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IcedAnimals
19-09-2009, 03:28
So I remember in previous discussions on forums someone mentioned that Gamesworkshop had someone say something along the lines of "we are a modeling company primarily and the rules are not our main concern" However when i mentioned that to someone the other day they asked where I had gotten that quote from. I wanted something a little more concrete than "a forum" So I was wondering if anyone actually knows where that quote came from.

Joewrightgm
19-09-2009, 03:32
I believe it was in a "Standard Bearer" Article, I think by rick priestly.

The Farmer
19-09-2009, 04:02
I thought it was by Jervis.

The Red Pilgrim
19-09-2009, 04:55
I'd be interested to see the source as well; interesting stuff.

Orktavius
19-09-2009, 06:51
whoever said it I can't disagree with em...GW doesn't make money on the rules they make money on the models. The rules are just a way to sell models so they try to keep it relatively fun for your average gamer ....aka not the tourny/super competitive player

IcedAnimals
19-09-2009, 07:29
I thought it was by Jervis.

I believe I heard it was Jervis before as well but I can't for the life of me find the source of it.

kazkal
19-09-2009, 07:32
Without their game they wouldn't have a company...ya some people enjoy just painting but people buy the models to play the game.

Orktavius
19-09-2009, 07:44
aye...and the game lets em sell models....IE the more people want a unit either cause it's stompy/cool/borken/pron for the pron god the more they will sell of it

FYI....super dread is the best thing EVER

The Red Pilgrim
19-09-2009, 07:46
Without their game they wouldn't have a company...ya some people enjoy just painting but people buy the models to play the game.

They make these broken 'dexes to sell said models - they are most assuredly a miniatures company first and foremost.

chamelion 6
19-09-2009, 07:53
I don't know about that specific quote, but ages ago, I believe I remember one of the Priestly Bros stating the same thing. The minitures part of the company preceeded the rules by some years.

The rules were intended to give many of the special models the company produced at the time a purpose.........

the1stpip
19-09-2009, 09:04
You surely don't mean that the Valks were undercosted to make people buy more...?

Kriegfreak
19-09-2009, 09:37
I think the thing the OP was referring to was indeed said, but a lot of people are taking it out of context and reading into it. I think what they meant by it as others have pointed out that GW is first and foremost a miniatures/model company. Nearly all of there attention goes towards this end. The fact there is a game with rules is just icing on the cake. That isn't to say they don't care about the gaming aspect but its certainly #2 on the "to do list". Recent codexes have proven that while the quality of the models is getting better and more diverse, a lot of people feel the codexes are declining in quality. Certainly it can be said there is less room for customization of your own personalized force for some of the newer dexes. Personally I approve of the models first game second mentality they have and are taking, though I wouldn't mind if rules and codexes had a little more thought put into them - most especially in the rules/balance area.

Wintermute
19-09-2009, 09:44
I've moved this thread to Other GW Discussion.

Wintermute

Griefbringer
19-09-2009, 10:22
I don't know about that specific quote, but ages ago, I believe I remember one of the Priestly Bros stating the same thing. The minitures part of the company preceeded the rules by some years.


I take it you are referring to Perry bros?

AFAIK the miniature side of the business started around 1979, but the miniature games that later became flagships were only released later on: WHFB around 1983 and 40K in 1987.

Condottiere
19-09-2009, 10:24
Chicken and Egg Syndrome.

Or is it a symbiosis, where the health of one affects the sales of the other?

zedeyejoe
19-09-2009, 10:27
Yes it is the models that make the money, the rules are just a vehicle to sell the models.

Think computer (rules), software (models).

lanrak
19-09-2009, 14:06
HI all.
Tom Kirby Chairman of GW PLC , was quoted as saying '... we are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers...we are a minatures company first and formost...'
And Jervis Johnson was quoted as saying '...the games are just the icing on the cake...'
(These quotes are from memory an I dont have acess to the sourese material just now.)

