PDA

View Full Version : Daemons - A thorny, spiky issue...



Partisan Rimmo
19-09-2009, 12:05
Hello Warseer Fantasy boards!

I'm a near 10 year 40K player, who's done many a specialist game in his spare time, but up to this day I have only ever had one Fantasy army (Skaven) which I sold due to disinterest.

I've decided to get back into Fantasy, and am pretty settled on Daemons being what I want (at least till the Chaos Dwarfs return!!). Having checked the boards, it seems pretty apparent that most people veiw the Chaos Daemons with horror (quite rightly), and though I greatly enjoy competitive play, I don't want to be overly enraging people. I always like to keep things interesting.

So I decided to ask for a bit of help, since I don't quite grasp the Fantasy metagame. What's to be avoided in making my list? Any special recommendations for what to include? Let's assume we're working to 2000pts.

From what I can tell, the real things that get people are Tzeentch based lists. I'm going to mix my gods (with many luscious conversions), but it seems almost hard to build a daemons army list that DOESN'T draw cries of cheese. Does that invalidate most of the anti daemon arguements?

Will post an initial list soon.

w3rm
19-09-2009, 12:33
If you want to be competative but still have a fun game here is what you DON'T take:
-Bloodthirster with Obsidian armour most everything else is fine.
-More than 12 Flesh Hounds
- More than 6 Flamers
- No special charachters
- Do not spam siren song

As long as you do this you should be good. Also use some screamers as they are a bit over priced. A nice list might look like.

KoS- 635
Spirit Swallower, Level 3 Wizard

Herald of Tzeentch- 205
Level 2 Wizard, Power Vortex, Chariot of Tzeentch

Herald of Khorne- 175
BSB, BAnner of unholy Victory

20 Bloodletters- 264
Banner, Standard

19 Bloodletters- 252
Banner, Champion

20 Horrors- 240
Level 2 Wizard

6 Flesh hounds- 175

4 Flamers- 140


Total 2006

Ok so you got some pretty good magic offence with 9 Power Dice you should be able to sling some spells around(correct me if I'm wrong I think it might be 12) and with the flammers having some ranged support you can force the enemy to come to you. USe the KoS to harras your enemy and slow down there lines while you coordinate charges. USe the Chariot to fly around and harras the enemy and maybe even get a rear charge while your at it. Dont be scared to throw your flamers into combat. They can still put a dent in the enemy with 2 str 5 attacks and 2 wounds. Just be careful and think and you should be good.

shartmatau
19-09-2009, 16:20
I had some pretty good success with a daemon army that was very mixed with its units.

In general I played with:
either a Keeper of Secrets (fighty plus a little magic) or Lord of Change (magic heavy)
A Nurgle Herald (BSB & level 1 wizard)
A Slannesh herald on a mount with Many Arms.

12 Daemonettes
15 Plaguebearers
12 Bloodletters
12 Bloodletters

4 Screamers
6 Fleshhounds

2 Beasts of nurgle
1 beast of Nurgle

It doesn't sound like much. But you get a couple tarpits (beasts and plaguebearers).
The bloodletters hang around the sides of the plaguebearers. The daemonettes would swoop around and flank whoever the bloodletters were fighting.

The flesh hounds and screamers would protect my flanks, and the hounds added my own flank charges.

The keeper and the mounted slanesh hero would charge the same units, often bashing it into breaking with a flank or rear charge.

Most importantly, I learned that Siren Song isn't necessary and that what people complain most about is multiples of the same thing. So if you just choose a bit of this and a bit of that it should work out ok and nobody will complain.

Partisan Rimmo
19-09-2009, 16:37
Interesting stuff.

Regarding the second list, doesn't the mounted Slaanesh herald get picked off by itself, or am I think with too much of a 40K mindset? Also, what is the BSB the Nurgle Herald has?

Are you a fool if you skip the Lord choice at 2000pts?

Also, I did like the idea of Nurgle Beasts....

Will post my first list in a minute or two.

EDIT:

Ok, here's how it rolls

2 Tzeentch Heralds on Disks

20 Bloodletters with Full Command
20 Plaguebearers with Full Command and Seeping Decay
20 Daemonettes with Full Command
20 Horrors, Icon of Sorcery

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

4 Flamers
3 Slaanesh Fiends


No fancy wargear on the wizards at the mo. Do they need it?

