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Dageo
17-09-2009, 17:26
Hello there, I'm currently expanding my WoC army to 3000 points, and am thinking about getting something big. After contemplating for a long time between getting a giant or a shaggoth, I remembered chaos can have manticores!

So what would the best choice be out of a character + giant/shaggoth, or a lord on a manticore? My current 2000 point list includes 12 warriors, 5 knights, 20 marauders, 5 hounds, 5 horsemen, 4 ogres, juggernaut guy, disk guy, BSB and Nurgle sorc.

Also what is the best setup on a manticore? I'm thinking MoS/T/K/N, axe of khorne (to compliment the manticores killing blow), then something defensive, and maybe that talisman that causes T tests to those in contact :D

Any help or words of wisdom from people who have had experience with this kinda setup would be appreciated!

Peace!

pointyteeth
17-09-2009, 18:53
Ok, you are about to get a bunch of posts telling you not to get manticores because they aren't efficient/not worth the points/plain suck :D. Personally I like Manticores. For character choice, I'd go with a lord as there is always the chance every round of it becoming frenzied and you don't want it to go charging into combat with your sorc lord. I'd kit him out with MoT or MoN and either hellfire sword or daemonsword(?) depending on what your regular opponents are (hellfire sword for character/monster/troll killing, daemonsword for unit murderization. Gotta make sure to use cover to your advantage though.

just my 2 cents

HughbertofKhorne
19-09-2009, 10:33
I like Manticores!!! :D Not the most efficient choice in the list for it's points this is true (but you're playing chaos efficiency should take second place to brutality and Daemon worship :P)
But the Manticore can more than make it's points back, both from enemy fire that isnt targetting your knights and warriors, and the killing potential in combat.
its also more efficient at killing than the giant, ive been running a giant and have some amazing games with it and some horrific games with it.
Shaggoths are very a good choice, but bland I feel. worth taking if you do want to deal with the slightly more erratic tendancies of the other two.
But yeah, a manticore is a very respectible choice

shartmatau
19-09-2009, 16:17
Well if your going up to 3000 pts then this won't be your only lord. or at least he won't be your general. So I would go ahead and just make him as bashy yet still cheap as possible, throwing him into the fray to either draw fire away form others or to cause terror tests then charge something in the side.

I like simple character setups for WoC, alot of their weapons seem good but you could probably get just as much use out of a flail or basic sword of striking. the common magic shield plus chaos armor is enough to keep him around for a minute. One good option would be to give him Bloodcurdling roar, this combined with fast movement could be a solid offense against fast cav or light shooting units that will attempt to shoot down teh manticore.

This way he doesnt cost a ton. Your saving points with: Manticore instead of dragon, regular or cheap magic weapon instead of expensive weapon, and still have a decent save and plenty of high strength attacks. BCR is good for protection from small lightly armored shooting units or if you can't see them the unit your about to charge is jjust as good a target.

Dageo
19-09-2009, 17:52
Since I already use rawr on my disk surfer, I'll probibly end up using stream of coruption against some foes (then hes like a mini dragon :D), or diabolical splendor for those -1 terror tests (combine with doom totem and try to scare em off the field turn 1 or 2).

My main opponents are Orcs and Goblins (with no artillery) and Vampire counts. This means I'm facing next to no ranged attacks, and large, relatively slow (Waaagh/Invocation :() blocks of troops.

Does MoN affect the manticore aswell as the rider? Would be nice to have most opponents hitting it on 5+ rather than 4+ due to the manticores lack of a save, and even an orc boy with choppa can wound it on a 5+.

zerachiel
20-09-2009, 01:07
Ok, you are about to get a bunch of posts telling you not to get manticores because they aren't efficient/not worth the points/plain suck :D. Personally I like Manticores. For character choice, I'd go with a lord as there is always the chance every round of it becoming frenzied and you don't want it to go charging into combat with your sorc lord. I'd kit him out with MoT or MoN and either hellfire sword or daemonsword(?) depending on what your regular opponents are (hellfire sword for character/monster/troll killing, daemonsword for unit murderization. Gotta make sure to use cover to your advantage though.