Mind you Jervis seems to think that everyone just collects and paint loads of Citadel Minatures, and the games are just a reason to dust then off to give tham an airing occasionaly ...:rolleyes:

Which comes as a shock to people who think GAMES Workshop are more focused on gamers, and gameply issues.:eek:

TTFN
lanrak.

Condottiere
19-09-2009, 16:27
WotC was originally just intending to sell some picture cards to collectors. A bunch of guys in the office just came up with a few rules in their spare time.

ashc
19-09-2009, 19:33
This has been known for a looooong time.

White Dwarf got changed to the Monthly Miniatures Magazine around the time a lot of this was said.

Put simply, if you want a company where game comes before models, Games Workshop probably isn't the company you are looking for... :(

Hellebore
20-09-2009, 05:53
Chicken and Egg Syndrome.

Except of course, like many other 'philosophical' statements, this one actually has an answer. The egg. Unless you're a creationist in which case the chicken because god made the animals first, so they laid the eggs later.

But like all things, these questions have answers.

I believe if was Jervis talking about how great miniatures are. It may have been in an article expounding the hobby elements over the gaming elements.

Hellebore

Dai-Mongar
20-09-2009, 06:20
WotC was originally just intending to sell some picture cards to collectors. A bunch of guys in the office just came up with a few rules in their spare time.

I don't think you're giving Dr Garfield due credit there. :p
Back OT, they surely make more money selling minis than rules. That's why rules get updated more regularly than minis do.

Condottiere
20-09-2009, 08:11
It depends also how many resources have to be committed to update the rules and see how they effect the overall game.

The secrecy involving this process seems not only counter-productive, but actually may eat up more money then attempting to do it openly. Unless, they are fine tuning the rules to specifically promote certain miniatures, in which case, I wouldn't want my customers to know what I'm up to before I can present it as fait accompli.

Tarax
20-09-2009, 09:57
Whether you sell rules or models, in both cases you are a 'game' company.

Any manufacturer of a chess board set is producing a game even though they don't sell the rules. (Disclaimer: Although they may have put the rules in there somewhere.)

It is true that GW (ie Citadel) started with producing and selling models and that they produced the rules later. Today they are forged together. Back in the day there were several game systems for which the models could be used. Now they have a rule set for which you can get models.
There are few other companies that sell models to be used for GW rules and there are few companies that sell rules for which GW models can be used.

susu.exp
20-09-2009, 12:57
GW actually started by selling rules for RPGs in 1975. In 1979 they founded Citadel as a sub-company to produce minatures. This coincided with the start of White Dwarf. In the early 80s the decision was made to come up with a set of Wargaming rules for Citadel minatures - Warhammer
In other words: First there were RPG rules. Then there were models to use with RPGs. Then the idea of producing tabletop rules for these minis came around.

Now, the models are to a great degree what makes their business. Somebody who doesn´t like models per se, but likes SciFi or Fantasy and tactical games will turn to computer games. If you do not enjoy models, tabletops aren´t for you. And I´m sure everybody in the hobby has "the model which made me go: I want some of that". I got into Epic back in the day after seeing a Mega Gargant, Squiggoths and Bad Moon Weirdboy towers. The rules came later, it was those models that made me want to invest time in learning them in the first place. In the SB article in question Jervis discusses his daughter IIRC and how she doesn´t want to play (and maybe she´s simply too young for that), but how she loves some of the models.

To put that in a shorter way: Nobody knows the rules to GW games before they know a model (with the notable exception of a buddy of mine, whom I taught E:A on a beach using pebbles and shells). But a lot of people know a model, without knowing the rules. The models are what gets you, the rules are a part of what keeps you. Add that they make most money from the sale of models and modeling supplies and it makes sense for the company to think of itself as selling minis. Rules are just some very clever adverts...

Graf of Orlock
20-09-2009, 13:04
GW actually started by selling rules for RPGs in 1975.

Didn't they actually start off selling chess sets and the like that they made themselves, then got into selling D&D and the like when they realised how popular it was in the US?

blongbling
21-09-2009, 15:22
Actually Citadel was a Newark based miniatures company before GW bought them.

