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The Anarchist
19-09-2009, 18:29
So i found an old map of the Galaxy of the Imperium, and it struck me that segementum pacificus was smaller than the other sections substantialy, and Tempestus was also very small in comparison to Ultima.
so having looked at this map i see that the eye of Terror is in obscuras, and there is lots from the Ultramar Empire and the hive fleets in Ultima. so how active are the other 3 areas including Solar, when it comes to battles. I'm sure it has its fair share, but anything gargantuan on the scale of other segmentums?

Also when looking at the size of the Imperium I now really struggle to see how the Tau tiny little empire can be considered even a player on the glatic scale that seems to be implied by their involvment in ever campagin?

a smaller point yet is there any reason given as to why the Astronomican can give light to the far reaches of Ultima segmentum as far as the ghost stars, but can't light as far or into the Halo zone?

Brother Raziel
19-09-2009, 19:29
I think Segmentum Solar has Armageddon in it, so there have been at least three massive Waaagh!s.

Argastes
19-09-2009, 20:31
As for the question of the Astronomican's extent, you're right; it's broadcast from Earth, so if it extended radially from Earth to an equal distance in all directions, it would extend far beyond the edge of the galaxy in the "west", and would also extend into hemispherical regions above and below the galactic plane, thus reaching loud-and-clear for tens of thousands of light years into the halo stars.

But, here's a thought: Maybe the astronomican's signal is deliberately manipulated so that it extends further in some directions than in orders, in order to maximize it's reach in areas where safe navigation is desired (e.g. the most of the galaxy proper) at the cost of minimizing it's reach in places where no-one cares about sending ships (e.g. the halo stars). Thus the reason it extends further eastwards than westwards is that it's signal is deliberately made stronger in an easterly direction, since more of the galaxy lies in that direction and it has to carry further in order to provide coverage for all the areas that humans want to send ships to. Human ships travel shorter distances westward from Earth, since the edge of the galaxy is closer in that direction, thus the westward signal is made weaker because it doesn't have to extend as far. Similarly, it's signal in the "upwards" and "downwards" directions (N-S-E-W fail us here...), above and below the galactic plane, is made weaker (thus doesn't extend as far as it does in the galactic plane) because ships rarely have any reason to venture into the halo stars and thus it's not important to have the Astronomican's signal extend into them. Basically, the signal strength is varied directionally, so that it extends to all the places it's needed while not wasting power extending into the places it's not.

So under this arrangement, if you saw a three-dimensional volumetric rendering of area covered by the Astronomican's signal, it would resemble a flattened ball, roughly co-incident with the galactic plane, with Earth not in it's center but rather towards it's "western" edge.


EDIT: You mention that the Tau empire is comparatively tiny, but also list the Empire of Ultramar as one of the things contributing to all the action in the Ultima Segmentum; bear in mind that the Empire of Ultramar is actually utterly tiny in galactic terms, far smaller even than the Tau empire. It only comprises seven or eight star systems out of the 1,000,000+ of the Imperium! I think the only reason we hear so much about it is that it's the home of the Ultramarines. It always bugged me that the old 2nd Edition galactic map showed the individual star systems of the Ultramar Empire, since by doing so, it made the Ultramar Empire several thousand light years across and yet the other systems are all supposed to be quite close to Macragge. The only reason they make up the Empire of Ultramar, IIRC, is that they were the neighboring systems that Guilleman was able to bring into alliances with Macragge before the Emperor found him. If they are really as widely dispersed as that old map showed them, there would be hundreds or thousands of other inhabited systems closer to Macragge. The Empire of Ultramar should look like a fly-speck (if it's visible at all) on a galactic map.

Col. Tartleton
19-09-2009, 21:27
The "Ultramar" is a series of well defended planets, the crowning jewel of which is impragnable Macragge. These eight systems are scattered out across the region with the Ultramarines drawing recruits primarily from these worlds. The Ranking Marines are also the sovereigns of these systems and are technically their planetary governors even though they may rarely be there. As a result they are all ruled by steward governors.

The "Greater Ultramar" as I term it, is better described as a power block of Imperial Planets in the Eastern Fringe who the Ultramarines hold influence with. There are potentially thousands of planets in this "Greater Ultramar" and they are all aligned with the Ultramarines to an extent. If a major conflict erupts in this region of space either the Ultramarines of one of their many Guard Regiments will be funneled in to return order.