just my 2 cents

I wouldn't recommend a Daemonsword. With the +D6 Attacks your Lord's putting out, statistics will see him dead by his own hand in 3-4 rounds of combat, and that's without your opponent's helping hand. The poor guy doesn't deserve to go that way- just because he's riding a Manticore doesn't make him suicidal. :p


Since I already use rawr on my disk surfer, I'll probibly end up using stream of coruption against some foes (then hes like a mini dragon :D), or diabolical splendor for those -1 terror tests (combine with doom totem and try to scare em off the field turn 1 or 2).

My main opponents are Orcs and Goblins (with no artillery) and Vampire counts. This means I'm facing next to no ranged attacks, and large, relatively slow (Waaagh/Invocation :() blocks of troops.

Does MoN affect the manticore aswell as the rider? Would be nice to have most opponents hitting it on 5+ rather than 4+ due to the manticores lack of a save, and even an orc boy with choppa can wound it on a 5+.

Without artillery, Manticores are very fun (though one Stone Thrower will wreck your day with a good hit, two Bolt Throwers will likely pincushion you by turn 2-3, and a typical Dwarven gunline is just not worth talking about...). I'd suggest a Chaos Lord with Enchanted Shield and Runesword if you're looking for a cheap killer (or Everlasting Conquest and mundane Shield if you've got points to throw around). Chances are they'll aim for your no save Manticore anyway, so you don't need that much protection (and you should only be charging their flank/combined charge/existing combat anyway, so you won't be fighting anything too hard on that crucial first turn).

I don't enjoy the Manticore myself (the Dragon, she is so purrrty), but I do like to play around with an Abyssal Horror in VC (which is also a tough to shoot to death army with no shooting but huge close-combat power), so I have some idea as to what I'm talking about. :p You go down FAST to shooting, so either silence them early or prepare to hide in a little corner. Don't fight alone unless you have at least the flank and they are S4 or less. One lucky round of combat will see you off way easier than a Dragon, as you have no saves and are twice as likely to get wounded by S4. And once they turn to face you, you're practically done unless you can butcher them round after round (talking about block infantry).

They're also avid heavy cavalry hunters, capable of hitting on the side and that's pretty much a guaranteed kill.

Against VC, consider the Bronze Armour of Zhrakk, as their Wight Kings and Grave Guard will happily remove your Lord's head otherwise (and with Sword of Kings... Ugh).

Kburn
20-09-2009, 02:07
While it seems weird that you should save points on your lord, while you've already spent so much on a manticore, there are good reasons to do so...

Weapon:
1) Your manticore is good enough to kill most stuff on its own, its one of the most powerful creatures in the game, with your lord riding upon it...
2)Combat will rarely, if ever last for more than a round, so use a cheap flail rather than anything else. I'd go out on limb and say that its even better than most magic weapons.

Armour: I'd suggest using crimson armour to at least defend against killing blows and cannons for your lord... Armourless is fine anyway, since you'd kill most stuff in contact with you, and your lord gets hit only on a 5+ from shooting, so he rarely gets hit, if at all....

Seville
20-09-2009, 06:16
I have to agree with Zerachiel, the demon sword is not all that great. Every time I've taken it, I've regretted it because it kills my Lord off in bout three rounds of combat, even with a 1+ armor save and 5+ ward.

I might go with the following setup -

MoT
Axe of Khorne
Chaos Runeshield
Favor of the Gods

or

MoT
Chaos Runesword
Collar of Khorne
Enchanted Shield

Diabolic Splendor could be fun for the terror checks that the manticore causes.

zerachiel
20-09-2009, 18:43
While it seems weird that you should save points on your lord, while you've already spent so much on a manticore, there are good reasons to do so...

Weapon:
1) Your manticore is good enough to kill most stuff on its own, its one of the most powerful creatures in the game, with your lord riding upon it...
2)Combat will rarely, if ever last for more than a round, so use a cheap flail rather than anything else. I'd go out on limb and say that its even better than most magic weapons.

