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penek
15-01-2006, 17:16
after rally unit may do nothing...
what if enemy cast Waagh spell .. he may after this charge with unit that rally this turn? imho not, but i dont fully understand wording in O&G book

T10
16-01-2006, 10:55
The spell allows units to move if they are (excuse the paraphrasing) in a position to charge the enemy. The spell does not exclude units that are "unable to do anything" that turn. The only criteria is that the unit must be able to charge.

In my opinion, rallied, reformed and squabbling units are eligible targets for this spell.

-T10

mageith
16-01-2006, 14:36
The spell allows units to move if they are (excuse the paraphrasing) in a position to charge the enemy.

Your paraphrase inserts the term "position" which is a pretty liberal interpretation of the actual wording: "provided they could charge the enemy if it was their Movement phase".

Usually I see this interpreted as 'if it was their (last) Movement phase'. But even if its interpreted as 'their (new) Movement phase', it seems to me that any effect that lasts the whole turn would affect the Orcs ability to charge in the (new/last) Movement phase.

If the term was '(a) (new) Movement Phase', I think you'd have a better argument.



The spell does not exclude units that are "unable to do anything" that turn. The only criteria is that the unit must be able to charge.

:) "unable to do anything" would include charging that turn, IMO. The key term being "that turn".



In my opinion, rallied, reformed and squabbling units are eligible targets for this spell.

Needless to say, I don't agree.

Ith

Da GoBBo
18-01-2006, 12:16
I tend to go along with mista 10 here. The spell says "provided they could charge the enemy if it was their movement phase". Last movement phase has been completed and the ralied unit can do anything in any next movement phase they enter (unless otherwise prohibited, but lets not take anything silly into account if we dont have to). Now is the magic phase, and this spell effects any units able to do something if it was their movement phase. I really can't see any reason to look back to the movement phase which has just been completed. The spell kind of generates a new movement phase within the magic phase. Even though it's not a true movement phase of course, it definitly is a new/next one in my point of view. Ralied troops would therefor be effected by the spell.

T10
18-01-2006, 12:51
Needless to say, I don't agree.


Needless to say, I am biased towards Orcs & Goblins. :)

-T10

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-01-2006, 17:11
Far as I'm concerned, any spell concernign magical movement ignores the previous activities of that unit in any given turn. Whether marched, reformed rallied or whatever, the spell can be used on them.

mageith
19-01-2006, 03:41
Far as I'm concerned, any spell concernign magical movement ignores the previous activities of that unit in any given turn. Whether marched, reformed rallied or whatever, the spell can be used on them.

Then you are ignoring lots of rules. Its not a matter of previous activities, its a matter of a rule lasting for the entire turn as each one of your instances states again and again.

Squabble: "The unit can do nothing this turn whilst the Bosses crack heads together to restore order." (OG 9)

Rally: "If they rall then they remain where they are for the turn...." (45)

Reform: "A unit that reforms cannot move that turn..."

I'll give you 'march'. They can Waaagh if they marched during their normal movement phase.

Mage Ith

NakedFisherman
19-01-2006, 03:45
Mageith is correct here.

sds661
19-01-2006, 05:42
This question has been the cause of endless debate in our group. Just like in this thread, opinion seems to be determined by the colour of your skin.

Honestly, Waagh is already ridiculously powerful ... able to effect an unlimited number of units. Asking it to circumvent the disadvantages of failing animosity and rallying after a panic/flee is just too much wishful thinking from da greenskins.

T10
19-01-2006, 06:47
The Waagh spell is indeed quite powerful, at least on paper.

If you have the spell, then you are playing with at least 2000 points, which normally means a lot of units. For the units to be affected , they must be within charge range (at least).

The random move involved means that you shoould move as close as possible. You may risk having Goblin Wolf riders 17" away moving 2d6" towards the enemy...

Now, unless you have been able to outmaneuver the enemy something fierce, this means placing at least some units where they can be charged, or you have to keep them away.

Assuming you get all the ladz into position, all that remains is getting the spell cast successfully and rolling well enough to reach combat.

All in all: fun but risky.

-T10

Da GoBBo
19-01-2006, 13:32
Mageith is correct here.

He definitly has a good point. Don't know if I agree. Rules get overruled all the time by a lot of things. Moving a unit which couldn't normally move that turn by means of magic sounds completly fine to me. The fact that I play greenskins has nothing to do with that by the way, kind of a silly assumption mista 661. Lets go back to the letter of the spelldescription as well. "provided they could charge the enemy if it was their movement phase". You say they are not effected, because having ralied doesn't allow them to do that this turn. With this, you also say that last movement phase has been completed. If I refer to "charging during my movement phase" (which the spel does) from that moment on, I'd say your're refering the next movement phase, not one which has allready been completed.
It's kinda vage, but at the moment I don't know how to put it more clearly. Fact is that think the spell overrules the rallypart which says the unit can't move anymore that turn.

mageith
19-01-2006, 14:45
He definitly has a good point. Don't know if I agree. Rules get overruled all the time by a lot of things. Moving a unit which couldn't normally move that turn by means of magic sounds completly fine to me.

