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Eternus
17-09-2009, 11:11
I ask this because I love infantry, and my WoC army is mainly infantry, with some supporting units like a Giant, a couple of Spawn, some hounds etc. I have 1 unit of Knights and 1 unit of Horsemen. Most of the WoC lists I see posted are cavalry heavy, some being all mounted with no infantry blocks at all.

Can a WoC list that isn't almost totally geared around the cavalry be a successful army?

Witchblade
17-09-2009, 11:21
You need to go magic heavy then and possibly include a hellcannon.

kramplarv
17-09-2009, 11:29
of course not. I've seen armies with no models with more than M4 except some fast cav and dogs to kick a lot.

Infantry WoC are a real hard nut to crack? Why?
1: They will most surely win in close combat.
2: They have access to cheap infantry which can divert, stall, or kill enemy units.
3: The units of warriors and chosen will more often than not still be alive with more than 50% of US at the end. Giving away no points to the enemy.
4: Shooting ain't that much of a problem with att good selection of dogs, horsemen and the occasional fast character.
5: Very few armies can claim quarters vs an infantry army.

All in all, this makes an infantry horde of chaos a very good option. It will be easier if it is proper supported by mages since fighting characters are not really needed.

Eternus
17-09-2009, 11:34
You need to go magic heavy then and possibly include a hellcannon.

So an army that lacks the above but has multiple blocks of infantry, say 2 of Marauders and 3 of Warriors, with cavalry as supporting units, could expect to struggle?

Eternus
17-09-2009, 11:35
of course not. I've seen armies with no models with more than M4 except some fast cav and dogs to kick a lot.

Infantry WoC are a real hard nut to crack? Why?
1: They will most surely win in close combat.
2: They have access to cheap infantry which can divert, stall, or kill enemy units.
3: The units of warriors and chosen will more often than not still be alive with more than 50% of US at the end. Giving away no points to the enemy.
4: Shooting ain't that much of a problem with att good selection of dogs, horsemen and the occasional fast character.
5: Very few armies can claim quarters vs an infantry army.

All in all, this makes an infantry horde of chaos a very good option. It will be easier if it is proper supported by mages since fighting characters are not really needed.

This is my line of thinking, but then again I also play very infantry heavy VC's.

The SkaerKrow
17-09-2009, 12:39
I would think that they could be competitive, but beware of getting too one dimensional. Armies and units designed to counter infantry may give you fits. Including the Giant is a good idea, and I would consider bringing at least 6 Levels of Magic.

Speaking purely from a TheoryHammer perspective, a unit of Trolls may be desirable as well. While units like Swordmasters of Hoeth may give your Warriors, Marauders and Giant fits, the regeneration of Trolls gives them a good chance of absorbing a round of high strength attacks, affording them that all important opportunity to strike back.

PeG
17-09-2009, 12:48
In my opinion this can only be done if you also take rather large amounts of magic and potentially a hellcannon. Having hard units doesnt help if you have to walk across the entire board with M4 before you can do damage.

A shooty or magic heavy opponent with some marchblocking units (which most armies have) can choose to sit back and let you do all the walking. The majority of your army will then either get shot to pieces while walking or maybe see 1-2 rounds of combat before a 6 turn game ends. Also a VC army based on raising/enforcing units will be huge before you get the first blow.

If your opponent goes first and you get marchblocket from turn 1 you might not even see combat during the entire game and then it doesnt matter how many of your units have died since it will still be enough to lose the game.

Eternus
17-09-2009, 13:03
In my opinion this can only be done if you also take rather large amounts of magic and potentially a hellcannon. Having hard units doesnt help if you have to walk across the entire board with M4 before you can do damage.

A shooty or magic heavy opponent with some marchblocking units (which most armies have) can choose to sit back and let you do all the walking. The majority of your army will then either get shot to pieces while walking or maybe see 1-2 rounds of combat before a 6 turn game ends. Also a VC army based on raising/enforcing units will be huge before you get the first blow.