Armour: I'd suggest using crimson armour to at least defend against killing blows and cannons for your lord... Armourless is fine anyway, since you'd kill most stuff in contact with you, and your lord gets hit only on a 5+ from shooting, so he rarely gets hit, if at all....

One of his main opponents is Vampire Counts, however, and travelling around with a mundane weapon against Vampire Counts is just asking to be jumped by Wraiths.

Dageo
20-09-2009, 21:45
One of his main opponents is Vampire Counts, however, and travelling around with a mundane weapon against Vampire Counts is just asking to be jumped by Wraiths.

And spirit hosts... :eek:

Is the best mark MoT (by best, I mean: will enhance the unit's ability to perform it's role on the field)? Is the extra +1 to ward saves better than WS3 troops hitting the manticore on a 5+ (and better protection against ranged weapons when I do face them) from MoN. I havn't done the math on this so I don't know... I'll get right on that :confused:

I'm also asking because I don't know of any models to use for a mounted Tz lord, but I think the nurgle lord on daemonic steed would look *dr00l* if it fits.

Oberon
21-09-2009, 13:06
MoN won't help at all, unless enemies direct CC attacks against the lord himself, as the manticore won't have the mark. So, MoT all the way (especially if you take an item that gives a ward save).

Dageo
21-09-2009, 20:51
Oh right... bummer :(

Well then, Tz it is then :cool: only one problem: the model. The standard Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount model (with the squid arm), would that transfer across to the manticore? And look Tz enough? This though would cost 45 (bout $75), not too much of a problem, but I'd like to know if it'd work right before shelling out for it.
Anyone who has done a manticore conversion to ride something other than the dude that comes with it can they link me to a pic, or post one up please? I've scoured the net looking for pics and found diddly squat.

jthdotcom
21-09-2009, 22:14
Have you considered GALRAUCH? I find him very effective, level 4 tzeentch, causing terror, and counting as a flank or rear( unit strength 6), and breath weapons x2 a turn. Invaluable in my opinion to take at war machines and shooty units, I took out 20 high elves archers in a turn(10 ran away, the others got burned). Chaos get shot, its a sad fact, Galrauch solves it

Oberon
21-09-2009, 22:49
Zomg, a whopping 20 HE archers.
Galrauch is fine, except for 3 things:
1: only 100 or so pts cheaper than kitted out sorc on dragon, but less versatile
2: all hits against the "mount", none to the rider with a good ward
3: that rule that renders him unusable quite often, hitting itself and not casting...

Sorc lord on dragon can breath twice, or 3 times once per game! Roar is great, and one can take whatever kit he likes for the sorc. Galrauch has one thing going for it though: knows all spells...

zerachiel
21-09-2009, 22:49
Have you considered GALRAUCH? I find him very effective, level 4 tzeentch, causing terror, and counting as a flank or rear( unit strength 6), and breath weapons x2 a turn. Invaluable in my opinion to take at war machines and shooty units, I took out 20 high elves archers in a turn(10 ran away, the others got burned). Chaos get shot, its a sad fact, Galrauch solves it

I've used him several times, and he honestly feels like a Daemon Prince- not good enough at either. He's 616 points, and will not be as magically devastating as a Sorcerer Lord kitted out with Familiars and Books and Discs, etc. He's also just a dragon by itself, and surprisingly, this makes him pretty beatable in combat. I've been ran down by a Lizardmen BSB enough times to really worry about Galrauch (against most armies he'd work pretty well, but if he does not charge in conjunction, he can still find some way to screw up). With a Lord on top of the normal Chaos Dragon, the Dragon has another 5+ attacks at S5+ to swing the fight and/or murder characters.

Also, statistically speaking, he'll spend 1 turn every game cutting himself, which for me seems to always happen right in front of a line of cannons, or something similarly disastrous. Ld 9 is surprisingly easy to fail, and in 2000 points having 1/3 of your army biting itself is just not productive.

A Lord on a Manticore can honestly outfight more people than Galrauch.