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Highlander
15-09-2009, 16:57
That´s situation happend with me in a tournament, and i wish to know what do you do in this situation.

G = Goblin doom diver -

S = swordmasters


T = Teclis


The scenery was like i describe below

----------------------
| GGG
| GGG
| GGG
| GGG
|
| 13´´ distance from spear chukka
|
| SSSSSSS
|
| 21 ´´ from swordmasters
|
| T
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------

My oponent couldnt target Teclis with spear chucka because he had not lin of sight to him, tought, he exploit the rule and guess 34 to take Teclis instead of target the unit of swordmasters. The rule says that you mut be more try more accurate that you can, and he answer me that 34 is the mroe acurate for him. It´s obvious that is not, even an iniciant players wont get a 21´´ from mistakes, but i dont find anthing in rule or faq that clear explain that he cannot do that.
My question is, how you guys concerns in this situation in a game or tournament ?

Thank you

Memnos
15-09-2009, 16:58
Spearchukkas don't guess range. That was flat out cheating. Was he using a stonethrower?

nosferatu1001
15-09-2009, 17:02
Yes, that is flat out cheating: 1) spear chukkas use normal BS to hit, and do not guess ranges, and 2) you cannot guess something that is obviously wrong, same as you cannot declare a first turn charge to get WLC to run away automatically.

Highlander
15-09-2009, 17:03
Sorry my mistake, it was a goblin doon diver he used

nosferatu1001
15-09-2009, 17:05
Still, something that is out by close to 3x the distance is clearly cheating

Unuhexium
15-09-2009, 17:16
I can only agree with the comments above. Even though there's nothing in the rulebook that prevents it, it's still largely regarded as cheating and in effect allowed your opponent to cheat by playing bumb/blind.

Llew
15-09-2009, 17:19
Stand him in one spot. Stand the same distance from him that the first target is from the Doomdiver. (13"). Now let him scoot back 3 inches, and once he's settled, say, "I am about to kick 34", at testicle level, from where I am now. You should be easily out of range, standing at what should be 37 inches. Before I kick, let me ask again if you are confident in your original range guess." ;)

Personally, I wouldn't put up with it. It's bad sportsmanship and I don't need to play people who feel the need to cheat at a game. Of course, that's also probably why I have no interest in tournies.

Enigmatik1
15-09-2009, 17:43
So if I use a catapult to try to place the template in an advantageous spot in an attempt to hit multiple units while trying to take the inevitable scattering into account (assuming the catapult has LoS the units in question), I'm cheating? Or is this cheating because the OP's opponent didn't have LoS to Teclis? I only ask because I tried lobbing a screaming skull into a tightly packed area with three units of skaven inside the template...the scatter die let me down, otherwise that could've been ugly. But if that isn't legal, I'd like to know.

I'm not entirely clear as for some reason, I had a hard time following the OPs example (I'm having a dumb day...sorry). :chrome:

nosferatu1001
15-09-2009, 17:51
Assuming no hills, the target was the Swordmasters and a best effort to guess at them was required; teclis could not be the target as the DD couldn't see him.

There is a section on the BRB FAQ that clearly states that declaring something that is obviously wrong is cheating. Now while this refers to charging only it shows the point!

In a tournament get the TO over, and your opponent would either be told that the shot cannot be declared (being a dick so gets punished) or that they forfeit the game for cheating.

Drachen_Jager
15-09-2009, 17:53
Tell him you're going to do a little exercise, you'll punch the air 20 inches in front of his face.

Ooops, guessed the range wrong >smack<

Flat out cheating, if he insists on taking the shot I'd let him but give him a 0 for sports, if it's a non sports rated tourney I'd just object and seek a referee if he insisted.

PeG
15-09-2009, 17:53
You have to target something you can see. As long as you have LoS you can try hitting multiple units or whatever you want. If firing against the front rank of something you can also make the guess so that if you miss you are more likely to shoot long than short but you should have at least some possibility to hit what you are aiming for.

For example if the swordmasters are 13 inches from the doom diver he can make a guess of 11 inches since the minimum addition would be 2 inches which makes it a possible hit. If he on the other hand would have had LoS to somehting in the rear of the enemy (for example on a hill) he could have aimed at that and guessed that he would roll a 10 making it more likely that he will fire short. Since both scenarios actually allows him to hit his intended target they are allowed. Of course a guess can also be slightly wrong but obviously not as much as in the first example.

Condottiere
15-09-2009, 18:26
I don't use Hot Pots a lot, rather cannons.

However, it depends on the circumstances before I'd say it was bad sportsmanship. An experienced artillerist (eg myself) has a fairly good idea how far the target is from the war machine, so if I guess grossly wrong, it's either the first turn I'm using targetting it, or I wasn't paying attention.

For a player with inexperience in this aspect of the game, you should close an eye, unless he serially abuses it, in which case you call him on it. In the example above, it does seem an abuse of the rules, especially for a war machine that can be self-corrected in flight. If it has no LoS to Teclis, it shouldn't be able to target him until the Doomdiver is in the air, and even drunk, twentyone inches is practically half the width of the table.

stripsteak
15-09-2009, 18:30
most people who play fantasy get pretty good at knowing ranges. as a personal guideline i give roughly .5" miss for each 12" of distance before i think someones deliberately guessing wrong. little more or less depending on how experienced they are.

there is really very little 'guessing' to distances in this game if you are paying attention. you should know roughly how far apart things are on turn 1 and should be paying enough attention to what your opponent is doing during movment to be able to estimate where things are.