If your opponent goes first and you get marchblocket from turn 1 you might not even see combat during the entire game and then it doesnt matter how many of your units have died since it will still be enough to lose the game.

These are some good points - as my army is Slaanesh, and Slaaneshi magic seems good for pulling enemy units out of position, by either sending them haring off after some imaginary brothel, or making them frenzied etc, I think this could help with this problem.

Also, I have a couple of Spawn which would be good for dealing with march blockers, as they have a 360* charge arc and are should be tough for small units to deal with.

Lord Khabal
17-09-2009, 13:11
It can be competitive. Its just not as good as the all cavalry WOC. If you dont believe me try a game with proxis and see for yourself...

I also play WOC and that was the conclusion I reached after lots of playtesting. as such my list is something like:
hero (gen)
2x lvl1 caddys (1 on chariot)
3x 6x marauder horeseman, fl, mos
3 x 6x chaos knights (std, mus), MOS or MOK
3x ogres
2x5 hounds

lots of screening and fast moving. At 2000 pts its as good as it gets

Witchblade
17-09-2009, 13:18
So an army that lacks the above but has multiple blocks of infantry, say 2 of Marauders and 3 of Warriors, with cavalry as supporting units, could expect to struggle?
You need magic to get rid of march blockers and provide at least some shooting to force opponents to engage you. Your M4 blocks will never catch skirmishers, fliers or fast cav. 2 spawn or 1 scyla could be very useful in this respect, because they can stay behind your lines and cover a 360 spread to deter eagles, carrion and the like. Also, they can cover your rear and flank, as they're unbreakable and quite resilient.

Anyway, without magic you don't stand a chance in hell against gunlines (skaven, empire, dwarfs), wood elves and dark elves. Bretonnia, lizardmen, other WoC and high elves will also have a huge advantage over you, as they'll outmanouever you as well. You might fair ok against daemons and undead actually, although their magic might wreck you and their armies are simply better and more versatile than yours.

In short, you get march blocked, ignored and ganged.

A chosen deathstar could be the most competitive heavy infantry list without magic.

Still, there are ways to get around these weaknesses without resorting to knights and magic. Spawns, a hellcannon, an exalted hunter-type bsb on disc, a dragon and, by far the best option, Valkia.

Eternus
17-09-2009, 13:19
It can be competitive. Its just not as good as the all cavalry WOC. If you dont believe me try a game with proxis and see for yourself...

I also play WOC and that was the conclusion I reached after lots of playtesting. as such my list is something like:
hero (gen)
2x lvl1 caddys (1 on chariot)
3x 6x marauder horeseman, fl, mos
3 x 6x chaos knights (std, mus), MOS or MOK
3x ogres
2x5 hounds

lots of screening and fast moving. At 2000 pts its as good as it gets

This is just the kind of list I see people putting forward as competative, and I'm sure they are, they just don't fit my preferance, and I think they also risk not fitting the background either. You don't read about that many Chaos cavalry armies, they tend towards the hordes of Marauders with a hard core of Warriors, and horse on the perifery. This is why I'm determined to play my WoC infantry army into the ground until I can make it work - that's the image I have in my mind of a WoC army.

Draconian77
17-09-2009, 13:54
If you throw a rough army list up in the army list section I should be able to help, lot's of WoC players around here use infantry based lists. (And yes, they can be competitive, as long as you don't mind mixing and matching your Marks.)

Eternus
17-09-2009, 14:06
If you throw a rough army list up in the army list section I should be able to help, lot's of WoC players around here use infantry based lists. (And yes, they can be competitive, as long as you don't mind mixing and matching your Marks.)

Nice one dude - I have one up in there at the moment, picked for a game vs Brets - it will make up half of a 4000 point army.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220696

dapredator66
17-09-2009, 17:24
As everyone already said, a footsloggers army needs to compensate for its low movement by using fast cavalry, shooting and/or magic. That's why having a hellcanon, heavy magic and horsemen/hounds are pretty essential.

