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samuel44
18-09-2009, 00:24
Heyup, i'm very new to Dwarfs having only played one game so far, i was looking for some advice on the following list. I don't want a gun line army. The idea of this list, is a slow and puroposeful advance with two hard units on either flank and lots of static combat resolution. I will only be playing vampire counts so magic resistance is very important.

Dwarf Lord, Shieldbearer, Shield, Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Might, Rune of Snorri Spangelhelm, Rune of Fire.
-Generally a counter to any hard stuff, Against VP lords and Vargulfs he's got a good chance of doing some damage.

Thane, BSB, Master Rune of Valaya or Stromni Redbeard
- Magic defence, with 6DD and +2 to dispell i hope to stop what i need to. or he will just be static combat resolution.

Thane, Greatweopon, Oathstone, Master Rune of Gromril, MR of Kragg the Grim, Rune of Snorri Spangelhelm, Rune of Fire
-Fairly fighty charecter to hopefully kill anything hard like knights, etc.

Runesmith, Shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking

15 Warriors, Shields, Full Command - to go somewhere down the middle

14 Longbeards, Shields, Full Command, Rune of Batle, Rune of Stoicism - to go with the thane and hold up one flank.

14 Hamerers, Shields, Full Command, Rune of Courage - to go with the lord and BSB, the rune is incase the Lord has to leave - down the middle aswell

15 Slayers, Standard Musician - to hold up the other flank

10 Thunderers - to try and take a few wounds from knights, etc.

Organ Gun
Organ Gun

Points 1999pts

Thanks for any feedback.

Keller
18-09-2009, 13:21
In short, your units are just too small. Undead units all cause Fear, and they will certainly outnumber you with these low numbers. Also, these low numbers in your units means you aren't maximizing combat resolution, which of course the VC will have (+3 ranks, +1 outnumber, possibly a standard vs +1 or 2 ranks & +1 standard) Thus, you will be starting every combat at a loss of CR. While most undead are unlikely to kill many dwarves in combat, you are also unlikely to generate enough combat res to make up the difference. You lose combat, you're Ld 9+ is ignored as fear rules kick in, your expensive units break and are run down by skeletons.

Thin your character pool down to free up points. Cut characters completely and thin down magic choices to free up points to add to your units.

Also, consider a Dragon Slayer character. They're cheap and disposable units (or tool them up for a laugh) but can lock up entire units without worry of fear or the like. Their biggest weakness (lack of protection) is minimalized against VC, who've little ranged attacks and low I, so they can be effective even without any runes. 1 Slayer can charge into an entire infantry regiment and hold them up for quite a while, since you'll out-initiative them, striking first and leaving few (if any) to attack him back.

lcfr
18-09-2009, 14:04
Heyup, i'm very new to Dwarfs having only played one game so far, i was looking for some advice on the following list. I don't want a gun line army. The idea of this list, is a slow and puroposeful advance with two hard units on either flank and lots of static combat resolution. I will only be playing vampire counts so magic resistance is very important..

You've got the right idea in theory; i.e. that Dwarfs generally need static res to win combats. The problem is that the units in this list don't have very high static combat res at all. Additionally, w/the units you've selected and the runes on your characters making the long march towards the enemy will not end well...there's no AoD to increase your manueverability, no gyrocopter to keep the enemy from outflanking you, and no Miners to meet you on the other side! That, and there's no Strollaz's! While the list doesn't have enough long range warmachines to draw the enemy close to you it doesn't have the right ingredients, imo, to be played aggressively either.

Dwarf Lord, Shieldbearer, Shield, Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Might, Rune of Snorri Spangelhelm, Rune of Fire.
-Generally a counter to any hard stuff, Against VP lords and Vargulfs he's got a good chance of doing some damage.

He looks great but he may be the reason why your units are all so small...many people opt not to take lords at 2k because they represent such a big points sink. You're in a tough spot, though, because you don't really have anything else that can kill big nasties...that's usually where cannons, BTs, and even GTs come in.

Plus, since you cant MRChallenge the Undead your Lord will see little to no action, on your terms anyways. Unless your opponent is nuts or new he won't be sending a Varghulf or his general this guy's way, instead, expect to be tarpitted by zombies or skellies while something fast and hard hitting slams your flanks.

Thane, BSB, Master Rune of Valaya or Stromni Redbeard
- Magic defence, with 6DD and +2 to dispell i hope to stop what i need to. or he will just be static combat resolution.