Falkman
19-09-2009, 17:18
BSB means Battle Standard Bearer.
I think the list you posted is a good list to play more friendly games with, you have some big units that will take some time to kill, and you got some hitty stuff, but you're pretty easy on characters and magic.
All in all it seems like a pretty balanced list.
I'd recommend staying away from Greater Daemons unless you face things of a similar power level (dragons), since they have very few counters unless people are tooling their list specifically to deal with them.

weirdo2590
19-09-2009, 17:19
I like it soley for the carnival approach to your core choices.

Supposed 'cheese'-wise your characters are more than fine and I cant help but wonder if your evn lacking in that department. Thats probably just because every demon list in the world seems to max out on characters these days.

Flesh hounds wise your realy skirting the point where you're using too many for fairness. This realy shouldnt matter however as the rest of your list is fairly tame and I can help but wonder as a new fantasy player than you've failed to consider what they're actualy for. They seem awfully unsupported to me.

Partisan Rimmo
19-09-2009, 17:35
Well, my rough mentality with the Hounds was that I'd need some cavalry, and they seemed more versatile than Bloodcrushers. I was probably going to intercept weaker enemy units and pound some flanks with them. Is that the done thing?

It's interesting that some people suggest I'm low on characters. I'm guessing it's quite common to use a lot of Heralds with wierd abilities then? The wizards may need a little fine tuning, wargear wise.

I suppose as a 40K player I'm not good at judging the amount of magic to use or the effect it can have. I'm gonna generate, what, 9 Power Dice? I actually only know the 6th ed. magic rules, but I doubt they changed that much.

EDIT: Thinking about it, the Fiends are a form of Cavalry too, aren't they? Those things look ferocious with a charge range like that...

The Beast Walks Among Us
19-09-2009, 17:42
I suppose as a 40K player I'm not good at judging the amount of magic to use or the effect it can have. I'm gonna generate, what, 9 Power Dice? I actually only know the 6th ed. magic rules, but I doubt they changed that much.

The biggest change in magic from 6th to 7th is that the army no longer generates a "common" power dice pool. You get your basic 2 dice, and each wizard generates his own dice, which only he can use. This change was done so that, for example, you can't use a bunch of lower level wizards as dice generators for a level 4.

PeG
19-09-2009, 18:14
almost all daemon core are really poor unless they have a herald in their unit in which case some of them gets really good. Plaguebearers without Nurgle herald usually dont do anything. They dont hit hard/plenty enough to kill things and T4, 5+ ward doesnt do much for their protection. With a herald they get regeneration and becomes a tarpit that many dislike.

Daemonettes gets always strike first by the herald which makes them more difficult to kill but Slaneesh is still considered to be relatively friendly as long as you dont make a so called leadership bomb which usually includes the Masque, Banner that lowers LD of nearby units and Slaneesh magic to lower LD even more. Combining all these can take you through a game without any combats since noone will be able to pass their LD test to actually charge you. This is of course not very useful against armies that are immune to psychology such as undead but can be lethal against everybody else.

As for bloodletters I dont think I have heard anyone complain about them.

The most hated lists usually consist of two min sized horror units, lots of flamers, lots of hounds, sometimes a plaguebearer bunker with at least one herald and lots of points in characters.

Partisan Rimmo
19-09-2009, 18:48
Great post PeG!

Just reread the Locus rules, and I can see what you mean. Perhaps I'll switch out something for a Nurgle Herald, though I can't quite think of what. I'd be concerned though that the Plaguebearers would be too slow to ever reach anything. It'd end up being a lot of points in one block.

I suppose I could take the Core units down from their 20 model size. That is pretty big. Is that a good idea, or not?

Fantasy seems a little easier to break as a game compared to 40K. Even the really hardcore lists can methodically destroyed in a 40K tourney I've found. I know I said I didn't want to go over beardy, but I still want to be capable of defeating anyone I meet.

PeG
19-09-2009, 19:05
20 is big for anything else than horrors that may come in large units and potentially plaguebearers that also sometimes comes as a big bunker unit with multiple characters (which many really hate so dont bring that). Other core is often seen as units of 12 ie 2 ranks of 6 to maximize attacks against units that are 5 wide.
As for breaking fantasy this is something that is easy to do with daemons and some other armies, can be done by skaven, empire etc and close to impossible with Ogre kingdom, beasts and maybe some additional armies.

