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View Full Version : Dwarfes vs Shooty/Magic Gunline. Help?



Arguleon-veq
16-09-2009, 19:34
I am currently running a BatRep Blog for my Dwarfs on the BatRep board, my last game for them is going to be against Tomb Kings. My list runs;

Defensive Lord; 1+ Re Rollable, Great Wep.
Runesmith; Rune of Balance, 1+ Save [In combat]
Thane; BSB. 1+ Save.
Slayer;

Big Warrior Unit;
Hammerers;
2 Thunderer Units;
4 Bolt Throwers;
Organ Gun;
Gyro;

______________________

The list I am facing will be roughly;

High Priest; Fly + Other Stuff.
Priest; Casket + Other Stuff.
Priest; Stuff
Prince; Flail of Skulls.

3/4 Units of Archers; 1/2 Large Enough to reform and rank up.
Tomb Guard;
3 Scorps;
Catapult;
_______________________

Now Im just not sure how to go about this game. I have faced Tomb Kings quite a few times with my other forces and have never been confident in outshooting them so have took the fight to them and done well doing so. My Dwarfs will have a hard time reaching combat.

I cant really outshoot the enemy, they will replenish their ranks fairly easily with their magic and my army cant take 40+ Bows and 2 Cat Shots a turn. Plus there are the Scorps who can easily hunt my War Machines/Thunderers.
1 Scorp will no doubt stay back to protect his Cat from my Gyro/Miners.

So I am looking at walking through enemy fire for 5 turns for a last turn charge, against units I cant break..

My Thunderers/Organ will probably only get in range to fire on turn 4n if they are still alive.

Now I have been thinking of altering my list a little before this game, I would swap 2 Bolt Throwers for;

Runes of the Furnace on Characters.
Some weapon runes on Smith and BSB.
Cannon.

With that set up, at least I could hope to get some points by sniping the Liche off the Casket and maybe getting lucky with Look Out Sir to kill another character. Other than that Im stumped.

Any advice/suggestions or is it just one of those match ups where I will have to pray to the dice gods.

EDIT - Damn, will a Mod please change the title to 'Dwarfes vs TOMB KING Shooty/Magic Gunline.

Sirroelivan
16-09-2009, 20:19
Well, I don't know much of dwarfs, but a rune altar (or whatever it's called) would be very handy.

I find it odd though that you say that you can't outshoot TK. With a decent magic defense you'll be able to stop most of the unit replenishing you fear after all.

Malorian
16-09-2009, 20:28
The big problem will be the scorpions. Make sure you are set up so you can counter charge if one attacks your machines (one block facing backwards).

If you allowed to change your list then take a bunch of miners and an anvil and smash them from behind. Just make sure to guard the anvil from the scorps.

lcfr
16-09-2009, 20:44
Well I'll just assume that you can't alter your list radically to be more speedy/aggressive, 'cus that wouldn't be much fun would it :p

To be honest I think you can hella outshoot this force, the only real worry is the SSC. 80 arrows (assuming each unit of archers is 10strong and all incantations are successful) heading your way each turn should translated to about 26 hits and 8/9 unsaved wounds a turn, which will generally further be cut in half by regular heavy armour +shield. Plus there's only one SSC (which, arguably, represents the most pain)! I think that if you focus your firepower on the SSC w/your BTs immediately you can definitely wipe it out in a round of shooting. So even if your opponent nabs first turn and mauls some of your infantry blocks it shouldn't be a problem afterward.

Once the SSC goes down the only long range threat the TK can throw your way is the Casket, which is not too problematic for Dwarfs. So, you can either have a boring as hell game and just blast each other while you wait for the Scorpions to turn up or you can go out on a limb and do a long march...kinda crummy to be up against a TK gunline w/Dwarfs, not because things look grim for you (I don't believe they do) but because he's even slower than you and is pretty much resolved to not move.

If you are able to make some minor changes and are resolved on legging it over to the other side go for Strollaz's Rune. Your gyro will have to creep up, under cover, alongside your units, since it's vulnerable to even regular TK arrows. I'd also agree that a Cannon would be better than the 3rd and 4th BTs, and will increase your odds of demolishing the SSC early on and then picking off the Casket Priest. If anything you should be more worried about an extremely boring (or at least very irritating) game more than anything else.

PS. More of a rules query when it comes to the TK magic phase, but...whenever someone tells me not to take Enkhil's Kanopi (the TK arcane bound item that auto-dispels all Remains In Play spells) the rationale is that I generate 2PD automatically in the same manner as everyone else, and so can just use these dice to take care of RIP spells. Now under the rules for TK incantations only the dice that determine the power level of the incantation are said to explicitly 'not' be PD. But technically there are 2PD generated by the army, though unused by the Priests, that are available for theft...yes?