Enigmatik1
15-09-2009, 18:36
Thanks for the clarification folks. :)

Izram
15-09-2009, 18:37
Just an opinion;
I consider it a reasonable guess if the unit it can see and is aiming for can still be hit on a scatter result. If Teclis was just 5 inches behind the unit, I wouldn't call it cheating to guess 18 inches. You can anticipate a scatter and factor it into your guess, so as long as the seen unit is within the possible range of scatter, it is legit IMO.

As far as aiming for multiple units, as long as you can see the point you are aiming at, I wouldn't dock you for sportsmanship.

Enigmatik1
15-09-2009, 18:54
Just an opinion;
I consider it a reasonable guess if the unit it can see and is aiming for can still be hit on a scatter result. If Teclis was just 5 inches behind the unit, I wouldn't call it cheating to guess 18 inches. You can anticipate a scatter and factor it into your guess, so as long as the seen unit is within the possible range of scatter, it is legit IMO.

As far as aiming for multiple units, as long as you can see the point you are aiming at, I wouldn't dock you for sportsmanship.

That sounds fair. If I am going for a specific model/unit I will try to be as specific as possible. However, there are times when my opponents have multiple units in a rather tight space. I'll try my damndest to land the template to hit the most units possible with my 'pult so that even with decent scatter, I'll hit something :)

I, for one, would never aim at a spot on the table I can't see. That's just tacky.

xragg
15-09-2009, 19:05
In a tournament get the TO over, and your opponent would either be told that the shot cannot be declared (being a dick so gets punished) or that they forfeit the game for cheating.

This is exactly what should happen if he refuses to cooperate with you on the matter. First time should result in just not shooting. Second offense (even if in another game) should result in a forfeit. I wouldnt forfeit him the first offense unless his sportsmanship with the official was horrible.

Griefbringer
15-09-2009, 20:33
I am somehow reminded of the Annual 2002 article which pretty explicitely stated that stone-throwers are allowed to overguess, while mortars are not allowed to over-guess.

Nurgling Chieftain
15-09-2009, 21:45
The rules for stone throwers were different in 6th edition in this regard.

Axis
16-09-2009, 01:36
Overguessing is dodgy, especially in this instance! However, i wouldn't have had a problem if teclis was just behind it (say 2-3 inches) and he used the D3 inches to hit him or overguessed slightly. That to me, is fine.

There are some instances of overguessing which i think are ok. I dont think overguessing to hit units that you cant see is good. However, i think it is fine to overguess with some warmachines (i'm especially thinking of the helstorm) in order to reduce the risk of hitting your own units. If your units are near to enemy units i see no reason that you shouldn't be allowed to send stones/rockets further along than the unit.

Other things that are fine is guessing extra inches to try hit the back of a large regiment when there is lots of stuff packed nearby. This way you maximise hitting something.

Basically, if you roll a hit the marker should be somewhere nearby to the unit. Some people do suck at guessing. I guessed a shot for my doom diver in my first game with it about 18 inches too far. This was a genuine attempt to hit something but struggled in estimating the distance (the target was a long way away). In my case it was obvious that i wasn't trying to hit anything else since nothing was behind the targeted unit. But be careful ascribing dodgy intentions to people, sometimes they are just bad guesses.

T10
16-09-2009, 07:18
The rules for stone throwers were different in 6th edition in this regard.

Indeed. Stone Throwers are targeted at a specific model, not just fired haphazardly in an arbitrary direction.

That being said, the guess range weapons are in need of some sort of balancing mechanic that rewards the player for making a "good" guess. Off the top of my head: Missing the intended target by more than 10 inches (maximum scatter range) when guessing the range from a stone thrower could result in an automatic miss (the shot hits nothing) and guessing dead on target could result in an automatic hit.

-T10

Ikhoornix
16-09-2009, 07:23
In my opinion he is clearly "cheating" in order to try to get a shot at teclis.

You could have kindly reminded him that his guess is more than the starting distance between your armies (or deployment zones) while the unit he is supposedly aiming at is much closer than this.

Adran
16-09-2009, 07:34
You could always try asking him if he was really trying to hit the sword masters and not Teclis, could he target the far end of the swordmasters so the line went no-where near Teclis.
If he is really does think the guess will hit the sword masters, then he shouldn't object.

Condottiere
16-09-2009, 08:49
If Sword Masters are by their lonesome, he'd be targetting the middle of their formation.

The Red Scourge
16-09-2009, 09:05
You could always try asking him if he was really trying to hit the sword masters and not Teclis, could he target the far end of the swordmasters so the line went no-where near Teclis.
If he is really does think the guess will hit the sword masters, then he shouldn't object.


If Sword Masters are by their lonesome, he'd be targetting the middle of their formation.

No point in arguing like this, when the bloke obviously cares less about sportsmanship than winning. Either you accept it, or you just pack up your stuff and walk away :)

nosferatu1001
16-09-2009, 11:29
...or in a Tournament get a referee to come over and explain the concept to him. Normally a "first offence" punishment is along the lines of - that shot is forfeit. Depending on how much they argue of course, if they're stupid it can result in forfeiting the game. Although that would require epic levels of idiocy....

EvC
16-09-2009, 11:45
...and if not in a tournament, you can just tell him what you think of his dirty tactics, kick up a fuss and refuse to play against such a cad in the future.

Enigmatik1
16-09-2009, 12:32
Indeed. Stone Throwers are targeted at a specific model, not just fired haphazardly in an arbitrary direction.

That being said, the guess range weapons are in need of some sort of balancing mechanic that rewards the player for making a "good" guess. Off the top of my head: Missing the intended target by more than 10 inches (maximum scatter range) when guessing the range from a stone thrower could result in an automatic miss (the shot hits nothing) and guessing dead on target could result in an automatic hit.