Instead of bringing a nurgle herald maybe instead drop the plaguebearers (this will make you a lot more popular among your opponents).

with two units of fleshhound, flamers and a horror unit you are already close to what many will start complaining about so if you make your core blocks stronger maybe you should consider dropping some of these units as well.

Partisan Rimmo
19-09-2009, 19:52
I feel this entire business is verging on ridiculous. If I take a Plaguebearer unit, people will complain. If I take more than two Fleshhound units, or if they are big units, people will complain. If I take both flamers and horrors people will complain. This is a decent chunk of the whole army list which is now considered dodgy. I mean, there aren't that many possible combinations!

Perhaps opponants just need to man up and play the game. Or maybe Daemons are broke and I'm losing all faith in the game.


Back on topic, units of 12 feel.... fragile. I dunno. That sort of thing is done all the time in 40K, so I don't know why it suddenly feels wrong now. Maybe my time with Skaven has left me feeling naked without rank bonus. That's probably it. I mean, I could split the four core into more units probably...

So what are the most commonly seen methods of using Heralds?

PeG
19-09-2009, 19:59
Daemons are widely considered broken so yes people will complain but of course as long as you and your opponent has fun go for it. I also play daemons now and then (usually mono lists). With most armies you need to make an effort to break them (and with some you cant) but daemons is the other way around you need to make an effort to make a friendly list. Daemons dont have any bad units but a few of them such as the daemon prince is less good compared to the other options.

If you play in a tourny without any comp restrictions and where anything goes Daemons will usually take almost all of the top positions.

As for heralds I usually use them in units to use the locus rules.

But in contrast to what some people might say it is possible to build Daemon lists that are fun to play with and against and that also requires tactics and proper movement to win with.

PeG
19-09-2009, 20:18
and of course you can take any unit without any complaints. The problem comes when you combine them. If you take flamers and horrors in a Tzeentch dominated list most people wont complain unless you also take more than one unit of hounds etc

Falkman
19-09-2009, 20:23
No one really complains if you bring a big block of Plaguebearers, it's when you put a herald in there that they become insane.
The other core troops are quite reasonable and I don't think anyone could ever complain about you bringing lots of them.
Basically the stuff that is considered broken/cheesy/too good in a Daemon list are:
Greater Daemons.
Certain Greater banners.
Heralds of Nurgle.
Excessive amounts of Fleshhounds and Flamers.
Lots of magic.

If you stay clear of that I don't think there's much to complain about really.
Yes, Daemons are a hard army by default, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun to play with or against,
just avoid the worst combinations and you should be able to play without feeling bad or people hating you.

I personally use a list that looks like this:

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: level 2 wizard, Etherblade, Winged horror, Torment blade
495 pts

Herald of Slaanesh: level 1 wizard, Etherblade, Steed of Slaanesh
215 pts

Herald of Tzeentch: Battle Standard Bearer, Banner of unholy victory, Iridescent corona, Burning chariot of Tzeentch
275 pts

21 Daemonettes of Slaanesh: Full command
282 pts

20 Daemonettes of Slaanesh: Full command
270 pts

15 Pink horrors of Tzeentch: Full command, Icon of sorcery
225 pts

5 Seekers of Slaanesh: Full command, Siren standard
175 pts

3 Screamers of Tzeentch
90 pts

2 Fiends of Slaanesh
110 pts

3 Flamers of Tzeentch
105 pts

It's a pretty competitive list, almost everything moves at very high speeds and so can choose their battles. The downside is that most of my troops are very fragile.
As you can see I have chosen to only use Slaanesh and Tzeentch troops, this is because these two gods are my favourites.
I've also made a Khorne/Nurgle list and a pure Slaanesh list, PM me if you want to see them as well, for inspiration on balanced but still fun Daemon lists.

shartmatau
19-09-2009, 23:29
Well you should really just play what you like. My army came out of the models i had, then i added a few other things.

Honestly people complain a bit too much over daemon armies. There are a few things that are quite good, so just like any army build in moderation. Dont take too many of the same things and your fine.

As to your list you posted above (Rimmo) I think its alright. I dont like multiple ranks in daemons as I dont think they need them to tie combats. I prefer wider frontage and just waiting to get your flank charge.

As for my lone slannesh hero on a mount. Yes sometimes she gets shot at and killed but most of the time no. Most people think its better to shoot at my units or the Keeper. She also often hides behind the keeper to avoid line of sight to her from shooting units.