I wouldn't confuse the fact that the old GW imported and sold board games and RPG's with writing their own. It wasn't until after they took Citadel on board that Rik did the freebie giveaway rules that we all know today.

precinctomega
21-09-2009, 15:45
It was mostly Tom Kirby, in the Chairman's preamble to the 200(5?) Annual Report.

R.

Olith
21-09-2009, 15:49
WotC was originally just intending to sell some picture cards to collectors. A bunch of guys in the office just came up with a few rules in their spare time.

This is incorrect. Richard Garfield created Magic before Wizards were involved. it is all covered on the wikipedia article.

Whitehorn
21-09-2009, 15:55
I've heard the quotes and seem to say them a lot, but their About Us page seems to think otherwise:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=9600007


Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful tabletop fantasy and futuristic battle-games company in the world.

Our business is about helping mighty armies to meet headlong on the field of battle. At our HQ in Nottingham, in the UK, we design, manufacture and retail the vast range of Citadel Miniatures plastic and metal soldiers and rulebooks, which are the foundation of an almost infinite hobby.

RobC
21-09-2009, 18:09
Games Workshop and Citadel were at one time two separate companies. GW began as a retail enterprise, selling games by mail order and then opening shops. Citadel was a miniature-making company, which produced some games rules to support their lines.

It was Citadel that bought Games Workshop, not vice versa. At this point Citadel's boss Bryan Ansell took charge, and the focus moved from RPGs to wargames - miniatures were (and are) much more profitable than RPGs, though the gradual shift from a general 'games' shop to one that sold only GW products (and then only wargames) left something of a nasty taste in the mouth of the UK's gaming community; at one time GW was the chain of gaming shops in the country.

From a hard-nosed CEO's perspective, GW is now about making and selling miniatures. Sure, the games are there to provide a structure, but the actual profit comes from shifting tonnes of plastic and metal.

That's not to suggest that GW should forget that it makes games. I doubt it would enjoy such an exclusive niche if it shifted to a position where it only made miniatures - the games tie people into buying GW stuff. And it should never be seen as an excuse to make sub-par products.

Cherrystone
21-09-2009, 18:25
I buy alot of miniatures for games that i consider to be good/interesting rule systems, so for me the rules always come first. The last few years this has been less and less with GW.

So the better the game the more miniatures are sold!

Emperor's Grace
21-09-2009, 20:14
Didn't they actually start off selling chess sets and the like that they made themselves, then got into selling D&D and the like when they realised how popular it was in the US?

I thought their very first offering was chinese checkers... IIRC something about buying wood trivets and drilling holes in them to make the board or such.

Graf of Orlock
21-09-2009, 21:24
I thought their very first offering was chinese checkers... IIRC something about buying wood trivets and drilling holes in them to make the board or such.

That'll be the "and the like...", then. I knew it was "che..." and my head just went to "chess". There was a history of GW printed in one of the anniversary White Dwarf's years ago with this in, I'm sure of it. Possibly issue 200 as I was still buying it regularly back then.

RobC
21-09-2009, 22:49
There's a good early history of Games Workshop on Ian Livingstone's biography (http://www.eidosinteractive.co.uk/ian_livingstone/biography/part1.html) on the Eidos website.

Condottiere
22-09-2009, 00:46
This is incorrect. Richard Garfield created Magic before Wizards were involved. it is all covered on the wikipedia article.


HI all.
Tom Kirby Chairman of GW PLC , was quoted as saying '... we are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers...we are a minatures company first and formost...'
And Jervis Johnson was quoted as saying '...the games are just the icing on the cake...'
(These quotes are from memory an I dont have acess to the sourese material just now.)

Mind you Jervis seems to think that everyone just collects and paint loads of Citadel Minatures, and the games are just a reason to dust then off to give tham an airing occasionaly ...:rolleyes:

Which comes as a shock to people who think GAMES Workshop are more focused on gamers, and gameply issues.:eek:

TTFN
lanrak.


WotC was originally just intending to sell some picture cards to collectors. A bunch of guys in the office just came up with a few rules in their spare time.

That's the sequence and context.