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the gribbly
16-09-2009, 00:27
Opinions needed. Does this feel to nasty for semi competative play? Note that my group is warming to special characters but still frown upon the real uber ones such as teclis, settra, etc. Heres the list:

Archmage lvl4
s.wand, ring of fury, scroll

Mage lvl1
Jewel of the dusk, scroll

Caradryan

Noble, BsB
GW, da, sh, radiant gem of hoeth

10 archers
15 spear elves, std, musician, warbanner

18 phoenix guard, fc, banner of sorcery, GoC (bsb+caradryan)
11 swordmasters, bladelord, ToL (archmage here)
10 swordmasters, bladelord (mage here)
5 dragon princes

2 RBTs
2 great eagles

Total- 2250
P- 10-12 + 1 bound
D- 6 + 2 scrolls (and +1 to dispel)

Time of Madness
16-09-2009, 00:41
Ok here's a few pointers for you.

I'd re-arrange the items on the characters a bit. Here's how I'd set up the mages.

- Level 4 with jewel of dusk, ring of fury and scroll (or you can swap the scroll for something else)

- Level 2 with silver wand and 2 scrolls

Bump the level 1 up to a level 2. And drop the gem of hoeth on the bsb. I'd arm him with the armour of caledor and guardian phoenix (make him tough to kill).

I'd also drop the 15 spearmen for 10 archers. The 15 spearmen aren't going to do anything for you as you already have enough infantry.

I'd be tempted to drop the 10 swordmasters for another unit of dragon princes. They are exactly the same point cost and another can unit would really help you out.
Time of Madnes

the gribbly
16-09-2009, 15:43
Thanks for the comments ToM. I actually really like the character setup as I get 2 combat characters in the PG unit, and access to 3 lores.
I realize at first glance it does not seem optimized, but this setup has been one of the best magic phases I have found. It allows the AM to take 5/6 metal spells while the other two casters take lore of light default vs vamps, metal vs WoC or even high magic for double drain magic, while still having an offensive magic phase. It also provides 6 dispel dice.
I realize the bsbs armor can be a problem but honestly it is rarely even tested as most RnF are dead before they can strike him. Against the nastier stuff ive found my usual standard kit, the AoC, to be insufficient a good deal of the time anyway. Time will tell if I prefer this guy to the trusty AoC + gw bsb but so far so good.

The spearmen are my constant headache. I like the models and want them to be good so I have been trying different setups to optimize their pts to game value. I see the greater benefit archers have but find the amount of room 2 archer units take up rather restrictive (im a WE player at heart). Still trying to find these guys niche in my gameplan. However, if they keep underperforming they will have to be shelved. What do you think of a unit of 10 simply to divert/claim table quads? Probly just a waste of 90 pts but may be better than wasting more? idk.

A second unit of dragon princes would definately make this list tougher but I am trying to roll with all (almost all) infantry, for now. But how would feel about dropping a swordmaster and the gem of courage to include the dragon horn?
Thanks for the comments. -grib

Bladelord
16-09-2009, 16:19
1 hero setup I used in a tournamet was:
Prince (150), great weapon (12), Armour of Caledor (25), Jewel of the Dusk (15), Radiant Gem of Hoeth.
Total: 247pts.
BSB (110), great weapon (8), heavy armour (4), Battle Banner (80).
Total: 202pts.
lvl.2 Mage (135), Silver Wand (10), Ring of Fury (40).
Total: 185pts.
lvl.2 Mage (135), the Seerstaff of Saphery (30).
Total: 165pts.

Total: 799pts.

Took Metal with my Prince almost every game & he generated enough PD on his own to always be able to snipe 1 wound every turn.
The BSB surprisingly just died 2 out of 5 games, he even killed a Dwarf Thane BSB with
3+ save re-roll 4 str 6 atks, without taking a single hit (ASF ftw :)).
You should try it out sometime if you want a heavy magic phase & still have 2 combat characters.