Doyl
16-09-2009, 20:54
Adding the MRoGrungi to your BSB would give a nice 6" radius bubble of protection against shooting/magic missiles, which parking him in the middle of your army should cover the majority of your units. With that advantage you shouldn't have any serious trouble outshooting him since you will reduce his shooting effectiveness by roughly 1/3. Also, if you take out his catapult and casket early in the game with some focussed bolt-thrower action, then you will remove a serious chunk of his shooting threat, and aside from having poison the archers shouldn't be wounding you too often on their own. To further reduce the archers usefulness, deploy far enough back that he has to move them forward, off of any hills in his area to cut their firepower in half if they are deployed in 2 ranks. By the time your opponent realizes they have to come to you you'll have a decent head start in the attrition game as he takes a couple turns slogging across the board trying to reach you. You going to them is not going to end well, as you said, you're looking at 1 turn of combat realistically, against an opponent that will not break, better to force them to cross the gap while you focus on one unit at a time, completely destroying it to prevent any unwanted reinforcements from undoing your hard work.

I would Drop the MRoBalance from the runesmith and give him 2-3 dispel runes instead. IIRC, TK don't generate power dice to cast, so stealing something that was never there won't help much or hinder them either, but being able to dispel his magic at critical points is a huge help, in particular from the casket early in the game to prevent it from potentially wiping out huge swaths of your troops and warmachine crew.

lcfr
16-09-2009, 20:56
Poison's only a factor if Khalida is present; she allows certain units to take an upgrade that gives Poisoned attacks.

Good call on the MRGrungni btw.

Falkman
16-09-2009, 21:07
IIRC, TK don't generate power dice to cast, so stealing something that was never there won't help much or hinder them either
As lcfr points out a Tomb Kings army always generate the two basic power dice that all armies generate, so you can steal one of those.
That said it doesn't lower his casting ability since you're not stealing anything he uses, you're just gaining an extra dispel dice.

Arguleon-veq
16-09-2009, 21:37
I cant really change my list besides the two posted, we use take on all comers lists, my suggested changes are changes I have talked about with my group befor the Tomb King game was arranged, so that would be ok.

Im not really sure why you think I can outshoot him though.

He generates 13 power, 11 of which can go on raising/double shooting me. To my 6 Dispel.

Assuming I am at long range, my Bolt Throwers/Cannon will kill about 3-4 models a turn. The Thunderers/Organ Gun can start to contribute from turn 4. So before turn 4, he will easily re-raise his casualties, even if I shoot his Cat. That can be brought back too. He also has much more effective warmachine hunters. For 4 Bolt Throwers to wipe out that Cat in 1 turn, all 4 would have to hit and wound at long range. One of them needing a 4 to wound and needing a 5+ for the amount of wounds on the D3.

He is looking at a possible minor win if we both stay back.
I am looking at best a draw if we both stay back.

Which only really leaves me with the option to advance IMO.

Perhaps very careful planning with the Gyro/Miners may allow me to get the jump on that Cat and destroy it. If I do that, my units may be able to stay above half strength from the arrows and I could scrape a win by sniping out the Casket/Killing off th eother Scorps going for my Machines.

Malorian
16-09-2009, 22:08
In a shooting war forget about the archers. Knock out the catapults and scorps, then turn on the grave guard while your troops move out to hold table quarters/take away his.

As said grungi will be a great help although if you want to take it to him just take the one that gives you a free movement before the game.

shartmatau
06-10-2009, 22:30
You could drop the magic items on your BSB to give him a runic banner. Its costs a bunch but you would fair far better. If you take Valaya (+2 to dispel) and Strollas (before game march) Then by the end of turn one you will be halfway across the board. You will greatly reduce his magic by being able to dispel several spells with 1 die. And reduce the number of turns it takes to get across the board.

It could still be tough but if you want to run across the board definitely take strollas, its a whole free turn of marching for your combat units.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-10-2009, 14:35
I am currently running a BatRep Blog for my Dwarfs on the BatRep board, my last game for them is going to be against Tomb Kings. My list runs;

Defensive Lord; 1+ Re Rollable, Great Wep.
Runesmith; Rune of Balance, 1+ Save [In combat]
Thane; BSB. 1+ Save.
Slayer;

Big Warrior Unit;
Hammerers;
2 Thunderer Units;
4 Bolt Throwers;
Organ Gun;
Gyro;

______________________

The list I am facing will be roughly;

High Priest; Fly + Other Stuff.
Priest; Casket + Other Stuff.
Priest; Stuff
Prince; Flail of Skulls.