-T10

My gaming group would hate that rule. I'm fairly good at putting my template on top of something of theirs. So far their saving grace vs. the dreaded SSC has been the artillery and scatter dice not liking me very much. Oh how I would love to not have to pick those damned things up. Evil, I say...EVIL! :skull:

narrativium
16-09-2009, 12:42
I'd be okay with the first part of that mechanic, though - where if the declared target is missed by more than 10" (and perhaps the impacted unit is out of sight), the shot is simply declared a miss.

The system already rewards spot-on guesswork: the weapon gets to hit things!

Condottiere
16-09-2009, 14:25
The real joy of watching scattered dice is when it lands on the attacking player's troops.

nosferatu1001
16-09-2009, 14:31
...and if not in a tournament, you can just tell him what you think of his dirty tactics, kick up a fuss and refuse to play against such a cad in the future.

Especially as they clearly knew what they were doing here: they placed the shot right on Teclis and then claimed "they were being accurate" at hitting the SM.

Good use of "cad" by the way!

narrativium
16-09-2009, 14:38
The real joy of watching scattered dice is when it lands on the attacking player's troops.
Made even more joyous when it's a Scraplauncher which has rolled that result on its misfire table, and the opponent gets to fire the shot instead.

Enigmatik1
16-09-2009, 16:03
The system already rewards spot-on guesswork: the weapon gets to hit things!

Not nearly enough imo. I've gotta take my easy wounds when I can get them. :p

There's nothing worse than being able to place that small template square in the middle of a fully ranked and annoying unit only to have it scatter 10" to the left into empty trees! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Highlander
16-09-2009, 20:52
Thank you people.
I agree that overguess is cheating, tought, i wished listen another opinion from you that have a comunity much bigger than us here.

We will make a house rules to concern about overguess now.

Dark Aly
18-09-2009, 10:03
i believe that stone throwers and their ilk do not need line of sight in the first place. you can deploy one behind a hill so that it can't see jack (or be seen) and still fire. then again this may have been a previous edition as i'm getting confused now (been playing the last 4 editions).

however over guessing with weapons which do require line of sight (assuming i'm right about the above) eg cannons, is bad sportsmanship and i personally never do that (just as side i think it unfair to use cannons as snipers too).

nosferatu1001
18-09-2009, 10:28
You are confused - p85 states that War Machines "normally" require LOS, and the Stone Thrower rules do not state otherwidse (in fact they give you a reminder that you must be able to see)

After all how do you fire something behind a hill at anywhere in particular? Unless you've done plenty of ranging shots you have no idea where things are going to go!

theweck
18-09-2009, 12:24
As far as the sanctions go for malicious overguessing are concerned though, how do we protect the relatively new guy who simply is bad at distances. I know personally, I have given up on stone throwers due to my inability to guess well. I have simply moved on to a fleet of spear chukkas. Anyhow, how does one go about establishing the requisite intent behind the crime of overguessing with intent to kill Teclis?

nosferatu1001
18-09-2009, 12:39
Well, you know the board is 48" wide, and you should be able to judge roughly a quarter of that. instead this person guessed 3/4 of the board width and exactly hit Teclis on his head.

Conclusion: not a newb but a cheater.

Its fairly easy to spot someone new to guessing, and would not make such a stupid mistake as this!

Highlander
18-09-2009, 13:43
I complete agree with you Nosferatus. And he is not a beginner, he plays warhamer for a long time, and the fact occurs on the last round, all others just one he left, because he was very unluck on dices.

Sherlocko
18-09-2009, 14:01
As far as the sanctions go for malicious overguessing are concerned though, how do we protect the relatively new guy who simply is bad at distances. I know personally, I have given up on stone throwers due to my inability to guess well. I have simply moved on to a fleet of spear chukkas. Anyhow, how does one go about establishing the requisite intent behind the crime of overguessing with intent to kill Teclis?

If facing an obvious unintentional overguesss, would it be wrong to just ask your opponent if he felt okay if he could just place the template and perhaps scatter it d3-1" further or back?

nosferatu1001
18-09-2009, 14:07
Yes it would be wrong, as unintentional overguessing is not cheating, it is a mistake.

It is the same with declaring an out of range charge: either it is a clear attempt at cheating (e.g. by making a WLC cannon flee when youre 24" away at the start of the game) or it is an honest mistake. It is something you can't really determine unless you are in the game...

Skyth
18-09-2009, 23:46
Nothing wrong with it and it should be encouraged.

First off, someone using Teclis against O&G deserves anything he gets.

Plus, if you're an idiot and don't put him in a unit, he deserves to die also.

nosferatu1001
19-09-2009, 02:03
Skyth - what part of it's cheating did you not get? As for Teclis maybe the person didnt know they were playing O&G....

Deliberately "over guessing" to land it dead on the head of something entirely out of LOS is cheating. Exactly the same as declaring charges you know will fail.

If it was 2inches, maybe. But 21"? Do you really think that is ok, or even close to the "spirit"?

Skyth
19-09-2009, 02:17
I don't consider it cheating. The opponent made a bad move and paid the price.

nosferatu1001
19-09-2009, 02:33
The rules and everyone else disagree with you.

I take it you ignore the requirement for things to be in LOS as well? After all, that is as legal as deliberately tripling the distance you "guess" to exactly land it on the head of a unit you cannot see.