In your list I would upg the lvl1 mage to lvl2 & give him silver wand+ring of fury & give your AM Jewel of the Dusk & maybe Talisman of Saphery+Folariath's Robe for survivability but itīs up to you;)

Tzeentch Lord X7
19-09-2009, 15:45
Never put your archmage in a swordmaster unit you want him to suvive the whole game and sword master are the number one priority for the first and second turn of shooting and magic. You should put the arch mage in the phoenix guard unit and the bsb in the sword master unit.

Seabo
19-09-2009, 17:17
Pheonix Guard have a much higher survivability rate then Swordmasters...
Also the lack of any real heavy hitters could hurt you vs. some armies (think DE Beast army...*shudder*).

Desert Rain
19-09-2009, 20:32
The point of putting the archmage in the swordmasters is to protect him in combat. The swordmasters will most likely kill most of the enemy, which leaves the archmage safe. If you put him in the phoenix guard you might be a bit more resilient towards shooting, but you're mage will die very quickly if they end up in close combat.

Some comments on the list while I'm at it ;)

I would try to find the points for a second level on the mage, without it he isn't very useful in offence. To me 15 spearmen seems to be a bit to weak to deal with most things. I would either try to find points to increase their size, which can be hard, or drop them for some archers.

the gribbly
20-09-2009, 02:53
Thanks for the comments. So this must seem ok to you guys for semi-competative play right?

N0th1ng c4n b34t 3lv3s: Unusual character setup you provided but I think I prefer my own due to the lvl 4.

Seabo and tzeenchlord: I realize swordmasters are vulnerable to shooting and magic, but they are the best bunker against combat units as Desert Rain stated. IMO every unit in the HE list has a downside as a mage bunker, but I feel swordmasters suffer the least due to their multiple s5 asf attacks allowing them to actually be an offensive bunker. Also I dont like the idea of reducing the hitting power further on a unit like PG that only has 6 s4 attacks to begin with. The whole reason for the radiant gem bsb and caradryan is to increase hitting power in the PG unit with higher strength attacks and flaming, while adding one more dispel dice and access to a third lore.

As for heavy hitters I think this list is pretty decent (barring dragoncrutches), as 3 of my 4 elites have multiple s5 attacks with the fourth packing 2 characters. I will admit my early games with HEs have not been as stellar as my 200+ games with my WEs but I am enjoying them almost as much.

Desert Rain: I agree on the 2nd magic level and perhaps the spears (although they have recently started performing well as a flanking unit). I have made a few changes to the list:

Archmage lvl4
s.wand, ring of fury, 2 scrolls

Mage lvl2
Jewel of the dusk, dragon horn

Noble, BsB
GW, da, sh, radiant gem of hoeth

Caradryan

10 archers
10 archers

18 phoenix guard, fc, banner of sorcery, GoC (bsb+caradryan)
10 swordmasters, bladelord, ToL (archmage here)
10 swordmasters, bladelord, AoL (mage here)
5 dragon princes

2 RBTs
2 great eagles

Total- 2250
P- 11-13 + 1 bound
D- 6 + 2 scrolls (and +1 to dispel)

What do you think? We'll see how it performs in a couple days. Just fyi my regular weekly opponents are 2 x VCs 12+ PD, DE monster hvy, and Wizards of chaos.

Desert Rain
20-09-2009, 10:12
Looks much better than the old one. The Dragon Horn on the mage is a bit unusual, but there's nowhere else to place it so I guess than makes sense. I like the radiant gem BSB, it's nice to have that extra number 1 spell and dice.

the gribbly
20-09-2009, 13:44
Yes I am really liking the radiant gem BsB. Drain magic, or light/metal defaults are all pretty much must stops to suck dispel dice and he still adds punch to the PG unit. Against most units he and caradryan should be able to eliminate most incoming attacks and against the nastier stuff he will die but that will mean the monster/unit will probably lose combat as a result of allocating attacks. I will update this thread with battle results if anyone is interested in the lists performance.