The great strength of infantry is their resilience. One unlucky dice roll might loose you a couple of Warriors but you will still have plenty left in the back rows (something you can't do with knights). Actually, I think a competitive inf. based army needs to build its effectiveness on that resilience. One of the best item to do this is the Banner of the Gods and any other units/items that boost the unit (like WarShrines).

Draconian77
17-09-2009, 18:30
I threw a rather long post up, revolving around a what I see as an effective WoC infantry list. It's something similar to what I would use, if I had a WoC army.

kramplarv
18-09-2009, 08:23
It can be competitive. Its just not as good as the all cavalry WOC. If you dont believe me try a game with proxis and see for yourself...




of course it is as good as an all cavalry force... But the cavlary force might be easier (and cheaper ) to use. But jsut because something is easier doesn't mean it's better.

All cavalry WoC aint as good as good old fashioned combined arms...(and besides, its boring! )

Maoriboy007
18-09-2009, 08:31
Well we've got a Infantry VC (played by me) vs Infantry WoC coming up in our gaming group next week, I'll let you know how they do.

FYI game limits:
7 PD max (not including bound spells)
Characters must be on foot
Only one monster/chariot(corpse cart / mount)
1 unit of dogs
couple of others I cant remember.

Eternus
18-09-2009, 09:54
Ok guys, based on this discussion and the comments made on the list I posted, revised list now up - Am I nuts, or could this work? Many thanks to all.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220696

Arguleon-veq
18-09-2009, 12:55
I am not sure if you would count my list as Infantry Heavy. Most of the list is Infantry....but there still isnt much of it.

I havent been to many tournies, mainly because I hate painting but a few people out of my group often attend tournies and usually place well. Me and my most common opponents [ones who I let play at my place, me at theirs etc] all have very heavy winning records against people that arent in our close group. We very rarely lose if going to any of the local stores or gaming clubs.

For the kinds of list I face you can see them in my Warriors Blog on the BatRep board but here is the list I run which I consider to be competative in a quite competative environment [wether it is a competative environment or not is your choice to make on the info above].

Sorcerer Lord; 379
Barded Steed,
Runesword,
Enchanted Shield,
Mark of Slaanesh,
Spell Fam.
Extra Level.

Sorcerer; 186
Extra Level,
Power Familiar,
Book of Secrets,
Barded Horse.

Sorcerer; 175
Mark of Tzeentch,
Extra Level.
Puppet.

Sorcerer; 185
Mark of Nurgle,
Bloodskull.
Extra Level.

11 Warriors; 272
Shields,
Halberds,
Full Command,
Banner of Wrath.
Mark of Slaanesh.

21 Marauders; 135
Slaanesh,
Full Command.

6 Hounds; 36

5 Marauder Horse; 85
Flails,
Slaanesh.

5 Knights; 230
Standard,
Slaanesh.

Hellcannon; 205
Spawn; 55
Spawn; 55

1996

My Spawn/Hellcannon/Magic usually give me plenty of options to deal with enemy march blockers. The obvious weakness in the list is powerful close combat flyers, Dragons not so much as I can really hurt them with magic/shooting.

Against most armies I dont need to advance but even when I do I feel as though I have enough speed in my list to do it fairly well.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I have been considering this list to try and see if Infantry Heavy really can work;

12 Warriors; Khorne, Halberds, Shields, Musician.
12 Warriors; Khorne, Halberds, Shields, Musician.
12 Warriors; Khorne, Halberds, Shields, Musician.
12 Warriors; Khorne, Halberds, Shields, Musician.

5 Knights; Khorne
5 Knights; Khorne

Spawn;

6 Dogs;
6 Dogs;

Sorc; Steed, Fury of the Blood God - Joins Knights
Sorc; Steed, Scroll, Coller of Khorne - Joins Knights

Exalted; Tzeentch, Eye, Disk, Flail, Shield

What do you think? Any chace? Too 1 Dimensional? Easily countered?