Another huge points sink that isn't totally necessary. The main importance of the BSB should be to provide that sometimes critical re-roll to your units once the enemy hits your line; that said, most players give this guy runic armour to ensure he'll be alive to pass on his benefits. Against a magic heavy force you can't hope to dispel everything, especially Invocation spam. You should focus your DD on the spells that are the most dangerous, and for VC that pretty much means Van Hels.

Thane, Greatweopon, Oathstone, Master Rune of Gromril, MR of Kragg the Grim, Rune of Snorri Spangelhelm, Rune of Fire
-Fairly fighty charecter to hopefully kill anything hard like knights, etc.

This guy looks fine (classic setup is RCleaving, RFury, RStone, shield, and 25pts of whatever else you like, usually MRSwiftness). Only problem again is that you have so many points sunk into characters that the rest of your army is going to suffer for it...nearly 800pts wrapped up in characters! This character also has the same problem as your Lord.

15 Warriors, Shields, Full Command - to go somewhere down the middle

14 Longbeards, Shields, Full Command, Rune of Batle, Rune of Stoicism - to go with the thane and hold up one flank.

Both these units are too small. The Warriors are only generating 3 points of static res but will probably only get 2, since just 1 kill from magic is all it takes for them to lose a rank bonus. That, and Undead infantry blocks that hit you are bound to outnumber you and beat you just w/their own static res. Warrior blocks should never be less than 20 imo, since they are our weakest infantry unit and the ones who most desperately need all the static res they can get.

Your Longbeards will fare only slightly better; after they take some casualties the RStoicism probably won't have them outnumbering the Undead.

14 Hamerers, Shields, Full Command, Rune of Courage - to go with the lord and BSB, the rune is incase the Lord has to leave - down the middle aswell

This unit can afford to be a little smaller due to Stubborn, but it will be pretty rare that your Dwarf Lord will just up and leave; M3 kinda puts a damper on running a character in or out of units, so I'd recommend dropping the RCourage.

15 Slayers, Standard Musician - to hold up the other flank

Standard and musician are a waste of points. Your Slayers will rarely win combat even w/a standard, and they're really best at just tarpitting enemy units.

10 Thunderers - to try and take a few wounds from knights, etc.

Shields, if possible.

Unless your regular VC opponent is a total noob, even an average VC force will really wreck this list. Your combat blocks are too small and your army is too slow to seriously attempt to come to grips w/the enemy by marching across the board. There's nothing wrong w/wanting to play Dwarfs aggressively but you need the right tools for the job...right now, the list doesn't really excel at anything; shooting is low, the number of combat blocks is made irrelevant by their small size, and your army will take 4 turns, at best, to make its way to the enemy deployment zone.

Imo you need to completely rewrite this list and focus on what you want to do and what phases of the game you want to do well in; if your goal is to bound towards the enemy and meet them head on then you need to think of what you have available to you that can help you do this; if you decide you want to stay back and force the enemy to you, you need more guns (more guns does not equal gunline, mind you), etc.

samuel44
18-09-2009, 16:06
Thanks for the advice, it is really udeful that you took the time to go through all my choices. I've refined the list above slightly, spending a lot less on charecters, no lord just four heroes coming to 571pts. I've then buffed up all the units so they are much bigger, i like the idea of using dragon slayers to hold up entire units for a few turns.


Thane, Oathstone, BSB, Master of Gomril, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Fire - Designed to survive, and put out a bit of damage, should be able to kill a vampire hero in a few turns.

Runesmith, Shield, Greatweopon, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Spellbreaking - Once again, should survive, plus scrolls to stop the key spells.

Dragon Slayer, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Fury, Master Rune of Swiftness - With 5A, WS6, S5 ASF he should survive against a big block for quite a while. Good chance of taking out a vampire aswell.

Dragon Slayer, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Cleaving, Master Rune of Swiftness - Slightly designed for harder targets, e.g. Blood Knights, 4A, WS6 S6 ASF attacks. If i could find the points would it be worth upgrading him to a Daemon Slayer?

Warriors (25 men), Shields, Full Command

Longbeards (25 men), Shields, Full Command, Rune of Batle, Rune of Stoicism

Thunderers (10 men), Shields

Hamerers (14 men), Shields, Full Command, Rune of Courage

Slayers (15 men)

Organ Gun
Organ Gun

1993pts 5 Dispell Dice and 2 Scrolls


I'm farely sure the vampire counts will be coming towards me at full speed so i thought turn 2 or 3 combat would be expected. Why would a vamprie army stand back and let you walk to them, they have no shooting and excell in long grinding combats!

Any better?

Keller
18-09-2009, 16:16
This second list is much better. One problem though. Both Slayers are armed with the MRoSwiftness. Master Runes are unique and can only appear once in a list. Not to worry, though, as you will out-initiative most all undead anyway, so you would only strike last if charged.

I would suggest taking the Rune of Balance on your Runesmith; its just too handy to pass up. Most of what VC cast are not spells that you'll need a scroll for; they are usually low casting values, but plenty of them!

You could shave a few more points off of characters runes if you need to, but everything looks pretty good to me.

lcfr
18-09-2009, 17:13
Runesmith, Shield, Greatweopon, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Spellbreaking - Once again, should survive, plus scrolls to stop the key spells.

I always take my Runesmiths the way this guy was previously set up, w/a shield, scroll, and MRBalance. I find it's better to have a Runesmith w/a 2+ save in combat than one w/just a 4+ and a GW. If this guy winds up against regular undead infantry, being S4 will get him by and he'll kill skellies/zombies just about as well as he would w/a GW. Plus, the enemy will have a harder time killing him. If you do keep this setup, I'd recommend losing the RRes and GW for another scroll.

Dragon Slayer, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Fury, Master Rune of Swiftness - With 5A, WS6, S5 ASF he should survive against a big block for quite a while. Good chance of taking out a vampire aswell.

Dragon Slayer, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Cleaving, Master Rune of Swiftness - Slightly designed for harder targets, e.g. Blood Knights, 4A, WS6 S6 ASF attacks. If i could find the points would it be worth upgrading him to a daemon Slayer?

Never ever ever take a Daemon Slayer, there is no good reason to blow that many points on a character that can die so easily, especially when a Dragonslayer can do nearly as well. Your slayers don't need so many weapon runes either...a good way to keep the pts cost of a character down is remembering that just because you can tool him up doesn't mean you always have to. Dragonslayers especially, since they come in at a mere 50pts, don't need tons of weapon runes to be effective tarpits.


I'm farely sure the vampire counts will be coming towards me at full speed so i thought turn 2 or 3 combat would be expected. Why would a vamprie army stand back and let you walk to them, they have no shooting and excell in long grinding combats!

The way you described "advancing" in your opening post made it sound like you were planning to meet them mid-table. If I were a VC player and my Dwarf opponent made the mistake of actually moving closer to me on the first turn I would take the opportunity to just stand still for a bit and raise more dead and/or throw out Gaze of Nagash. Granted, 4 turns was an exaggeration but my point is that you shouldn't even bother to move his way, you're just exposing yourself in most cases.

Now what follows is all just my personal opinion, but..Typically Dwarf lists follow one of three themes: 1) gunline. screw it, it sucks for your opponent and you'll lose all your friends.

2) balanced. so you play to dwarf strengths and minimize their weaknesses, though not to the extreme of a gunline...this means you need maybe a missile unit and a couple long-range warmachines to persuade your enemy to come your way, and then your hitherto stationary combat blocks take on what's left.

3) aggressive. rare but not impossible....you'll need at least a few of the following ingredients imo: Anvil of Doom, Miners, Rangers, Gyrocopter, Strollaz's Rune, DoW cavalry or ogres.

Just my 2 cents and I'm sure some Dwarf players will disagree w/me...this is pretty much the framework I see successful Dwarf lists falling under. At the moment, yours gravitates between a balanced list and an aggressive one but doesn't have any of the hallmarks of either...this is why I feel there may be a problem.

Dark Aly
18-09-2009, 21:40
with a more attacking dwarf army gyrocopters are essential. you can slow the enemy army to almost the same speed as you preventing him from out manouvering you. also the steam cannon can seriously reduce the amount of skellies/zombies and/or ghouls and therefore make it less likelythat they will outnumber you.

a couple of burning bolt throwers are handy if they bring the regen banner (remember they can't have the same rune set-up). i find making one Str 7 and BS 4 puts the fear of god in any black coach's and with a little luck/skill can flank shoot a unit of blood knights very well indeed (use gyrocopters as a last resort to expose their flank- frenzy is your friend here)

iron breakers or hammerers can halt even tooled up graveguard units for a while (as can large units of troll slayers- giant slayers are goog as challenges can stop vampires from diminishing the unit too quick)

dispel dice are more important than scrolls (see above comments)

vanhels must be dispelled to stop newly risen zombies from swamping your gyros

Oh, and the blessing of the dice gods never goes amiss