And normally I'd agree except the Waaagh spell specifically references a/the Movement Phase. So, IMO, it's an additional Movement Phase in the same turn. What else could the reference mean?

As for rules being overruled, I'd be interested in some examples. IMO, rules are in effect until they specifically contradicted. There are some exceptions to this that folks play as (not at) conventions, such as breaking the ranks of Raiders.



The fact that I play greenskins has nothing to do with that by the way, kind of a silly assumption mista 661. Lets go back to the letter of the spelldescription as well. "provided they could charge the enemy if it was their movement phase". You say they are not effected, because having ralied doesn't allow them to do that this turn. With this, you also say that last movement phase has been completed. If I refer to "charging during my movement phase" (which the spel does) from that moment on, I'd say your're refering the next movement phase, not one which has allready been completed.

You a referring to PHASES, the other effects are referring to TURNS. A phase is within a turn. An effect the lasts the whole turn doesn't care when the Movement Phase is or how many of them there are. (TK can have multiple Movement phases, no?)



It's kinda vage, but at the moment I don't know how to put it more clearly. Fact is that think the spell overrules the rallypart which says the unit can't move anymore that turn.
Since magic doesn't trump mundane like it used to, I don't think it's vague at all. I think the reference to ""provided they could charge the enemy if it was their movement phase" very clearly limits the effects of the Waaagh spell.

What else could the reference mean?

Mage Ith

Da GoBBo
19-01-2006, 21:05
...rules are in effect until they specifically contradicted...

Which the spell doesn't, true

...You a referring to PHASES, the other effects are referring to TURNS. A phase is within a turn. An effect the lasts the whole turn doesn't care when the Movement Phase is or how many of them there are. (TK can have multiple Movement phases, no?)...



:) Yes, I think I agree with you now.

sds661
02-02-2006, 13:02
... all that remains is getting the spell cast successfully and rolling well enough to reach combat.
-T10

Use Mork Save Us ... for some rerolls that can give irrestible force.
Then do some Double Dipping, and use the Baduum Staff.
And if you miscast you can roll a 6 anyway!

When you think about it, you have a pretty good chance of getting it up. The combination is particularly wicked in big battles. I have been hit with 7 simultaneous charges.

As I said ... way to powerful in my book. (Except the odd occasion when I lead the Green Machine.)

Da GoBBo
02-02-2006, 13:12
If it pleases you, I'd like you to do some proper maths on this and calculate the averge change of situation like this occuring. Though calculation, i know, with an awfull lot of variables, but I can tell ye it's not that much.

Powerful things happening every ones in a while isn't powerfull, thats just bein lucky.

Mad Makz
02-02-2006, 23:39
I have also seen people use Waaaggghhh without thinking about the consequences.... Like their lone goblin shamen being in charge range and having to charge into combat versus the enemy. ;)

All in all Waaaggghhh can be very powerful, and potentially brokenly so, but the random nature of it means it CAN backfire spectacularly (especially with fast movers and independent characters on foot).

However, in a foot slogging Orc army, I'd say it is a very powerful spell, and 'potentially' too powerful.

As for the rule arguement, I would argue A) that GW simply didn't think about the rallying/animosity situation when they wrote the rule, so the intention is vague at the least. B) By the wording of the rules, Mageith's arguement is sound, but it wouldn't surprise me if GW overruled this (except for the fact that Orc magic is going to change within a year in all likelihood so GW won't be bothering changing anything, just like they aren't doing Errata's for the current edition because all their developers are already working with the next edition in mind.)

sds661
03-02-2006, 02:25
If it pleases you, I'd like you to do some proper maths on this ... but I can tell ye it's not that much.

It pleases me very much. To keep it simple, one 4th level Shaman with 5 dice and the Baduum staff. Assume no Mork Save Us rerolls, and assume we need Irresistable Force because your opponent has dispel scrolls to burn.

Chance of IF without miscast is 19634076 in 60466176 = 32.5%
Chance of IF after miscast is 9751140 in 362797096 = 2.7%

All up, you have a 1 in 3 chance of pulling off a game winning manoeuvre with that single cast. In a bigger game get your other 4th level shaman to double dip and it becomes nearly impossible to defend. And of course, even if you miss out on IF, without dispel scrolls it is hard to defend repeated casts at such high power.


My main complaint is that Waaagh affects an unlimited number of units over an unlimited range. Fix that and I don't have a problem with it.

Mad Makz
03-02-2006, 03:43
I can certainly see that Waaaagghh doesn't scale particularly well to higher points games (If you're playing 3000 points plus then it's unlimited effect is going to be greater than the range at what it was probably playtested at.)

Sambojin
05-02-2006, 05:45
Hehehehe, I remember a game where me and a friend of mine were getting this spell off twice a turn in a 4x3000pt game (2 teams, we were high magic). Every light thing on the board destroyed itself vs the empire infantry/gunline, everthing else cruised on through by turn 3.