It is also obvious to me that the astronomican is relatively pointed toward the galactic east in order to maintain with most of the Imperium. You can still see the Astronomicon from other directions, but it is positioned to illuminate the majority of human controlled worlds. It would be a waste to illuminate the Eye of Terror for example.

Lord Cook
20-09-2009, 03:11
how active are the other 3 areas including Solar, when it comes to battles.

Well Segmentum Pacificus is home to the Sabbat Worlds, which have undergone a very recent and absolutely vast crusade by the Imperium to recapture hundreds of systems back from Chaos. It forms the literary backdrop to most of Dan Abnett's books. Similarly, Segmentum Tempestus is the area under invasion by Hive Fleet Leviathan, and the massive ongoing struggle between Leviathan and the and Orks.

Condottiere
20-09-2009, 09:39
The "Ultramar" is a series of well defended planets, the crowning jewel of which is impragnable Macragge. These eight systems are scattered out across the region with the Ultramarines drawing recruits primarily from these worlds. The Ranking Marines are also the sovereigns of these systems and are technically their planetary governors even though they may rarely be there. As a result they are all ruled by steward governors.

The "Greater Ultramar" as I term it, is better described as a power block of Imperial Planets in the Eastern Fringe who the Ultramarines hold influence with. There are potentially thousands of planets in this "Greater Ultramar" and they are all aligned with the Ultramarines to an extent. If a major conflict erupts in this region of space either the Ultramarines of one of their many Guard Regiments will be funneled in to return order.

It is also obvious to me that the astronomican is relatively pointed toward the galactic east in order to maintain with most of the Imperium. You can still see the Astronomicon from other directions, but it is positioned to illuminate the majority of human controlled worlds. It would be a waste to illuminate the Eye of Terror for example.I'm surprised that the Ultramarine slogan isn't "First Among Equals".

LuckyKa
20-09-2009, 19:04
This brings up a question i've always pondered over, the Imperium obviously lacks proper Galaxy wide communication ( except from Psykers ). So just how are a group of few High lords of Terra expected to be able to control so many Wars fought on so many fronts?

How would a Company of Ultramarines know that the Cadian system is being besieged?
Etc etc, it always has seen to be a little bit coincidental for me that for such a vast Galaxy there is no real form of communication yet command and control of Billions of Soldiers, Thousands of ships seems just so easy.

( This could also lead on to questions such as how is the Military war machine funded/projects ran/requisitions ordered and delivered)

I think i read once some planets won't see an Imperial or even Rouge ship for 2000 years! ( i can't source a citation ) and this just strikes me as Obsurd.

Argastes
20-09-2009, 19:43
This brings up a question i've always pondered over, the Imperium obviously lacks proper Galaxy wide communication ( except from Psykers ). So just how are a group of few High lords of Terra expected to be able to control so many Wars fought on so many fronts?

How would a Company of Ultramarines know that the Cadian system is being besieged?
Etc etc, it always has seen to be a little bit coincidental for me that for such a vast Galaxy there is no real form of communication yet command and control of Billions of Soldiers, Thousands of ships seems just so easy.

Astropathy (telepathy over interstellar distances by a certain class of psykers) is how interstellar communications works in the Imperium. What do you mean "no real form of communication"? Astropathy is very real, and since you yourself mention it (when you say "except for psykers"), you apparently know about it. Why do you first acknowledge the existence of astropathy, then later claim that the Imperium has no real form of interstellar communications?

And how would, say, a company of Space Marines know that Cadia is under attack? Because when Cadia (or another planet) came under attack, astropathic requests for aid would be sent out to all nearby military forces, etc., that might be capable of providing that aid. This would presumably include nearby SM chapters, and once the chapter received such a request (SM chapters have their own astropaths), the chapter master would decide whether to respond to it, and which of his companies (if any) to send.

Think of astropaths as two-way radio telephones. Imperial planets, capital ships, large military units, etc. all have astropaths. They use them to send messages back and forth to each other. In concept, it's that simple, and it does adequately explain how the Imperium manages to maintain some sort of communication within itself.