Drachen_Jager
19-09-2009, 02:36
Skyth, if I'm playing against you and I decide to re-roll whatever dice I want whenever I want even though there's no rule that says I can is that cheating or being clever in your books? How far would someone have to go to "cheat" in your world, since apparently ignoring the rules doesn't count.

rtunian
19-09-2009, 02:43
p9, interposing models - "troops, either friendly or unfriendly block line of sight"
p26, line of sight - "remember that models and terrain block line of sight"
p85, shooting - "normally, the controlling player must be able to draw a line of sight to the target from the machine itself"

skyth, you might house rule 40k-style blind fire, but wfb by default, as written clearly in many places in the rule book, does not support blind fire. whether or not you personally think it's okay to do it is totally irrelevant to whether it is legal or whether it is cheating.

Skyth
19-09-2009, 04:15
It's only cheating if you ignore the rules...The rules require you to declare a target (The swordmaster) and declare a range for the shot. If that shot will hit something else that is more valuable, good for you. In no way is it cheating. The argument against it basically boils down to 'I don't like what the rules actually say so I'm going to accuse anyone who actually plays by them of being a bad person'.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-09-2009, 08:05
It's only cheating if you ignore the rules...And now, you're about to do exactly that:


The rules require you to declare a target (The swordmaster) and declare a range for the shot.No, you're required to guess the distance to the target you've just declared. You're not allowed to guess the distance to something else. That's against the rules, and therefore cheating. The rules say: "...try to guess the range as accurately as possible."


The argument against it basically boils down to 'I don't like what the rules actually say so I'm going to accuse anyone who actually plays by them of being a bad person'.You're the one ignoring the rules. They've been pointed out to you several times, and you're still obtusely ignoring them.

rtunian
19-09-2009, 13:46
You're the one ignoring the rules. They've been pointed out to you several times, and you're still obtusely ignoring them.

hence, troll.

Skyth
19-09-2009, 15:25
You're the one ignoring the rules. They've been pointed out to you several times, and you're still obtusely ignoring them.

Actually, I'm ignoring what people WANT the rules to say, not what they actually say.


The rules say to pick out a target model that is in LOS, Turn the artillery piece to face that target, then say the range that you want the shot to go.

If the shot will hit something else, that's not prohibited by the rules.

narrativium
19-09-2009, 15:40
True. The rules allow you to do that. It's still considered cheating, as established in the FAQs, but there isn't a game mechanic to prevent it.

rtunian
19-09-2009, 16:39
no, the rules do not allow you to do that.

the rules say that you have to target something in your line of sight.

if you intentionally overguess so that you can hit a target that is not in your line of sight, you are not targetting something that is in your line of sight are you?

just because you verbalize that your target is the swordmasters, does not mean that your actual target is the swordmasters. it means that you are lying to your opponent on which target you are aiming for. you know what you are aiming for... teclis. you knew it when you overguessed the distance by 21", the exact distance to teclis.

just because you say the word "swordmasters" doesn't mean that's your target.
what you personally are aiming for and hoping to hit is your target.

so in addition to cheating by targetting something out of los, you are lying to your opponent about what you are targetting, hoping that you can pull a fast one on him.

and why are you OK with this skyth?
because the opponent fielded a 100% legal special character that you don't like?

classy. real classy.

nosferatu1001
19-09-2009, 18:01
100% agree with above: it mainly seems to be "Teclis vs O&G? How dare you!!" more than "I truly think this is legal"....

Condottiere
19-09-2009, 18:13
Actually, I'm ignoring what people WANT the rules to say, not what they actually say.


The rules say to pick out a target model that is in LOS, Turn the artillery piece to face that target, then say the range that you want the shot to go.

If the shot will hit something else, that's not prohibited by the rules.

Even if you don't consider it cheating, would you consider it sporting?

Nurgling Chieftain
19-09-2009, 19:51
The rules say: "...try to guess the range as accurately as possible."
Actually, I'm ignoring what people WANT the rules to say, not what they actually say.The ACTUAL rule, as I've quoted above, says you're wrong.

Chipacabra
19-09-2009, 23:36
In a tournament situation, the director should look harshly on intentional overguessing, and treat it the same way he would any form of cheating.

In a casual game, where you just want to get past the situation and play the rest of the game, it's a little trickier. One possibility is to suggest a guess of your own, and use whichever guess is closer to the target. This method doesn't work very well with cannon/doom diver mechanic, though.

Alcibiades
19-09-2009, 23:43
Actually, I'm ignoring what people WANT the rules to say, not what they actually say.

The rules say to pick out a target model that is in LOS, Turn the artillery piece to face that target, then say the range that you want the shot to go.

If the shot will hit something else, that's not prohibited by the rules.

No, you're ignoring what the rules actually say in preference to what you want them to say. The rules state that you're supposed to guess as accurately as possible (BRB, p.92, about halfway down the left-hand column). Guessing something that is intentionally inaccurate is as illegal as any other failure to follow the rules, it's just (perhaps) a little harder to prove.

As far as your concern about someone using Teclis against an O&G list, you should read this guy's post. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3912594#post3912594) He makes a lot of sense, with that whole two wrongs not making a right.

rtunian
20-09-2009, 02:18
As far as your concern about someone using Teclis against an O&G list, you should read this guy's post. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3912594#post3912594) He makes a lot of sense, with that whole two wrongs not making a right.

oh you're good :skull:

Skyth
20-09-2009, 03:19
The designated target only determines the direction of the shot.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-09-2009, 03:23
As I've quoted several times, the rules say you're wrong, and making up new rules to suit your purpose won't change that.

Condottiere
20-09-2009, 08:42
You have to bear in mind the level of technology involved and probable fire control, being basically none.

The artillerists want to hit something they know is there, they have no idea what's behind something blocking the LoS. There are no Forward Observers.

Harwammer
20-09-2009, 08:57
The designated target only determines the direction of the shot.

The rules say you are also meant to guess the distance between the machine and its target.

