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View Full Version : Problems with balance, multiple magic banners



Kayosiv
17-09-2009, 05:42
One of the biggest problems I see with balance that I haven't seen come up in a discussion yet seems to be multiple magic banners in a single unit.

Obviously there's magic items and special characters out there that are too strong/effective for their point costs and some armies special rules may be too over the top as well. Still, almost all of the "deathstar" type units employ using a unit with a magic banner and having the army battle standard bearer in the same unit with another magical banner.

This seems to be the root of several balance problems I've heard and I would propose that only 1 magical banner should work in a given unit at one time, either 1 picked every turn or simply the one with the highest casting cost, perhaps trumped by the BSB's banner in case of a tie.

Is this a step in the right direction, or is it the magical banners and unit special rules in their respective armies that are causing the problems more than being able to have stacking magic banners that effect an entire unit and any hero(s) that might be inside?

TheAmazingAntman
17-09-2009, 06:01
That makes an exceptional amount of sense.

Characters (generally) can't benefit from more than one talisman, why should units be able to benefit from more than one magical banner.

Falkman
17-09-2009, 07:49
I don't think it makes much sense at all.
Deathstar units are not only the cause of being able to use more than one banner, but they're a product of several changes being wrought into the game in the latest army books.
With the prevalence of units that are either unbreakable, stubborn or immune to psychology you have increased the needed starting components for a deathstar manyfold. Furthermore, having BSBs being really survivable nowadays also adds to the potential of a deathstar. And last but not least GW keeps putting out really silly/over the top magical banners, and I feel that the banners themselves, more than the fact that you can benefit from several at once, are at fault here.
One simply should not have access to banners such as Drakenhof Banner, Great Standard of Sundering etc (the Locus of Nurgle rule also deserves a kick in the nuts).

Axis
17-09-2009, 08:53
I was fine with over the top banners when it was dead easy to kill the bearers since they couldnt take shields etc... now i am not so sure.

Condottiere
17-09-2009, 09:40
They can be annoying if they turn up in the same unit, but I don't see much of a remedy for this, as essentially, it's just a character with a magic item that's joined a formation.

vahouth
17-09-2009, 11:46
The opponent can have 2 banners in a unit, but also so can you...
It is just a unit that benefit by the special rules that come with a Character (BSB or not).
Now the problem IMHO isn't the -2 banners in a unit- thing, but rather which army has the biggest cheese.

Kayosiv
17-09-2009, 20:07
The opponent can have 2 banners in a unit, but also so can you...
It is just a unit that benefit by the special rules that come with a Character (BSB or not).
Now the problem IMHO isn't the -2 banners in a unit- thing, but rather which army has the biggest cheese.

I don't think the "well it's ok because your country can build nuclear missiles too" is a good response to game balance, although I do see your point.

The absurdity of magic banners is absolutely an issue as well. For example Lizardmen, Orcs, and Empire just don't have any really over the top banners, so you never see it come up as an issue. The banners are themselves to blaim for their respective armies. But is that something that should be nipped in the bud, or should future army books just tone down their banners so it never becomes a large issue, or at least ceases to become one?

Tokamak
17-09-2009, 20:33
A rule where you need to chose which of the banners in a unit actually have effect would be appropriate.

But then again, my unit has two banner where one of them doesn't actually enhance the unit (generates dispel dices by the amount of ranks it has) so that would screw me over.

Kayosiv
18-09-2009, 01:22
Sort of, it would lack you some dispel dice when the unit is in combat, but only then.

It's one of those "small price to pay" things that you have to evaluate to be worth it to prevent 4+ ward save regenerating graveguard or unbreakable always strike first Executioners.

eyescrossed
18-09-2009, 01:36
unbreakable always strike first Executioners.

Lolwut

Sorry, I had to.

But, how can you do that? Executioners can't take the ASF banner, so the BSB would have to have either the Unbreakable or the ASF.

Falkman
18-09-2009, 01:39
And the BSB would just be frenzy-baited out of the unit anyway, it wouldn't pose much of a problem.

artyboy
18-09-2009, 02:48
Besides the drakenhoff/banner of the barrows grave guard unit who else has a really broken two banner combo? Vamps already pay almost 1/4 of their points towards their lord. Then they can put another 1/4 of their points and a hero slot towards another almost impossible to kill unit. Meanwhile the rest of their army is easy to take out and the hardest units are really easy to tie up or just completely avoid.

505
18-09-2009, 03:18
I like to use in my he

banner that gives +1 CR and d6 combat res in a unit of DP. giving me +4-+7 before combat starts.

hard as nails the first time I use it and it never works a second time.

Lazarus15
18-09-2009, 09:12
I use Icon of the Sacred Eye and Mirage Banner in my Tomb Kings chariot squad. I don't think it overpowered, but it is respectable.

Maoriboy007
18-09-2009, 09:19
Besides the drakenhoff/banner of the barrows grave guard unit who else has a really broken two banner combo? Vamps already pay almost 1/4 of their points towards their lord. Then they can put another 1/4 of their points and a hero slot towards another almost impossible to kill unit. Meanwhile the rest of their army is easy to take out and the hardest units are really easy to tie up or just completely avoid.

DE have the Black Guard ASF with Ring Hotek combo, quite annoting.