All that said, command and control of thousands of ships and billions of soldiers ISN'T easy, and as far as I know, the fluff never says it is. In fact it is explicitly stated to be just the opposite. Interstellar communication via astropathy is far from perfect. It's non-instantaneous, limited in range, and the messages can be lost or distorted while in transit. This means that Imperial decision-making is often very slow (as in operating on a multi-year, multi-decade or even multi-generational timescale), inefficient, and prone to error. And the fluff tells us all this. Armies and fleets may be dispatched too late, or sent to the wrong place, or not sent at all when needed. Imperial planets may be attacked and the Imperial authorities may not find out until after it's all over and it's too late to do anything. Coordinating interstellar military action in 40K is NOT easy, it's quite hard.


( This could also lead on to questions such as how is the Military war machine funded/projects ran/requisitions ordered and delivered)

In terms of manpower, the Imperial war machine is supplied by each Imperial planet's periodic tithe of fighting men. In terms of material, it's supplied by the Forge Worlds, which are run by the Adeptus Mechanicus and provide weapons, vehicles, etc. as part of a reciprocal agreement with the rest of the Imperium (i.e., they provide the guns, and they get various things back in return).


I think i read once some planets won't see an Imperial or even Rouge ship for 2000 years! ( i can't source a citation ) and this just strikes me as Obsurd.

I don't remember ever hearing that; I think you may be misremembering it. If you can't find a citation, there's no way to be sure. Certainly some backwater planets might go years or perhaps even decades (or several generations in extreme cases) without being visited by an Imperial ship, but for an Imperial planet to go for millennia without such a visit would require unusual circumstances such as long-term isolation due to warp storms.

If nothing else, almost all Imperial planets are going to see an Imperial ship at regular (if widely spaced) intervals, because they have to pay a periodic tithe in manpower and sometimes goods/money/materials, so a ship will be coming around to collect that. Also there are the Adeptus Astra Telepathica's Black Ships, which periodically stop at each Imperial planet (any given planet can usually expect about to be visited once every hundred years or so) and pick up the levy of psykers that each planetary governor is required to draw from his planet's population when the Black Ship comes. So again, under normal circumstances, Imperial planets can expect to be visited by Imperial ships with some regularity. It may not happen often but it should happen regularly.

LuckyKa
20-09-2009, 19:53
Ahh, i think there was a slight misunderstanding in how i wrote and asked my question, but you answered all my points in a way that answered even my replies. Heh.

I think it may have been in an Inquistion or Dark Heresy forum, so i'll simply call my 2000 year time line a fanfic.

But thanks none the less :)

Lord Cook
20-09-2009, 21:40
I think i read once some planets won't see an Imperial or even Rouge ship for 2000 years! ( i can't source a citation ) and this just strikes me as absurd.

Relentless by Richard Williams goes into detail about the relationships between Imperial warships and planets. Whenever the cruiser Relentless arrives at an Imperial planet, it is often the first 'official' contact that planet has had with properly sanctioned Imperial representatives in decades. On the planet Pontus for example, there is an elaborate ceremony in which the Imperial Governor pledges his symbolic loyalty to the representative of Terra, in this case the captain of the Relentless. It's stated (at least in this example) that while private trade is common, it's extremely rare to actually be visited by the Imperial Navy. The Imperial presence on Pontus (the Adeptus Arbites) are a permanent, self-contained force.

That said, it's clear that some worlds will have very frequent contact with the Imperium. A fleet base like Hydraphur probably can't go a single day without playing host to the comings and goings of official Imperial ships and personnel. It would depend on the importance of the world.


It's also 'rogue' by the way. 'Rouge' is a colour. ;)

gunners
21-09-2009, 08:47
I think you could say that a vast amount of time goes in "pawns of Chaos" between vivisting Imperial ships... But 2000 years, that inhabitans only have vague mythical ideas of the Empire so lets at least say several generations...
But again that is mainly due to warpstorms. If a planet have anything to contribute to the empire with, my guess would be that they fairly often get to see a spaceship be that imperial trader, black ship or "tithe" ship.

Gazak Blacktoof
21-09-2009, 09:51
War, warp storms and poor record keeping can all result in systems or larger volumes losing contact with imperial officials.

After a large naval engagement there may not be sufficient fleet power to maintain contact and ensure tithes are collected. It could be that a waaagh, hive fleet or expanding xenos empire provides a physical barrier. The destruction of an administrative centre could easily result in a system "falling off the map".