Clearly the designated target effects more than just the direction of the shot; it also determines the distance (your most accurate possible guess).

xragg
21-09-2009, 01:46
"...the target has to be visible from the machine itself... Then declare how far the rock is to be fired. Do this (declare) without measuring the distance to that target, so try to guess the range as accurately as possible. "

The target you are guessing range for has to be the same target you are pivoting the shot towards. It doesnt state "a target". It specifically states "that target" which you nominated already.

Skyth
21-09-2009, 14:10
And, again, you guys are putting in rules that aren't there.

According to the stone thrower rules, the steps are:

1) Pivot stone thrower so it is pointing in the direction of the model it is going to fire against.

2) Declare which enemy model is going to be the target (...has to be visible from the machine itself)

3) Declare how far the rock is to be fired ...Do without measuring the distance to that target.

So Swordmaster target is 15" away, Teclis is 25" away.

1)I pivot the machine to face the Swordmaster

2)I declare the Swordmaster to be the target

3)I do not measure the distance to the Swordmaster.

4)I declare the rock is to be fired 25"

This breaks NO rules. There is no rule that says the declared distance must be able to hit the declared target.

nosferatu1001
21-09-2009, 14:20
Except you are told to make your guess as accurately as possible.

Guessing 36" when your target is 12" away is not guessing as accurately as possible, and you are therefore cheating.

See the FAQ where declaring charges you know not to be in range is cheating. Doing something contrary to what you are explicitly told to do is the definition of cheating.

Skyth
21-09-2009, 14:52
But the guess WAS accurate. You are not told to guess the range to the target, just not to measure the range to the target.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 15:11
I recall someone describing to me the distinction between accurate and precise. Picture someone using a bow and arrow in a firing range. Two targets are in front of him, but his row in the range means he aims for the one on the left.

He fires two shots. One impacts in the outer ring of the correct target, the one to the left. This shot is more accurate. The other arrives dead-centre in the target on the right. This shot is more precise.

The objective is to make the most accurate guess, i.e. to be closest to the declared target. If you're declaring one target, and declaring a range to a different target, that's not accurate.

nosferatu1001
21-09-2009, 15:21
No, it was not accurate: you are told to guess rnage, context states that this must be to the target otherwise you are not guessing range, you are stating a distance. Slight difference.

By guessing to something other than the target, you are not guessing the range.

The rules still dont agree with you.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 15:36
Also, there are rules regarding the declared distance: the range of the stone-thrower, typically 12-60".

Let's throw up a new scenario. The rare underguess cheat.

We're playing on a big board, there's a unit of troops 80" from the stone thrower, visible in a long line. In front of the unit, a mere 60" from the stone thrower, is a character model in range. However, the character is also just behind the corner of a house and cannot be seen from the stone thrower.

Can the stone thrower's player declare the far unit as a target, knowing full well it's completely out of range for the weapon even with scatter, aim towards a model in the far visible unit just visible past the corner of the house where the character is, and declare 60", hoping the template will catch the untargetable character?

Skyth
21-09-2009, 15:50
No, it was not accurate: you are told to guess rnage, context states that this must be to the target otherwise you are not guessing range, you are stating a distance. Slight difference.

By guessing to something other than the target, you are not guessing the range.

The rules still dont agree with you.


Funny, the rules do INDEED tell you to declare a distance.

Why you may be inferring context, that you must guess the range to the target is not actually stated in the rules.

And if it goes where I want it to, the distance is INDEED accurate.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 16:24
But it's not going where you want it to. It missed the target. It went straight past the target and hit something else!

nosferatu1001
21-09-2009, 17:15
Funny, the rules do INDEED tell you to declare a distance.

Why you may be inferring context, that you must guess the range to the target is not actually stated in the rules.

And if it goes where I want it to, the distance is INDEED accurate.

They tell you to guess range as accurately as possible

Not distance. Range. Range only has one meaning here - to a target.

"the distance of the target from the weapon." is the appropriate definition of range in this context.

The only target you are allowed to declare is the unit in LOS, therefore the range you are required to guess is ot the target you declared.

You are still cheating if you do not do this as accurately as possible.

rtunian
21-09-2009, 18:02
stop feeding the troll

nosferatu1001
21-09-2009, 18:43
Thats my last post on it - if you cannot get that range is distance to target, well I'm glad I'll never play someone who cheats that aggregiously.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 18:47
I thought it was the opposite, actually. The range is how far the weapon can fire, and that's specified in the rulebook anyway so there's no point in guessing it ("Can it fire 17-95 inches?" "I'll check the book. Nope, doesn't say that. Can't fire this turn." "Bugger." "Better luck next turn, mate."). The distance is how far it is to the target, which is the unit declared to be the target, cos that's the unit the stone thrower crew can see and are firing at, so the distance is within the bounds of the range of the weapon.

burad
21-09-2009, 19:26
Never been in the military, have you?

What's the range to the target?
Laser rangefinder.
Ranging shot.
Range is 2500 meters.

Range is both a description of how far something can shoot and how far it is to whatever is being shot.
Distance is typically only use with the term 'miss'. As in miss distance.
When you are estimating how far it if from the shooter to the target, it is called estimating range. It's not called estimating distance.

I'd be in favor of rules that said you have to guess within a scatter die distance of the true range to the target, and the distance measured and angle of shot has to be to the closest visible point of the target unit. Anything outside of that is a lost shot and doesn't hit anything. That would help fix this intentional overguessing.

Nurgling Chieftain
21-09-2009, 19:34
But the guess WAS accurate. You are not told to guess the range to the target, just not to measure the range to the target.Stop pretending that words mean something other than what they mean.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 19:45
Never been in the military, have you? True. I'm also accidentally thinking of only one use of the word range - the general shooting definition, as in, "is the target in range?". If it's not in range, it can't be shot at, but the specific distance doesn't matter.

So, quite right. I consider myself corrected.

Alcibiades
21-09-2009, 21:23
I'd be in favor of rules that said you have to guess within a scatter die distance of the true range to the target, and the distance measured and angle of shot has to be to the closest visible point of the target unit. Anything outside of that is a lost shot and doesn't hit anything. That would help fix this intentional overguessing.

This is a fairly decent rule, with the exception of the angle: trying to aim at the back edge of a unit in a horde of units is fine: I've no problem with someone aiming a stonethrower into the general mass of units.

narrativium
21-09-2009, 21:56
Alcibiades: sure. So long as the declared target has a reasonable chance of being hit, I don't have a problem with aiming a nudge past it to catch units which might be immediately behind or to the side, and thus maximise the chance of a scatter hitting something (even though a direct hit may then hit nothing). And most players here have agreed that if Teclis was a few inches behind the target unit, then that's okay.

I suppose the other issue is the following: let's say there's a unit, ranks five across, in front of Teclis. I'm picking out one specific model in the unit, as a means of specifying the direction, before guessing the range to that model. The stone thrower crew have no way of knowing which file Teclis is standing behind, as they can't see him. So the player shouldn't really be able to specify the model to fire at, on the basis of hoping for a few inches overguessing will hit him. Should the rules change to specify the centre of the visible models of the unit, to avoid trick-shot precision to hit models not in the unit?

Condottiere
22-09-2009, 07:15
I do a lot of cannon sniping, I can deliberately overguess to get at a model behind one blocking LoS, I don't because it seems unrealistic.

It's not specifically against the rules, since you may just have bad eyesight and a poor understanding of spatial relationships, but even 21" is hard to swallow.

nosferatu1001
22-09-2009, 09:07
It is strictly against the rules (see the FAQ answers on cheating) however the test is very subjective, as it has to be.

Newbie players get some leeway. Experienced ones who "accurately" "guess" right onto the head of something 3 times fruther away are cheating, strictly. Having seen people get thrown out of tournies before (admittedly, were then idiots about it when the Ref got called) for doing exactly this style of "overguessing" it is certainly unacceptable.

Harwammer
23-09-2009, 07:18
And, again, you guys are putting in rules that aren't there.


Nope.

The rules say you are also meant to guess the distance between the machine and its target. p85

So as I said previously the designated target effects the direction of the shot and it determines determines the distance (your most accurate possible guess) p92.

ATozz
29-09-2009, 21:44
This is a quote from the BRB, page 92 third paragraph:
"Then declare how far the rock is to be fired - this can be any number of inches between a minimum of 12" and the maximum range of the stone thrower (normally 60")."

"this can be any number of inches" says it all.

Intentional over-guessing with artillery has been around for a very long time and still there's no mention of it being illegal in the 7th ed BRB or any FAQ, it's unlikely to have been unintentionally left out. This is arguably one of the most well known flaws of the game, but as long as you and your opponent agree there's nothing keeping you from making changes to the rules as you see fit.

narrativium
29-09-2009, 22:27
ATozz: You missed "so try to guess as accurately as possible". Why?

ATozz
29-09-2009, 23:11
ATozz: You missed "so try to guess as accurately as possible". Why?
That clause is part of this sentence:
"Do this without measuring the distance to that target, so try to guess the range as accurately as possible."

It's a subordinate clause. Without the main clause you can't draw any conclusions from it. In this case the sub-clause means to say that since you're not allowed to measure you should try to guess the distance as good as you can.

narrativium
29-09-2009, 23:37
Sure, but isn't it implicit in that statement that if you're stating a range for a completely different unit - one the firing unit can't see, much less target - that you're not following the rule "try to guess the range as accurately as possible"?

Let's say we go bowling. You throw the ball and it lands, not in the lane we're playing in, or the one adjacent to it, but the one next to that, and knocks down all ten pins. Do you expect the system to score you for getting a strike?

wena
30-09-2009, 00:45
I have believe in the future should I encounter this I will allow the opposing player to indicate exactly how far they want to be from the targetted unit (assuming cannon most likely 4 - 8 inches in front) and stone thrower 2 inches from any model and let them have the scatter roll. This would prevent sniping and though it would allow for a great degree of accuracy most of the people I play against are accurate within 2" anyways.

This in my opinion would prevent the sniping and still allow for the random dice throw to go in my favor. Not by the rules but Iwould insist on this in a tournament where I found obvious cheating to be occuring...

Thoughts?

ATozz
30-09-2009, 00:59
Sure, but isn't it implicit in that statement that if you're stating a range for a completely different unit - one the firing unit can't see, much less target - that you're not following the rule "try to guess the range as accurately as possible"?
You could interpret the statement either like that or as that you're not allowed to measure before you guess (which isn't mentioned previously) or as both. However, the failure to clearly express the legitimacy of over-guessing anywhere in the BRB simply implies that there's nothing wrong with it, it's in fact approved of because you have to over-guess by at least 1.5" to land a nice hit like the one on page 93 of BRB (you can't draw LOS to a model in the middle of a unit). Some players take this to an extreme and that's why it's considered a flaw.



Let's say we go bowling. You throw the ball and it lands, not in the lane we're playing in, or the one adjacent to it, but the one next to that, and knocks down all ten pins. Do you expect the system to score you for getting a strike?Lets stick to the topic. ;)

rtunian
30-09-2009, 01:43
This is a quote from the BRB, page 92 third paragraph:
"Then declare how far the rock is to be fired - this can be any number of inches between a minimum of 12" and the maximum range of the stone thrower (normally 60")."

"this can be any number of inches" says it all.

Intentional over-guessing with artillery has been around for a very long time and still there's no mention of it being illegal in the 7th ed BRB or any FAQ, it's unlikely to have been unintentionally left out. This is arguably one of the most well known flaws of the game, but as long as you and your opponent agree there's nothing keeping you from making changes to the rules as you see fit.

did you miss the sentence before the sentence you quoted?
"declare which enemy model is going to be the target (remember, the target has to be visible from the machine itself)"

you have to have line of sight to the target. the range you guess is the range to your target. as i said before, you know what you are aiming for when you guess. if you say your target is the swordmasters, but you guess the range for teclis, you are guessing the range to a target that you do not have line of sight to, hence not a legal guess.

and your opponent won't necessarily know that you've cheated him. how can he know that you really intended to hit teclis and not the swordmasters, as you stated? he can guess by your behavior, possibly, or conclude from your guessing precisely the distance to teclis... but he can't know. you can deny deny deny and perhaps even get away with it. that doesn't make it legal

the rules are clear, you can't shoot at something if you don't have line of sight to it.

burad
30-09-2009, 02:49
I'd be in favor of a compromise that says all guesses have to be within 10" if the nearest visible point of the target. If you are guessing more than 10" from the nearest visible point of the target, you are obviously intending to cheat, firing at something you cannot see.

I'd additionally be in favor of a rule that says if you guess more than 10" from the nearest visible point of the designated target, it's an automatic lost shot and misses everything.

Nobody actually firing a stone thrower, as primitive as it is, is that stupid to 'miss' by as much as was described in the original story. It's clearly an interpretation of an insufficiently well worded rule, designed to cheat by allowing you to aim (by incorrectly 'guessing') at things you cannot see.

As such, the easiest fix to the rules might be to say that the stone can only hit targets that are within sight of the stone thrower. Anything else is a lost shot that misses everything.

WLBjork
30-09-2009, 06:43
Indeed, with respect to overguessing I'll add that the Stone Thrower last edition (6th) was specifically allowed to overguess.

Now in 7th edition, that ability has been removed.

You must declare a target and make a reasonable guess as to the range to it.


This is where cannons have the advantage, as a potential 10" "extra charge" plus 10" bounce means it can hit models past it's intended target even with a perfect guess (that is, 4"-8" short of the target).

TheDarkDaff
30-09-2009, 10:01
As such, the easiest fix to the rules might be to say that the stone can only hit targets that are within sight of the stone thrower. Anything else is a lost shot that misses everything.

The problem i have with this is it can punish people who make a good guess by get a bad scatter. I personally prefer to look at each shot on it's merit and make a judgement call on it. The simplest fix is to not play someone who overguesses. It is specifically against the rules so why bother to play someone who obviously has no integrity. You will just spend the entire game guessing if you can trust anything they say.

The rule tell you to declare your target, guess the range and make your best guess to hit the target. I don't mind if people aim to a side of the target to increase the chance of a good scatter result but overguessing is just off.

On a side note my war machines are almost always deployed on a hill so overguessing doesn't really ever come into it unless fast cav, scouts or fliers get in front of them in which case i can only blame myself for letting the support unit block LoS

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 10:09
Cheat

v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base

I found definition number four interesting.

PeG
30-09-2009, 10:39
We have a house rule that we believe fixes this problem. After the artillery dice have been rolled but before the scatter/bounce dice is being rolled the targeted player (in this case the HE player) can allow a perfect hit (in this case the cannon ball would land on the head of the targeted swordmaster).

This allows the targeted player to avoid getting hit by overguessing etc and the player with the cannon cant really complain as he is getting a good hit on the intended target (at least the target he said he was aiming for). Doing this before the bounce/scatter allows some degree of random outcome and none of the players can be sure of which choice is the correct until all dice have been rolled. For example the bounce may still allow a unit behind the first to get hit if the roll is high or a no bounce result will kill a swordmaster while the overguessed shot might not have hit anything etc.

PeG
30-09-2009, 10:42
On a side note my war machines are almost always deployed on a hill so overguessing doesn't really ever come into it unless fast cav, scouts or fliers get in front of them in which case i can only blame myself for letting the support unit block LoS

For some reason there are always hills in the deployement zone of people who likes guns.......

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 10:48
You'd be surprised how many battlefields have hills in opposing corners.

narrativium
30-09-2009, 10:55
GW modular terrain - hills in four pieces - mean you'll find a few battlefields like that at Warhammer World, too.

AndrewGPaul
30-09-2009, 11:07
The only reasonable house rule I've seen to combat abuses like this is to stop playing against dicks. :)

nosferatu1001
30-09-2009, 11:35
Easiest way to combat hills in deplloyment zones is to put trees on top of the hills.

Perfectly fine in the deploying terrain rules.

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 11:52
You know that you still can have a gun barrel sticking out of a forest?

nosferatu1001
30-09-2009, 12:22
Yes, however it's ability to get good lanes of fire to the flanks (if it is in the centre) or to the centre (if pointing at a flank) is limited due to the 2" LOS blocking.

It doesnt entirely stop it, but makes it much harder to get overlapping fields of fire.

kramplarv
30-09-2009, 12:22
best houserule for hills are;

"no hills in deployment zone. "

Condottiere
30-09-2009, 12:29
Yes, however it's ability to get good lanes of fire to the flanks (if it is in the centre) or to the centre (if pointing at a flank) is limited due to the 2" LOS blocking.