3/4 Units of Archers; 1/2 Large Enough to reform and rank up.
Tomb Guard;
3 Scorps;
Catapult;
_______________________

Now Im just not sure how to go about this game. I have faced Tomb Kings quite a few times with my other forces and have never been confident in outshooting them so have took the fight to them and done well doing so. My Dwarfs will have a hard time reaching combat.

I cant really outshoot the enemy, they will replenish their ranks fairly easily with their magic and my army cant take 40+ Bows and 2 Cat Shots a turn. Plus there are the Scorps who can easily hunt my War Machines/Thunderers.
1 Scorp will no doubt stay back to protect his Cat from my Gyro/Miners.

So I am looking at walking through enemy fire for 5 turns for a last turn charge, against units I cant break..

My Thunderers/Organ will probably only get in range to fire on turn 4n if they are still alive.

Now I have been thinking of altering my list a little before this game, I would swap 2 Bolt Throwers for;

Runes of the Furnace on Characters.
Some weapon runes on Smith and BSB.
Cannon.

With that set up, at least I could hope to get some points by sniping the Liche off the Casket and maybe getting lucky with Look Out Sir to kill another character. Other than that Im stumped.

Any advice/suggestions or is it just one of those match ups where I will have to pray to the dice gods.

EDIT - Damn, will a Mod please change the title to 'Dwarfes vs TOMB KING Shooty/Magic Gunline.


If you are building this list to take out the fool with three scorpions (thats just evil...) I would suggest no artillery at all. March across the board and eat him!!!

Or you could take a couple smaller units and park them near the warmachines and move them in such a way as to protect your artillery. I would say lose the helicopter against TK the points could probably be better spent. You could try taking scouts with great weapons and unleash the fury on the rear of his lines. Especially the catapult!!! Make sure your lord has the item that makes him immune to killing blow otherwise....
You could also take an anvil of doom for more dispel power and it would allow you to hit him with some magic missiles/ when his scorpions come up (granted they cant reach your warmachines in the turn that they come up you could move twice to charge the thing. You could also set up your artillers in such a way that its all protected from small units or slayers or something and the only way he can get to your warmachines isliterally from underneath you. Odds are he wont know that he can come from underneath you directly and fight you or if he does he will scatter (hopefully). Remember that he/she must show you where he/she intends to bring up the scorpion at thebeginning of the game. That will give you a turn or two to counter maneuvre.
Good luck :angel:

Keller
07-10-2009, 15:16
I cant really change my list besides the two posted, we use take on all comers lists, my suggested changes are changes I have talked about with my group befor the Tomb King game was arranged, so that would be ok.

Well, if you are locked in with your list, you are going to have a very hard time with his static line. My advice would be to hide behind terrain as much as possible to minimize his shooting, then fight the scorpians and possibly the Guard as they come at you. You won't likely get much more than a draw, but such is the design of each of your armies that you can't compete in a normal fashion.

Just minimize the points he can earn, and take what kills you can if he chooses to engage. It will be a boring game, but thats waht happens when one makes a gun-line, especially with high magic, too.

lcfr
08-10-2009, 02:25
:wtf: Guys the game already happened....like two or three weeks ago. :p

Keller
08-10-2009, 12:37
:wtf: Guys the game already happened....like two or three weeks ago. :p

D'oh! I guess I should pay attention to the dates....

Arguleon-veq
08-10-2009, 13:04
Haha yeah, I lost. Was so close to the draw though, a couple of points in it. The Scorps ran rough shod over my lines, my Cannon was miserable, all my shooting was actually.

I did hit combat eventually though and I smashed his Tomb Guard and some Archers.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
08-10-2009, 17:56
Sounds like a boring game ...

Arguleon-veq
08-10-2009, 18:26
How on earth can you deduce that from the few lines in my post above it?

Theres a BatRep of it in my Dwarf BatRep blog if you want to find out if it was or not.

' Odds are he wont know that he can come from underneath you directly and fight'

It would have to be a rather naff/daft opponent to not know the rules of their own army.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
08-10-2009, 20:31
How on earth can you deduce that from the few lines in my post above it?

Theres a BatRep of it in my Dwarf BatRep blog if you want to find out if it was or not.

' Odds are he wont know that he can come from underneath you directly and fight'

It would have to be a rather naff/daft opponent to not know the rules of their own army.

lol I made the deduction from the lists. I havent any time for reading battle reports I have got oodles of mid terms and studying to do. Med school admittance isn't exactly given out (in Canada atleast) :rolleyes:

Peace :angel: