they half the Movement rate, or Movement characteristic. Marching for example says it doubles the movement rate of the unit, the movement rate includes the barding penalty already.

Sirroelivan
14-09-2009, 18:05
Aye, what stripsteak says would seem the correct way to deal with it.
Cavalry mounts with barding would have a movement characteristic of 8" and a movement rate of 7". Then it just depends on the exact wording of the spell, item, ... affecting the unit.

wolf40k
14-09-2009, 18:09
Math basics, Multiplication and division come before subtraction and addition.
So if GW follows the logical way of doing things(sorry I can't even write that with a strait face:p) The movement would be 3".

Drachen_Jager
14-09-2009, 18:34
Math basics, Multiplication and division come before subtraction and addition.
So if GW follows the logical way of doing things(sorry I can't even write that with a strait face:p) The movement would be 3".

That's not true at all. They only come before if there are no brackets to modify the equation. So 1+1(*2) is 4 and 1+1*2 is 3. Your math is a little too basic and doesn't really apply in this case as you can add brackets wherever you want to modify the order of calculations.

xragg
14-09-2009, 18:39
(1+1)*2 is 4, not 1+1(*2)

ARabidNun
14-09-2009, 19:27
I wonder if you'de also then allow mv8 knights with bardings to march/charge 15"?

According to the rule for marching, the unit doubles its "normal" movement rate which I am understanding as its allowable rate. Therefore the penalty of barding is applied to the basic movement of 8 resulting in an allowable "normal" movement of 7. Doubled for marching would be 14.

BTW, I loved the math arguement. Equations in brackets are settled first, followed by multiplication/ division etc...(the more complex factors) then by any related simple math such as addition or subtraction. Drachen_Jager had the right idea, simply to reverse the brackets, unless it affects a branch of other figures such as 2*(1+1) = 2*1+2*1.

theunwantedbeing
14-09-2009, 19:54
Page 12 of the rulebook disagree's with you ARabidNun.
Your normal movement rate is infact the movement value on your profile.

Kalandros
14-09-2009, 21:05
M8 marches 16"
M8 with barding marches 14", because the M8 becomes M7. Its not a penalty to the current movement you'Re doing, its a penalty to the movement value.

Sarah S
14-09-2009, 21:29
M8 marches 16"
M8 with barding marches 14", because the M8 becomes M7. Its not a penalty to the current movement you'Re doing, its a penalty to the movement value.


So you are saying that a M8 unit with Barding that has it's movement reduced by half would then move 3.5"?

That seems very wrong to me.

xragg
14-09-2009, 21:52
It makes sense that the barding penalty would be halved when the normal movement is halved. The barding penalty doesnt represent the difficulty a horse to taking his first step. It represents how much slower he normally would move.

When a horse loses a 1000' race by 100', you wouldnt expect a horse to lose a 500' race by 100' (assuming they run a steady pace). One would expect the horse to lose by 50'. In the same manner, you would expect the horse to lose by 200' in a 2000' race, not the same 100'.

The longer or shorter you make the race, the more or less something that is hampering the horse will effect him (such has a pulled muscle, bad traction, or extra weight from barding).

DarkTerror
14-09-2009, 23:42
It makes sense that the barding penalty would be halved when the normal movement is halved. The barding penalty doesnt represent the difficulty a horse to taking his first step. It represents how much slower he normally would move.

When a horse loses a 1000' race by 100', you wouldnt expect a horse to lose a 500' race by 100' (assuming they run a steady pace). One would expect the horse to lose by 50'. In the same manner, you would expect the horse to lose by 200' in a 2000' race, not the same 100'.

The longer or shorter you make the race, the more or less something that is hampering the horse will effect him (such has a pulled muscle, bad traction, or extra weight from barding).

How dare you use logic in the rules forum!

Get out!!!




;)

Kalandros
15-09-2009, 00:14
So you are saying that a M8 unit with Barding that has it's movement reduced by half would then move 3.5"?

That seems very wrong to me.

Its not wrong.

First you have a penalty for Barding
M8 - 1 = M7
Then your Movement is halved due to some other effect:
M7/2 = 3.5

There is nothign wrong with this and it is exactly how its written in the rules isn't it?
And then when its your turn to move, you decide (and can) that you want to March Move. Your move value is currently 3.5", so you March 7".

Penalties apply before bonuses for the simple reason that they are applied in order they happen: You start with Barding, so that's M7 at the start, the halved movement is applied by your enemy, in their phase, so you aren't at your Movement phase yet - M value at the moment: 3.5!

When your movement phase comes around, you wish to use the "Movement value doubled for Charges & Marches" and so you take your current M value, of 3.5" and double it to 7".

Axis
15-09-2009, 00:35
Sometimes the simplest approach is the best.

Cav with M8 has barding, just simply treat them as having M7 on their profile. So charge 14", and when move is halved its 3.5". Is this backed up by RAW, probably not but it is simple and intuitive. As usual if you are going to a tournament ask the organisers what their ruling would be.

Foxbat
15-09-2009, 02:02
The closest rule analogy I could find was the “Move Chargers – Charging” rule (BRB pg 21) where it describes how moving over difficult terrain, which halves movement, resulted in a Knight unit’s maximum charge range dropping to 7”. It should be noted that the “Knights” movement was previously defined in the Movement section as being 8” less 1” for barding (refer to Movement Rate – Barding rule, BRB, pg 12).

Based on this, it would seem that GW may view the barding as an adjustment to the model’s M stat such that once taken, the new lower M stat becomes the model’s “normal” M stat against which any further adjustments are made.

wolf40k
15-09-2009, 03:19
The closest rule analogy I could find was the “Move Chargers – Charging” rule (BRB pg 21) where it describes how moving over difficult terrain, which halves movement, resulted in a Knight unit’s maximum charge range dropping to 7”. It should be noted that the “Knights” movement was previously defined in the Movement section as being 8” less 1” for barding (refer to Movement Rate – Barding rule, BRB, pg 12).

Based on this, it would seem that GW may view the barding as an adjustment to the model’s M stat such that once taken, the new lower M stat becomes the model’s “normal” M stat against which any further adjustments are made.

There you go I can live with that.

T10
16-09-2009, 08:25
I do not know of anyone that claims their Chaos Knights can charge 15"...

-T10

Condottiere
16-09-2009, 10:04
I know some who tried charging 15".