It doesnt entirely stop it, but makes it much harder to get overlapping fields of fire.Stick it in the corner closest to the centre, that's usually around 180 degrees LoS, sufficient to cover most approaches.

nosferatu1001
30-09-2009, 12:56
SO you've got one warmachine down - the rest will struggle not to be blocked.

And then on your next drop there are trees in front of the hill, which hills cannot see over.

ATozz
01-10-2009, 02:01
Indeed, with respect to overguessing I'll add that the Stone Thrower last edition (6th) was specifically allowed to overguess.

Now in 7th edition, that ability has been removed.
That's not true. The 6th ed. stone throwers didn't need LOS to their target.
There's no restriction nor has there ever been one on how far a stone thrower is allowed to guess (within the min/max range).

narrativium
01-10-2009, 11:16
True, only a guideline that you should aim as accurately as possible, and an underlying assumption that players are trying to hit the target they declare, because it's a game and everyone's being sportsmanlike.

There's also technically no restriction on declaring a charge against a unit which is clearly out of range, allowing a unit to deliberately fail a charge and thus allow movement of other units, but that example has been declared as cheating in the FAQs.

I don't see much distinction in the case of stone throwers - you're declaring an attack, and deliberately sabotaging that attack to ensure it fails (the charged unit cannot be reached, the targeted unit cannot be hit), for an alternative advantage. Such behaviour cannot be RAI, and by ignoring the rule for stone throwers to guess as accurately as possible, it is not RAW either.

nosferatu1001
01-10-2009, 11:50
There's no restriction nor has there ever been one on how far a stone thrower is allowed to guess (within the min/max range).

Except the rule stating you have to acccurately guess the range? "Range" has the clearest dictionary meaning from context here of "distance to the target" so if you are not guessing the distance to the target, you have broken the rules and thus are cheating.

I take it you missed the previous pages where this was already explained to one poster?

wilsongrahams
06-10-2009, 08:55
I have always disliked range guessing in a wargame, as once the first shot is out of the way it's a simple case of remembering where the target was against the tape measure and then deducting it's movement each turn.

I'd say that the better method is to place the template directly over the target unit and then roll the artillery dice for scatter, either in a random direction or forwards or backwards in a straight line depending whether it is a catapult or a cannon etc.

Beardy range guessing and cheating was covered in White Dwarf a few months back wasn't it?

nosferatu1001
06-10-2009, 10:18
They covered using Pythagorean theorem to help determine the distance to targets when you are at an angle, although most people would probably complain if you used a calculator as well ;)

There's a reason it was removed from 40K: ther are better mechanics to use than guess ranges. When my friend can get to within 1" in 180" (Basilisk firing during a series of linked games) it is really fairly pointless and onlyh hurst newbies.

Dareus
06-10-2009, 10:30
They covered using Pythagorean theorem to help determine the distance to targets when you are at an angle, although most people would probably complain if you used a calculator as well ;)

There's a reason it was removed from 40K: ther are better mechanics to use than guess ranges. When my friend can get to within 1" in 180" (Basilisk firing during a series of linked games) it is really fairly pointless and onlyh hurst newbies.

Well... 40K isn't exactly a good example of better mechanics. On the other hand you didn't say that those better mechanics had been introduced in 40K ;).

nosferatu1001
06-10-2009, 13:19
Well the new mechanic is measure to the target, if in range then you place the blast where you want them - and measure again, to check you haven't gone over this max range.

It's a much better mechanic, 40k IS full of them - key one being ht emissions are much much better.

TheDarkDaff
06-10-2009, 13:49
Well the new mechanic is measure to the target, if in range then you place the blast where you want them - and measure again, to check you haven't gone over this max range.

It's a much better mechanic, 40k IS full of them - key one being ht emissions are much much better.

That would be much better. Something like :
1 - Declare target
2 - Check range
3 - If out of range ignore shot, if in range place template over target unit
4 - Scatter as usual

Cannons could go something like
1 - Declare Target and place a marker in LoS and in front of the target unit
2 - Roll Artillery die and move marker that many inches forward
3 - Roll for bounce as normal.

If you wanted to make cannon more realistic you could even make them scatter then bounce (this would remove cannon sniping too) but to make that fair you would have to scale the scatter result based on the range of the initial marker placement. I might give these a try to see how they work in a couple months when i am back home with my regular gaming group.

Dareus
06-10-2009, 14:18
Ok. While I agree that overguessing might be a problem in a certain gaming environment I don't think that removing characteristic rules or replacing them by simple dice-rolling makes a game better. I also don't want to hijack this thread into WFB vs. 40K, but I think that WFB actually is a better game because of these characteristic mechanics. Actually the more 40K gets skeltonised the less I'm feeling urged to get my Guard back in service.

TheDarkDaff
06-10-2009, 14:32
Ok. While I agree that overguessing might be a problem in a certain gaming environment I don't think that removing characteristic rules or replacing them by simple dice-rolling makes a game better. I also don't want to hijack this thread into WFB vs. 40K, but I think that WFB actually is a better game because of these characteristic mechanics. Actually the more 40K gets skeltonised the less I'm feeling urged to get my Guard back in service.

I agree that Fantasy is a better game (the best 40k version is still 2nd Ed.) if you play with sporting people (in which case overguessing will never occur). It is just unfortunate that you don't seem to find that very often these days.

Atrahasis
06-10-2009, 14:59
And then on your next drop there are trees in front of the hill, which hills cannot see over.Why not? I think you need to reread the rules for terrain.

EvC
06-10-2009, 15:07
Ignoring the fact that convention is to ignore the terrain rules and play "infinite height" terrain, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a hill that has a crest higher than the highest tree of any forest.