Its like sitting back and thinking, "Animosity isnt enough, I want MY army to be less in my control than a Khorne one." Yes it broke the game as an exercise in strategic thinking, yes it was funny as hell.

speedygogo
05-02-2006, 07:14
The Waagh spell overides the inability to charge. It is by nature a magic exception. Slaanesh Tomb Kings and Vampires all have similar spells. Ghouls are a living unit in a VC army that does moves with a Danse Macarbe all the time after running .

Da GoBBo
05-02-2006, 19:09
It pleases me very much. To keep it simple, one 4th level Shaman with 5 dice and the Baduum staff. Assume no Mork Save Us rerolls, and assume we need Irresistable Force because your opponent has dispel scrolls to burn.

Chance of IF without miscast is 19634076 in 60466176 = 32.5%
Chance of IF after miscast is 9751140 in 362797096 = 2.7%

All up, you have a 1 in 3 chance of pulling off a game winning manoeuvre with that single cast. In a bigger game get your other 4th level shaman to double dip and it becomes nearly impossible to defend. And of course, even if you miss out on IF, without dispel scrolls it is hard to defend repeated casts at such high power.


My main complaint is that Waaagh affects an unlimited number of units over an unlimited range. Fix that and I don't have a problem with it.

Ok, It looks nice but I think your maths are a bit dusty. 4th level, can use 4 dice to cast a spell (or 3, I thought it was 3 but lets take 4 and see what happens then).

Lets take a look at you irresistable casting. I think its a good thing beacause you will need it 100% sure, any general who wont use a dispell scroll on whaaagh bein cast on a well positioned horde is dead allready.
4 dice, two sixes and two whatevers as long as it aint two ones. (1/6) * (1/6) * (6/6) * (5/6) * 6 * 100% is a 13.9% change to cast an irresistable spell. 8.3% with three dice.

That's cool but how big is the change you will have your army perfectly alligned at that same moment. Having your army alligned like that is difficult. You weren't only talking about having good position, but about 7 units bein affected AND completing the 2d6" charge succesfully. Chances on that are even slimmer than casting an irresistable spell. I think you wont have it happening one time out of three castings, more like one time out of hunderd, or lets be gentle, one time out of fifty.

Like I said, not overpowered at all, just very happy ones it happens.

Flame
05-02-2006, 19:29
A level 4 can use 5 dice to cast a spell.

Commander X
05-02-2006, 20:22
Which gives (1/6)*(1/6)*(6/6)*(5/6)*(5/6)*(5 nCr 2)*100% which is still only 19.2% chance of getting an IF here. The chance of a Miscast is raised to 27.8% here though, meaning that a Shaman without items that allow him to re-roll/ignore those has a high chance of getting his brains fried...

mageith
05-02-2006, 20:48
The Waagh spell overides the inability to charge.

Egads! Ordinarily this would be true for magic spells. But the spell itself negates that. "...provided they could charge the enemy if it was their Movement phase."

What, do you think that GW just writes extra words for no reason? Certain inabilities to charge last for the whole turn, such as animosity. Other inabilities to charge, such has having charged in the Movement phase might be overridden.



It is by nature a magic exception. Slaanesh Tomb Kings and Vampires all have similar spells.

Similar but without the exception right in the spells own wording.

Mage Ith

sds661
05-02-2006, 22:42
Ok, It looks nice but I think your maths are a bit dusty. 4th level, can use 4 dice to cast a spell

Yeah, I thought you would say that.

Flame has already corrected you regarding the number of dice. As to my maths ... well ... I've double checked and you are right! I made the tiniest error. The percentages should be 31.8% for IF with no miscast and 2.7% after miscast. Doesn't affect the overall thrust of the argument much though.

The calculation is attached.

PS I just got caught this way again last night. Mork Save Us (failed to dispel #@!!, 2 rerolls) followed by Waaagh on 4 dice. He got one 6 and used a reroll to get another. Result: 5 attempted charges of which 4 succeeded. He also had a squabbling unit and a just rallied unit which some on this thread would also have allowed to charge. DEVASTATING in a 6000 pt game.

Da GoBBo
07-02-2006, 11:28
Cool, pm it then (or just show em here) because both commander x and I get a 19,3 percent chance (with 5 dice). As for the overall thrust of the argument, I stick to my point of view. The ability to cast an irresistable spell doesn't count for that much. Posistioning your army correctly will be more difficult. The odds wil be alot worse then those 19,3 percent chance on an irresitable cast, not to mention the 27,8% chance on a miscast. Like said, frying your brain will happen a lot sooner. This means ye cant rely on it to happen (bein irresistable that is). Now we have to take other factor's into account, like the dispelling ability of yer opponent, which he will deffinitly use when an orc player alligns the army well. Allthough I really like the idea, and have adjusted tactics to it in the past, your doomsday scenario is very unlikly to happen.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-02-2006, 11:48
Ghouls are a living unit in a VC army that does moves with a Danse Macarbe all the time after running .


Except for the fact you can't cast it on ghouls... It's cast on an undead unit. And as you said, Ghouls are living, you can't use Dance on them.





What, do you think that GW just writes extra words for no reason?

You don't think so? :p